Iraq attacks getting more sophisticated

[yoMAMA]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040916/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_insurgency&cid=540&ncid=716

:frown:

[Beat180]

I guess that old saying "if at first you don't succeed, try, try again" applies...unfortunately

[Bhodi_Li]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040916/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_insurgency&cid=540&ncid=716

:frown:Our brigade was the one that executed ops in Tall'Afar. The battlefield complexity continues to increase.

[yoMAMA]

Our brigade was the one that executed ops in Tall'Afar. The battlefield complexity continues to increase.

Wow....

Stay safe, Bhodi.

We love you :smile:

[Bhodi_Li]

Wow....

Stay safe, Bhodi.

We love you :smile:Thanks man. Things have gotten pretty hairy over here. The sad thing is we've become immune to the attacks psychologically. Mortars land and we barely bat a lash. IED's go off during convoys and we just keep driving, as long as everyone's all right. We actually called in airstrikes. A bunch of our local national workers were killed in DBS' Just another day at the job.

[hooligan]

Thanks man. Things have gotten pretty hairy over here. The sad thing is we've become immune to the attacks psychologically. Mortars land and we barely bat a lash. IED's go off during convoys and we just keep driving, as long as everyone's all right. We actually called in airstrikes. A bunch of our local national workers were killed in DBS' Just another day at the job.
stay safe bhodi. do you think there's a way out of this thing?

[Bhodi_Li]

stay safe bhodi. do you think there's a way out of this thing?The current government is struggling. We've had several key political figures in our province killed. If the US pulls out the country will fall into anarchy, b/c while the insurgent groups are united now under the anti-US banner, they all have very different visions for Iraq afterwards (Kinda like YW's anti-Bush campaign :tongue: ). People that come here discover the media's portrayal of the country isn't as accurate as they would have liked to believe. The basic population just wants security and the basic necessities of life. The population isn't as driven by Muslim fundamentalists as you might think, HOWEVER, b/c life has not improved, disenchantment is taking hold, making them ripe for anti-coalition recruitment.

The coaltion strugges under several areas.

1) Training - ING forces are still getting up to speed. It is debateable whether the disbanding of the Iraqi Army was a good idea or not. A lot of experience was lost with that move and a lot of former-regime leaders have still worked their way back in. However, during one firefight I saw an ING run through a hailstorm of fire to engage the AIF. I was impressed as hell. Of course, then we turned the corner and there were two ING's cringing in the gutter of the street.

2) AIF threat - duh. However, the increased infusion of foreign fighters continues to destabilize the region.

3) US cultural comprehension - the US still thinks like Americans. I find this ironic that a country that is a mix of so many different cultures, struggles to think in terms of a foreign one. Better leverage of tribal leaders and local populace (in other words, better CA expertise, including non-military sources) will result in a reduction of the recruitment pool. Also, the US is a country that has pushed religion out of every public institution it has versus a country where religious leaders have tremendous sway over the population. Is it any surprise that we haven't figured out what makes Iraqi's tick yet?

4) The Iraqi population - Every FOB hires local Iraqi workers. Amongst this crowd, there are AIF personnel that are collecting data. The streets are often empty immediately preceding an ambush. Not always though. Threats to Iraqi's that are viewed by AIF as collaborationists are common. The Iraqi's themselves must determine what form of government they wish to support and then back it. Historically they have followed the side that threatens them the loudest.

5) US public support - Continues to decrease under increased criticism and examination of the President's motives and actions. This fuels AIF claims that the US will pull out, leading to further diminishment of the Iraqi's sense of security. US ground commanders are fighting a mutli-front war. We fight tactically, politically, religiously, and sociologically. The tactical fight we can win. Everything else depends on the support we get from back home and the decisions made by the politicians.

Wow, I went on much more than I intended.

[yoMAMA]

The current government is struggling. We've had several key political figures in our province killed. If the US pulls out the country will fall into anarchy, b/c while the insurgent groups are united now under the anti-US banner, they all have very different visions for Iraq afterwards (Kinda like YW's anti-Bush campaign :tongue: ). People that come here discover the media's portrayal of the country isn't as accurate as they would have liked to believe. The basic population just wants security and the basic necessities of life. The population isn't as driven by Muslim fundamentalists as you might think, HOWEVER, b/c life has not improved, disenchantment is taking hold, making them ripe for anti-coalition recruitment.

The coaltion strugges under several areas.

1) Training - ING forces are still getting up to speed. It is debateable whether the disbanding of the Iraqi Army was a good idea or not. A lot of experience was lost with that move and a lot of former-regime leaders have still worked their way back in. However, during one firefight I saw an ING run through a hailstorm of fire to engage the AIF. I was impressed as hell. Of course, then we turned the corner and there were two ING's cringing in the gutter of the street.

2) AIF threat - duh. However, the increased infusion of foreign fighters continues to destabilize the region.

3) US cultural comprehension - the US still thinks like Americans. I find this ironic that a country that is a mix of so many different cultures, struggles to think in terms of a foreign one. Better leverage of tribal leaders and local populace (in other words, better CA expertise, including non-military sources) will result in a reduction of the recruitment pool. Also, the US is a country that has pushed religion out of every public institution it has versus a country where religious leaders have tremendous sway over the population. Is it any surprise that we haven't figured out what makes Iraqi's tick yet?

4) The Iraqi population - Every FOB hires local Iraqi workers. Amongst this crowd, there are AIF personnel that are collecting data. The streets are often empty immediately preceding an ambush. Not always though. Threats to Iraqi's that are viewed by AIF as collaborationists are common. The Iraqi's themselves must determine what form of government they wish to support and then back it. Historically they have followed the side that threatens them the loudest.

5) US public support - Continues to decrease under increased criticism and examination of the President's motives and actions. This fuels AIF claims that the US will pull out, leading to further diminishment of the Iraqi's sense of security. US ground commanders are fighting a mutli-front war. We fight tactically, politically, religiously, and sociologically. The tactical fight we can win. Everything else depends on the support we get from back home and the decisions made by the politicians.

Wow, I went on much more than I intended.

That is a good analysis.

If only they listened to general shinseki.......... sigh

[Yeahman]

5) US public support - Continues to decrease under increased criticism and examination of the President's motives and actions. This fuels AIF claims that the US will pull out, leading to further diminishment of the Iraqi's sense of security. US ground commanders are fighting a mutli-front war. We fight tactically, politically, religiously, and sociologically. The tactical fight we can win. Everything else depends on the support we get from back home and the decisions made by the politicians.
If only the liberals listened to this.

[Leviticus]

If only the liberals listened to this.

yes more blind obedience

[Yeahman]

Continue to demoralize our troops. Continue to root for the terrorists. Join the opposition to the US. You pay our lip-service to prove your "patriotism" then turn around and spit on their blood and tears. And then you wonder why the military never votes liberal.

[Arex]

Continue to demoralize our troops. Continue to root for the terrorists. Join the opposition to the US. You pay our lip-service to prove your "patriotism" then turn around and spit on their blood and tears. And then you wonder why the military never votes liberal.
Disagreeing with the war and rooting for the terrorists are hardly the same thing. I would think, if you truly supported the troops, and were concerned for their safety and well-being, you would want to ask even more questions regarding exactly why they're over there putting their lives on the line. 1,000+ U.S. casualties is not something that should be simply be accepted without question.

