"Asian?"

[Korean Hunk]

I noticed that when I contact Asian Student Associations I notice that some include Asian Indians as members and others don't by having Asian Pacific Student Associations.

What are your opinions on Asian Indians?

Personally, I don't feel the same bond as with Pacific Asians and Hot White Blonde girls as I do with Asian Indians.

There are some similarities but not enough that I can commisserate with their issues and likes and dislikes.

[yoMAMA]

I feel alot of bond with hot Indian girls, that's for sure.

:D

[SunWuKong]

i feel i have about as much cultural similarities to indians and other south asians as i do with europeans - which is next to zero. but i love indian food and when a south asian girl is good looking, she's REALLY good looking. one of the hottest girls i've ever met in my life was a dark-skinned mixed filipino/indian girl.

[Korean Hunk]

The combination that Asian Indians have is pretty exotic.

Still not as hot as moi but close.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Korean Hunk@Mar 4 2003, 10:03 AM
The combination that Asian Indians have is pretty exotic.

Still not as hot as moi but close.
you look like an indian?

[Korean Hunk]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Mar 4 2003, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Korean Hunk@Mar 4 2003, 10:03 AM
The combination that Asian Indians have is pretty exotic.

Still not as hot as moi but close.
you look like an indian?
Are you coming on to me?

No, I said Indians look exotic because of the white mix. You see hazel eyes with dark skin and hair.

But I am still much better looking...true dat! though I am not as exotic as Indians. Maybe I should color my hair and wear fake contacts!

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Korean Hunk@Mar 4 2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Mar 4 2003, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Korean Hunk@Mar 4 2003, 10:03 AM
The combination that Asian Indians have is pretty exotic.

Still not as hot as moi but close.
you look like an indian?
Are you coming on to me?

No, I said Indians look exotic because of the white mix. You see hazel eyes with dark skin and hair.

But I am still much better looking...true dat! though I am not as exotic as Indians. Maybe I should color my hair and wear fake contacts!
you want to look like an indian?

[Korean Hunk]

No

[kitty]

Originally posted by Korean Hunk@Mar 4 2003, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Mar 4 2003, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Korean Hunk@Mar 4 2003, 10:03 AM
The combination that Asian Indians have is pretty exotic.

Still not as hot as moi but close.
you look like an indian?
Are you coming on to me?

No, I said Indians look exotic because of the white mix. You see hazel eyes with dark skin and hair.

But I am still much better looking...true dat! though I am not as exotic as Indians. Maybe I should color my hair and wear fake contacts!
What in <insert holy deity>'s name are you talking about here?

I think Asian Indians don't feel a kinship to APAs because there's been a lack of outreach, and a very different history with forced similarities (immigration, indentured labour, etc)... but mostly ppl assume there's a connection because of geographical proximity. Personally, I feel Asian Indians should become a separate group to recognize the differences between the cultures and experiences of Asian Indians and other Asians.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Originally posted by yoMAMA@Mar 4 2003, 06:51 AM
I feel alot of bond with hot Indian girls, that's for sure.

:D
Ditto. I feel strong bonds towards anybody who is hot.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Indian people love me. But, we're not really anything alike. Too bad.

[achtungbaby]

I get email all the time from Asian Indians (and South Asians too) who complain that East Asian organizations are the gatekeepers to "Asian advocacy"...

[kasia]

Originally posted by Korean Hunk@Mar 4 2003, 06:50 AM
I noticed that when I contact Asian Student Associations I notice that some include Asian Indians as members and others don't by having Asian Pacific Student Associations.
asian indians are not excluded from the "asian/pacific islander" category. they fit under the "asian" part. asian indians are asian. or isn't that true?

what is the difference between south asian and asian indian? maybe i'm confusing groups.

[kitty]

Asian Indians are people from India... which I don't think is the same as Southeast Asian (which I'm not too clear on the definition on)

[deez nuts]

<hands kittygirl some gatorade> round two!

[kasia]

Originally posted by kittygirl@Mar 4 2003, 01:34 PM
Asian Indians are people from India... which I don't think is the same as Southeast Asian (which I'm not too clear on the definition on)
i think they're typically referred to as "south asians". not southeast asians.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Mar 4 2003, 01:36 PM
<hands kittygirl some gatorade> round two!
No!! Rudy was peeing in that!

http://forums.yellowworld.org/uploads/av-41.jpg

[kitty]

Originally posted by kasia@Mar 4 2003, 09:38 PM
i think they're typically referred to as "south asians". not southeast asians.
*confused*.... I dunno...

I've been calling people from India "Asian Indians" b/c that's what I think they're called in Takaki and Chen...

Southeast Asians, I think, are the ppl from South Asia, like the Phillipines and Malaysia... but like I said, I don't really know what's considered South vs. Southeast Asian...

[kasia]

Originally posted by kittygirl@Mar 4 2003, 01:47 PM
*confused*.... I dunno...

I've been calling people from India "Asian Indians" b/c that's what I think they're called in Takaki and Chen...

Southeast Asians, I think, are the ppl from South Asia, like the Phillipines and Malaysia... but like I said, I don't really know what's considered South vs. Southeast Asian...
hm...

south asians are from south asia and southeast asians are from southeast asia.

[kitty]

that makes sense... I just don't know what constitutes south asia vs. southeast asia.... (like is there a solid line that's been arbitrarily drawn through asia?)

[kangal]

Originally posted by kittygirl@Mar 4 2003, 03:53 PM
that makes sense... I just don't know what constitutes south asia vs. southeast asia.... (like is there a solid line that's been arbitrarily drawn through asia?)
if we're going go to into ethnicity-wise....there are three main branches of homo-sapiens....mongoloids, aryans, and negroids....indians are technically aryan whereas APs are mongoloids...

[nonamerasian]

Lately I’ve heard more and more advocacy for people of East Asian descent and those of South Asian descent to come together under the “Asian-American” umbrella, being that more political clout comes in numbers.

Does it really make sense for all involved?

People like to use the example of Black political groups and whatnot when discussing this matter, so I’ll go on with that theme.

Many African-Americans oppose Afro-Caribbeanites and Blacks from Africa calling themselves any other ethnicity other than African-American. I’ve even witnessed people berate Black Hispanics for not considering themselves African-American. For me, that’s kind of waving one’s finger at an Irish guy for not calling himself Scottish, but anyhoo. . .

If you look at Black/African-American advocacy groups, rarely will you hear them address the concerns of non-African-Americans, unless it’s a concern that the Black groups share together.

That’s kind of what happens when there is a majority in the supposedly monolithic group.

I don’t have stats on this, but my guess is that East Asians clearly out number non-East Asians in the monolithic “Asian-American” political group. Will the concerns of non-East Asians not be clouded over in this political group?

I’ve heard people of East Asian descent proclaim that they don’t even consider most South Asians “really Asian.” How widespread is this mindset?

Although I’ve never heard my East Asian friends say that they don’t consider South Asians “really Asian,” when they are counting how many Asians there were in a specific place, they aren’t counting Ali, Harish, Suresh, Sunit, and Mohammed. If I talk about an Asian, they may ask whether I’m referring to someone Korean, Chinese or some other Asian groups, but they most probably wouldn’t mention the phenotypically different Bangladeshi on their list.

While I have heard many South Asians say that they are Asian, if I had a South Asian identity, I’d be particularly troubled of being considered a part of a group which seems to only want to consider me one of them when it politically conveniences them.

After all, it doesn’t seem the two groups are completely considered as one in the social sense. When someone says “Asian,” most people still think “East Asian.”

I’ve rarely met a non-West Indian able to point out a West Indian who doesn’t have a West Indian accent or waving their country’s flag. If a guy of recent Nigerian descent is about to get beaten by a mob for being Black, so may an African-American by the same mob for the same reason.

At least when it comes to the Black/African-American groups, generally phenotype is a strong incentive to bond. At least when it concerns issues based on race (opposed to culture), that’s the common bond.

It’s also probably the reason I’ve never heard a Korean say, “Chinese aren’t really Asian,” or likewise.

What about in your case where there is a racial difference between South and East Asians (phenotype)? What is the incentive for a group that doesn’t have such a bond to consider themselves a part of the “Asian-American” political group?

While I agree there is strength in numbers, will it mean that South Asians will play pawn to the socio-political interests of the East Asian majority? Will the East Asian majority feel obligated to address the concerns that specifically target South Asians?

[LCY]

A lot of good points to ponder. It does seem like South (and Southeast) Asians get marginalized in API organizations except when they're needed for political clout. It may be because they are outnumbered by East Asians in the U.S. (Anyone have numbers?). I myself consider South Asians as part of the API umbrella since we do share common issues such as immigration, hate crimes, etc, but perhaps API orgs could be more sensitive to the needs of South Asians.

[DragonKnight]

They're Asian to me.

[Xanadu]

<!--QuoteBegin-kittygirl+Mar 4 2003, 01:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kittygirl @ Mar 4 2003, 01:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> that makes sense... I just don't know what constitutes south asia vs. southeast asia.... (like is there a solid line that's been arbitrarily drawn through asia?) [/b][/quote]
Yes, it's arbitrary as it often is in geopolitical categorizations... but, as far as the answer to your question about who constitute Southeast Asians is concerned, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Laotians, Burmese, and Thais are grouped as SE Asians. But, Indians, Pakistanis, and Sri Lankans are grouped as S Asians. Hope this helps. :)

[RasFarengi]

Sees to be a lot of confusion over geography...according to my knowledge of geography...please correct me if I am wrong

South Asia typically refers to the Indian Subcontinent, which makes up:

India, Pakistan, Bangladesh...not sure about Nepal or Bhutan*. I guess they are in there too, although they are in the mountains between China and India.

