Detroit votes for racial segregation

[Jeff Yu :)]

http://www.freep.com/news/locway/detplan21e_20040921.htm

Detroit council OKs plan that touts racial separation

September 21, 2004

BY MARISOL BELLO
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER

A majority of the Detroit City Council wants to implement an economic development plan it commissioned for $112,000 that preaches racial isolation and rails against immigration in its bid to gain economic success for poor blacks.

The crux of the plan is the creation of a business district -- dubbed African Town -- that would be funded in part with city money and made up of black-owned businesses catering to a black clientele.

The report also complains that immigrants from Mexico, Asia and the Middle East are stealing resources, jobs and other opportunities from blacks and calls on city leaders to stop the economic shift.

The report does not call on the city to stop immigration -- and the city wouldn't have any power to stop it, even if it wanted to -- but the report does call on the city to level the playing field between blacks and the newcomers who it says are economically surpassing them.

"We see this as another compliment to the exciting development going on in the city," said Councilwoman JoAnn Watson, who introduced the effort to the council earlier this summer. The plan is under scrutiny by some city leaders and economic development experts who question the legality of an effort meant to help only one race. Some officials decry the council's efforts as threatening to reverse strides made in the region to improve race relations and the city's relationship with its neighbors.

Such a plan also could further alienate efforts by Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick to seek regional cooperation and funding for major projects, such as an expansion and renovation of Cobo Center.

One official calls it outright racist.

"It's reverse racism," said Kay Everett, one of two councilwomen who voted against the plan. The other council member who rejected the plan was Sheila Cockrel.

"This is foolish," Everett said. "They don't understand. They're not thinking of the city as a whole. We need to bring harmony to this city, and if we say that we do not want any other people here, then we're being racist."

Council members who voted for the plan are quick to say they are not against immigrants. They say the city must act to help blacks, who more than any other ethnic group in the United States suffer from high levels of poverty, unemployment and school dropout rates.

Kilpatrick vetoed efforts by the council in July to implement the plan, but last week the mayor met with the plan's creator, Claud Anderson, a former Detroiter who had unsuccessfully applied for a casino license. He is also the author of popular books about the economic state of blacks in the country.

Kilpatrick officials said they did not sign any agreements with Anderson, but they are working to help him find land for a business district. So far, they have been unsuccessful.

A mayoral spokesman said that while the meetings were not an endorsement of the politics behind Anderson's plans, the mayor sees merit in the portions of the plan that are focused on creating jobs and increasing the number of black-owned businesses in the city.

"As they do with any potential investors, the mayor and his development team will continue to evaluate any economic development proposal presented to the city as part of its ongoing efforts to grow Detroit," said mayoral spokesman Howard Hughey.

"This administration is committed to improving the social and economic conditions, not only of African Americans, but also other traditionally disadvantaged groups."

He said the administration is against the council's efforts to institutionalize a system that only helps blacks to the exclusion of other races. The council will find it difficult to implement its plan without the mayor's approval.

The report, "A Powernomics Economic Development Plan for Detroit's Under-Served Majority Population," says inner cities should be improved for its residents, who should own and control the businesses in their neighborhoods. He calls on blacks to support black-owned businesses, in the same way he says other groups frequent stores owned by people of their own ethnicities.

The report also says integration has failed blacks and that regionalism is a bid by whites to control the city's resources. Anderson warns city leaders to beware of non-blacks moving into the city because they will have their own agendas.

Anderson says his theories are not racist, but they are honest.

He said the city is bordering on an economic crisis, with 26 percent of the city's population living below the poverty line.

"The biggest problem in the city of Detroit -- and it's true of all urban areas -- are black leaders and white leaders who continue to use and hide behind the myth of a color-blind and race-neutral society and use it as an excuse not to deal with this dilemma," Anderson said.

"There are special problems unique to black folks, and the city needs to address their problems."

Detroit is the first city to begin to implement his Powernomics philosophy, Anderson said. He wants to create a business district for blacks, like Mexicantown or Greektown, that would include a fish factory with its own hatchery, black hair-care supplier, popcorn factory and fruit juice producers.

He said he has some investors lined up to help with such a project, but he would not reveal their names.

The executive director of the Initiative for a Competitive Inner City, a Boston-based nonprofit created by a Harvard University business professor, said the council is right to want to implement a plan to help blacks become entrepreneurs. But the director, Anne Habiby, said black-business ownership is not a panacea, especially if there are no plans in place to help the business owners succeed. The initiative is in talks with Detroit to work as a consultant on economic development issues.

Habiby said Detroit has suffered so much population loss that its future success depends on more people moving into the city.

"Detroit must be an attractive place for people to live," Habiby said. "It's shortsighted for city leaders to create an environment that feels unwelcoming."

Activists in the Hispanic and Arab communities say the city should work to help African Americans, but they said they worry that if the plan is seen as a race-based solution, it may deepen rifts between ethnic groups.

"I do think it's the city leadership's duty to work with the community and no doubt, the priority is African Americans," said Imad Hamad, Michigan director of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee. "We have to go by the makeup of the community. ... My concern here is that it depends how people read it or react to it."

One Hispanic business leader said the city should open its doors to all ethnic groups. She said the Mexican community has been part of the city since the early 1900s. Hispanics account for 5 percent of the city's population.