I don't have any hard stats, but I like to think that 90% of the people who question Bush's motives for starting this war understand that our men and women are there to stay for the foreseeable future and WANT them to be victorious so they can return home safely. Scrutinizing exactly why our troops were put in harm's way is the only real means of keeping the govt. accountable for the blood being spilled in the region. Even feigned support for the administration, in an effort to boost morale of the troops, will most likely result in Bush being elected for another four years (telling yourself enough times that everything's peachy will inevitably result in your actually believing that nothing's wrong). Basically, I think people need to realize that taking issues with the judgment of the Commander-in-Chief and the basis for war, and supporting the troops and the war effort are not mutually exclusive sentiments. I don't see the two as being related in the slightest bit.

I often wonder why it is that military families are so quick to put their support behind an administration that clearly does not place a high enough value on the lives of American servicemen and women to actually think the war through before deploying them. I imagine if Bush's daughters were in the military and would have been forced to fight in Iraq, he would have been much less gung ho/reckless about the whole thing. Seems to me that questioning George W. Bush and his motives for war to ensure that stuff like this is not repeated is a better way of honoring the fallen than blindly standing behind the administration that killed them in the first place.

RX

[yoMAMA]

Continue to demoralize our troops. Continue to root for the terrorists. Join the opposition to the US. You pay our lip-service to prove your "patriotism" then turn around and spit on their blood and tears. And then you wonder why the military never votes liberal.

Not supporting the war does not equate to unpatriotic.

Look at the victims of this war, both Americans and the Iraqi....mostly the poor.

And in the case of U.S troops, mostly poor whites and people of color are dying for this unjust and illegal war [according to Koffi Anan, no less].

And then you turn around and look at those chicken hawks, they are the first ones to pull the trigger, but ask them to make sacrifices for their country [when they could], there ain't no way.

This is not patriotic, this is not the American way.

This war sucks, period.

[Yeahman]

Koffi Anan is not the ruler of the world.

I never said that opposition to the war is unpatriotic. I opposed the war. Bush has blood on his hands.
But I know that deep down (or not so deep down) many of you root for the terrorists. You want to see more US failures so you can say "I told you so." You talk about how well the terrorists are doing and how poorly the US troops are doing. You talk about how much worse Iraq is now that the US troops are there. You talk about how nobody likes the troops. You are unwavering in your pessimism. You really try your best to demoralize the troops.

[yoMAMA]

Koffi Anan is not the ruler of the world.

I never said that opposition to the war is unpatriotic. I opposed the war. Bush has blood on his hands.
But I know that deep down (or not so deep down) many of you root for the terrorists. You want to see more US failures so you can say "I told you so." You talk about how well the terrorists are doing and how poorly the US troops are doing. You talk about how much worse Iraq is now that the US troops are there. You talk about how nobody likes the troops. You are unwavering in your pessimism. You really try your best to demoralize the troops.

I don't think pointing out the obvious=rooting for the terrorist.

And no, I don't "root for the terrorist".

That's why the Iraq war is such a grave mistake, it strengthened Iran's influence in the region, opened up the border so it's now a terrorism Disneyland, and diverted vital resources away from Afghanistan, where bin laden is supposed to be hiding, and where the perpetrators of 9/11 are headquartered, and most importantly, we squandered all of our goodwill after 9/11, when we had support from all over the world. We also gave al qeda breathing room, and gave them free propoganda materials for years to come.

And making secret oil deals with the Saudi royal family [one of the most opressive and brutal regimes on the planet] is not all that patriotic either, nor is is it helping our cause of "democratizing" the middle east.

[Yeahman]

It's not pointing out the obvious. It's the liberal pessimistic slant on everything done by a Republican.

[yoMAMA]

It's not pointing out the obvious. It's the liberal pessimistic slant on everything done by a Republican.

57 people got blown up yesterday in baghdad alone.

How are we "liberals" gonna "slant" it?

everything's going according to the plan?

Mission accomplished?

taste the freedom?

[Yeahman]

I hope you weren't expecting a bloodless war.
Thanks to our troops, Iraq will be a much better place. It will take lots of time and lives. But it is noble work. And I support the troops in this effort.

Supporting the troops does not only mean you don't want them to die. If that's the case then I support the Iraqis who want America out too. Supporting the troops means actual moral support that they succeed in their fight.

[yoMAMA]

I hope you weren't expecting a bloodless war.
Thanks to our troops, Iraq will be a much better place. It will take lots of time and lives. But it is noble work. And I support the troops in this effort.

Supporting the troops does not only mean you don't want them to die. If that's the case then I support the Iraqis who want America out too. Supporting the troops means actual moral support that they succeed in their fight.

If you mean people getting blown up everyday, no water, no electricity, scarcity of everything, terrorist runs the show [the insurgents, wether they are foreign or Iraqi, controls several towns, most notably Fallujah].

Yes, thanks to the invasion, Iraqi is "safter".

[Yeahman]

I rest my case, Mr. Glass-completely-empty.
BTW nice job with the pic in your sig. I'm sure our troops will be glad to know that people back home think that they're failures.

[yoMAMA]

I rest my case, Mr. Glass-completely-empty.
BTW nice job with the pic in your sig. I'm sure our troops will be glad to know that people back home think that they're failures.

They are not failures, they are some of the bravest young men and women of our country [even several members of YW]. And I salute them for their bravery and sacrifice.

However, this war is a failure, because the people running this war have failed the soliders.

In no way or form do I consider the soliders to be failures. They, afterall, have to obey whatever order from the top.

[Mr.Lum]

It's not pointing out the obvious. It's the liberal pessimistic slant on everything done by a Republican.

I have a pessimistic slant on everything done in malace or aggression. Democrat, Republican, Iraqi or American.

Thanks to our troops, Iraq will be a much better place. It will take lots of time and lives. But it is noble work. And I support the troops in this effort.

Right wing optomisim is laughable. The more and more the leadership says it's getting better and on and on, I think about a wife who tells herself "it will get better" as her husband continues to beat her. They use freedom in the same way a teenage girl uses "like um".

BTW nice job with the pic in your sig. I'm sure our troops will be glad to know that people back home think that they're failures.

LOL. It comments on the situation, not the troops. Soldiers don't fail, leaders fail.

[onnihs]

civil war in iraq.

it's inevitable.

[Yeahman]

LOL. It comments on the situation, not the troops. Soldiers don't fail, leaders fail.
Yet it's a picture of a soldier, not a leader. I don't have any problem with the pic in your sig.

They are not failures, they are some of the bravest young men and women of our country [even several members of YW]. And I salute them for their bravery and sacrifice.

However, this war is a failure, because the people running this war have failed the soliders.

In no way or form do I consider the soliders to be failures. They, afterall, have to obey whatever order from the top.
A soldier is trying his best to servie his country by keeping the peace in Iraq. Your pic is of a soldier drowning in quicksand. What better way is there to depite the failure of the soldiers?
Of course all soldiers are brave and they all sacrifice, including the enemy. But do you support them?

[yoMAMA]

Yet it's a picture of a soldier, not a leader. I don't have any problem with the pic in your sig.


A soldier is trying his best to servie his country by keeping the peace in Iraq. Your pic is of a soldier drowning in quicksand. What better way is there to depite the failure of the soldiers?
Of course all soldiers are brave and they all sacrifice, including the enemy. But do you support them?

Again, you are drawing an analogy between against the war and for terrorist.

And no, I don't support the terroristm and I am against the war.

Support the troops, bring them home.

[yoMAMA]

3 kurdish hostages beheaded today (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20040919/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_040919202617)

:frown:

[Mr.Lum]

Yet it's a picture of a soldier, not a leader. I don't have any problem with the pic in your sig.


The leaders make quagmires. And they get the troops stuck in bad places. The leaders aren't effected. The soldier is. That's the reality. Donnie and Colin aren't out there fighting.