South East Asia


Rougly the area South of China and West of New Guinea and North and East of Bangladesh.

So that would include

Vietnam, Cambodia, Myanmar (Burma), Laos, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, Brunai, Singapore, I think that is about it.

East Asia

China (Taiwan may or not be included depending on what you think), Japan, South Korea, North Korea, Mongolia. I don’t know how Russian Siberia fits into this, but that area is not considered part of Europe, nothing past the Ural Mountains is considered Europe, so it has to be Asia.

Central Asia

Afghanistan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Armenia, Iran (depends on who you ask, but many don’t consider Iran a Middle Eastern country), Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and all those other damn ‘stans countries that were part of the Soviet Union, that are South of Russia and West of China.

West Asia If I am not mistaken, people in the UK refer to the Middle East as West Asia, but we don’t in America, so I won’t go into that.


Pacific Islands

Typically this starts from New Guinea and goes West to North/South America, including Hawaii, Easter Island and all those countries scattered in between...I won't even start to name though, you all get the picture I am sure.

[Faithless]

<!--QuoteBegin-DragonKnight+Aug 8 2003, 08:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DragonKnight @ Aug 8 2003, 08:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> They're Asian to me. [/b][/quote]
Asian Indians seem more middle eastern in appearance than Asian like Chinese and Japanese and what have you.

[RasFarengi]

Why can't you guys divide it up by something better than a continent.

Asia is huge and stretches from Iran to Indonesia...and in that area their are different races of people.

East and South East Asian are mainly Mongoloid, there are also Negritos (Melanesians, a few scattered groups).

Most South Asians are Dravidians or Caucasian, but in areas like Nepal and Bhutan you have people that look in-between.

Strictly speaking geographically all the groups above are "Asian..."

but I guess for purposes of political unity some of you are saying well they have a vastly different culture, or they don't look like us so they have different issues than us...okay...so instead of saying "Asian Empowerment" change it to

"Mongoloid" empowerment, because I think that is what some of you mean :D ...or East/South East Asian empowerment...

It’s funny in the UK they call East/South East Asians Orientals, Asians are considered what we call South Asians. They also sometimes call Middle Eastern people West Asians…I guess it is subjective.

[Eros]

It's all is kind of a mess. Generally, when I say Asian I mean India to Japan but don't usually mean Middle Eastern since I am used to saying Middle Eastern. India, when you look at it, is a mixture of the middle east and the more eastern Asia. Looks wise, they are slightly more Middle Eastern but pretty mixed. Culture wise, they are more east/south east Asian since they influenced the southeastern (and to some degree, the eastern) Asians. Of course, they also have a culture unique to them since it's a pretty old culture in itself. Pakistan seems to be the real wild card for me since I usually considered it the Middle East even though the people are more Indian than most Middle Eastern countries. Even the middle East distiction is some what blurred since one of peoples from there are technically Caucasian (since they came from the other side of the caucaus mountains). Plus, Turkey is a good combination of Middle Eastern and European.

I kind of miss the word Oriental since I always used to use that when I wanted to talk about countries that are in eastern and south eastern Asia. That was a great way to divide up Asia... and Middle east, the Indian subcontinent, and the Orient. Ah well...

As for having things in common with Indians, my Chinese side has about as much in common with them as it does with Pacific Islanders (especially the ones further into the Pacific ocean) so API should includes India. And, technically, people from the Middle East.

Now... if I was part of an API group and we had pot lucks, of course Indians and Middle Easterns would be invited. They have such great food! :P

Odd side question. If there are three divisions of Homo Sapiens, what are Native Americans and Latin Americans? Mongloids?

[nonamerasian]

<!--QuoteBegin-Eros+Aug 9 2003, 02:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Eros @ Aug 9 2003, 02:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> . . .I kind of miss the word Oriental since I always used to use that when I wanted to talk about countries that are in eastern and south eastern Asia.&nbsp; That was a great way to divide up Asia... and Middle east, the Indian subcontinent, and the Orient.&nbsp; Ah well. . .

. . .there are technically Caucasian (since they came from the other side of the caucaus mountains). . .

. . .Odd side question.&nbsp; If there are three divisions of Homo Sapiens, what are Native Americans and Latin Americans?&nbsp; Mongloids? [/b][/quote]
While I'll continue to respect the wishes of those offended by the term "Oriental" and not refer to them as such, I've got to say that I think the word is pretty useful as well.

The Caucasians originating in the Caucasus Mountains theory from which the term "Caucasian" has derived has been debunked.

There isn't one classification of the races system. However, in the three-tier system, I believe Native Americans were in the Mongoloid group.

Since Latin Americans come in many different races, they weren't classified as one race.

In the three-tier system, people didn't quite know where to put the Aborigines of Australia, Melanesians, Micronesians, or Polynesians.

[DragonKnight]

<!--QuoteBegin-ChottoMatte+Aug 8 2003, 10:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ChottoMatte @ Aug 8 2003, 10:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Asian Indians seem more middle eastern in appearance than Asian like Chinese and Japanese and what have you. [/b][/quote]
So? Ya'll have curry from India, spices from India, and even religion from India. There's a lot of cultural exchange between India and China. When I was a president of the API club in Foothill College, I highly encouraged Indians to be a part of API. Hell, my Vice-Chair was Indian. Go figure.

[Eros]

<!--QuoteBegin-nonamerasian+Aug 9 2003, 01:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nonamerasian @ Aug 9 2003, 01:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> While I'll continue to respect the wishes of those offended by the term "Oriental" and not refer to them as such, I've got to say that I think the word is pretty useful as well.

[/b][/quote]
Same. Because so many people talked out against my usage of it, I stopped using it. Meh.. maybe some day we'll "take back the word."

<!--QuoteBegin-DragonKnight+ Aug 9 2003, 02:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DragonKnight @ Aug 9 2003, 02:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So? Ya'll have curry from India, spices from India, and even religion from India. There's a lot of cultural exchange between India and China. When I was a president of the API club in Foothill College, I highly encouraged Indians to be a part of API. Hell, my Vice-Chair was Indian. Go figure. [/b][/quote]

Yup. India has had a huge influence on ithe eastern/southeastern Asians. Buddhism strongest arguement. Plus, and Hanuman legend in one (some?) of India's neighbors. Let's not forget that trade routes that went across India and into Asia, that influenced a lot of cultural things.

Plus, I'd think that Indians in non-asian countries would probably face a lot of the issues that other Asians would so it makes sense to include them.

[nonamerasian]

Would Indo-West Indian-Americans fit under the political umbrella?

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-RasFarengi+Aug 8 2003, 09:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RasFarengi @ Aug 8 2003, 09:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It’s funny in the UK they call East/South East Asians Orientals, Asians are considered what we call South Asians. They also sometimes call Middle Eastern people West Asians…I guess it is subjective. [/b][/quote]
Thats exactly why I never understood why East Asians in the US insist on monopolizing the term Asian. In general, the people I interact with find it fairly arrogant.

BTW not all south asians are Aryan. North Indians are generally Aryan and South Indians refer to themselves as Dravidian.

And whereas Buddhism clearly has its roots in India, you will be hard-pressed to find a large population that continues to practice it there.

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-nonamerasian+Aug 8 2003, 07:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nonamerasian @ Aug 8 2003, 07:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What is the incentive for a group that doesn’t have such a bond to consider themselves a part of the “Asian-American” political group?
[/b][/quote]
I don't know, which is why I pose the question in the topic "Do we need Asian American Advocacy?"

I find "Asian-American" disingenuous because it implies comprehensive Asia in scope, which this thread makes me feel is not true.

[nonamerasian]

Perhaps there is a need for Asian-American advocacy, but it’s still a rather precarious situation.

As I said before, if I were South Asian, I wouldn’t want to play pawn, however, is that what is happening?

If so, what is South Asian-American advocates to do?

If Asian-American “solidarity” isn’t working in the best interest of South Asians, is there enough unity amongst South Asians themselves to break away and advocate their own issues? And if so, would there be enough people to give the voice of South Asian advocacy some clout?

Or. . .

Would it be easier to create a true pan-Asian-American identity? To get South Asians who want unity to get more East Asians to acknowledge, “Yes, we are ‘really Asian!,’” and to get more Asian-American advocacy groups to better address the concerns of South Asians.

[achtungbaby]

<!--QuoteBegin-azizgilani+Aug 9 2003, 03:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 9 2003, 03:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Thats exactly why I never understood why East Asians in the US insist on monopolizing the term Asian. In general, the people I interact with find it fairly arrogant. [/b][/quote]
In terms of Asian American advocacy, I would tend to agree that east Asians feel like they have some right to the "leaders of AA advocacy" mantle. It's certainly not something I adhere to.

[achtungbaby]

<!--QuoteBegin-nonamerasian+Aug 10 2003, 10:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nonamerasian @ Aug 10 2003, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Would it be easier to create a true pan-Asian-American identity? To get South Asians who want unity to get more East Asians to acknowledge, “Yes, we are ‘really Asian!,’” and to get more Asian-American advocacy groups to better address the concerns of South Asians. [/b][/quote]
I don't see anything wrong with this. Get those backward-ass east Asians up to speed with the 21st century.

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-nonamerasian+Aug 10 2003, 09:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (nonamerasian @ Aug 10 2003, 09:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If Asian-American “solidarity” isn’t working in the best interest of South Asians, is there enough unity amongst South Asians themselves to break away and advocate their own issues? And if so, would there be enough people to give the voice of South Asian advocacy some clout? [/b][/quote]
I think this already goes on, and perhaps to a greater degree than most non-SouthAsians realize.