"There's a lot going on in the city of Detroit, and if there is a need for an African Town, go for it," said Maria Elena Rodriguez, president of the Mexicantown Community Development Corporation. "But we should not be knocked for trying to get a seat at the table."

And John Carroll, who heads the Detroit Regional Chamber of Commerce, said like it or not, the city and the suburbs are tied together.

"We think it's not a good option to pursue," he said.

But seven of nine council members did. They voted in July to begin implementing parts of Anderson's plan, including a resolution that designates blacks, who make up 83 percent of Detroit's population, as the "majority minority" group and another that creates a development corporation that would operate as a loan fund exclusively for black entrepreneurs.

The mayor vetoed both resolutions, but the same council members overrode the veto.

Councilwoman Cockrel, who supported the mayor's veto, said: "I'm not prepared to support an economic development strategy that has the unintended consequences of pitting people against each other. At the end of the day ... the plan ... advocates exclusionary classifications and illegal set-asides that only serve to divide and polarize within the city and the region. And we have plenty of that already."

For fuck's sake, do these idiots really think that the only way to help an ethnic group is to marginalize all the other ones?

[TB4000]

While I do feel that there is an extreme lack of unity amongst blacks in areas like Detroit, I highly doubt something like "African Town" would really fly for a long period of time. I think their major beef, as is the case with many black communities, that all of the businesses are owned by non-black peoples, which is a whole other kettle of fish.

[SunWuKong]

look how all the minorities are working together.

this is such bullshit. go ahead and let the business community attract black businesses to a certain area, but to use city money and resources to do it, that's bullshit.

[kimpossible]

The report also complains that immigrants from Mexico, Asia and the Middle East are stealing resources, jobs and other opportunities from blacks and calls on city leaders to stop the economic shift.


Stealing is a rather harsh term.

[asvenus]

lord have mercy..divide and rule..divide and rule..
while i can understand the need to promote and support Black owned business, this is surely soem kind of plan devised by a deranged loon??!! surely??!! *sighs*
and 'Africatown' what in the hell?? this idea of 'multiculturalism' is such a farce.. :mad:

[SunWuKong]

lord have mercy..divide and rule..divide and rule..
while i can understand the need to promote and support Black owned business, this is surely soem kind of plan devised by a deranged loon??!! surely??!! *sighs*
and 'Africatown' what in the hell?? this idea of 'multiculturalism' is such a farce.. :mad:

i think the idea is to emulate, for example, Chinatown, Mexicantown, etc etc. but to the best of my knowledge, neither had these ethnic business areas been planned by the city in the beginning, nor do they exclude business owners that are not of that race/ethnicity. i mean, blacks make up of 83% of Detroit's population, isn't the whole damn city pretty much an Africantown? it's bullshit that they actually feel the need to exclude other races from this planned business district.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Well, blacks, since they are more urbanized are the ones who face the brunt of job competition from unskilled immigration. Poor whites tend to be rural; Mexican immigrants in rural areas for the most part aren't stealing jobs from Americans, they're stealing jobs from machines. And middle-class to rich whites are the ones benefitting from the cheap pool of waiters, gardeners, nannies, lifeguards, etc. provided by mass unskilled immigration.

[asvenus]

this is the thing that incenses me, its like why tackle the root cause of things when you can just introduce some bullshit compensatory measures that will create more tensions between 'minoriy' peoples, thereby deflecting away from the real imbalances that exist in economic/educatonal/social blah blah blah life. maybe they should address how the Black population spends it money, on what and who with...i think this would be more helpful rather than banning anyone from setting up competition.

[deez nuts]

The crux of the plan is the creation of a business district -- dubbed African Town

lol

[Banana]

For fuck's sake, do these idiots really think that the only way to help an ethnic group is to marginalize all the other ones?

Yes.

[Arex]

They need RoboCop and OCP to clean up old Detroit...

I don't really see how this plan is going to help the region. I can accept a certain degree of ethnic favoritism on the individual level, but for the local govt. to institutionalize such favoritism is horrible. I can't imagine this passing Constitutional muster. If anything, since Blacks purportedly make up 83% of the population, they ought to be able to control, to some degree, who owns businesses in the region without this racist measure anyway.

RX

[SunWuKong]

They need RoboCop and OCP to clean up old Detroit...

I don't really see how this plan is going to help the region. I can accept a certain degree of ethnic favoritism on the individual level, but for the local govt. to institutionalize such favoritism is horrible. I can't imagine this passing Constitutional muster. If anything, since Blacks purportedly make up 83% of the population, they ought to be able to control, to some degree, who owns businesses in the region without this racist measure anyway.

RX

so, i'm pretty sure white people aren't the ones that are designing and trying to implement this plan. it's pretty safe to assume that it's black people that want this to happen, and they're trying to make it happen at the government level. can we say power + discrimination?

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Re: Kim's post

Yea stealing implies that it was theirs to begin with and then somebody else decided to take it away.

[Arex]

Re: Kim's post

Yea stealing implies that it was theirs to begin with and then somebody else decided to take it away.
Well, I'm sure the businesses at one time belonged to them. But stealing implies the current owners took the businesses away without paying for them. I'm certain that didn't occur. I wonder how many Black people built up successful businesses in Detroit, and upon doing so, rather than sticking around a while and injecting their profits into the local economy, they sold their businesses to the highest bidder and moved into the suburbs.