[pfc beansprout]

~fuck that...those who say being against the war is unpatriotic...eat a dick...i'm hell against this bullshit war and i'm here.....last year i was OUTRAGED w/us goin into this shit...but now i know me being over here enables another soldier to come home and...i hate to say it...we can't just "pull out"...but.....i'm still adamantly against this bullshit administration to the fullest...uncovering their spins and slants from last year...i'm all FOR IT

[yoMAMA]

~fuck that...those who say being against the war is unpatriotic...eat a dick...i'm hell against this bullshit war and i'm here.....last year i was OUTRAGED w/us goin into this shit...but now i know me being over here enables another soldier to come home and...i hate to say it...we can't just "pull out"...but.....i'm still adamantly against this bullshit administration to the fullest...uncovering their spins and slants from last year...i'm all FOR IT

Stay safe, PFC.

You are a true hero :smile:

[Yeahman]

We are talking about the justification for war here. I opposed the war.
But we went to war. Now what?

The leaders make quagmires. And they get the troops stuck in bad places. The leaders aren't effected. The soldier is. That's the reality. Donnie and Colin aren't out there fighting.
Then why the pic of a soldier? Like I said I have no problem with your pic, just yomama's. Critisize the Administration for putting us in this situation. But do you really want to tell the troops that their efforts are in vain?

Again, you are drawing an analogy between against the war and for terrorist.

And no, I don't support the terroristm and I am against the war.

Support the troops, bring them home.
I am drawing no such analogy. I am against the war and the terrorists. I am not against the troops. Expand on "support the troops." Do you mean that you merely want them to live? In that case I support every human being. But do you support their efforts?

[yoMAMA]

We are talking about the justification for war here. I opposed the war.
But we went to war. Now what?


Then why the pic of a soldier? Like I said I have no problem with your pic, just yomama's. Critisize the Administration for putting us in this situation. But do you really want to tell the troops that their efforts are in vain?


I am drawing no such analogy. I am against the war and the terrorists. I am not against the troops. Expand on "support the troops." Do you mean that you merely want them to live? In that case I support every human being. But do you support their efforts?

I support the troops. I hope they defeat the insurgency. I hope no one will die in Iraq from tomorrow on and ever after. I hope Iraqis can take charge of their own country, and not living under another "saddam lite"....you know what I mean.

I hope all Iraqi children can have the hope to become whatever they want when they grow up.

However, The way this administration spin things are just unreal....this weekend alone more than 300 people died in bombs, beheadings, shootings....etc :mad:

And they still insist "all is going well in Iraq". "can you taste the freedom?"

They have no exit plan, the insurgency has only gotten stronger, and Iraq is now a terrorist shanghai and they run the show in several cities.

Now you tell me, by placing our troops in unwinnable situations, that's supporting our troops?

[Yeahman]

I hope they defeat the insurgency.
Then shouldn't you give them some moral encouragement instead of posting a pic basically saying that they're failing?

[yoMAMA]

Then shouldn't you give them some moral encouragement instead of posting a pic basically saying that they're failing?

the solider is a metaphor about the situation, it does not imply any solider as failures, only the ones planning the war as FAILURES for putting them into this mess.

[Yeahman]

Then post a pic of Bush drowning. A soldier is a soldier. A pic of a soldier failing doesn't imply that a soldier is failing? Might as well post a pic of a dead solider being dragged through the streets. Or one being beaten or tortured.

[Mr.Lum]

Then why the pic of a soldier? Like I said I have no problem with your pic, just yomama's. Critisize the Administration for putting us in this situation. But do you really want to tell the troops that their efforts are in vain?

Did you read the post? I have not made any reference to my sig pic, I'm talking about Yomamas. I do think that their efforts are in vain because I think that the war they are fighting is 1) unnecicary and 2) imoral as well as 3) not quite winnable. I don't think they are failures but I think their war is which isn't their fault.

[Bhodi_Li]

the solider is a metaphor about the situation, it does not imply any solider as failures, only the ones planning the war as FAILURES for putting them into this mess.Sorry buddy, but that's not how most soldiers would see that pic. As soldiers, our leaders are the commanders that we serve under. Are these the leaders that you are referring to? I assume you refer to the politicians, but just want clarification.

One general comment. Soldiers take a lot of pride in what they're doing. Being told that their sacrifices are in vain is a slap in the face, especially if it's from someone who is living in the States all safe. One of my soldiers went home on leave and was at a bar. A group of college students (why is it always college students?) approached him and told him how they thought the war was unjust. They told him how the President lied and that he was fighting a war for nothing. How do you think that made him feel? Why would you approach a soldier who just wants to relax for two weeks before going back to the war and tell him that everything he's doing is for nothing? My opinion, b/c this makes people protesting feel better. It makes them feel like they're getting the truth out there. That they're making a difference (at the expense of the soldier's morale, but so beit)

Our soldiers are not stupid, they understand that there is a lot of debate over the origins of the war. However, none of that information lessens the job they're doing here. There have been and will continue to be hiccups along the way, but my two biggest pet peeves are Armchair Generals and people who belittle what soldiers give up for their country. (yoMAMA, I'm not saying this applies to you)

At times I truly believe that the US public has no understanding of what we go through. At times, I question whether the lifestyle that we defend and sacrifice for has not yielded a bloated, lazy, self-centered society that can't see past it's own self-interests. But then, we get hit by a mortar or IED and I put that aside.

[yoMAMA]

Sorry buddy, but that's not how most soldiers would see that pic. As soldiers, our leaders are the commanders that we serve under. Are these the leaders that you are referring to? I assume you refer to the politicians, but just want clarification.

One general comment. Soldiers take a lot of pride in what they're doing. Being told that their sacrifices are in vain is a slap in the face, especially if it's from someone who is living in the States all safe. One of my soldiers went home on leave and was at a bar. A group of college students (why is it always college students?) approached him and told him how they thought the war was unjust. They told him how the President lied and that he was fighting a war for nothing. How do you think that made him feel? Why would you approach a soldier who just wants to relax for two weeks before going back to the war and tell him that everything he's doing is for nothing? My opinion, b/c this makes people protesting feel better. It makes them feel like they're getting the truth out there. That they're making a difference (at the expense of the soldier's morale, but so beit)

Our soldiers are not stupid, they understand that there is a lot of debate over the origins of the war. However, none of that information lessens the job they're doing here. There have been and will continue to be hiccups along the way, but my two biggest pet peeves are Armchair Generals and people who belittle what soldiers give up for their country. (yoMAMA, I'm not saying this applies to you)

At times I truly believe that the US public has no understanding of what we go through. At times, I question whether the lifestyle that we defend and sacrifice for has not yielded a bloated, lazy, self-centered society that can't see past it's own self-interests. But then, we get hit by a mortar or IED and I put that aside.


Bhodi, I'm implying the politicians, espeically from the civilian side, who armchaired us into this mess.

[draft dodging neo cons, cough, cough]

However, I do realize that the picture in my signature can be seen as a slap in the face to our troops, who are risking their lives everday.

My apologies if it was seen as mocking the soliders, which was no way my intention.

[deez nuts]

My apologies if it was seen as mocking the soliders, which was no way my intention.


hippy scum!

[yoMAMA]

hippy scum!

:rolleyes:

[Yeahman]

Hey yomama, that pic in your sig is on the cover of Time!
Aparently there is quite a bit of noise being made about the pic.
"I call on John Kerry to demand that MoveOn.org take down their ad depicting a defeated American soldier." - Bob Dole

[Mr.Lum]

LOL because America never looses.