Specifically Indian groups have proven to be remarkably effective at using the system to get policy issues discussed and succeed. Today ther are over 155 Congressional members of the Indian Caucus in Washington.

Pakistani Groups, egged on by Indian Success, have their own caucuses (only 24 reps though) and lobbying efforts.

However, these groups tend to be more focused on the homeland than the experience in this country.

Ground level advocacy is more often carried out by religious themed groups, like CAIR and MPAC for Muslims. I don't know what the Hindu and Sikh equivalents would be. After September 11, MPAC hosted several dialogue sessions with Christian groups in my local community that I participated in. This is in additon to standard goody stuff like working in soup kitchens and helping the homeless etc.

Arab groups like AAI and ACC also figure in the mix.

If you go to Cair-net.org you can see a lot of civil rights, workplace equity, criminal enforcement related actions and success stories.

Recently Sikh groups have been working with Muslim groups to fight post-9/11 discrimination. Lots of statements of solidarity, and some joint pa campaigns.

So a lot of religious/national themed stuff from South and West Asia, but not a lot of "South Asian" stuff. Given the history though, I don't think "South Asian" advocacy would make a lot of sense. see http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?sh...pic=10245&st=15 (http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?showtopic=10245&st=15) for more on that...

[kimpossible]

What exactly are the South Asian groups? The only one I normally think of is Indian and I suppose Pakistani. But most of the Asian maps I've read and the terms I know in Chinese and Japanese for areas like this are Middle East. Or did I get that wrong?

Another question: do South Asians even wish to be grouped with East Asians?

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-Hello_Hapa+Aug 11 2003, 09:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hello_Hapa @ Aug 11 2003, 09:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What exactly are the South Asian groups? The only one I normally think of is Indian and I suppose Pakistani. But most of the Asian maps I've read and the terms I know in Chinese and Japanese for areas like this are Middle East. Or did I get that wrong? [/b][/quote]
OK, pull out a map and follow along.

The center of Asia is made up by the Central Asian Republics. This includes the "stans" of Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, etc

South of the CARs is South Asia. This is Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka

East of the CARs is East Asia. This is China, Korea, Japan etc

West of the CARs is West Asia. This includes Iraq, Syria etc.

West Asia is roughly equivalent to the Middle East, but not exactly. Egypt is in the Middle East, but not West Asia.

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-Hello_Hapa+Aug 11 2003, 09:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hello_Hapa @ Aug 11 2003, 09:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> do South Asians even wish to be grouped with East Asians? [/b][/quote]
I don't see any call for that from the Muslim and South Asian groups I work with, nor do I see any real cooperation.

Having said that, I think its pretty arrogant for East Asians to monopolize the "Asian" mantle. See http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?sh...showtopic=10382 (http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?showtopic=10382) for more of my ideas....

[kimpossible]

<!--QuoteBegin-azizgilani+Aug 11 2003, 10:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 11 2003, 10:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> South of the CARs is South Asia. This is Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka

[/b][/quote]
Are these the only groups debated to be included in under the label Asian American then? Or are you (or whoever) saying the others too?

[thaite]

I love Indian food.

In one the professional organization that I run around, there have been some grumblings from the SA membership of a perceived monopolization by the East Asian. Granted, the organization is predominantly Chinese or other East Asian, and makes practical sense to address the needs of that membership, it comes across that the East Asian membership is running the show. To take care of their needs and representation, a lot of the SA have officially formed a sub-group that operates independantly, but maintains ties and cooperation with the main group. I'm considering joining them.

[SunWuKong]

azizgilani,

to tell you the truth, i have always felt that YW seriously lacks South Asian representatives. i'm not surprised though, because of the "yellow" in "yellowworld.org". (although i like the name, i didn't pick it! *points to achtungbaby* he did it.)

anyway, if you have a little time, i would love for you to contribute to the Diaspora (http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?showforum=59) forum for South Asian history. start some threads. personally i have always been interested in the relationship between India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. i've never got around to reading about it though.

[etcj]

The struggle for inclusion of South Asians into "Asian" has been a long, hard battle. It is really all about politics and it's not just East Asians who might have a problem with definitions. Be aware that inclusion of different ethnicities into Asian creates stronger political force - something that politicians and government bodies need to deal with. Fear of the potential increase in political power, certain people have advocated against inclusion of people, such as South Asian and West Asians.

FYI, there is a movement for greater inclusion of West Asians, which is something not usually thought. West Asia is within the disputed areas between southern Asia and the Middle East. Great inclusion of these people have the potential of dramatically influencing interpretations of demographic data. Look for that to come up as an issue in 2010!

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-SunWuKung+Aug 11 2003, 11:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Aug 11 2003, 11:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i have always been interested in the relationship between India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. i've never got around to reading about it though. [/b][/quote]
See the posts located at:
http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?sh...pic=10245&st=15 (http://forums.yellowworld.org/index.php?showtopic=10245&st=15)

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-Hello_Hapa+Aug 11 2003, 10:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hello_Hapa @ Aug 11 2003, 10:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Are these the only groups debated to be included in under the label Asian American then? Or are you (or whoever) saying the others too? [/b][/quote]
How do I put this? - I apologize for the length and scope of this reply. I have said much of this before.

AAI is an Arab group, they call themselves Arab
CAIR is a Muslim group, they call themselves Muslim
TIE is an Indian group of Yuppies, they call themselves South Asian

It is a peculiarity of East Asian groups in the US to take on the "Asian" mantle. As a member of the other groups, I am not necessarily fighting for inclusion in Asian American groups, I am asking for an end in the false advertising.

To put it more bluntly.

Yellowworld.org is not Asian. It is East Asian. It does not reflect the full range of Asia. The only thing calling itself Asian achieves, is the inflation of the initial perception of its breadth by uninformed individuals.

I have recieved overtures from members of this forum to provide more South Asian insight on various issues, which I am more than happy to do. But at the end of the day, I have about as much in common with an East Asian as I do with an African or European.

Which is not to say that I don't like participating in the work that goes on here. I just want the overall context to be understood. I protest the comments of Howard Coble because they were wrong, not because I have ancestry on the same continent as internment victims.

I originally came to this forum because it carries a mantle that includes me in it. I stay here because I think I can clear up some mis-perceptions and offer some insight on topics.

Forums like this one offer value, and have a real need. It gives the East Asian community a commonplace to hash through issues that its members commonly face.

But the scope and breadth necessary to handle all of the issues that Asia has to offer? Thats a rough challenge. I am not entirely convinced that its even necessary.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

<!--QuoteBegin-etcj+Aug 11 2003, 03:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (etcj @ Aug 11 2003, 03:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Be aware that inclusion of different ethnicities into Asian creates stronger political force - something that politicians and government bodies need to deal with. Fear of the potential increase in political power, certain people have advocated against inclusion of people, such as South Asian and West Asians.

FYI, there is a movement for greater inclusion of West Asians, which is something not usually thought. West Asia is within the disputed areas between southern Asia and the Middle East. Great inclusion of these people have the potential of dramatically influencing interpretations of demographic data. Look for that to come up as an issue in 2010! [/b][/quote]
Yup, grab more numbers for your causes, even if they're causes the people being lumped into the category disagree with strongly. Hapas already know the deal ...

As for Indians, if I recall properly they lobbied to have themselves reclassified into the Asian category so they could get in on affirmative action in government contracting. Can't blame 'em, it was necessary in order to be able to compete with all the white guys from Spain who were eligible. (It was seen as less problematic than trying to create a new category and then get that new category confirmed as eligible for affirmative action.) Before that, they were classified as white, long before that, black. They got their contracts, and the AA political "leaders" got a shot in the arm to the tally of warm bodies whom they could claim to represent.

[kimpossible]

<!--QuoteBegin-azizgilani+Aug 11 2003, 04:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 11 2003, 04:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How do I put this? - I apologize for the length and scope of this reply. I have said much of this before.

AAI is an Arab group, they call themselves Arab
CAIR is a Muslim group, they call themselves Muslim
TIE is an Indian group of Yuppies, they call themselves South Asian

It is a peculiarity of East Asian groups in the US to take on the "Asian" mantle. As a member of the other groups, I am not necessarily fighting for inclusion in Asian American groups, I am asking for an end in the false advertising.

To put it more bluntly.

Yellowworld.org is not Asian. It is East Asian. It does not reflect the full range of Asia. The only thing calling itself Asian achieves, is the inflation of the initial perception of its breadth by uninformed individuals.

I have recieved overtures from members of this forum to provide more South Asian insight on various issues, which I am more than happy to do. But at the end of the day, I have about as much in common with an East Asian as I do with an African or European.

Which is not to say that I don't like participating in the work that goes on here. I just want the overall context to be understood. I protest the comments of Howard Coble because they were wrong, not because I have ancestry on the same continent as internment victims.

I originally came to this forum because it carries a mantle that includes me in it. I stay here because I think I can clear up some mis-perceptions and offer some insight on topics.

Forums like this one offer value, and have a real need. It gives the East Asian community a commonplace to hash through issues that its members commonly face.

But the scope and breadth necessary to handle all of the issues that Asia has to offer? Thats a rough challenge. I am not entirely convinced that its even necessary. [/b][/quote]
Don't worry about overexplaining. I'm asking out of ignorance so you do have to explain it like you would to a five year old. I've never heard of a concern like this over the term Asian American. New subject to me.