RX

[Cipherous]

well, atleast Detriot won the NBA championships

[Banana]

^ ROFL. Nice picture.

[Cipherous]

^ ROFL. Nice picture.

thanks I made it myself :)

[hooligan]

so, i'm pretty sure white people aren't the ones that are designing and trying to implement this plan. it's pretty safe to assume that it's black people that want this to happen, and they're trying to make it happen at the government level. can we say power + discrimination?
lol. good for you SWK.

let's see where this plan goes, i agree with avenus. it's divide and conquer. shit. let's see who's backing this shit up before we jump to conclusions. who else sits on the board, who's the ones pushing for this. there's other things going on besides racial segregation here. then you can go back to being suspicious of other minorities.

[SunWuKong]

lol. good for you SWK.

let's see where this plan goes, i agree with avenus. it's divide and conquer. shit. let's see who's backing this shit up before we jump to conclusions. who else sits on the board, who's the ones pushing for this. there's other things going on besides racial segregation here. then you can go back to being suspicious of other minorities.

the plan was introduced by city council member JoAnn Watson (http://www3.ci.detroit.mi.us/legislative/CityCouncil/Members/watson/), who is black. divide and conquer? yeah maybe the plan is actually backed by a bunch of rich white people. but then again it was pretty hard for me to say that last sentence out loud without laughing.

remember, historically, segregationists are sometimes black. most prevalent to Detroit is the case of former mayor Coleman Young.

again, i think it would be fine if the business community was to do this. but what is not fine is to use city money for it, and also to exclude non-blacks from owning businesses in that district.

and it's not smart business anyway. if they want to make money, they should be targetting a richer clientele, meaning white suburbanites.

[hooligan]

the plan was introduced by city council member JoAnn Watson (http://www3.ci.detroit.mi.us/legislative/CityCouncil/Members/watson/), who is black. divide and conquer? yeah maybe the plan is actually backed by a bunch of rich white people. but then again it was pretty hard for me to say that last sentence out loud without laughing.

remember, historically, segregationists are sometimes black. most prevalent to Detroit is the case of former mayor Coleman Young.

again, i think it would be fine if the business community was to do this. but what is not fine is to use city money for it, and also to exclude non-blacks from owning businesses in that district.

and it's not smart business anyway. if they want to make money, they should be targetting a richer clientele, meaning white suburbanites.
JACL supported the internment, your point being?

[tommyhtown]

lol. good for you SWK.

let's see where this plan goes, i agree with avenus. it's divide and conquer. shit. let's see who's backing this shit up before we jump to conclusions. who else sits on the board, who's the ones pushing for this. there's other things going on besides racial segregation here. then you can go back to being suspicious of other minorities.

I don't think this is the case of divide and conquer. My take is using the city fund to back the plan that only benefits black-owned businesses is jut plain wrong. Sure, there might be some indirect benefits to other groups and the city of Detroit as a whole, but I just can't get over it especially when I read something like this

The report also says integration has failed blacks and that regionalism is a bid by whites to control the city's resources. Anderson warns city leaders to beware of non-blacks moving into the city because they will have their own agendas.

I don't know if there is 'the man' behind this, but both supporters named in the article, Anderson and Watson, are blacks.

I do like the idea of African town but I cannot picture what it would be like. Would it be anything like Chinatown, Koreatown, lil' Italy, etc.

[SunWuKong]

JACL supported the internment, your point being?

my point, which i thought was pretty obvious, is that it is entirely possible for black people, or black leaders, to support and propose plans that are discriminatory against other minorities, and that when it happens, it is not necessary that some rich white people are somehow behind the scheme trying to "divide and conquer".

and i have no idea what your point is about the JACL supporting the internment. i didn't even know that happened. i thought in the 1940s they argued with the Supreme Court saying that the internment was pointless?

[Arex]

I do like the idea of African town but I cannot picture what it would be like. Would it be anything like Chinatown, Koreatown, lil' Italy, etc.
Considering that most of the people populating this so-called "African-town" and their families have probably been in America for generations and have never stepped foot in Africa, it won't be anything like Chinatown, K-town, etc. It'll be just like...present day Detroit, only with fewer non-blacks.

I don't know where this divide and conquer idea came from. What does anyone, besides the 80% population of blacks stand to gain by squeezing out the 20% of non-blacks. I could understand a power grab by, say, a population of 40% of one ethnicity trying to divide three other closely aligned ethnic communities representing 20% each. But that's not what we have here.

Regardless, no matter who's ultimately behind the plan, it's still blatantly racist and segregationist. Addressing the JACL issue, even if the non-black minority shopkeepers went along with the plan, it doesn't change the fact that the plan is fucked up.

Here you have a local government in a city composed of a majority of one ethnicity, trying to squeeze out the minorities for the supposed benefit of the majority. It doesn't get much clearer than that. I don't care if there's an evil white man behind the black city counsel members supporting the plan. Those city counsel members are the ones who would ultimately enact it so they're definitely deserving of blame.

RX

[Cipherous]

I don't know where this divide and conquer idea came from. What does anyone, besides the 80% population of blacks stand to gain by squeezing out the 20% of non-blacks. I could understand a power grab by, say, a population of 40% of one ethnicity trying to divide three other closely aligned ethnic communities representing 20% each. But that's not what we have here.



