Mushroom Cloud Seen After N.Korea Explosion

[DragonKnight]

Oh boy...

Source (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&e=1&u=/nm/20040912/ts_nm/north_korea_explosion_dc)


SEOUL (Reuters) - A mushroom cloud up to 2.5 miles in diameter was seen after an explosion in a remote area of North Korea (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22North%0AKorea%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=North%20Korea)) near the border with China, Yonhap news agency reported on Sunday, quoting sources in Beijing.

The South Korean news agency said Thursday's blast in Kimhyungjik county in Yanggang province appeared to much worse than a train explosion that killed at least 170 people in April.

South Korean intelligence officials said they were monitoring the report, but declined detailed comment.

[truMp]

im thinking it is the thing we all dread.

[nonamerasian]

Scary.

[Craig]

It's all over the news sources right now, but the information is all pretty scant. Let's see Dubya be all gung ho about a North Korean invasion now.

Supposedly, the explosion left a crater large enough to be seen by satellite (other sources) and was "near" a military base with missiles. Didn't feel like posting another article yet, without significant further details.

[yoMAMA]

wow.....was there an accident, or is north korea testing nuclear weapons?

:frown:

:eek:

[Beat180]

Oh crap...here we go again. I wonder if dubyah's gonna call north koreans muslims too...

[yoMAMA]

Oh crap...here we go again. I wonder if dubyah's gonna call north koreans muslims too...


Nah...last time I checked, there's no oil in the korean penisula.

[DragonKnight]

An update:


SEOUL (Reuters) - A huge explosion rocked North Korea (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22North%20Korea%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=North%20Korea)) near the border with China three days ago, producing a mushroom cloud that sparked speculation Pyongyang might have tested an atomic weapon, Yonhap news agency reported on Sunday.

The South Korean agency said the blast on Thursday in Kimhyungjik county in Ryanggang province appeared much bigger than a train explosion that killed at least 170 people in April.

South Korean Unification Minister Chung Dong-young sought to play down an atomic link, telling South Korean reporters after a National Security Council meeting that Seoul's assessment so far was the explosion was unlikely to have been part of the communist North's nuclear arms ambitions.

"There are some foreign media reporting such possibilities, but we are judging at the moment the explosion is unrelated to such reports," Yonhap quoted him as saying. Chung chairs the National Security Council, which advises President Roh Moo-hyun.

There was no immediate reaction from neighboring China. In Washington, a U.S. official said it was unclear what had happened and there were various possible explanations. Tokyo took a similar line.

"We've heard the report, and we are checking the details, including what's in the report itself," said Japanese Foreign Ministry spokesman Akira Chiba.

Thursday was the 56th anniversary of North Korea's founding. The reclusive communist state often stages extravaganzas and big events to mark important anniversaries.

South Korean intelligence officials said they were monitoring the news, but declined detailed comment on the reports, which were based on "informed sources" in Beijing and in Seoul. Yonhap did not give a description of the blast site.

ACCIDENT OR TEST?
The reports surfaced as South Korea (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://news.search.yahoo.com/search/news?fr=news-storylinks&p=%22South%20Korea%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=web-storylinks&p=South%20Korea)), Japan, China, Russia and the United States were seeking to persuade North Korea to return to the negotiating table to discuss its nuclear weapons ambitions. The North, which threatened at earlier talks to test an atomic bomb, has said it doubts more negotiations will help.

"There were rumors that the explosion was much bigger than the one at Ryongchon train station and the United States is showing a big interest as the blast was seen from satellites," Yonhap quoted an unnamed source in Beijing as saying.

The cause had yet to be determined but the source said Washington was not ruling out the possibility that the blast may be linked to a nuclear test.

China was the last country to set off an above-ground nuclear test, in 1980. It carried out its last nuclear test in 1996 and has since observed a self-imposed moratorium on testing.

Yonhap quoted other unnamed officials as saying it was probably not an accident, although it also quoted one source in Washington as saying it was unlikely to have been a nuclear test. It quoted another source as saying it could be a forest fire.

Yonhap reported a mushroom cloud up to 2.5 miles in diameter was spotted after the blast in remote Ryanggang province in the country's far northeast near to known missile bases.

The New York Times reported in its Sunday editions the Bush administration had received recent intelligence reports that some experts believed could indicate North Korea was preparing to conduct its first nuclear weapons test explosion.