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-AliBabaIncorporated+Aug 11 2003, 05:34 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Aug 11 2003, 05:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As for Indians, if I recall properly they lobbied to have themselves reclassified into the Asian category so they could get in on affirmative action in government contracting. [/b][/quote]
I did a quick check of some records databases, and saw no evidence of the movement you describe. Can you point me to a few links?

Growing up all over the US, I had an interesting time picking my race on forms. In Louisiana the choices were only White or Black. The teacher let the class decide (I was white). I have seen some forms that offer White/Black/Hispanic/Oriental which would explain what Alibaba is talking about.

In Highschool in Houston I attended a camp run by the NCCJ called "Anytown" They put all ethnic groups in close quarters for a week of real world diversity learning. It was a very eye opening experience for me. Ever since then I have put down "Other--->Human" on forms like that.

[etcj]

<!--QuoteBegin-azizgilani+Aug 11 2003, 07:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 11 2003, 07:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is a peculiarity of East Asian groups in the US to take on the "Asian" mantle. As a member of the other groups, I am not necessarily fighting for inclusion in Asian American groups, I am asking for an end in the false advertising.

To put it more bluntly.

Yellowworld.org is not Asian. It is East Asian. It does not reflect the full range of Asia. The only thing calling itself Asian achieves, is the inflation of the initial perception of its breadth by uninformed individuals.

I have recieved overtures from members of this forum to provide more South Asian insight on various issues, which I am more than happy to do. But at the end of the day, I have about as much in common with an East Asian as I do with an African or European.

Which is not to say that I don't like participating in the work that goes on here. I just want the overall context to be understood. I protest the comments of Howard Coble because they were wrong, not because I have ancestry on the same continent as internment victims.

I originally came to this forum because it carries a mantle that includes me in it. I stay here because I think I can clear up some mis-perceptions and offer some insight on topics.

Forums like this one offer value, and have a real need. It gives the East Asian community a commonplace to hash through issues that its members commonly face.

But the scope and breadth necessary to handle all of the issues that Asia has to offer? Thats a rough challenge. I am not entirely convinced that its even necessary.[/b][/quote]
Wow, that was a rant...

Well I understand what you're saying and it seems like other YW are being as supportive and empathetic so far. I'm sure it's just an adjustment period before we see more posts from you. I guess if things don't work, we might be able to see a similar site designed specifically for South Asians? (Hey, I'm not being sarcastic at all, it would actually be a great idea/resource.)

In my experience, working in a coalition-style unity on various public health issues has certainly brought up questions about inclusion. In the case of South Asians, we have had little or no problems in discussing that issue with younger Asians and Pacific Islanders. However, I do understand that there still are prejudices and biases against South Asians held by some East Asians and society at large. However, you must admit that discrimination and persecution of South Asians have increased dramatically after 9/11. The perception of that same inclusion issue has now been intertwine with nationalism and patriotism. In my opinion, this problem is one reason why inclusion is sometimes muddled by ideology and politics and not based on entirely sincere intentions.

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-etcj+Aug 11 2003, 07:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (etcj @ Aug 11 2003, 07:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I guess if things don't work, we might be able to see a similar site designed specifically for South Asians? (Hey, I'm not being sarcastic at all, it would actually be a great idea/resource.)

In my experience, working in a coalition-style unity on various public health issues has certainly brought up questions about inclusion. In the case of South Asians, we have had little or no problems in discussing that issue with younger Asians and Pacific Islanders. However, I do understand that there still are prejudices and biases against South Asians held by some East Asians and society at large. However, you must admit that discrimination and persecution of South Asians have increased dramatically after 9/11. The perception of that same inclusion issue has now been intertwine with nationalism and patriotism. In my opinion, this problem is one reason why inclusion is sometimes muddled by ideology and politics and not based on entirely sincere intentions. [/b][/quote]
I guess if things don't work, we might be able to see a similar site designed specifically for South Asians? (Hey, I'm not being sarcastic at all, it would actually be a great idea/resource.)

I am a member of more than a few. They are great and serve a wonderful purpose, not unlike what these forums serve for East Asians.

The perception of that same inclusion issue has now been intertwine with nationalism and patriotism. In my opinion, this problem is one reason why inclusion is sometimes muddled by ideology and politics and not based on entirely sincere intentions.

Can you expand a bit more on this idea. I don't quite understand it yet.

[etcj]

<!--QuoteBegin-azizgilani+Aug 11 2003, 10:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 11 2003, 10:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-etcj+Aug 11 2003, 07:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (etcj @ Aug 11 2003, 07:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The perception of that same inclusion issue has now been intertwine with nationalism and patriotism. In my opinion, this problem is one reason why inclusion is sometimes muddled by ideology and politics and not based on entirely sincere intentions. [/b][/quote]
Can you expand a bit more on this idea. I don't quite understand it yet.[/b][/quote]
I was referring to AliBabaIncorporated's statement about increasing your numbers for your causes. Sometimes inclusions are based on mere political motivations rather than pure sincerity. That sentiment seems to be the one that you're suggesting too.

I guess we can perhaps wrap this one up as:

Although there is no explicit message regarding South Asian representation and inclusion in the Yellowworld community, it is still acknowledged that they remain to be part of the Asian community whether that be in spirit of solidarity or politics. In anticipation of fears of tokenism or a disingenuous welcome, we can only demonstrate to you the spirit of community-building through the context and perspectives of our words.

Long story short, just keep coming back. :P

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-etcj+Aug 12 2003, 06:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (etcj @ Aug 12 2003, 06:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> short, just keep coming back.&nbsp; :P [/b][/quote]
Don't worry, I will.

You make a Pan-Asian coalition sound inevitable.

Why?

[etcj]

<!--QuoteBegin-azizgilani+Aug 12 2003, 09:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 12 2003, 09:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Don't worry, I will.

You make a Pan-Asian coalition sound inevitable.

Why? [/b][/quote]
No, I've already said that it's entirely possible as stated in my example with the work that I did in public health stuff. My skeptism, which I think you have too, is about political motivations in promoting inclusion.

To directly address your statement, I guess an online Pan-Asian coalition/community is possible. So who's ready to build it?

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-etcj+Aug 12 2003, 06:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (etcj @ Aug 12 2003, 06:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Although there is no explicit message regarding South Asian representation and inclusion in the Yellowworld community, it is still acknowledged that they remain to be part of the Asian community whether that be in spirit of solidarity or politics. [/b][/quote]
I don't like your assumption that the East-Asian community is THE Asian community.

This is my over-generalized timeline.

The East Asian community started calling itself Asian. So now it's everyone elses fault if we don't join your causes, institutions and advocacy.

East-Asians have the right to claim the Asian mantle and claims to Asian demographic numbers for their causes because they had the initiative to grab it first.

The fact that East-Asian claims to the "Asian" mantle automatically dillutes the power of non-East-Asian groups to represent their own people doesn't matter. Its their own fault fracturing a movement they were never part of.

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-etcj+Aug 12 2003, 07:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (etcj @ Aug 12 2003, 07:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> To directly address your statement, I guess an online Pan-Asian coalition/community is possible. So who's ready to build it? [/b][/quote]
Of course it is possible, creating a forum for black haired peoples of the world is possible.

Is it necessary?

[etcj]

<!--QuoteBegin-azizgilani+Aug 12 2003, 10:05 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 12 2003, 10:05 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't like your assumption that the East-Asian community is THE Asian community.[/b][/quote]
What the hell? I thought you were the one who started separating South Asians from Asians, whom you defined as being East-Asian. Hey, you're turning my message of solidarity into a challenge. Hopefully you can tell that I'm being supportive of you, so questioning my motives would be moot (yes, I know kinda sounds hostile). No one can agree to any strict definition of Asian. Neither you nor I can represent an entire community (inclusive of South Asians) to come up with any singular message. Albeit that your points are good, it's starting to get a bit too angsty (which is why it's in this forum). I, myself agree with some of the sentiments that you have said, so there is nothing more that can be done beyond reaching a common ground on this level of action/communication.

- Is it necessary? Of course not.
- Would we like to have a cohesive body of Asians and Pacific Islander to develop a strategic presence online and off? Of course.
- Can we simply remain within the boundaries that we set up? Of course, but what would be the fun in that? The experience of learning and communicating with each other across identities is what makes sites like these important (albeit unnecessary).

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-etcj+Aug 12 2003, 07:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (etcj @ Aug 12 2003, 07:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What the hell? I thought you were the one who started separating South Asians from Asians, whom you defined as being East-Asian.[/b][/quote]
I don't define East Asians as being "Asian" East Asians do. I was merely pointing it out, in the hope that the East Asians on this board would stop. So now this has gotten gotten confusing. Maybe some color...

East Asians define Asian as being East Asian

I point out how that definition ignores South Asians Central Asians and West Asians. In other words, the rest of Asia

I am not against the concept of Asian, just the term Asian. When advocating Asian issues you should refer to it by its rightful name, East Asian Otherwise, even though you are only referring to Asian, you end up referring to Asia wich includes South Asians Central Asians and West Asians.

If you want to use the term Asia you have to find common ground with South Asians Central Asians and West Asians. But I am not sure if that is possible. Some people assume that in the search of Asian we can start with the Assumption that we can get S/C/W Asians to just hop into Asian institutions. This ignores a fairly vibrant collection of South Asian Central Asian and West Asian Institutions that are just as developed as Asian ones.