[tommyhtown]

5) US public support - Continues to decrease under increased criticism and examination of the President's motives and actions. This fuels AIF claims that the US will pull out, leading to further diminishment of the Iraqi's sense of security. US ground commanders are fighting a mutli-front war. We fight tactically, politically, religiously, and sociologically. The tactical fight we can win. Everything else depends on the support we get from back home and the decisions made by the politicians.

If only the liberals listened to this.



Here is what General John Abizaid had to say about the debate about Iraq War. BTW, General Abizaid is in charge of the war in Iraq.

MR. RUSSERT: General, I know you don't want to be involved in politics, but we are in the middle of a presidential campaign and I want to get your reaction to some of the charges and countercharges from your standpoint on the ground. John Kerry said "This is the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time." President Bush says those comments embolden the enemy and send the wrong message to the troops. Do you believe that the debate about Iraq in this country emboldens the enemy and sends the wrong message to the troops?

GEN. ABIZAID: Tim, I believe that debate in our country is what our country is all about. And if we're successful out here, debate will be part of the future of Afghanistan, it'll be part of the future of Iraq and it will be part of the future of all of the Middle East. As a matter of fact, as I look around the Middle East, we're going through a revolutionary times right now and debate is happening everywhere. So that there is a debate is certainly a good thing for the peoples of the region. That there's a debate back home is a good thing for our people.

Meet the Press Transcript (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/6106292/)

[SunWuKong]

One general comment. Soldiers take a lot of pride in what they're doing. Being told that their sacrifices are in vain is a slap in the face, especially if it's from someone who is living in the States all safe. One of my soldiers went home on leave and was at a bar. A group of college students (why is it always college students?) approached him and told him how they thought the war was unjust. They told him how the President lied and that he was fighting a war for nothing. How do you think that made him feel? Why would you approach a soldier who just wants to relax for two weeks before going back to the war and tell him that everything he's doing is for nothing? My opinion, b/c this makes people protesting feel better. It makes them feel like they're getting the truth out there. That they're making a difference (at the expense of the soldier's morale, but so beit)

while i agree that those college kids are stupid, how do you feel about people in general who do think that the war is unjust? i mean, personally, i'm not going to go up to some soldier on leave at a bar and just start telling him the war is unjust, but people do get into the debate about the war one way or another. it could even start from a friendly conversation. that being said, i would be lying if i said that i think the war was justified. and i do think that the soldiers over there are fighting over something that they shouldn't be fighting for. that is not to say that i wish any of the soldiers harm, in fact, i wish they would all return safe and sound. i don't mean to demoralise any of the soldiers, but there are ideological differences between me and pro-war opinions. i don't think the war is justified. should i lie in order to make the soldiers feel better?

Our soldiers are not stupid, they understand that there is a lot of debate over the origins of the war. However, none of that information lessens the job they're doing here. There have been and will continue to be hiccups along the way, but my two biggest pet peeves are Armchair Generals and people who belittle what soldiers give up for their country. (yoMAMA, I'm not saying this applies to you)

At times I truly believe that the US public has no understanding of what we go through. At times, I question whether the lifestyle that we defend and sacrifice for has not yielded a bloated, lazy, self-centered society that can't see past it's own self-interests. But then, we get hit by a mortar or IED and I put that aside.

you're absolutely right. those of us that have never been there have no idea what you're going through everyday. but what is at disagreement is not what the soldiers go through everyday, it's US foreign policy and how the administration is handling the war.

[Yeahman]

Here is what General John Abizaid had to say about the debate about Iraq War. BTW, General Abizaid is in charge of the war in Iraq.

MR. RUSSERT: General, I know you don't want to be involved in politics, but we are in the middle of a presidential campaign and I want to get your reaction to some of the charges and countercharges from your standpoint on the ground. John Kerry said "This is the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time." President Bush says those comments embolden the enemy and send the wrong message to the troops. Do you believe that the debate about Iraq in this country emboldens the enemy and sends the wrong message to the troops?

GEN. ABIZAID: Tim, I believe that debate in our country is what our country is all about. And if we're successful out here, debate will be part of the future of Afghanistan, it'll be part of the future of Iraq and it will be part of the future of all of the Middle East. As a matter of fact, as I look around the Middle East, we're going through a revolutionary times right now and debate is happening everywhere. So that there is a debate is certainly a good thing for the peoples of the region. That there's a debate back home is a good thing for our people.

Meet the Press Transcript (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/ID/6106292/)
Did I say that we shouldn't debate?

i don't think the war is justified. should i lie in order to make the soldiers feel better?
I don't think the war was justified either and I'm sure there are troops in Iraq who think the same. But there's a difference between debating the reasons for war and calling the current situation a useless failure that has left Iraq and the world worse off.
Now that we're in war, a military failure is ultimately a failure of our troops in Iraq. The left loves to point out the failures and critisize the victories.

Nobody wants the soldiers to die. Saying that you want them to come home safely is stating the obvious. But do you want them to succeed or fail in their mission? If you want them to succeed, then let's support them. If you want them to fail then don't pretend to support them (not directing any of this at you. Just stating my opinions in general).

[tommyhtown]

Did I say that we shouldn't debate?


By supporting Bhodi_Li's point that we should not criticize President Bush on his actions in saying 'If only the liberals listened to this,' I'd take that as a 'yes' since I don't see how anyone can have a healthy debate without critiquing the opposing view.

[SunWuKong]

Now that we're in war, a military failure is ultimately a failure of our troops in Iraq. The left loves to point out the failures and critisize the victories.

in no way do i think that a failure in the war is a failure of our troops in Iraq. i think it's a failed war because of how the administration has handled the war.

Nobody wants the soldiers to die. Saying that you want them to come home safely is stating the obvious.

sometimes it really doesn't seem like i'm stating the obvious when pro-war people seem to think that people like me has ill wishes for the troops in Iraq.

But do you want them to succeed or fail in their mission? If you want them to succeed, then let's support them. If you want them to fail then don't pretend to support them (not directing any of this at you. Just stating my opinions in general).

for one thing, i think they've failed already. i don't call over ten thousand Iraqi civilian deaths a success. i just want them to come home.

[Kuchana]

Koffi Anan is not the ruler of the world.

I never said that opposition to the war is unpatriotic. I opposed the war. Bush has blood on his hands.
But I know that deep down (or not so deep down) many of you root for the terrorists. You want to see more US failures so you can say "I told you so." You talk about how well the terrorists are doing and how poorly the US troops are doing. You talk about how much worse Iraq is now that the US troops are there. You talk about how nobody likes the troops. You are unwavering in your pessimism. You really try your best to demoralize the troops.

Ok even though I'm not a liberal but isn't that a little too far-fetched to say that many liberals are rooting for the terrorists? In my way of thinking, I believe that some liberals just don't understand the implications of withdrawing the troops from Iraq in the present future nor the importance of terrorism. Iraq needs to be fixed and we should not abandon it.

They are not failures, they are some of the bravest young men and women of our country [even several members of YW]. And I salute them for their bravery and sacrifice.

However, this war is a failure, because the people running this war have failed the soliders.

In no way or form do I consider the soliders to be failures. They, afterall, have to obey whatever order from the top.

I don't think you should blame the administration entirely for the failure of this war. I think there are other factors to consider in this war. For one the terrorists themselves. Remember this is only part of the process.

I hope you weren't expecting a bloodless war.
Thanks to our troops, Iraq will be a much better place. It will take lots of time and lives. But it is noble work. And I support the troops in this effort.