I am not trying to defend the segregation here but just because the black population is 80% does not imply that the black population own 80% of the wealth (or assets) in detroit. Perhaps the disparity of distribution of wealth is the reason why they suggested segregation because its the other 20% that profits from the other 80%.

Clearly, all the shops and businesses rely on Blacks for their patronage (since black people do constitute 80% of the detroit population). Thus, blacks are the foundation for those businesses: they are the consumers and the laborers.

I think the message they want to get across is that Black people can also cater to Black people instead of non-blacks catering to Black people. In this case, they're even going as far as segregation (which I strongly disagree with) so that Blacks would start their own businesses.

If it was up to me, I'd set up a strong organization for getting African American businesses off the ground. I say give more scholarships to Blacks in Detroit and give more incentives for black entrepreneurship. Since Blacks are the poorer population of Detroit, I say make this more of an economic class issue instead of a race issue. I think the end result would be similiar as if it was specifically targetting Blacks.

All in all, I think this segregation act will pit other minorities against Blacks and ultimately, giving more reasons to discriminate against Blacks in the long run. There are alot of ignorant people out there. If you think affirmation action garnered opposition and bigotry, I am sure this segregation will garner even more outrage.

Just as there is opposition on YW (a "liberal" community), you can imagine what the conversative Whites would say about this act.

[Arex]

I am not trying to defend the segregation here but just because the black population is 80% does not imply that the black population own 80% of the wealth (or assets) in detroit. Perhaps the disparity of distribution of wealth is the reason why they suggested segregation because its the other 20% that profits from the other 80%.
I think you misunderstood me. I understand completely why the Blacks would be for this, and it has everything to do with the fact that blacks have a disproportionately low share of the wealth. My point was that, given the ethnic makeup of the population, it can't be some white conspiracy to grab power in the region. (or if it is, it doesn't make any sense)

Otherwise, I agree with everything you said.=)

RX

[Cipherous]

I think you misunderstood me. I understand completely why the Blacks would be for this, and it has everything to do with the fact that blacks have a disproportionately low share of the wealth. My point was that, given the ethnic makeup of the population, it can't be some white conspiracy to grab power in the region. (or if it is, it doesn't make any sense)

Otherwise, I agree with everything you said.=)

RX

yeah, I wasn't trying to argue with you. I was just trying to add on to what you said. I agree on your point that its not "the man" behind this. :)

[SunWuKong]

Considering that most of the people populating this so-called "African-town" and their families have probably been in America for generations and have never stepped foot in Africa, it won't be anything like Chinatown, K-town, etc. It'll be just like...present day Detroit, only with fewer non-blacks.

that's correct. the success of such districts as Chinatown, Koreatown, etc etc, comes from the fact that they are providing something that no other areas provide. those districts are the only areas that provide specific ethnicity-based services and products, and they also serve to court tourist money. i have my doubts that these districts would even have survived if not for the fact that locals and tourists that are not Asian also visit those places. the difference with an Africantown in Detroit is that, well, it provides products and services that no doubt are readily available in most parts of Detroit anyway, because 83% of the population is black.

[hooligan]

that's correct. the success of such districts as Chinatown, Koreatown, etc etc, comes from the fact that they are providing something that no other areas provide. those districts are the only areas that provide specific ethnicity-based services and products, and they also serve to court tourist money. i have my doubts that these districts would even have survived if not for the fact that locals and tourists that are not Asian also visit those places. the difference with an Africantown in Detroit is that, well, it provides products and services that no doubt are readily available in most parts of Detroit anyway, because 83% of the population is black.
you do realize that the only reason we do have chinatowns is because of racist forced segregation.

[AngryABCGirl]

you do realize that the only reason we do have chinatowns is because of racist forced segregation.

I wouldn't call the San Gabriel Valley a forced form of segregation, and the SGV is basically a giant Chinatown in a sense, except that it's nice and coshy. But people intentionally search it out to live there because its comfortable and they offer goods and services only an ethnic enclave would have. And people like staying there. That's not the same as a Chinatown ghetto per se, but people don't cluster in enclaves cause the white man forced them to.

[hooligan]

I wouldn't call the San Gabriel Valley a forced form of segregation, and the SGV is basically a giant Chinatown in a sense, except that it's nice and coshy. But people intentionally search it out to live there because its comfortable and they offer goods and services only an ethnic enclave would have. And people like staying there. That's not the same as a Chinatown ghetto per se, but people don't cluster in enclaves cause the white man forced them to.
no kidding, i'm speaking of the older chinatowns. they're there for a reason. SGV is inhabited by a different class of APIAs. i'd venture to say they're much better off than those who live in chinatowns today.

[SunWuKong]

you do realize that the only reason we do have chinatowns is because of racist forced segregation.

what does that have to do with this issue? how does that take away from what i said about the differences between this proposed Africantown and other ethnic enclaves like Chinatown? is there a lot of anti-black sentiments in Detroit, a city with a population that is 83% black, that i didn't know about? because anti-Chinese sentiments was why a lot of Chinatowns formed historically.

and no offense, but hello? welcome to the 21st century. there are no racist segregation laws now. ethnic enclaves are formed nowadays so people can be close to those with the same ethnic heritage. nowadays the sustenance of Chinatowns that were formed out of segregation is also due to the same reason. if anything, what these people on the city council in Detroit is trying to do would bring back legal segregation.