Until a set of trully Asian ideas takes hold, stop saying Asian, and refer to East Asian. That goes for the people who run this forum. This forum should stop saying that it is about:

the cultivation of a social and political asian consciousness

and own up to the fact that it is really about

the cultivation of a social and political east asian consciousness

if it really was about asian it would call itself yellow. its just another case of east asians saying asian

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-etcj+Aug 12 2003, 07:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (etcj @ Aug 12 2003, 07:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - Would we like to have a cohesive body of Asians and Pacific Islander to develop a strategic presence online and off? Of course.
- Can we simply remain within the boundaries that we set up? Of course, but what would be the fun in that? The experience of learning and communicating with each other across identities is what makes sites like these important (albeit unnecessary). [/b][/quote]
In order to get Asians together you are going to need to develop a set of mutually exclusive yet comprehensive Asian American issues. I have tried asking what those are before, but the people on this board are so blinded by their SouthEast/East Asian point of view, they fail to understand the question.

Thats been my goal all along. To find out what issues are really relevent to the entire Asian community. Where does the common ground exist? Its too bad that I have to give geography lessons for people to understand it.

So thanks for your support, I think for the first time on this forum I am making real headway.

[tommyhtown]

<!--QuoteBegin-azizgilani+Aug 12 2003, 08:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 12 2003, 08:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-etcj+Aug 12 2003, 07:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (etcj @ Aug 12 2003, 07:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - Would we like to have a cohesive body of Asians and Pacific Islander to develop a strategic presence online and off? Of course.
- Can we simply remain within the boundaries that we set up? Of course, but what would be the fun in that? The experience of learning and communicating with each other across identities is what makes sites like these important (albeit unnecessary). [/b][/quote]
In order to get Asians together you are going to need to develop a set of mutually exclusive yet comprehensive Asian American issues. I have tried asking what those are before, but the people on this board are so blinded by their SouthEast/East Asian point of view, they fail to understand the question.

Thats been my goal all along. To find out what issues are really relevent to the entire Asian community. Where does the common ground exist? Its too bad that I have to give geography lessons for people to understand it.

So thanks for your support, I think for the first time on this forum I am making real headway. [/b][/quote]
I thought all you want is to have all 'Asian' org, groups, websites or whatever stop using the term 'Asian' in lieu of 'East Asian.'

[kimpossible]

<!--QuoteBegin-azizgilani+Aug 12 2003, 08:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 12 2003, 08:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Where does the common ground exist? Its too bad that I have to give geography lessons for people to understand it. [/b][/quote]
Hey, not winning friends with this comment. Many of us who do function in more than English and in the US as well as Asian countries don't understand the grouping of South Asians under the umbrella of Asian Americans. I get that you want to change that and I'm doing my best to understand the message but I've never personally run into a single South Asian that expressed this... mostly because I've always assumed they could be counted under the moniker Asian American - I didn't realize this was a problem.

In not realizing that this was a problem I didn't know where the magic boundary line of Asians ends. We were discussing broadening the term Asian American so that we all expect it to include South Asians as well, right? Well if I don't know and some other people don't know, we do need someone like you to lay it out. I thought you did a great job for not being able to use more than the posting functions available. You kept it succinct and use the color feature to good effect.

But if you're going to talk down to people like they should know all this when you know most don't you're going to turn people off from your message. Just some feedback, don't get pissed. I think you're educating quite a few people here.

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-tommyhtown+Aug 12 2003, 08:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tommyhtown @ Aug 12 2003, 08:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I thought all you want is to have all 'Asian' org, groups, websites or whatever stop using the term 'Asian' in lieu of 'East Asian.'[/b][/quote]
Step 1: Recognize Asian Advocacy is Southeast/East Asian Advocacy. Change the titles and the rhetoric to represent reality.

Step 2: Try to figure out if there really is a need for Asian Advocacy. When in college, I used to get overtures from east-asian groups all the time. The problem is that all of these invitations assume that joining forces means non East-Asians becoming members of East Asian institutions.

Step 3: If there is a real need for Asian Advocacy, lets make it happen as a collaboration of equals, if there isn't, lets still keep the lines of communication open. We can still collaborate on an ad-hoc basis on areas of mutual interest.

And Hello_Hapa is right, I am guilty of assuming we come from similar contexts of communication. I should be more understanding in the future. Thanks for pointing it out before I burned more bridges.

Oh yeah, I dropped the term "American" in the middle. Sorry bout that...

[AliBabaIncorporated]

<!--QuoteBegin-azizgilani+Aug 12 2003, 09:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 12 2003, 09:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you want to use the term Asia you have to find common ground with South Asians Central Asians and West Asians. But I am not sure if that is possible. Some people assume that in the search of Asian we can start with the Assumption that we can get S/C/W Asians to just hop into Asian institutions. This ignores a fairly vibrant collection of South Asian Central Asian and West Asian Institutions that are just as developed as Asian ones. [/b][/quote]
Well, we had a perfectly good enough word for it: oriental. (And for SE Asians, Indochinese, which hasn't fallen as far into disrepute). Still in use on the far side of the pond, as I understand it. Now that it's gone, people refuse to admit that we need a one-word replacement. If South Asians want their voices to be heard, hurry up and help us come up with better terms to distinguish the two of us, so your issues don't get buried under ours.

It's all about branding, and the present brand names suck ass. "East Asian" is never gonna gain popularity outside the blogosphere. Media would truncate it to "Asian" in no time because mostly everyone just thinks of "Asian" as being "Chinese people and anyone who looks like them." "CJKV" sounds ridiculous outside of technical circles discussing double-byte character systems. et cetera ...

[Faithless]

Is it possible to get the total Asian spectrum together? I think an implied point in this thread is that there seems to be some distinctly different sides -- in particular those that are considered Middle Eastern and those that are yellow (for lack of a better collective term).

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-AliBabaIncorporated+Aug 12 2003, 09:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Aug 12 2003, 09:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If South Asians want their voices to be heard, hurry up and help us come up with better terms to distinguish the two of us, so your issues don't get buried under ours.

It's all about branding, and the present brand names suck ass. "East Asian" is never gonna gain popularity outside the blogosphere. [/b][/quote]
I don't get it. Why does "South Asia" work and "East Asia" not?

[kasia]

<!--QuoteBegin-azizgilani+Aug 12 2003, 09:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 12 2003, 09:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Step 1: Recognize Asian Advocacy is Southeast/East Asian Advocacy. Change the titles and the rhetoric to represent reality.
[/b][/quote]
but it was just changed to include pacific islanders.

it's now 'APIA' - should it be modified again?

[SunWuKong]

<!--QuoteBegin-kasia+Aug 13 2003, 03:09 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (kasia @ Aug 13 2003, 03:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-azizgilani+Aug 12 2003, 09:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 12 2003, 09:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Step 1: Recognize Asian Advocacy is Southeast/East Asian Advocacy. Change the titles and the rhetoric to represent reality.
[/b][/quote]
but it was just changed to include pacific islanders.

it's now 'APIA' - should it be modified again? [/b][/quote]
i don't think it's the name per se that he has a problem with. it's the fact that East Asians use the label but many of the issues they deal with has nothing to do with South Asians.

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-SunWuKung+Aug 13 2003, 02:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Aug 13 2003, 02:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> i don't think it's the name per se that he has a problem with. it's the fact that East Asians use the label but many of the issues they deal with has nothing to do with South Asians. [/b][/quote]
or Central Asians or West Asians....

Does anyone disagree with changing the rhetoric? Is it going to change here, amongst the people who are reading this? Is this forum going to re-bill itself?

[>:^|]

Well, what would stop you from starting your own site and your own coalition? What's so great about us that you want us to become you? Seriously curious, not just being annoying on purpose. :dance:

And how do you know some of us aren't some of you and vice versa? Several of the "Asian" groups I've worked with had members who weren't those pesky, name-hogging "East Asians."

(Kasia--there is currently a movement to establish PI studies as separate from A Studies or A/PI studies. Just to add more confusion.)

[SunWuKong]

<!--QuoteBegin-azizgilani+Aug 13 2003, 09:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (azizgilani @ Aug 13 2003, 09:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> or Central Asians or West Asians....

Does anyone disagree with changing the rhetoric? Is it going to change here, amongst the people who are reading this? Is this forum going to re-bill itself? [/b][/quote]
what exactly would you like to see changed? people should care more about non-East-Asian Asians, or that we should label the site for East Asians?

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin-SunWuKung+Aug 13 2003, 09:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SunWuKung @ Aug 13 2003, 09:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> what exactly would you like to see changed? people should care more about non-East-Asian Asians, or that we should label the site for East Asians? [/b][/quote]
Step 1: Recognize Asian Advocacy is Southeast/East Asian Advocacy. Change the titles and the rhetoric to represent reality.

[azizgilani]

<!--QuoteBegin->:^|+Aug 13 2003, 05:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (>:^| @ Aug 13 2003, 05:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, what would stop you from starting your own site and your own coalition?&nbsp; What's so great about us that you want us to become you?&nbsp; Seriously curious, not just being annoying on purpose.&nbsp;
[/b][/quote]
See my response on this thread Posted: Aug 11 2003, 08:47 AM, it already addresses this issue. Long story short these institutions/coalitions already exist.

And how do you know some of us aren't some of you and vice versa?&nbsp; Several of the "Asian" groups I've worked with had members who weren't those pesky, name-hogging "East Asians."

What this really boils down to is if "Asian" groups address "Asian" issues, not just East Asian ones.

This week we saw the following issues were addressed by West Asian and South Asian communities. Lets see how many of them made it onto the "Asian" radar here at Yellowworld

1: The Bush administration made it clear that it would recess appoint Daniel Pipes to the US Institute of Peace. Daniel Pipes is widely considered an islamophobe.
2: The FBI continued its series of townhall meetings with West Asian and South Asian communities regarding ethnic profiling and protection
3: 2 juveniles were arrested in a cross burning incident on front of a community center in maryland
4: A Sikh family was beaten in NYC
5: The US handed key telecommunication contracts in Iraq to Israeli firms
6: Continental Airlines anounced it was ending Vegetarian Halal and Kosher meals on domestic flights begining September 4th

I am not trying to trash Yellowworld, like I have always said this forum is great at addressing East Asian issues; just as Asian Advocacy is great at addressing East Asian needs. Lets just get the labeling right (Step 1).