Train wagons exploded at the Ryongchon railway station on April 22, killing 170 and injuring an estimated 1,300. The blast was believed to have been caused by a train loaded with oil and chemicals hitting a power line. (Additional reporting by Arshad Mohammed in Washington and Isabel Reynolds in Tokyo)

[Mr.Lum]

Oh. Good. Lord.

[Craig]

Weird, except for the Yonhap news agency, I am not seeing any stories on other Asian sites (Korea, China, Japan, etc.)

Btw, the following is the English language version of the Yonhap News Agency :

http://english.yna.co.kr/

--------

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/09/12/nkorea.blast/index.html

North Korea cloud 'not nuke blast'
Sunday, September 12, 2004 Posted: 1:05 AM EDT (0505 GMT)

SEOUL, South Korea (CNN) -- A large cloud that appeared over North Korea in satellite images several days ago was not the result of a nuclear explosion, according to a U.S. official.

South Korea's Yonhap news agency is reporting a huge explosion shook North Korea's northernmost province on Thursday producing a mushroom cloud over two miles (4 km) wide.

The blast coincided with the anniversary of North Korea's founding on Sepember 9 when various military activities are staged.

The U.S. official said the cloud could be the result of a forest fire.

South Korea's Unification Minister Chung Dong-yong said the government was aware of the reports and is checking them.

"I have no information about the size of the damage of the explosion," he said on Sunday, according to Yonhap.

Chung also said he believed there was no correlation between the explosion and reports of North Korea preparing for a possible nuclear test.

The New York Times reported on Saturday that U.S. President George W. Bush and his top advisers recently received intelligence reports that could indicate North Korea is preparing its first nuclear test, citing senior officials with access to the intelligence.

None of North Korea's known nuclear sites are in the country's northernmost provinces.

Yonhap reported the explosion happened in Yanggang province along the Chinese border, the site of Yongjori Missile Base -- a large facility with an underground missile firing range.

At least 161 people were killed in an explosion at Ryongchon Railway Station in April. It took three days for Pyongyang to break its silence on the blast.

[Mr.Lum]

The U.S. official said the cloud could be the result of a forest fire.


????????

[Craig]

????????Dude, don't know. Check out the following website for an example of a "mushroom cloud" because of a forest fire :

http://www.recorder.ca/cp/national/030805/n080503A.html

--------

These articles are being modified as we type. Here is the latest from the BBC which is much different than what was online 30 minutes ago. I am still amazed at how this story has spend like a wildfire across a few American forums that I know, but yet, I see no sign of the story on multiple Asian and international sources.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/asia-pacific/3648794.stm

Big blast reported in North Korea


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40061000/gif/_40061342_north_korea_map203_2.gif
A big explosion rocked a northern province of North Korea near the border with China last week, South Korea's Yonhap news agency has reported.

The blast is said to have happened last Thursday, as North Korea marked the 56th anniversary of its founding.

Yonhap quoted a diplomatic source in Seoul as saying a large mushroom cloud was spotted in Yanggang province.

South Korea's Unification Minister has reportedly played down the possibility that it was a nuclear weapons test.

Diplomatic officials in Washington are also quoted as saying the nature of the blast is unclear.

The diplomatic source in Seoul said the mushroom cloud, with a radius of up to four kms (2.5 miles), was spotted in Yanggang province's Kimhyungjik county.

The area is mountainous and thinly-populated, and home to a major military base, according to reports.

A crater caused by the blast could be seen from a satellite, an unnamed official in Beijing was quoted by Yonhap as saying.

'Rumours'

Unification Minister Chung Dong-young - Seoul's top negotiator with North Korea - said South Korea was trying to get confirmation of the explosion and its effects.

"We have received an unsubstantiated report on traces of an explosion in North Korea," he told reporters.

A spokesman for South Korea's President Roh Moo-hyun told Reuters news agency it "appears to be on the level of rumours at this point".

The BBC's Charles Scanlon in Seoul says the nervousness follows recent reports from Washington warning North Korea could be preparing a nuclear test.

North Korea claims to have developed what it calls a nuclear deterrent, and threatened several times to test a device. It is little surprise that the news should come late and leak out piecemeal from North Korea, one of the world's most secretive societies, says our correspondent. In April, an explosion at a railway station in North Korea killed more than 150 people - but Pyongyang only admitted the incident three days later.