[Cipherous]

what does that have to do with this issue? how does that take away from what i said about the differences between this proposed Africantown and other ethnic enclaves like Chinatown? is there a lot of anti-black sentiments in Detroit, a city with a population that is 83% black, that i didn't know about? because anti-Chinese sentiments was why a lot of Chinatowns formed historically.

and no offense, but hello? welcome to the 21st century. there are no racist segregation laws now. ethnic enclaves are formed nowadays so people can be close to those with the same ethnic heritage. nowadays the sustenance of Chinatowns that were formed out of segregation is also due to the same reason. if anything, what these people on the city council in Detroit is trying to do would bring back legal segregation.
I am not trying to take sides here because I agree with you and Hooligan

When chinatown was formed, an entire community and micro-economic system consisting of Chinese and other asians was formed: the chinese and other asian shop keepers catered to chinese and other asians. Its the economic system is something that Blacks in detroit dont really have at the moment: its non-Blacks that are the shop keepers and its blacks who are the consumers.

For example,

at a mall near me, there is this Korean jersey shop that sells fubu, football and basketball jerseys (like the mitchell and ness and throw back stuff). Clearly, its selling Black fashion thats targeting Black people. I actually know the dude who owns the shop and all the employees there are korean, there are no blacks working there.

Given that scenerio, imagine that you and a million Chinese/Asians live in a city where there are few Asian owned shops. These shops are owned by hispanics, blacks and whites and they own the chinese food shops, apparel and chinese groceries. You buy almost everything from them yet you rarely see an asian being employed by either of those shops.

Naturally, there is going to be some movement towards more asian owned businesses because there might be some issue with pride or some issue with just asserting your independence. However, in detroit's case, there aren't enough blacks starting their businesses. I think the people have gotten desperate enough to take desperate measures. In this case, they're advocating racial segregation.

sorry to go off the topic here but I think its also one of the contributing factors why Blacks rioted Koreatown in LA. the situation between the korean shop owners and the black people were a powder keg waiting to explode. The Rodney King beating is just the spark that ignited the riot.

I am not trying to defend segregation in any form but I am trying to explain why they may want segregation without actually showing direct animosity towards non-Blacks.

[lethal]

Remeber, Detroit is the former home of Vincent Chin. Just a passing thought...

[SunWuKong]

I am not trying to take sides here because I agree with you and Hooligan

When chinatown was formed, an entire community and micro-economic system consisting of Chinese and other asians was formed: the chinese and other asian shop keepers catered to chinese and other asians. Its the economic system is something that Blacks in detroit dont really have at the moment: its non-Blacks that are the shop keepers and its blacks who are the consumers.

For example,

at a mall near me, there is this Korean jersey shop that sells fubu, football and basketball jerseys (like the mitchell and ness and throw back stuff). Clearly, its selling Black fashion thats targeting Black people. I actually know the dude who owns the shop and all the employees there are korean, there are no blacks working there.

Given that scenerio, imagine that you and a million Chinese/Asians live in a city where there are few Asian owned shops. These shops are owned by hispanics, blacks and whites and they own the chinese food shops, apparel and chinese groceries. You buy almost everything from them yet you rarely see an asian being employed by either of those shops.

i agree that there's probably not enough black-owned businesses in Detroit (i say "probably" because i haven't actually seen any stats on that, but i'll assume it's true). but these businesses wouldn't survive unless they also employ blacks, because we're talking about a city where the overwhelming majority is black. these businesses cater to a population that is majority black, if not enough black people were being employed, these businesses would have not enough revenue because all their customers wouldn't have enough money to buy from them.


I am not trying to defend segregation in any form but I am trying to explain why they may want segregation without actually showing direct animosity towards non-Blacks.

that is debatable. i have not read the report myself, but articles about the report have mentioned that:
The report also complains that immigrants from Mexico, Asia and the Middle East are stealing resources, jobs and other opportunities from blacks and calls on city leaders to stop the economic shift.

i mean give me a break. we're talking about people that probably don't speak English very well, and any credentials they may have might not even be recognised by the government. even under the grand assumption that Asian and Middle Eastern immigrants don't face the amount of job discrimination that blacks do, it's difficult to imagine that Mexican immigrants don't face just as much job discrimination.

[golden_buns]

i think the idea is to emulate, for example, Chinatown, Mexicantown, etc etc. but to the best of my knowledge, neither had these ethnic business areas been planned by the city in the beginning, nor do they exclude business owners that are not of that race/ethnicity.

Yeah, K-Town LA is basically full of mexicans and mexican businesses too. I don't think that because they're planning to make an "african town" they should exclude investors from other ethnicities.

[artsfartsyjanet]

yeah i think this is BU double L Shit! There's a Chinatown Square in St. Louis, MO, but that doesn't isolate the businesses around the district. We have a delmar loop that attracts clientele of so many people because of its diverse businesses. i see it as a step backward. Asians and other minority groups aren't "stealing" resources. Sounds like a lot of political scape goating is going on here.