This is one of the reasons why I agree with the war. I also have to say it's not only a noble effort but a sacrifice as well, and a difficult one.

I support the troops. I hope they defeat the insurgency. I hope no one will die in Iraq from tomorrow on and ever after. I hope Iraqis can take charge of their own country, and not living under another "saddam lite"....you know what I mean.

I hope all Iraqi children can have the hope to become whatever they want when they grow up.

However, The way this administration spin things are just unreal....this weekend alone more than 300 people died in bombs, beheadings, shootings....etc :mad:

And they still insist "all is going well in Iraq". "can you taste the freedom?"

They have no exit plan, the insurgency has only gotten stronger, and Iraq is now a terrorist shanghai and they run the show in several cities.

Now you tell me, by placing our troops in unwinnable situations, that's supporting our troops?

Hope is a pointless emotion if you're not willing to sacrifice as well, which is why I have both because I believe both are essential in winning this war and against terrorism.

At times I truly believe that the US public has no understanding of what we go through. At times, I question whether the lifestyle that we defend and sacrifice for has not yielded a bloated, lazy, self-centered society that can't see past it's own self-interests. But then, we get hit by a mortar or IED and I put that aside.

Don't lose hope Bhodi! My thoughts are with you. Please be safe and remember that at least I think of your sacrifice and others and I'm grateful for it yet concerned as well. It saddens me everytime I hear about a soldier that has died. But I still remember that this is part of the sacrifice.

for one thing, i think they've failed already. i don't call over ten thousand Iraqi civilian deaths a success. i just want them to come home.

coming home as in when exactly? what is your timetable? immediately? a month from now? a yer? do you think that by bringing the troops home, the problem of iraq be solved? a civil war will disrupt if we leave. of course everyone wants to bring the troops home and that goes for both republicans, democrats, who have you. but it's a matter of time concern that people differ.

[ism]

I don't think you should blame the administration entirely for the failure of this war. I think there are other factors to consider in this war. For one the terrorists themselves. Remember this is only part of the process.Unfortunately, the administration led us to believe these factors were easily taken care of. Ken Adelman, advisor to Cheney, wrote in The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A1996-2002Feb12?language=printer) that Iraq "would be a cakewalk." In that same article, he refutes estimates that the war would require 100,000 to 200,000 troops. In an interview with MSNBC (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3080244/), Cheney claimed that requiring 100,000 troops after military operations cease is "an overstatement." Current deployment (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/coalition/deployment/byweek.html) stands at 248,000.

Knowing how severely the administration miscalculated the war makes it even tougher to see friends and family being deployed. I'm glad you can separate "support of our troops" from "support of our administration's actions." If the administration could realize that its failures does not mean the troops failed and admit some responsibility, we can all move on and get this mission accomplished.

[Mr.Lum]

I don't think you should blame the administration entirely for the failure of this war. I think there are other factors to consider in this war. For one the terrorists themselves. Remember this is only part of the process.



It is their fault. They shouldn't get into shit they cannot finnish. It's not the terrorists fault because without the invasion, they wouldn't be there. They made a problem for the Iraqi and American people. IT was Pandora's fault the evil came out of the box.

Hope is a pointless emotion if you're not willing to sacrifice as well, which is why I have both because I believe both are essential in winning this war and against terrorism.


Needless sacrifice is a pointless action. This war is a needless and pointless sacrifice.

coming home as in when exactly? what is your timetable? immediately? a month from now? a yer? do you think that by bringing the troops home, the problem of iraq be solved? a civil war will disrupt if we leave.

I wouldn't be suprised if that happened anyway. Pulling out is irresponsible but so was invading it in the first place. Am I rooting for America right now? No, I was about a year or so ago. Right now I'm rooting for Iraq tho. fuck imperialists. I'm tired of rooting for a country that is continueously in the wrong just because I live there. Wrong is wrong. Always.

[Chu Chi]

I support the victims of this war.

The:

killed

wounded

maimed

burned

paralyzed

blinded

homeless

hungry

thirsty

diseased

orphaned

widowed...



The people suffering these conditions are victims.


ALL victims qualify for help.

No matter their station in life.


CC

[Mr.Lum]

ALL victims qualify for help.

No matter their station in life.


I agree.

[yoMAMA]

the victims of this war are the poor from both sides.

[Kuchana]

It is their fault. They shouldn't get into shit they cannot finnish. It's not the terrorists fault because without the invasion, they wouldn't be there. They made a problem for the Iraqi and American people. IT was Pandora's fault the evil came out of the box.

Needless sacrifice is a pointless action. This war is a needless and pointless sacrifice.

All the more reason to stay and fix the problem! Oh righhhht. You're saying it's not the terrorists' fault for participating in the beheadings and bombings and senseless killings of both U.S. soldiers, Iraqi civilians, and others???

A needless sacrifice can be turned into a worthy one to preserve the freedom in Iraq and for Iraq.


I wouldn't be suprised if that happened anyway. Pulling out is irresponsible but so was invading it in the first place. Am I rooting for America right now? No, I was about a year or so ago. Right now I'm rooting for Iraq tho. fuck imperialists. I'm tired of rooting for a country that is continueously in the wrong just because I live there. Wrong is wrong. Always.

Unfortunately undertaking such an action would not solve the problems. And if we did, more havoc would occur than imaginable. Pulling out is not only irresponsible but despicable. You're rooting for Iraq as in whom? The civilians? The government? The insurgents? The U.S. isn't continuously in the wrong as you think but we can always do something to right the wrong.

[Bhodi_Li]

Don't lose hope Bhodi! My thoughts are with you. Please be safe and remember that at least I think of your sacrifice and others and I'm grateful for it yet concerned as well. It saddens me everytime I hear about a soldier that has died. But I still remember that this is part of the sacrifice. Thank you Kim, you're very sweet and I really appreciate it.

[Mr.Lum]

All the more reason to stay and fix the problem! Oh righhhht. You're saying it's not the terrorists' fault for participating in the beheadings and bombings and senseless killings of both U.S. soldiers, Iraqi civilians, and others???

It is not their fault because they wouldn't be there without American disruption.

Unfortunately undertaking such an action would not solve the problems. And if we did, more havoc would occur than imaginable. Pulling out is not only irresponsible but despicable. You're rooting for Iraq as in whom? The civilians? The government? The insurgents? The U.S. isn't continuously in the wrong as you think but we can always do something to right the wrong.


I don't think you understand what I wrote. Its unrealistic to pull out. I've said that. But it was not noble or just to go in there. I am rooting for the Iraqi people, not the fake interim government. The US is constantly in the wrong. The only reason it is in the right in IRaq, Yugolsavia, Vietnam and elsewhere is because they tell the media they are and most people are simple and believe it. Unjust war is unjust war. This is an unjust war. It is needless slaughter. Just because you call it "freedom" doesn't make it so.

A needless sacrifice can be turned into a worthy one to preserve the freedom in Iraq and for Iraq.


A needless sacrifice can be made a worthy one through propaganda and coercive patriotism. Freedom? They can't even watch the fucking news unless America says it ok. Freedom as defined byfroeign occupiers and liers. Can't let those Arabs think for themselves, otherwise they might not bow down to our wishes. Cooperate or die. And these American right wing Christians say Mohammed converted by the sword? LOL.

[Bhodi_Li]

A needless sacrifice can be made a worthy one through propaganda and coercive patriotism. Freedom? They can't even watch the fucking news unless America says it ok. Freedom as defined byfroeign occupiers and liers. Can't let those Arabs think for themselves, otherwise they might not bow down to our wishes. Cooperate or die. And these American right wing Christians say Mohammed converted by the sword? LOL.Wow! You are really bitter. You must be serving in Iraq right now.