[ChinaLama]

Well, what about equal opportunity in the workplace as one issue that can unite all Asians? I think South Asians and East Asians both face a glass ceiling in the workplace.

Or how about the Coble issue? While Congressman Coble made his comment about Japanese Americans, the present-day equivalent is a possibility for South Asian Americans, unless we do something and organize to oppose Coble's stance.

[BeTheReds]

I think aziz has a perfectly good point. Mainly I like it because it supports my "there is no asian american community" theory. I have never considered south asians part of the same cultural spehere as east asia. And likewise they also have not considered most east asians part of theirs.

However Alibaba brings up a point that East Asian is too easily compressed to Asian, since that's what America's definition of Asian is. Yet Asian means all people who live in or came from Asia.. and face it ASIA IS FREAKIN HUGE! The brits have the same problem, as all south asians to them are asians. And east asians are.. um.. Orientals?

Anyway I think that there does need to be a term to deliniate the difference. East and South and west asian I don't like.

How about...

Arabs, Subcontinentals, and Yellows (or Orientals.. which I don't quite know why is such a bad term other than that activists have tolde me so, but can't tell me why...)

[Xanadu]

If we really want to separate Asians into subgroups, then East, South, and West Asians should do, although these may still not be perfectly accurate. The East Asians should include the Filipinos, Malays, Indonesians, and Singaporeans, imo.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

<!--QuoteBegin-Xanadu+Aug 16 2003, 07:27 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xanadu @ Aug 16 2003, 07:27 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The East Asians should include the Filipinos, Malays, Indonesians, and Singaporeans, imo. [/b][/quote]
Uh ... East and Southeast Asians don't have many similarities to justify lumping them into one group. Namely, Malays and Indonesians:
1. Stand at the farthest Southeast you can go in Asia
2. For a long time have looked to India as their cultural center of gravity, and even the Buddhist kingdoms which were swept away by Hindu kingdoms (which were later swept away by Islam) took almost no influence from China
2. Don't much like Chinese people, and have made life for the Chinese descendants there harder than any non other non-communist country in the world
3. Don't have many Chinese loanwords in their language
4. Don't share many genetic diseases with even Southern Chinese
5. Don't look much like Chinese either:
<img src='http://home.graffiti.net/elb/29bayi.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' class='attach' />

Further, Filipinos in California successfully lobbied to have themselves taken out of the East and South-Asian dominated "Asian" category for the purposes of college admissions, government contracting, and allocation of federal funding to non-profits.

Finally, Singaporeans are not an ethnic group. And the 25%+ of non-Chinese Singaporeans would probably be rather annoyed to be forced into the "East Asian" box,

[seanp]

<!--QuoteBegin-AliBabaIncorporated+Aug 12 2003, 09:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Aug 12 2003, 09:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, we had a perfectly good enough word for it: oriental. (And for SE Asians, Indochinese, which hasn't fallen as far into disrepute). Still in use on the far side of the pond, as I understand it. Now that it's gone, people refuse to admit that we need a one-word replacement. If South Asians want their voices to be heard, hurry up and help us come up with better terms to distinguish the two of us, so your issues don't get buried under ours.

It's all about branding, and the present brand names suck ass. "East Asian" is never gonna gain popularity outside the blogosphere. Media would truncate it to "Asian" in no time because mostly everyone just thinks of "Asian" as being "Chinese people and anyone who looks like them." "CJKV" sounds ridiculous outside of technical circles discussing double-byte character systems. et cetera ... [/b][/quote]

I'm Viet but I don't want to be in the Indo-Chinese categoryo__O vietnam has never been influenced by indian significantly except for the buddhism of course

[Napoleon Chynamite]

<!--QuoteBegin-seanp+Aug 16 2003, 12:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (seanp @ Aug 16 2003, 12:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AliBabaIncorporated+Aug 12 2003, 09:43 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Aug 12 2003, 09:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, we had a perfectly good enough word for it: oriental. (And for SE Asians, Indochinese, which hasn't fallen as far into disrepute). Still in use on the far side of the pond, as I understand it. Now that it's gone, people refuse to admit that we need a one-word replacement. If South Asians want their voices to be heard, hurry up and help us come up with better terms to distinguish the two of us, so your issues don't get buried under ours.

It's all about branding, and the present brand names suck ass. "East Asian" is never gonna gain popularity outside the blogosphere. Media would truncate it to "Asian" in no time because mostly everyone just thinks of "Asian" as being "Chinese people and anyone who looks like them." "CJKV" sounds ridiculous outside of technical circles discussing double-byte character systems. et cetera ... [/b][/quote]

I'm Viet but I don't want to be in the Indo-Chinese categoryo__O vietnam has never been influenced by indian significantly except for the buddhism of course [/b][/quote]
Yeah, I have always seen Vietnamese as more East Asian than anything like Southeast Asian or whatever, esp. in the realm of cultural similarities.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

The term 'yellow' has never bothered me but somewhat confuses me. What about those Chinese, Japanese, or Koreans who have some type of Polynesian or Pacific Islander or Austronesian blood (and trust me, there are a lot of them out there)? Are they still yellow? haha These people to me are easily distinguishable because they have many more, for lack of better term, 'non-mongol' phenotypical traits (such as darker skin, larger eyes, etc). I see this a lot in many but not all Japanese and Southern Chinese (but even Northern Chinese and Korean pretty often). I read that many Chinese today (and perhaps other Asians too) have Turkish as well as Persian or Arabic blood due to the silk road trade routes. Nevertheless, I guess the vast majority of East Asians have skin with a yellowish tint regardless of how pale or tan they naturally are. Just goes to show that we are a bunch of mutts.

[nonamerasian]

<!--QuoteBegin-FrozenPizza+Aug 16 2003, 05:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FrozenPizza @ Aug 16 2003, 05:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The term 'yellow' has never bothered me but somewhat confuses me. What about those Chinese, Japanese, or Koreans who have some type of Polynesian or Pacific Islander or Austronesian blood (and trust me, there are a lot of them out there)? Are they still yellow? haha These people to me are easily distinguishable because they have many more, for lack of better term, 'non-mongol' phenotypical traits (such as darker skin, larger eyes, etc). I see this a lot in many but not all Japanese and Southern Chinese (but even Northern Chinese and Korean pretty often). I read that many Chinese today (and perhaps other Asians too) have Turkish as well as Persian or Arabic blood due to the silk road trade routes. Nevertheless, I guess the vast majority of East Asians have skin with a yellowish tint regardless of how pale or tan they naturally are. Just goes to show that we are a bunch of mutts. [/b][/quote]
Have you ever noticed the variation in phenotype in the group labelled “Black”?

I like the term Yellow, too. I only recently found out that it's one of those no-no words.

[Xanadu]

<!--QuoteBegin-AliBabaIncorporated+Aug 16 2003, 04:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Aug 16 2003, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Uh ... East and Southeast Asians don't have many similarities to justify lumping them into one group. Namely, Malays and Indonesians:
1. Stand at the farthest Southeast you can go in Asia
2. For a long time have looked to India as their cultural center of gravity, and even the Buddhist kingdoms which were swept away by Hindu kingdoms (which were later swept away by Islam) took almost no influence from China
2. Don't much like Chinese people, and have made life for the Chinese descendants there harder than any non other non-communist country in the world
3. Don't have many Chinese loanwords in their language
4. Don't share many genetic diseases with even Southern Chinese
5. Don't look much like Chinese either:
<img src='http://home.graffiti.net/elb/29bayi.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' class='attach' />

Further, Filipinos in California successfully lobbied to have themselves taken out of the East and South-Asian dominated "Asian" category for the purposes of college admissions, government contracting, and allocation of federal funding to non-profits.

Finally, Singaporeans are not an ethnic group. And the 25%+ of non-Chinese Singaporeans would probably be rather annoyed to be forced into the "East Asian" box, [/b][/quote]
OK, so then let's exclude these groups from the category of East Asians.

[Cipherous]

<!--QuoteBegin-Xanadu+Aug 16 2003, 03:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Xanadu @ Aug 16 2003, 03:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AliBabaIncorporated+Aug 16 2003, 04:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (AliBabaIncorporated @ Aug 16 2003, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Uh ... East and Southeast Asians don't have many similarities to justify lumping them into one group. Namely, Malays and Indonesians:
1. Stand at the farthest Southeast you can go in Asia
2. For a long time have looked to India as their cultural center of gravity, and even the Buddhist kingdoms which were swept away by Hindu kingdoms (which were later swept away by Islam) took almost no influence from China
2. Don't much like Chinese people, and have made life for the Chinese descendants there harder than any non other non-communist country in the world
3. Don't have many Chinese loanwords in their language
4. Don't share many genetic diseases with even Southern Chinese
5. Don't look much like Chinese either:
<img src='http://home.graffiti.net/elb/29bayi.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' class='attach' />

Further, Filipinos in California successfully lobbied to have themselves taken out of the East and South-Asian dominated "Asian" category for the purposes of college admissions, government contracting, and allocation of federal funding to non-profits.

Finally, Singaporeans are not an ethnic group. And the 25%+ of non-Chinese Singaporeans would probably be rather annoyed to be forced into the "East Asian" box, [/b][/quote]
OK, so then let's exclude these groups from the category of East Asians. [/b][/quote]
looks more indian to me.