[SunWuKong]

yeah i think this is BU double L Shit! There's a Chinatown Square in St. Louis, MO, but that doesn't isolate the businesses around the district. We have a delmar loop that attracts clientele of so many people because of its diverse businesses. i see it as a step backward. Asians and other minority groups aren't "stealing" resources. Sounds like a lot of political scape goating is going on here.

it doesn't make business sense either. they want this Africantown to cater to a black clientele only. if they really want black business owners to be successful, they'd encourage them to open businesses to cater to a wide range of clients. white people still have most of the wealth.

[artsfartsyjanet]

it doesn't make business sense either. they want this Africantown to cater to a black clientele only. if they really want black business owners to be successful, they'd encourage them to open businesses to cater to a wide range of clients. white people still have most of the wealth.

omfg. now, that's just insufficient purely for economic reasons. the target audience doesn't empower these businesses. if my parents opened a chinese restaurant only to serve or to target an asian clientele, we'd be out of business before you can say "on on chop suey may i help you." fuck that.

[Cipherous]

omfg. now, that's just insufficient purely for economic reasons. the target audience doesn't empower these businesses. if my parents opened a chinese restaurant only to serve or to target an asian clientele, we'd be out of business before you can say "on on chop suey may i help you." fuck that.
I don't they're saying "only blacks are served" or serving an exclusively black clientel, they just want more black owned businesses.

i agree that there's probably not enough black-owned businesses in Detroit (i say "probably" because i haven't actually seen any stats on that, but i'll assume it's true). but these businesses wouldn't survive unless they also employ blacks, because we're talking about a city where the overwhelming majority is black. these businesses cater to a population that is majority black, if not enough black people were being employed, these businesses would have not enough revenue because all their customers wouldn't have enough money to buy from them.
I read this article saying that there aren't enough chain retailers in Detroit. Like there are a dearth of starbucks, bestbuys, circuit cities, dominos, pizzas and what not. With that said, some of the non-blacks may hire black people for labor but I am sure there is racism involved in the hiring process (I wouldn't exactly call your local chinese grocery shop an equal oppurtunity employeer). Its highly doubtful that we see alot of black people in higher management but rather we would see blacks being the crux of the laborforce whether it be menial work or some other blue collar job.


i mean give me a break. we're talking about people that probably don't speak English very well, and any credentials they may have might not even be recognised by the government. even under the grand assumption that Asian and Middle Eastern immigrants don't face the amount of job discrimination that blacks do, it's difficult to imagine that Mexican immigrants don't face just as much job discrimination.
I completely agree with you, "stealing" is harsh word to use. There are probably alot of factors why there are so few Black businesses despite a overwhelmingly high black majority. Hopefully, they have some other means of getting Africatown accomplished rather than reverting to segregation.

If theres this much opposition in the YW board, I'd really hate to see what the white conservative down south would say about this. Overall, I think this segregation tactic will backfire on Blacks (all black americans, not just in Detroit) and give more reasons for whites and other non-blacks to discriminate against them in the near future.

[artsfartsyjanet]

I don't they're saying "only blacks are served" or serving an exclusively black clientel, they just want more black owned businesses.
.

Ok, i misunderstood from SWK's comment. I don't have a problems with blacks having more black owned businesses but to blame asians and other minorities for stealing their resources is a scape goating tactic.

[SunWuKong]

I don't they're saying "only blacks are served" or serving an exclusively black clientel, they just want more black owned businesses.

no, they're not saying "only blacks served", but they want to promote businesses that serve a black clientele. i think they're probably trying to model this Africantown after existing ethnic enclaves. but those existing ethnic enclaves meet a need that aren't met anywhere else. their plan is pretty much like opening a Chinatown in a city like HK.


I read this article saying that there aren't enough chain retailers in Detroit. Like there are a dearth of starbucks, bestbuys, circuit cities, dominos, pizzas and what not. With that said, some of the non-blacks may hire black people for labor but I am sure there is racism involved in the hiring process

chains and franchises don't mean there is less racism in the hiring process. most of the time it depends on the hiring manager. on the other hand, if there is racism in the hiring process of these businesses, it would be even more limiting to black employment because they hire so many people. i understand they want to attract more businesses, but what attracts business is a government that leaves the business community alone to do its thing. another thing is that if those chain and francise businesses are ingrained in Detroit already, it would probably be even harder for black business owners to maintain successful businesses. franchises cost a lot more startup capital and chains are corporately owned.

(I wouldn't exactly call your local chinese grocery shop an equal oppurtunity employeer).

oh definitely i agree that many Asian businesses are biased to hire people of their own ethnicities. but one thing is, they tend to hire relatives, and another thing is that they need to hire people that can speak their own languages if they are catering to a clientele of their own ethnicities. you'll see that when an Asian business cater to non-Asian people, like Americanised Chinese restaurants, most if not all the waiters are not Asian.


Its highly doubtful that we see alot of black people in higher management but rather we would see blacks being the crux of the laborforce whether it be menial work or some other blue collar job.

sure, but "higher management" is usually white anyway, which means other minorities are discriminated all the same for those positions. immigrants aren't "stealing" higher management positions. they're "stealing" menial work from blacks.


I completely agree with you, "stealing" is harsh word to use. There are probably alot of factors why there are so few Black businesses despite a overwhelmingly high black majority. Hopefully, they have some other means of getting Africatown accomplished rather than reverting to segregation.