[SunWuKong]

coming home as in when exactly? what is your timetable? immediately? a month from now? a yer? do you think that by bringing the troops home, the problem of iraq be solved? a civil war will disrupt if we leave. of course everyone wants to bring the troops home and that goes for both republicans, democrats, who have you. but it's a matter of time concern that people differ.

6 months to a year would be good. i like that Kerry feels he can bring them home in 6 months, but i think that's a little too optimistic.

sure, a civil war might happen in Iraq if we leave, but the only thing that'll prevent a civil war in Iraq is if American troops are stationed there for years and years to come. resentment in the Middle East toward Western powers haven't subsided yet ever since Israel was carved out by the Western powers, military occupation of Iraq is certain to only exacerbate the problem, because many Middle Easterners see the Palestine-Israel issue as the same thing as the American occupation of Iraq. meanwhile people are dying. you can say it's "worth the sacrifice", but then again, do you really think you'd say that if about 10,000 American lives have been lost? well, Iraqi deaths have been estimated to be around 10,000, which actually happens to be more than the lives taken by terrorism in the last 30 years. there's no way for us to "fix" things. don't you understand? the chaos is largely caused by the fact that they don't want American presence there. the presence of foreign troops in Iraq is the problem that needs to be fixed.

[Bhodi_Li]

6 months to a year would be good. i like that Kerry feels he can bring them home in 6 months, but i think that's a little too optimistic.

sure, a civil war might happen in Iraq if we leave...... That would be an even bigger morale crusher for the soldiers because they would perceive themselves as having failed their mission (regardless of whether it was the administration's fault or not). There are so many similairities between this war and a previous war, with everything from low public opinion to a no-win political situation on the ground to an elusive enemy that blends in with the general population. Hopefully we can continue to make the same mistakes we did before. That way we're consistent.

[SunWuKong]

That would be an even bigger morale crusher for the soldiers because they would perceive themselves as having failed their mission (regardless of whether it was the administration's fault or not).

that is regrettable, but i personally feel that pulling out soon is something we should do. what's worse than a morale crusher for the soldiers is more unnecessary deaths on both sides. i think a civil war is inevitable unless we have troops in Iraq for years and years to come. hell, it may be even longer than all these years we've had troops in Korea, because we're not facing one visible and solid political entity here like previously.

and besides, we can always invade Iraq again. (kidding)

[yoMAMA]

that is regrettable, but i personally feel that pulling out soon is something we should do. what's worse than a morale crusher for the soldiers is more unnecessary deaths on both sides. i think a civil war is inevitable unless we have troops in Iraq for years and years to come. hell, it may be even longer than all these years we've had troops in Korea, because we're not facing one visible and solid political entity here like previously.

and besides, we can always invade Iraq again. (kidding)

I agree.

Let's end this bloody nighmare ASAP, before it goes out of control [Iraqi civil war looks inevitable], and before more of our troops and Iraqi civilians are getting killed/blown up in an unjust war based on lies.

[Bhodi_Li]

that is regrettable, but i personally feel that pulling out soon is something we should do. what's worse than a morale crusher for the soldiers is more unnecessary deaths on both sides. i think a civil war is inevitable unless we have troops in Iraq for years and years to come. hell, it may be even longer than all these years we've had troops in Korea, because we're not facing one visible and solid political entity here like previously.

and besides, we can always invade Iraq again. (kidding)It's a difficult decison. Everyone looks at the motives for the war, but if you're here that's kind of a moot point b/c it doesn't change the present situation. I work with Iraqi citizens daily and I've met a lot of Iraqi's that are just trying to make a living and met a lot that really do want to see the new government succeed. I've seen Iraqi troops fight alongside (or occassionally behind LOL) us in firefights. There IS potential for success. I don't believe that we should try to mold their government into a US style system (the elections in Afghanistan rely heavily on the decisions of the tribal elders), but how exciting is it to think that someday this country, which has known nothing but war for decades, could one day be standing on it's own feet and able to fight off internal threats. If you talk to the Iraqi's, they are not angry that Sadaam was overthrown. They are angry that things haven't gotten better. On the other hand, everyone is looking for instantaneous results in one of the most politically complex regions in the world. I take great pride in having served with my unit in a time of war as well as taking part in forming a new government.

On the issue of civilian casualties, they are horrible. Innocent bystanders are killed in every conflict that we have. They occur daily. I've seen so many government officials get murdered that I wonder why are the Iraqi's even trying. Why don't they just put their hands up in the air and say, "Fuck it." Then I realize how courageous they really are for working in the government. Don't get me wrong, there is so much corruption over here it's unbelievable, but there are days when I say, "We're really doing it. We're changing a country." The bottom line is that this war is not as one-sided as everyone likes to make it out to be. It takes a great deal of intestinal fortitude to see through the darkest hours, but if we persevere we can make it. It's not about an exit strategy, it's about mission accomplishment. I'll be damned if I'm going to spend a year here and see the mission fail!

I don't ever pretend that my view is that of the average soldier, and hope that others do not take my comments as such. However, I will never tell my soldiers they are fighting for nothing or for a lost cause. Most soldiers realize that there is a good chance that this conflict will last a long time. Soldiers from the 10th Mountain Division are looking at their third (and in some cases fourth) rotation to the Middle East. I think to leave Iraq early would be a mistake.

[Kuchana]

It's a difficult decison. Everyone looks at the motives for the war, but if you're here that's kind of a moot point b/c it doesn't change the present situation. I work with Iraqi citizens daily and I've met a lot of Iraqi's that are just trying to make a living and met a lot that really do want to see the new government succeed. I've seen Iraqi troops fight alongside (or occassionally behind LOL) us in firefights. There IS potential for success. I don't believe that we should try to mold their government into a US style system (the elections in Afghanistan rely heavily on the decisions of the tribal elders), but how exciting is it to think that someday this country, which has known nothing but war for decades, could one day be standing on it's own feet and able to fight off internal threats. If you talk to the Iraqi's, they are not angry that Sadaam was overthrown. They are angry that things haven't gotten better. On the other hand, everyone is looking for instantaneous results in one of the most politically complex regions in the world. I take great pride in having served with my unit in a time of war as well as taking part in forming a new government.

On the issue of civilian casualties, they are horrible. Innocent bystanders are killed in every conflict that we have. They occur daily. I've seen so many government officials get murdered that I wonder why are the Iraqi's even trying. Why don't they just put their hands up in the air and say, "Fuck it." Then I realize how courageous they really are for working in the government. Don't get me wrong, there is so much corruption over here it's unbelievable, but there are days when I say, "We're really doing it. We're changing a country." The bottom line is that this war is not as one-sided as everyone likes to make it out to be. It takes a great deal of intestinal fortitude to see through the darkest hours, but if we persevere we can make it. It's not about an exit strategy, it's about mission accomplishment. I'll be damned if I'm going to spend a year here and see the mission fail!

I don't ever pretend that my view is that of the average soldier, and hope that others do not take my comments as such. However, I will never tell my soldiers they are fighting for nothing or for a lost cause. Most soldiers realize that there is a good chance that this conflict will last a long time. Soldiers from the 10th Mountain Division are looking at their third (and in some cases fourth) rotation to the Middle East. I think to leave Iraq early would be a mistake.

That's the spirit! Believe in the effort and make the sacrifice and progress will be made. Maybe not instantously but it wil be made:) I feel enlightened hope after reading your post Mike. Thanks:)

It is not their fault because they wouldn't be there without American disruption.