[tapestrybabe]

Yellowworld.org is not Asian. It is East Asian. It does not reflect the full range of Asia. The only thing calling itself Asian achieves, is the inflation of the initial perception of its breadth by uninformed individuals.


i agree...
this site is mostly made up of east asians... but this is not to say... we're trying to exclude a particular asian group... we actually welcome south, west asian ppl, etc... to join and participate more... i suppose its just difficult to recruit such ppl... because of its name... but like its been mentioned time and time again from yw administrators... the origion of the name yw has nothing to do with skin color... but its in reference to the time of yellow peril... of when the chinese exclusion act was passed... and its yw stance that yellow peril.. racism towards asians still exists...

perhaps culturally i dont have that much in common with an asian indian... but i dont see why an asian forum board like this... cant have different asians from various locations... come together, support, and learn from another...

[Mr.Lum]

like I do about whites, mexicans, etc. like its an other group.

[kuilong]

I find this opposition to the word 'yellow' to be interesting, because in Chinese east Asians are called ??? (lit. "yellow-type people"). Perhaps such terms won't have lasting value, if decades from now descendants of modern-day Asian-Americans are considered more American than Asian (just like European-Americans are considered more American than European) and even more if there are the descendants of white people in Asian countries who are considered more Asian than American or European.

And I think South Indians and East Asians immigrants, at any rate, have a lot more in common than East Asian and European immigrants, since most of both groups are relatively recent immigrants (excluding the Japanese, the Filipinos and the descendants of the earlier Cantonese immigrations and such) and both are rather self-selecting (only the better educated and well-off can immigrate, as opposed to Mexican or Cuban immigration, for instance). Perhaps as a result of the latter, there's more of both in white-collar jobs than other immigrant groups (and I heard some amazingly large percentage of the world's math Ph.Ds are Indian). As to whether Southeast Asians deserve to be in the same group as East Asians, perhaps we have to recognize that groups of people aren't sharply defined, but are more like a slowly changing spectrum, and any attempt to draw sharp boundaries is going to be somewhat artificial when you get right down to it.

[Edit: Even in the US, I've seen more and more people include South Asians when they talk of "Asians", and some are actually surprised that other people don't think of them as "Asian". Maybe it's just a California thing.]

[yoMAMA]

I just don't see why indians and pakistanis and arabs are not asians.

They are from Asia, so why not include them in the asian group?

Sure, Asia is not the same political and cultural concept as Europe, but so what?

[Mr.Lum]

Europe is atached to Asia, realy just a pennisula. why arent they Asian? Arabs are in Africa, Asia, Europe etc, very widely spread and are not solidly in or from Asia. they can be caucasian, african, etc. its just an ethnicity that goes from Iraq in the east, to Morocco in the west, to the Sudan in the south and a bunch of other places in the north. they arent racialy, "asian" either. most Arabs any way, most are either caucasian or African. my grandma was Algerian Arab, from Algiers, she was rather dark, looked like an italian almost. there are also black african Algerian Arabs, and most of the Sudan is ethnicaly Arab and black African racialy.

[yoMAMA]

Europe is atached to Asia, realy just a pennisula. why arent they Asian? Arabs are in Africa, Asia, Europe etc, very widely spread and are not solidly in or from Asia. they can be caucasian, african, etc. its just an ethnicity that goes from Iraq in the east, to Morocco in the west, to the Sudan in the south and a bunch of other places in the north. they arent racialy, "asian" either. most Arabs any way, most are either caucasian or African. my grandma was Algerian Arab, from Algiers, she was rather dark, looked like an italian almost. there are also black african Algerian Arabs, and most of the Sudan is ethnicaly Arab and black African racialy.

Well, the thing is, despite out wishful thinking, no "race" is "pure" anywhere on the planet.

[Kuchana]

Well, the thing is, despite out wishful thinking, no "race" is "pure" anywhere on the planet.

I agree. For example, today my mother-in-law and I caught a cab and she talked to the driver in Spanish. He didn't understand because he wasn't Latino! She and I both thought he was Latino and he even sounded like he had a Latin accent but he was actually Moroccan. Even though Morocco is across from Spain, he said that they don't speak Spanish but instead French, English, and Arabic.

[Mr.Lum]

despite wishful thinking, "asian" does not include anyone from Asia. it is mongoloids and sometimes Indians. Arabs in America are considered Caucasian. also, despite your wishful thinking, "race" isnt geography, its physical science. according to alot of people, Indians are caucasians.

[yoMAMA]

despite wishful thinking, "asian" does not include anyone from Asia. it is mongoloids and sometimes Indians. Arabs in America are considered Caucasian. also, despite your wishful thinking, "race" isnt geography, its physical science. according to alot of people, Indians are caucasians.

That is the euro-centric perspective.

:rolleyes:

Remember, they are also the folks that created the concept of "race" and "nation states".

[Mr.Lum]

I agree. For example, today my mother-in-law and I caught a cab and she talked to the driver in Spanish. He didn't understand because he wasn't Latino! She and I both thought he was Latino and he even sounded like he had a Latin accent but he was actually Moroccan. Even though Morocco is across from Spain, he said that they don't speak Spanish but instead French, English, and Arabic.

yeah, people be speaking to me in spanish (usually puerto ricans) like I am latino. I only know a little bit of it, but I aint Latino! wrong island! my grandma had an accent from Algeria but people thought she was like cuban o w/e. uh, no.

That is the euro-centric perspective.

:rolleyes:

Remember, they are also the folks that created the concept of "race" and "nation states".

very true. but Arabs alot of times are caucasian. not "white" tho. my grandma if she were still alive could tell you about how "white" she was in France.

[yoMAMA]

yeah, people be speaking to me in spanish (usually puerto ricans) like I am latino. I only know a little bit of it, but I aint Latino! wrong island! my grandma had an accent from Algeria but people thought she was like cuban o w/e. uh, no.



very true. but Arabs alot of times are caucasian. not "white" tho. my grandma if she were still alive could tell you about how "white" she was in France.

yeah, i remember a guy from my school, who is syrian, told me that arabs are often mistaken for latino guys, and people would start talking to him in spanish, and he was like, "what?"

[Kuchana]

yeah, i remember a guy from my school, who is syrian, told me that arabs are often mistaken for latino guys, and people would start talking to him in spanish, and he was like, "what?"

hahah that's funny because when my husband was in the middle east, he was often mistaken for being middle eastern and the people would talk to him in arabic but he's mexican. some people also thought he was italian for some reason.

and my indian/nepalese friend is always mistaken for either latina or filipina. people approach her, talking in spanish but she is far from it! :tongue:

[Mr.Lum]

I have an uncle who is Algerian/Palestinian and some guy was like "hola! blah blah en espanol" and he was like "intictarafi englizi, eh araaby?" (do you speak english or arabic?"

[Kuchana]

I have an uncle who is Algerian/Palestinian and some guy was like "hola! blah blah en espanol" and he was like "intictarafi englizi, eh araaby?" (do you speak english or arabic?"

where did that happen??? :smile:

[yoMAMA]

despite wishful thinking, "asian" does not include anyone from Asia. it is mongoloids and sometimes Indians. Arabs in America are considered Caucasian. also, despite your wishful thinking, "race" isnt geography, its physical science. according to alot of people, Indians are caucasians.

Now i think about it, i think our differences are from the cultures that we were brought up"

in the chinese culture, "race" is really not that relevant. Even being Chinese is being a cultural concept, which means that basically any race that accepts chinese culture can be seen as chinese.

Now fast forward to the American culture, where everyone is lumped into 3 or 4 major categories. So you are either "white", or "black", or "brown", or "yellow, red...etc"......so if they are "white", there's no way they can be "yellow" at the same time.....

My point is, so what if indians are caucasian or "white" or "aryan" or whatever, they are part of asia, and if they are thus asians. Who said that asians can only be "yellow"?

remember, asians in asia don't put themselves in a box like they do in the U.S.

[Mr.Lum]

where did that happen??? :smile:

New Haven.

remember, asians in asia don't put themselves in a box like they do in the U.S.

where are we tho? America.

[Kuchana]

Now i think about it, i think our differences are from the cultures that we were brought up"

in the chinese culture, "race" is really not that relevant. Even being Chinese is being a cultural concept, which means that basically any race that accepts chinese culture can be seen as chinese.

Now fast forward to the American culture, where everyone is lumped into 3 or 4 major categories. So you are either "white", or "black", or "brown", or "yellow, red...etc"......so if they are "white", there's no way they can be "yellow" at the same time.....

My point is, so what if indians are caucasian or "white" or "aryan" or whatever, they are part of asia, and if they are thus asians. Who said that asians can only be "yellow"?

remember, asians in asia don't put themselves in a box like they do in the U.S.

I think that people automatically jump to conclusions that Asians are yellow instead of thinking otherwise. Asians come in all different colours do they not? Same as Latinos I would imagine. And Arabic as well maybe. Anymore??

Why would Indians be considered Caucasian though? Not all of them are pale. Some are quite dark, even black in comparison.

[Mr.Lum]

Why would Indians be considered Caucasian though? Not all of them are pale. Some are quite dark, even black in comparison

it is not from skin, its from bone structure and language. I have seen alot of indians myself even that just look like burnt white people.

[mr. x]

it is not from skin, its from bone structure and language. I have seen alot of indians myself even that just look like burnt white people.

thats a pretty damn good characterization

if anyhting shouldnt the white people be compared to others considering humans were probly dark first then got lighter?