[VV o n g B a]

nyt article here (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/12/international/asia/12nuke.html?hp) mentions that american intelligence agencies have been worried that n korea was ramping up a nuke test in the past 4 weeks. they only mention the cloud in brackets at the very end. looks like they might have been sitting on this story for a few days.

[Yeahman]

The New York Times reported on Saturday that U.S. President George W. Bush and his top advisers recently received intelligence reports that could indicate North Korea is preparing its first nuclear test, citing senior officials with access to the intelligence.
I saw the NY Times report and that's the most damning evidence IMO. The article written before word of the explosion got out, says that it is believed that North Korea is preparing for a nuclear test.

So either it was a nuclear test, a hoax made to look like a nuclear test, or a really really really big coincidence.

[Craig]

Since when does the US media sit on extremely timely stories that will undoubtedly sale papers, generate interest, get the blessing of the current government, etc (especially when the competition may be them to the punch) ? Maybe Americans are so hell bent on believing that North Korea is evil and vile that an unsubstantiated rumour can start something like this spreading across Western sources.

[Yeahman]

The NY Times would never publish inaccurate information. :wink:

[Craig]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,132129,00.html

North Korea Might Have Tested Nuke
Sunday, September 12, 2004

SEOUL, South Korea — A large explosion occurred in the northern part of North Korea (search), sending a huge column of smoke into the air on an important anniversary of the communist regime, a South Korean news agency reported Sunday.

The South Korean government said it was trying to confirm the report of an explosion at 11 a.m. on Thursday in Yanggang province near the border with China.

The Yonhap news agency carried conflicting reports from unidentified sources, with one in Washington saying the incident could be related to a natural disaster such as a forest fire. It also cited a diplomatic source in Seoul as raising the possibility of an accident or a nuclear test.

Although North Korea is believed to be developing nuclear weapons, international experts would likely have been able to detect the test if one had occurred several days ago.

"We understand that a mushroom-shaped cloud about 3.5- to 4-kilometer (2.2 miles to 2.5 miles) in diameter was monitored during the explosion," the source in Seoul told Yonhap. Yonhap described the source as "reliable."

Thursday was the anniversary of North Korea's founding on Sept. 9, 1948. Leader Kim Jong Il (search) uses the occasion to stage performances and other events to bolster loyalty among the impoverished North Korean population.

Experts have speculated that North Korea might use a major anniversary to conduct a nuclear-related test, but one analyst said an open test, as opposed to one below ground, would be hard in such a small country.

"It's difficult to say, but it won't be easy for North Korea to conduct a nuclear test without resulting in massive losses of its own people," said Koh Yu-hwan, a North Korea expert in Seoul. "I think there is a more possibility that it is a simple accident, rather than a deliberate nuclear test."

Yonhap's diplomatic source in Seoul said the explosion took place "not far" from a military base that holds ballistic missiles. North Korea, which has a large missile arsenal and more than a million soldiers, is dotted with military installations.

The damage and crater left by the explosion in Kim Hyong Jik county was big enough to be noticed by a satellite, a source in Beijing told Yonhap.

After a National Security Council meeting, South Korea's Unification Minister Chung Dong-young (search) said the government was trying to confirm the report about the explosion. Asked about the possibility of a nuclear test, he said:

"I believe some foreign media made such reports. However, currently, we believe that it is not related to such reports."

On Saturday, North Korea said recent revelations that South Korea conducted secret nuclear experiments involving uranium and plutonium made the communist state more determined to pursue its own nuclear programs.

The South Korean experiments, conducted in 1982 and 2000, were likely to further complicate the already stalled six-nation talks aimed at dismantling the North's nuclear development. South Korea has said the experiments were purely for research and did not reflect a desire to develop weapons.

On April 22, train wagons at a railway station exploded in the North Korean town of Ryongchon, killing 160 people and injuring an estimated 1,300, according to some estimates. The blast was believed to have been sparked by a train laden with oil and chemicals that hit power lines.

The explosion on Thursday was bigger than the Ryongchon train explosion, which devastated a wide area, Yonhap said.

[John0101]

holy shit, N.Korea basically said we have nukes to the whole world.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I dunno, assuming it was a real test, wouldn't it be really stupid for N Korea to do this/let this happen?

[VV o n g B a]

Since when does the US media sit on extremely timely stories that will undoubtedly sale papers, generate interest, get the blessing of the current government, etc (especially when the competition may be them to the punch) ? Maybe Americans are so hell bent on believing that North Korea is evil and vile that an unsubstantiated rumour can start something like this spreading across Western sources.maybe. but i do remember the gov't asking newspapers to sit on stories b/f and they have complied. the timing of this story seems too coincidental.