It is their fault moreso. Their ideology is twisted and worse than that of the U.S.[/quote]



I don't think you understand what I wrote. Its unrealistic to pull out. I've said that. But it was not noble or just to go in there. I am rooting for the Iraqi people, not the fake interim government. The US is constantly in the wrong. The only reason it is in the right in IRaq, Yugolsavia, Vietnam and elsewhere is because they tell the media they are and most people are simple and believe it. Unjust war is unjust war. This is an unjust war. It is needless slaughter. Just because you call it "freedom" doesn't make it so.

Forgive me. I thought you meant we had to pull out. Err what does Yugoslavia have to do with it? Freedom doesn't come easily I'm afraid. Even the U.S. has learned this lesson all too hard.



A needless sacrifice can be made a worthy one through propaganda and coercive patriotism. Freedom? They can't even watch the fucking news unless America says it ok. Freedom as defined byfroeign occupiers and liers. Can't let those Arabs think for themselves, otherwise they might not bow down to our wishes. Cooperate or die. And these American right wing Christians say Mohammed converted by the sword? LOL.

Believe in what you will. I still believe in the validity of the sacrifice and one has to be made. How the hell do you know since you're not even there???? Of course Arabs can think for themselves. They are not stupid by any means but they have lived in a dictatorship under Saddam for so many years. Who can blame them if they are uncertain about how to progress now with freedom in their hands?

don't you understand? the chaos is largely caused by the fact that they don't want American presence there. the presence of foreign troops in Iraq is the problem that needs to be fixed.

how do you know that? read what mike's written. he's there and knows firsthand how a lot of the iraqis think and feel. they do want a government. they believe in the importance of having one and they do want security but that doesn't mean that they want the u.s. to leave immediately. until security is established, i don't think they want the americans to leave. the presence of terrorists there is a major problem in the elections.

[Mr.Lum]

Believe in what you will. I still believe in the validity of the sacrifice and one has to be made. How the hell do you know since you're not even there???? Of course Arabs can think for themselves. They are not stupid by any means but they have lived in a dictatorship under Saddam for so many years. Who can blame them if they are uncertain about how to progress now with freedom in their hands?

You're not there either are you? You say Arabs can think for themselves, and yet every attempt made by the Arabs to formulate a means to either liberate or protect themselves from the West, (including America) is wrong for you people. The reason the Baath parties were able to come to power was because the people were sick of despotic prowestern monarchies and dictatorships and wanted to rule in their interests. And when that didn't work, they turned back to ISlam and Maronite nationalism which has not liebrated them whatsoever. And now the are back to where they started with a Westerner with a gun to their head telling them "do as I say or you die". That's why we invaded IRaq and not Saudi Arabia or Egypt. Because they were independent of us. Same reason we are planning to invade Syria and Iran. They will not bow to us. IT has nothing to do with freedom or democracy or terrorism. IT is simply that they do not want to be further raped by Westerners. And this provisional government is no more legitimate than was Saddam or is Assad or Mubarak. America hates Arab Nationalism because it compromises American authority and Israeli security. America hated Saddam because he compromises American authority. That's why they hated Nasser (a much better leader and ruler) and why they looooove the Saudis (who's ideology does not allow for rebellion against any ruler at any time no mater what the conditions) who have no legitamacy what so ever.



It is their fault moreso. Their ideology is twisted and worse than that of the U.S.



[/QUOTE]

They were let in by foolish American ideology.



Forgive me. I thought you meant we had to pull out. Err what does Yugoslavia have to do with it? Freedom doesn't come easily I'm afraid. Even the U.S. has learned this lesson all too hard.



Yugoslavia was Clinton's imperialist adventure. Iraq is Bush's.

[SunWuKong]

It's a difficult decison. Everyone looks at the motives for the war, but if you're here that's kind of a moot point b/c it doesn't change the present situation. I work with Iraqi citizens daily and I've met a lot of Iraqi's that are just trying to make a living and met a lot that really do want to see the new government succeed. I've seen Iraqi troops fight alongside (or occassionally behind LOL) us in firefights. There IS potential for success. I don't believe that we should try to mold their government into a US style system (the elections in Afghanistan rely heavily on the decisions of the tribal elders), but how exciting is it to think that someday this country, which has known nothing but war for decades, could one day be standing on it's own feet and able to fight off internal threats. If you talk to the Iraqi's, they are not angry that Sadaam was overthrown. They are angry that things haven't gotten better. On the other hand, everyone is looking for instantaneous results in one of the most politically complex regions in the world. I take great pride in having served with my unit in a time of war as well as taking part in forming a new government.

On the issue of civilian casualties, they are horrible. Innocent bystanders are killed in every conflict that we have. They occur daily. I've seen so many government officials get murdered that I wonder why are the Iraqi's even trying. Why don't they just put their hands up in the air and say, "Fuck it." Then I realize how courageous they really are for working in the government. Don't get me wrong, there is so much corruption over here it's unbelievable, but there are days when I say, "We're really doing it. We're changing a country." The bottom line is that this war is not as one-sided as everyone likes to make it out to be. It takes a great deal of intestinal fortitude to see through the darkest hours, but if we persevere we can make it. It's not about an exit strategy, it's about mission accomplishment. I'll be damned if I'm going to spend a year here and see the mission fail!

well, one thing that i disagree on is that the mission can succeed. with the number of casualties on both sides, and especially the sheer number of civilian casualties on the Iraqi side, i already see it as a failure. yes, i know that people will die in a war - but this is why i never supported going to war in the first place. with Bush's plan being pretty much "more of the same", i think people will only continue dying at the hands of the US military using American tax dollars. that's why i don't think it's worth it now, and i didn't think it was worth it to begin with.

I don't ever pretend that my view is that of the average soldier, and hope that others do not take my comments as such. However, I will never tell my soldiers they are fighting for nothing or for a lost cause.

of course. to do otherwise would be unprofessional and as someone in a leadership position, it would also be unethical. i understand what you've been saying.

how do you know that? read what mike's written. he's there and knows firsthand how a lot of the iraqis think and feel. they do want a government. they believe in the importance of having one and they do want security but that doesn't mean that they want the u.s. to leave immediately. until security is established, i don't think they want the americans to leave. the presence of terrorists there is a major problem in the elections.

well, with all due respect to Mike, his view is probably biased. not that i'm saying my own view is not biased either, but i can just as easily say that this Iraqi soccer player (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3584242.stm) represents how Iraqis think and feel when he said:
"We don't wish for the presence of the Americans in our country. We want them to go away."

the media can't really spin that. that's a direct quote. but of course, he and his teammates may not really represent how Iraqis feel.


personally i trust that the US Coalition Authority has done its homework:
A poll by the U.S. Coalition Provisional Authority in May 2004 found that 80 percent of Iraqis say they have "no confidence" in either the U.S. civilian authorities or in the coalition forces, and 55 percent would feel safer if U.S. and other foreign troops left the country immediately.
http://www.fpif.org/papers/0406costsofwar.html
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=%22Coalition+Provisional+Authority%22+%22no+conf idence%22

i mean, if not for the fact that so many people have died and if not for the fact that there are clear evidence that many Iraqis do not want American presence, i might even support the war. but that is not the case.