Africantown in a city of Detroit wouldn't work and doesn't make sense. the city is majority black, there are already plenty of businesses to cater to black people. they want to solve the problem of there not being enough black-owned businesses, what they need to do is make it easier for black people to get business loans, because that's where they're discriminated against, for either racial or economic reasons. put in tougher laws to prevent racial discrimination in obtaining business loans, and set up funds to lend to those that don't have good enough credit but workable business ideas. nothing about what they propose makes any business sense. i don't know how they're going to make it a successful project.

[Hiroshi2]

just because the city is 83 percent black doesn't mean that most businesses there are black-owned. well, at least here in birmingham, a city that is 73 percent black, i can't say most businesses even in the black community, are black-owned. ironically enough, lot of asian-owned businesses, i.e. chinese food resturants. for a city that doesn't even have 1 percent of the population that's asian, sure is a lot of asian businesses in the hood.



anyway, i can see why they would want to propose something like this but the way they're going about it is all wrong. but at the same time......................i think black-owned businesses in black communities is something that should definitely promoted. it's perfectly ok for every other ethnicities, even white ones like italians and greeks here in birmingham, to have ethnic businesses and communities, but when black people do stuff like this it's labeled 'reverse racism'.


black businesses need to work on being...........................well, better. can't speak for detroit, but here in birmingham black people in the inner-city will drive out to the suburbs for shit not because they have something you can't buy from a black-owned businesses, but because unfortunately a lot of black businesses are run by some of the most unprofessional motherfuckers around. not to get on all black businesses, many of them are actually a lot friendlier and more personable than white-owned chains but still.

[TB4000]

just because the city is 83 percent black doesn't mean that most businesses there are black-owned. well, at least here in birmingham, a city that is 73 percent black, i can't say most businesses even in the black community, are black-owned. ironically enough, lot of asian-owned businesses, i.e. chinese food resturants. for a city that doesn't even have 1 percent of the population that's asian, sure is a lot of asian businesses in the hood.



anyway, i can see why they would want to propose something like this but the way they're going about it is all wrong. but at the same time......................i think black-owned businesses in black communities is something that should definitely promoted. it's perfectly ok for every other ethnicities, even white ones like italians and greeks here in birmingham, to have ethnic businesses and communities, but when black people do stuff like this it's labeled 'reverse racism'.


black businesses need to work on being...........................well, better. can't speak for detroit, but here in birmingham black people in the inner-city will drive out to the suburbs for shit not because they have something you can't buy from a black-owned businesses, but because unfortunately a lot of black businesses are run by some of the most unprofessional motherfuckers around. not to get on all black businesses, many of them are actually a lot friendlier and more personable than white-owned chains but still.


My mom asked me why I think there are barely any asian owned businesses in white neighborhoods compared to so many in black ones, and all I could do was be honest and say, "cause we don't do shit in our own areas." Whether that has to do with money or just not having the initiative, I don't know. But there needs to be a complete overhaul, most definitely.

[Cipherous]

My mom asked me why I think there are barely any asian owned businesses in white neighborhoods compared to so many in black ones, and all I could do was be honest and say, "cause we don't do shit in our own areas." Whether that has to do with money or just not having the initiative, I don't know. But there needs to be a complete overhaul, most definitely.
I think the reason why we don't see Asian owned businesses in white areas is because white people usually live in either primarily white neighborhoods

1)whether it be in the city (most likely the more ritzy areas)
2)Suburbs (where most of the city whites usually live)
3)in the really poor white areas in rural areas

In most cases, the commercial franchises cater to the your average white american whether it be wal mart in rural areas or be it Giant foods in the suburbs.

There is no way that immigrant asian businesses can really compete with the likes of Giant and Wal mart or any other corporate businesses.

whereas in black neighborhoods, there aren't many commercial shops nearby (atleast from my experience in NYC, DC and Newark). Thus, it carves out a niche for other businesses (whether be it Mexican, arab, chinese or whatever).

[SunWuKong]

My mom asked me why I think there are barely any asian owned businesses in white neighborhoods compared to so many in black ones, and all I could do was be honest and say, "cause we don't do shit in our own areas." Whether that has to do with money or just not having the initiative, I don't know. But there needs to be a complete overhaul, most definitely.

it's simple. because many poor neighborhoods are poorer and getting a location is much cheaper. but the drawback is that your clientele is also poorer and the crime rate is higher.

[TB4000]

it's simple. because many poor neighborhoods are poorer and getting a location is much cheaper. but the drawback is that your clientele is also poorer and the crime rate is higher.
So I assume they aren't warned about that from other family and friends before they set up shop then.

[nonamerasian]

It'd be great to see a plan devised that will encourage people of the community to open businesses in their community and employ those who live in the community. I'd like to see that implemented from the grassroots and privately funded.

Don't even create a new town. Fix up empty lots and stuff. Encourage residents to form their small businesses. Teach people how to become entrepreneurials. Locals, patronize those businesses. Try to get business owners not to move out of the neighborhood as soon as they are successful and to put back into the community.

I don't think this should be race-based, but rather than community-based, especially if the government is playing a part. And since it is in a mostly Black area, making it a community thing will achieve nearly the same goal as the council's. It will get more Black business owners. Non-Blacks would probably benefit from my proposal, too, but it doesn't matter.

My way is the ethically correct way.