[hooligan]

"it's the end of the world as we know it. it's the end of the world as we know it. it's theend of the world as we know it and i feel fine."

[Yeahman]

Powell Says N. Korea Blast Not Nuclear (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20040912/ap_on_re_as/nkorea_explosion)

[truMp]

I dunno, assuming it was a real test, wouldn't it be really stupid for N Korea to do this/let this happen?

Not really, they just want to show the world that they harness the powers of nukes so that everybody better start respecting them. Trust me, the US wouldn't go to war with a nation which has nuclear powers and a maniacal dictator because it would just create massive demise; unless NK does something really stupid to piss off the world. ALTHOUGH , it would be stupid because all of their allies would probably be very shocked and relations with them will probably falter. Well overall, other nations will respect you, but they'll all become your enemy at the same time.

Powell Says N. Korea Blast Not Nuclear (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20040912/ap_on_re_as/nkorea_explosion)

I believe Powell doesn't have confirmed intel on whether or not the explosion was nuclear or not yet. Just look at it, what type of explosion, other than nuclear, could possibly create a mushroom cloud of that proportion, AND fashion a crater large enough to be seen by satellites? I'll stick to my belief that there was probably a falter with nuclear material causing this accident and that the US heads are trying to miniscule the situation to keep the nation at calm.

[bluemonq]

the thing is, i don't think china would want anybody next door with nukes, especially one with unpredicatble leadership...

[tint]

China would like a nuclear free Korean pennisula, but people need to stop believing the lies about Kim Jung Il. The guy is not unpredictable or maniac. As Madeline Albright describes him to be intelligent and rationale. The most dangerous leader is the one sitting in the White House.

[yoMAMA]

China would like a nuclear free Korean pennisula, but people need to stop believing the lies about Kim Jung Il. The guy is not unpredictable or maniac. As Madeline Albright describes him to be intelligent and rationale. The most dangerous leader is the one sitting in the White House.

But he does starve his own people [mostly because of bad agricultural policy], while he lives in a life style of luxury and hollywood films. [forbidden to his own citizens, too]

Also, all the $$$ goes to the military.

[Faithless]

nyt article here (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/12/international/asia/12nuke.html?hp) mentions that american intelligence agencies have been worried that n korea was ramping up a nuke test in the past 4 weeks. they only mention the cloud in brackets at the very end. looks like they might have been sitting on this story for a few days.
.
I like this part ...
Mr. Bush, while declaring he would not "tolerate" a nuclear North Korea, has insisted that his approach of involving China, Russia, Japan and South Korea in a new round of talks with the North is the only reasonable way to force the country to disarm. He has refused to set the kind of deadline for disarmament that he set for Saddam Hussein.
Why can't he use the same tough-talk with NK?

[bluemonq]

China would like a nuclear free Korean pennisula, but people need to stop believing the lies about Kim Jung Il. The guy is not unpredictable or maniac. As Madeline Albright describes him to be intelligent and rationale. The most dangerous leader is the one sitting in the White House.
unpredictable != crazy. it just means that we have some trouble understanding what he *really* wants because either a) he *could* be crazy or b) we have trouble seeing things from his point of view...

[truMp]

.
Why can't he use the same tough-talk with NK?

cause he can't tough talk with a nation that has an "actual" military prescense that could incite a war which would cause massive casualities on both sides. plus, it's an election year so he doesn't want to committ to anything irrational that may hinder his poll standings.

[BeTheReds]

But he does starve his own people [mostly because of bad agricultural policy], while he lives in a life style of luxury and hollywood films. [forbidden to his own citizens, too]

Also, all the $$$ goes to the military.


Replace the starving part with no nationalized healthcare and skyrocketing unemployment and you've just described the situation in America.

[John0101]

Replace the starving part with no nationalized healthcare and skyrocketing unemployment and you've just described the situation in America.

i much rather be living in the United States then in N.Korea, and also I wouldn't want to be poor in either country.

[BeTheReds]

i much rather be living in the United States then in N.Korea, and also I wouldn't want to be poor in either country.

Me too, but that's not good enough to just be living there. What is needed is change!

[Yeahman]

^ We also need to stop spreading this left-wing propoganda.