A needless sacrifice can be made a worthy one through propaganda and coercive patriotism. Freedom? They can't even watch the fucking news unless America says it ok. Freedom as defined byfroeign occupiers and liers. Can't let those Arabs think for themselves, otherwise they might not bow down to our wishes. Cooperate or die. And these American right wing Christians say Mohammed converted by the sword? LOL.
Believe in what you will. I still believe in the validity of the sacrifice and one has to be made. How the hell do you know since you're not even there???? Of course Arabs can think for themselves. They are not stupid by any means but they have lived in a dictatorship under Saddam for so many years. Who can blame them if they are uncertain about how to progress now with freedom in their hands?

oh, is that why Al-Jareeza has been banned in Iraq? :rolleyes:

[Kuchana]

You're not there either are you? You say Arabs can think for themselves, and yet every attempt made by the Arabs to formulate a means to either liberate or protect themselves from the West, (including America) is wrong for you people. The reason the Baath parties were able to come to power was because the people were sick of despotic prowestern monarchies and dictatorships and wanted to rule in their interests. And when that didn't work, they turned back to ISlam and Maronite nationalism which has not liebrated them whatsoever. And now the are back to where they started with a Westerner with a gun to their head telling them "do as I say or you die". That's why we invaded IRaq and not Saudi Arabia or Egypt. Because they were independent of us. Same reason we are planning to invade Syria and Iran. They will not bow to us. IT has nothing to do with freedom or democracy or terrorism. IT is simply that they do not want to be further raped by Westerners. And this provisional government is no more legitimate than was Saddam or is Assad or Mubarak. America hates Arab Nationalism because it compromises American authority and Israeli security. America hated Saddam because he compromises American authority. That's why they hated Nasser (a much better leader and ruler) and why they looooove the Saudis (who's ideology does not allow for rebellion against any ruler at any time no mater what the conditions) who have no legitamacy what so ever.

While you or I may not be there, I believe in the cause. What Arabs are you referring to? The insurgents? If so, I don't look at them as a legitimate source, considering they bomb people all over the place. Yeah that's the answer to the solution. :rolleyes:

My people???? Clarify that. Is that meant to be an insult? If so I don't appreciate it. As for the Baath party and Saddam, they came to power after a period of consistent instability where there were countless military coups. This is what you call progress???

Funny, America hated Saddam because he compromised American authority yet we let him stay in power.

Aren't you being overly pessimistic? Nevermind. Freedom, democracy, and terrorism are important concerns to address despite how you may feel about them.

I see it more as America dislikes terrorism, a trait that extreme Islamic fundamentalists share. The only reason why we're not going to break off our relationship with Saudia Arabia is due to $, $, and $.

What's the point of arguing anyways? It's obvious you're not going to change your mind nor I for that matter.


They were let in by foolish American ideology.

Again, that doesn't make the terrorists any less dangerous nor justify their horrific acts.

Yugoslavia was Clinton's imperialist adventure. Iraq is Bush's.

You're calling Yugoslavia Clinton's imperialist adventure? Thousands of Muslims were murdered before he ever made the decision to send in troops. His response was too little, too late in my book.

well, with all due respect to Mike, his view is probably biased. not that i'm saying my own view is not biased either, but i can just as easily say that this Iraqi soccer player (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3584242.stm) represents how Iraqis think and feel when he said:


the media can't really spin that. that's a direct quote. but of course, he and his teammates may not really represent how Iraqis feel.


oh, is that why Al-Jareeza has been banned in Iraq? :rolleyes:

Then according to that, most people are biased. It's inevitable.

Al-Jareeza? Now that is one biased source :P If there was a more balanced media represented there, I'd jump for joy. :smile:

[Mr.Lum]

While you or I may not be there, I believe in the cause. What Arabs are you referring to? The insurgents? If so, I don't look at them as a legitimate source, considering they bomb people all over the place. Yeah that's the answer to the solution.


And Americans do what exactly.....?

My people???? Clarify that. Is that meant to be an insult? If so I don't appreciate it. As for the Baath party and Saddam, they came to power after a period of consistent instability where there were countless military coups. This is what you call progress???


Instablity because of Western oriented and unpopular regimes. The Baath Party is a military dictatorship in Syria as was in Iraq. I am not a fan of Baath ideology out side of the banner of "unity freedom socialism" but that's not what they do. Initially there was quite a bit of progess but things have deteriorated because the West is reluctant to accept new dictators who don't hop on their laps as equals. There was more progess than the alternative offered. "My people?" I do not recall.
Funny, America hated Saddam because he compromised American authority yet we let him stay in power.



Because as we are seeing today, we have no way to replace him.


I see it more as America dislikes terrorism, a trait that extreme Islamic fundamentalists share. The only reason why we're not going to break off our relationship with Saudia Arabia is due to $, $, and $
Yes. And because they bow to us. Not only that but they and their despicable form of Islam teach to not rebel and not to think for ones self. That's how we like it.

Again, that doesn't make the terrorists any less dangerous nor justify their horrific acts.


That doesn't make the American any less imperial or justify it's horrific and hypocritical acts. You seem to ignore the fact that we invaded, we are agressors we are foreigners which gives us less legitimacy than it does these so called "terrorists".

You're calling Yugoslavia Clinton's imperialist adventure? Thousands of Muslims were murdered before he ever made the decision to send in troops. His response was too little, too late in my book.
It was not to defend Muslims. It was to bring the Balkans under america's wing and show force near Russia. The stratigic and mineral wealth offered by that region is not conincidental. It's purposefull. And the Muslims were not the only victoms, they were murdering with everyone else. The coverage of that episode is about the same as that of Darfur right now, oversimplified and mostly innacurate.

Al-Jareeza? Now that is one biased source :P If there was a more balanced media represented there, I'd jump for joy.

HAve you ever watched Al-Jazeera? IT's the only nongovernment or Saudi run news source (one of them) in the region. It's biased towards Arabs(it is mainly a pan Arab in it's out look) which Americans don't like because it does not portray them in the light of being liberating Gods but more what they are, foreign occupiers. HAve you seen Al-Hara? The American "news" station? It's propaganda. Nobody wants to see that shit. I thought it was time for feedom? A free press is essential to democracy is it not?

What Arabs are you referring to? The insurgents?


The general population. Most of the Baathists, nationalists and antiwestern leaders and fighters are from the peasantry and from the middle class. They are more representative of their countries than some one like Crown Prince of Abdulla or Iyad Allawi.

[SunWuKong]

Then according to that, most people are biased. It's inevitable.

Al-Jareeza? Now that is one biased source :P If there was a more balanced media represented there, I'd jump for joy. :smile:

and all the Western media sources over there right now aren't biased? hey, if they're going to ban Al-Jareeza, they should also ban Fox News over there. it's just as biased as Al-Jareeza, after all.

the point isn't even whether or not they're biased. the point is that Lum is correct, Iraqis aren't even allowed to get news unless the US government approves of the news.

[pfc beansprout]

as another soldier cat who's here...lemme add that this place sucks...nothin against the iraqi people, culture, whatever...we shouldn't have been in this mess, and those who say we should/needed to be, GO ENLIST and come here and serve...see how "gung ho" u are then...yeah, i know, moot point, but i'm here, doin my duty and it sucks...i'ma keep sayin it, those who beat war drums need to get outta their comfy seats at home and see what really goes on in their decisions...........

[Bhodi_Li]

as another soldier cat who's here...lemme add that this place sucks...nothin against the iraqi people, culture, whatever...we shouldn't have been in this mess, and those who say we should/needed to be, GO ENLIST and come here and serve...see how "gung ho" u are then...yeah, i know, moot point, but i'm here, doin my duty and it sucks...i'ma keep sayin it, those who beat war drums need to get outta their comfy seats at home and see what really goes on in their decisions...........Of course it sucks here, it's war. Find me someone who says war is fun and I'll show you someone who's never been in a war. Nevertheless, it's great to hear from another soldier stationed here is Iraq.