The project as proposed by the council--I don't like.

[Hiroshi2]

the thing is they tripped me out is that they called it 'africatown' as if they're going to have real africans there, when really it's gonna be nothing but a bunch of regular-ass, american born negroes. not africans. lol

[nonamerasian]

African-American neighborhoods need a name.

Asian neighborhoods are called Chinatowns, K-towns...

Italian neighborhoods are called Little Italy.

Russian neighborhoods are Little Odessas.

The only thing I've heard African-American neighborhoods called is "ghetto."

[SunWuKong]

So I assume they aren't warned about that from other family and friends before they set up shop then.

of course they were. but poorer areas are some of the only places they can afford to set up shop.

[applehead]

black neighborhoods are usually poor
with high crime rates. (correct me if i'm wrong,
people) the people that
live in these neighborhoods see a need
for black owned businesses in their
community but they're usually without
the financial means to start their own
business.
for them, i think, oh well, that's too bad.

now for the black people who do have
the financial means to open their own
businesses in possibly, black communities
most probably do not live in said community
and therefore do not see a need for black owned
businesses in that area, nor would they want
to risk working in a high crime area.

so what the city of detroit wants is to give gov't
funding for the poor black people who would
like to open shops in their community the
means to do so. it seems like this is quick
fix solution to what the community is really
suffering from.

[asvenus]

^^you got it girlie...this isnt about anyone really trying to make changes, hence why i think we need to look at what these 'american born negroes' are spending their money on and who with, theres similar shit going on in the UK, called 'urban regeneration' (titles are always make me laugh!!), and its all just deflecting away from the big issues and trying to plaster over deep crevices hoping no one will notice...sad sad...and as for these 'towns'...i mean it is 'multiculturalism' gone mad..it just so we can all be put into little boxes and sold/marketed easier for the capitalist economy to exploit...'Africatown'...LOfuckingL

[Hiroshi2]

black neighborhoods are usually poor
with high crime rates. (correct me if i'm wrong,
people) the people that
live in these neighborhoods see a need
for black owned businesses in their
community but they're usually without
the financial means to start their own
business.
for them, i think, oh well, that's too bad.

now for the black people who do have
the financial means to open their own
businesses in possibly, black communities
most probably do not live in said community
and therefore do not see a need for black owned
businesses in that area, nor would they want
to risk working in a high crime area.

so what the city of detroit wants is to give gov't
funding for the poor black people who would
like to open shops in their community the
means to do so. it seems like this is quick
fix solution to what the community is really
suffering from.



Well not all black neighborhoods are bad.................in a city like birmingham where almost every neighborhood is a black neighborhood, and there are still upper, middle-and low-income sections of town, there are a sizable # of good, middle-income, upper-income, well-kept neighborhoods. I'm sure Detroit has them as well. But this is about the poor black neighborhoods.



But the funny thing is, all the black neighborhoods, whether they're rich or poor, are affected by each other, despite the income disparity. Like here in B'ham, a lot of times you'll have a upper-middle income black neighborhood full of black doctors, lawyers, city councilmen, etc. surrounded by ghetto black neighborhoods. But sometimes the crime spills over into the safer black communties, and of course the black kids from the middle/upper-income areas usually hang out with the poor kids from the other neighborhoods anyway, so really all of the black communities, no matter what the income bracket is, are all inter-connected.


But even more well-off black communities lack black-owned businesses. Or at least here they do. From what I understand, cities like Atlanta and Chicago do not suffer from this problem and have plenty of black businesses. But I don't live there, so I can't speak for them. Maybe TB can talk about Chicago?

[deez nuts]

now for the black people who do have
the financial means to open their own
businesses in possibly, black communities
most probably do not live in said community
and therefore do not see a need for black owned
businesses in that area, nor would they want
to risk working in a high crime area.

that's when you koreans come into the picture.

[SunWuKong]

now for the black people who do have
the financial means to open their own
businesses in possibly, black communities
most probably do not live in said community
and therefore do not see a need for black owned
businesses in that area, nor would they want
to risk working in a high crime area.

one important thing should be pointed out. Asian people that open these small businesses in poor neighborhoods are from poor immigrant background. they don't speak good English, nor do they have the credentials for office jobs and such. if they can manage to gather enough money from relatives, they can open a business, otherwise they are stuck working menial jobs in ethnic enclaves. so opening a small store in a poor and high-crime neighborhood is sometimes they only option that some of these families have for sending their kids to college and making real progress in the quality of their livelihoods.

that's when you koreans come into the picture.

i've seen plenty of small Chinese take-outs in poor neighborhoods, too.

[applehead]

one important thing should be pointed out. Asian people that open these small businesses in poor neighborhoods are from poor immigrant background. they don't speak good English, nor do they have the credentials for office jobs and such. if they can manage to gather enough money from relatives, they can open a business, otherwise they are stuck working menial jobs in ethnic enclaves. so opening a small store in a poor and high-crime neighborhood is sometimes they only option that some of these families have for sending their kids to college and making real progress in the quality of their livelihoods.

and that is also, one reason why there are
more asian owned small businesses like that.
most people would rather have a secure 9-5
office job. who wouldn't?

i've seen plenty of small Chinese take-outs in poor neighborhoods, too.

i've seen them too. a lot of them
have bullet proof windows on the counter.