Replace the starving part with no nationalized healthcare and skyrocketing unemployment and you've just described the situation in America.
Unemployment was at 6.3% last year and is now at 5.4%. That's a skyrocket? Maybe an upside-down skyrocket.

[truMp]

^ We also need to stop spreading this left-wing propoganda.


Unemployment was at 6.3% last year and is now at 5.4%. That's a skyrocket? Maybe an upside-down skyrocket.

lol i like how the neo-con quiz labeled you as a "liberal"

[Azn Retribution]

I did some checking on the weather satellites with my weather-geek friend to try and see the pics and for some reason all the pictures they take while they pass over korea are deleted or not available. Just those ones in specific. I thought that was fairly interesting.

also for perspective I believe the hiroshima explosions were about 3 miles wide.

As for their cover story...
It is possible to create a mushroom explosion without a nuclear bomb. its just not as likely. Especially with NK's tech. I also highly doubt its a forest fire.... Especially if its a crater large enough to be seen from space... Also a chernoybl style overload couldnt have created one either.

Lets just pray that the size of the cloud was exagerated.. but if it can be seen from space.... =/

also Kim's not insane. or at least the people who truly run the administration aren't. They rely on "on the edge" negotiation tactics to get what they want. Which is probably more $$$ and aid from the US. Its also his style to do it on an important NK Anniversary.

The most confusing thing about it however is why an above-ground test? Most tests are done underground to at least try and present a semblance of covert operations. As well as prevent fallout. Also I doubt it because I believe china would not be very happy at all about nuclear fallout drifting over to their side of the border(as this is somewhere close to it I believe).

and They do not want to anger china.. china is possibly their only psuedo-friend left.


Either way we're screwed for not dealing with NK earlier and just completely ignoring them.
The only way out of this is for actual true international cooperation with Russia/China instead of dictating terms... Unfortunately I dont think our administration is capable of doing that.

They'll probably try gunboat politics again.

NK has the missile technology to hit japan and they can obliterate most of SK's population centers with just artillery. Hell there are estimates that they can hit some of western US now as well.

As for the Iraq argument.. There is actual proof(WOW! Im surprised too) that iraq was in the process of purchassing guided missile manufacturing systems and control systems from nk that put them within striking range of the US.


but still most of our military is playing police-man in IRAQ so we would need a draft to have any sort of presence there..

I believe china might take independent action.. as a new member of the WTO and wanting to retain its legitimacy. However I think they'll try and play it the best way they can and perhaps make a grab for taiwan if at all possible.

and lets not even discuss Iran who continue to break the UN sanctions and will most likely have their own nuclear capabilities online by 2008. Are we gonna ignore them too?

//tinfoil hat.



http://www.tu-harburg.de/rzt/rzt/it/sofie/albert14.gif

I know not what weapons world war III will be fought with but I do know World War IV shall be fought with sticks and stones. - Albert Einstein.

[hooligan]

^ We also need to stop spreading this left-wing propoganda.


Unemployment was at 6.3% last year and is now at 5.4%. That's a skyrocket? Maybe an upside-down skyrocket.
unemployment when bush entered the office in 2000 was @ 4%

http://data.bls.gov/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?data_tool=latest_numbers&series_id=LNS14000000

[Azn Retribution]

If there's one thing Ive learned with statistics.. its all relative.
Facts are our unemployment rates are some of the lowest they've ever been. a 5 or 6% is still, historically-speaking, bad ass.

a particular president has less of a direct effect on economy than you might think.

If anything I wish there was a viable third party candidate.
Bush sucks.

NK: Hey look at us! We are making nukes(WMDs)and we don't care if you know!
Bush: your a member of the evil axis. oh look there's iraq they aren't letting UN inspectors look at them. They must have WMDs.
Iraq: No we don't
NK: We're launching a missile that shows we have capability to hit japan and possibly western US!
Iran: *whistles innocently* We are using our nuclear enrichment facilities for... civilian purposes. yes.
Bush: *ignoring NK and Iran* Iraq must have WMD! Pre-emptive strike! You tried to kill my daddy!

Kerry's socialized medicine plans scare me as a future MD. (Think of a hospital turning into the DPS.)
and both parties have senators that are corporate whores that love to stomp on our rights *cough* leahy *cough* hatch *cough* lieberman *cough*.
also kerry looks to be only marginally better than bush with his foreign policy... which isnt a good thing.