[yoMAMA]

thats a pretty damn good characterization

if anyhting shouldnt the white people be compared to others considering humans were probly dark first then got lighter?

while i guess all humans are from africa anyways....but then that conflicts with the strict racial catergorization of america.....

[Mr.Lum]

out of africa doesnt realy conflict with it.

[SunWuKong]

in the chinese culture, "race" is really not that relevant. Even being Chinese is being a cultural concept, which means that basically any race that accepts chinese culture can be seen as chinese.

it's true that China has a history of "sinocisiong" non-Chinese people, so while what you say is theoretically true, i doubt that is really practically applicable to people who are not East Asian. if a Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc, person is fluent in Chinese and is culturally very Chinese, i can totally imagine that this person would be accepted as Chinese. a non-East Asian person may be treated as if he was Chinese, if he were very fluent in the language and very accustomed to the culture, but i doubt anybody is going to call him a 華人 (hua ren) or 中國人 (zhong guo ren) anytime soon.

Why would Indians be considered Caucasian though? Not all of them are pale. Some are quite dark, even black in comparison.

it's not just skin colour. it's also genetics. a long time ago, Aryans conquered the Indus Valley and as much as they tried to avoid intermarriages, those Aryans eventually inter-bred with the Dravidians that were already there. that's why some Indians are paler and some are darker.

and likewise, Persians are actually from the same Aryan stock as Germans.

[yoMAMA]

So according to your theory, the gypsies [or roma] in europe are also aryan, since they originated in india.

however, the europeans don't even see them as human beings, much less aryan.

[Kuchana]

it's not just skin colour. it's also genetics. a long time ago, Aryans conquered the Indus Valley and as much as they tried to avoid intermarriages, those Aryans eventually inter-bred with the Dravidians that were already there. that's why some Indians are paler and some are darker.

and likewise, Persians are actually from the same Aryan stock as Germans.

Ok well in this instance I was thinking about skin colour only but I can't ignore genetics either.

So according to your theory, the gypsies [or roma] in europe are also aryan, since they originated in india.

however, the europeans don't even see them as human beings, much less aryan.

aren't gypsies considered aryan as well???

[SunWuKong]

So according to your theory, the gypsies [or roma] in europe are also aryan, since they originated in india.

however, the europeans don't even see them as human beings, much less aryan.

i have no idea. i'm just explaining why they might be considered Caucasoid. it's because they have Caucasoid genes. David Duke himself visited India because of the Caucasoid influence/origin of Indian people, but he left thoroughly disgusted at the mix-breeding that created the modern day Indian people.

[Mr.Lum]

"Aryan" isnt realy German.

[kuilong]

it's not just skin colour. it's also genetics. a long time ago, Aryans conquered the Indus Valley and as much as they tried to avoid intermarriages, those Aryans eventually inter-bred with the Dravidians that were already there. that's why some Indians are paler and some are darker.

and likewise, Persians are actually from the same Aryan stock as Germans.

"Aryan" is a Sanskrit word in the first place. And it seems more likely that the Aryan "invasion" wasn't an invasion at all, but more of a gradual migration into the Indian subcontinent.

That's why Hindi, Rajasthani, Marathi, Romany, Farsi, Russian, Albanian, Greek, French, German, Dutch, Norwegian, and several others, extinct and not, can be shown to be descended from a common ancestor. And in Northern India and Pakistan you'll find people with blue eyes and other traditionally "European" characteristics.

[robotic]

South Asia typically refers to the Indian Subcontinent, which makes up:

India, Pakistan, Bangladesh...not sure about Nepal or Bhutan*. I guess they are in there too, although they are in the mountains between China and India.

Central Asia

Afghanistan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Armenia, Iran (depends on who you ask, but many don’t consider Iran a Middle Eastern country), Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and all those other damn ‘stans countries that were part of the Soviet Union, that are South of Russia and West of China.

West Asia If I am not mistaken, people in the UK refer to the Middle East as West Asia, but we don’t in America, so I won’t go into that.



just things i would like to touch upon:
on south asia: generally, all south asian countries rest upon the indian subcontinental plate (due to research, it has been found out that this plate was seperate from the rest of asia and joined with the continent many, many years later) - bhutan, nepal, sri lanka and maldives are all considered south asian countries.

west pakistan, however, is normally referred to as central/south asian because of its geographical position. iranian's, despite widespread belief, are not really arabs as they do not speak the arab language. the majority of iranians do, however, follow the same religion as most arab countries: islam. the term 'west asia' is not really seen as "politically correct" - and the middle east is more often used.

[jfung79]

Some political/social issues that South Asian-Americans face in common with most other Asian-Americans, are:

* being pointed to as the "model minority"
* backlash about immigration and outsourcing taking away jobs
* disproporationately sharing many of the same occupations, including engineer, doctor, nurse, restauranteur, small business owner, and some low-wage service occupations
* not being viewed as good in sports
* being concentrated in many of the same areas of the United States

Also, cultural similarities that I see include (I realize this does not apply to all API communities, but they seem to be generally true of Indian-American and Chinese-American families, which I have the most experience with):

* heavy emphasis on obedience to parents and respect for elders
* sacrifice as a prized cultural trait
* wanting the son or daughter to be a lawyer, doctor, or engineer
* Buddhism and Hinduism share a belief in rebirth, karma, and some emphasis on nonviolence (not sure about Sikhs and Jains, and then there are many Indian Muslims too) -- not a surprise since Buddhism grew out of Hinduism and both are from India
* music -- Chinese and Japanese music have some Indian roots
* Persian and Arab influence (not so much for Japan and Korea I think)
* Monkey -- Hanuman the Monkey God of the Hindu Ramayana was probably an inspiration for Sun Wukong of China's "Journey to the West" novel, which was based on a Chinese monk's account of his journey to India to retrieve Buddhist texts


Historically, India was very much a cultural influence in Southeast Asia -- where there were Buddhist and Hindu kingdoms, even including Vietnam, where some of the indigenous Cham are still Hindu today. For East Asia, especially China, Indian influence was also strong, including the briniging of martial arts from India to China along with Buddhism, the Indian stupa becoming the Chinese pagoda, the story of the rabbit in the moon coming with Buddhism, and aspects of astronomy, mathematics, and medicine.

Historically too, colonialism affected all Asian countries.


And then, Islam is a linker as well. Muslims are a significant religious group in China (the Hui and the western minorities), India, Pakistan of course, Bangladesh of course, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, and I'm sure I'm forgetting some other countries where Islam is a significant cultural presence.

Christianity also.


So I think that a pan-Asian-American identity and agenda is absolutely valid and possible. I think that including Middle Easterners would probably make sense too if the definition of "Asian American" were ever changed (although that is not the case today), becuase they also share many of the same cultural traits, historical ties, and present-day issues.


If anything, I actually see less of a connection to Pacific Islanders -- maybe I am just not aware/ignorant.

[robotic]

what does "asian" mean?

i've always felt that caucasians never fit into such a group (arabs / middle-eastern / south asians) because there are many things we cannot identify with.

i realize that yellow world speaks out for anyone who has suffered injustice, but for the longest time, i, too, could not connect or see the relevance between me and asia, it was rather, me and indian. and maybe that's how it is. we don't really... "fit" with other asians. arabs, may they be syrian, iraqi, lebanese, palestinian etc. are an entirely different sect, ethnicity and clearly identify more with white caucasians and europeans - mainly due to features/colour etc.

we sort of hang like loose threads somewhere. having a north indian (ancestory) background... i think we can identify even lesser with other south asians (nepalese, burmese, sri lankans, maldivians, south indians etc.)

can east asians identify with south-east asians and vice-versa? how about south asians? or arabs?

[nonamerasian]

There's a thread kinda on the issue.

http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=5533&page=1&pp=15

[Chu Chi]

what does "asian" mean?


In reference to people it means "not White".

What ever else it means Im not sure but I know it definately means non white when its used to identify people.

CC

[Mr.Lum]

arabs, may they be syrian, iraqi, lebanese, palestinian etc. are an entirely different sect, ethnicity and clearly identify more with white caucasians and europeans - mainly due to features/colour etc

I think that is true for Levantine Arabs. I would disagree on Megribi/North African Arabs. It depends on where they are from. I know Lebanese people who come to the US at least, tend to be Christian and assimilate quickly. Ralf Nader is an example, or Casey Kasem. Paula Abdul also. But as far as Moroccans or Algerians are concerned at least those in my family/family friends tend not to want to id with whites. Don't forget also that in the US, Arabs; all of them, be they from Algeria, Lebanon or Sudan are classified as "white". I don't know if the dude at the census who added Sudan or West Sahara had seen an Arab from those countries but that's how it is.

can east asians identify with south-east asians and vice-versa? how about south asians? or arabs?

It depends for me at least. Most of my Indian friends are not from South Asia, they're from Trinidad or Guyana. I don't really know many South Asians that aren't Pakistani. I don't really hang out with them tho. Arabs, well am related to a lot of them on my dad's side so I'd say it's not too hard for them to get along. My grandma was Algerian and my grandpa was Chinese (Hui). Most of the Arabs in my family are Algerian, Syrian or Palestinian. I have a second cusin or something who's wife is Tunisian (he lives there now). There are 3 Lebanese, none of them by blood all by marriage. Two are Muslim and the other is Quaker (he helped to convince me). There are quite a few Lebanese in CT in fact. Most are Marronite/Orthodox and act like mainstream white people. I know a lot of them used to pass as Italian back in the day. The Muslim ones in my experience tend to id with minorities much more. For South East asians, I have always gotten along with them. A lot of my friends are Cambodian or Viet.

[SunWuKong]

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