[Craig]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/asiapcf/09/13/nkorea.blast/index.html

N. Korea: Demolition caused cloud
Monday, September 13, 2004 Posted: 9:26 AM EDT (1326 GMT)

LONDON, England (CNN) -- North Korea has said a large mushroom cloud seen over the nation in satellite images was the result of a deliberate demolition of a mountain for a power plant.

After several days of speculation over the cause of the massive cloud, North Korean Foreign Minister Paek Nam Sun offered the explanation in a meeting with British Foreign Office Minister Bill Rammell.

"The foreign minister told Rammell that the large explosion several days ago was part of a planned demolition of a mountain for the construction of a hydroelectric plant," according to a statement Monday from the British Foreign Office.

"North Korea's foreign minister says suggestions that it was anything else are lies," the statement said.

Rammell asked that international diplomats be allowed to inspect the site, and the Foreign Office said North Korea has agreed to the request.

North Korea's vice foreign minister for Europe, Kung Sok Ung, said Britain's ambassador to Pyongyang, David Slinn, could go to the site as soon as Tuesday.

"Having asked the vice foreign minister this morning for our ambassador and other ambassadors to be allowed to visit the scene of the explosion, I am very pleased the North Koreans have agreed to the request," the UK Press Association quoted Rammell as saying.

The South Korean news agency Yonhap reported seeing a mushroom cloud 4 kilometers (2 miles) wide over the border area between North Korea and China in Yanggang Province on satellite images Thursday.

American and South Korean officials immediately played down the possibility the cloud was evidence of a nuclear weapons test, with one U.S. official telling CNN it was "no big deal" and could be from a forest fire.

But conspiracy theories were rife about what triggered the cloud on September 9, the anniversary of North Korea's founding.

Pyongyang traditionally uses the occasion to stage events to bolster national pride and show its superiority, and top Bush advisers concede there is intelligence the communist state may be preparing a nuclear test.

The U.S. periodically receives reports North Korea wants to test its nuclear capability, but senior officials say the reclusive regime's plans are hard to decipher.

Until Monday's statement, secretive North Korea had not officially responded to what may have triggered the cloud.

But the nation has come under the global spotlight for its covert nuclear program, revealed almost two years ago.

October surprises
America's national security adviser has suggested that North Korean leader Kim Jong Il's motive for any nuclear test could be to affect the U.S. election.

"The North Koreans would only succeed in isolating themselves further if they're somehow trying to gain negotiating leverage or their own October surprise," Condoleeza Rice said.

U.S. President George W. Bush is holding out for verifiable dismantlement, and North Korea may think his Democratic opponent, John Kerry, would have a different agenda.

"Their immediate goal is to hope Sen. Kerry prevails because they think he would be a more flexible negotiating partner," said Mike O'Hanlon from the Brookings Institution.

On Sunday, Kerry said "a potential route to a nuclear 9/11 is clearly visible" because of Bush's North Korea policy.

One Kerry adviser argued that by attacking Iraq, the U.S. has emboldened Pyongyang.

"They get the wrong message out of Iraq. You know, we invade countries that don't have nuclear weapons and we don't invade those that do," said former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright.

Kerry has accused Bush of taking his eye off the ball with North Korea, which the Central Intelligence Agency thinks already has a handful of nuclear weapons.

The White House insists diplomacy is still the best strategy, although officials say the president never takes military action off the table.

Yonhap reported the explosion happened near the site of the Yongjori missile base -- a large facility with an underground missile firing range.

According to data gathered by the Nuclear Threat Initiative (NTI), Yongjori is a suspected site for North Korea's uranium enrichment program.

NTI is a private charity, funded by CNN founder Ted Turner, dedicated to lessen the threat posed by weapons of mass destruction -- nuclear, chemical and biological -- around the globe, according to its Web site.

CNN Radio, CNN National Security Correspondent David Ensor and Correspondent Sohn Jie-Ae contributed to this report.

[BeTheReds]

Kerry's socialized medicine plans scare me as a future MD. (Think of a hospital turning into the DPS.)



More work for you!

[sageb1]

Speculation: Quite possibly, North Korea is building the hydro electric facility to continue its clandestine nuclear work in that area.

But if one can see a 2.4 mile crater from outer space, then the satellite recording the area has to be sensitive.

One source also claims that it's possible that they might be covering up a conventional explosion that destroyed a whole mountain.

Though the hyperbole in the Western news only reveals the gossip and rumors, and echoes the anti-NK sentiment of certain parties in Washington.

Conclusion: North Korea blew up a mountain used conventional explosions as part of the construction of a large hydro-electric facility.

[Beat180]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1530&e=17&u=/afp/us_nkorea_nuclear

This article was on the most viewed page on yahoo. 30 minutes later when I went back to find it to bookmark, it disappeared from the page. Only to have a statement by the gov't saying the blast is non-nuclear. My feeling is that the censors were hard at work shooting for damage control here.

I just don't know what to think. Everyone knows that North Korea's nuclear and that the top brass there uses pretty out there methods to get what they want. It's like the US gov't predicted the detonation of a nuclear weapon and then denies it when it actually happens. All I know is that on stuff like this, the government isn't really to be trusted especially when something like this is a foreign policy fuck-up in a big way and probably wouldn't sit too well with alot of voters in an election year.

[Martino]

This thread is wonderful reading. There's some classic 1950's Cold War paranoia floating around here! Powered not my intelligence, but lack of intelligence. Great stuff.

[deez nuts]

uncle kim's having himself a little party there.

[SunWuKong]

This thread is wonderful reading. There's some classic 1950's Cold War paranoia floating around here! Powered not my intelligence, but lack of intelligence. Great stuff.

well, i used to give Kim Jong Il the benefit of the doubt, but not anymore. we're talking about a very unpredictable man here, who rules a country that is one of the least integrated into the global community.

[SunWuKong]

N Korea blast: The only certainty is doubt
By David Scofield

Two massive explosions in five months, one at a train station and one in the mountains, have rocked North Korea and caused rampant speculation about what's really going on in the Hermit Kingdom. The details of this latest blast in the military region near the Chinese border are not known, but North Korean officials told a visiting British diplomat that it had to blow up a mountain in order to build a hydro-electric project. Hmm.

The explosion last Thursday occurred in a remote, closely guarded military zone, reputed to be the location of missiles, even illicit nuclear projects. It took place in the North Korean county of Kim Hyeong-jik, named after Korean leader Kim Jong-il's grandfather. It sent up a huge non-nuclear cloud at midnight on the anniversary of the founding of the North Korean state 56 years ago.

The extreme control North Korea's leaders have over information dissemination within and, by extension, beyond the country guarantees more questions than answers in the wake of such detonations. Details surrounding the rail explosion in Ryongchon mere hours after Kim Jong-il's train passed through on his return trip from China in April are still elusive. Official reports then, as now, seem implausible, but without further evidence, the world's attention moves on, the truth buried like the untold numbers of victims involved.


more... (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FI15Dg02.html)

[Martino]

we're talking about a very unpredictable man here, who rules a country that is one of the least integrated into the global community.

Too true, but the tone of the thread overall was (and still is) doom and gloom based on - what?

Albeit remotely, NK is under a lot of scrutiny, by China as well as the US. A cloud was observed, but there was no agreement on its size. No other tell-tale signs were detected of a supposedly surface detonation of a nuclear device. No flash, no seismic evidence, no radioactive particles. An awful lot of evidence was NOT found - and everyone still slipped into that old way of thinking.

It could be a masterpiece of manipulation, if (only if, mind, just my opinion) the current US administration deliberately downplayed the cloud's significance in the knowledge that it would still play on people's fears, and perhaps increase support for a hawk president.

Another bonus, of course, is that it distracted some attention away from the South suffering a sharp rebuke over it's own involved nuclear project, which it still denies was 'official'. Mmm, o-kayyyy ...

[Azn Retribution]

More work for you!

I believe quality patient care over quantity is the important thing.|
Hell even now with HMOs and whatever patients are treated like shit and get maybe 10 - 15 minutes average with an actual doctor.

His plan would make patient-doctor time even shorter. How can you give quality care if quantity is what is expected and demanded. Less time means more chance for screw-ups.
Also it'd be for emergency visits only. not well-visits, pre-natal care, preventative care. These things along with actually giving a damn for your health would help to lower healthcare costs in general. ie Preventing something is way easier and cheaper than treating it when hell breaks loose. Alot of hospitals are shutting down Emergency departments and just plain losing money not being able to collect on uninsured patients cuz of this.

Try shadowing doctors in a public hospital or any hospital for that matter for a day and pay close attention to how they treat patients.

We DO NOT want a DPS-like medical system.
More work for less money as well?

Our salaries are going down either way rather than up.
Our ridiculous malpractice insurance rates are getting higher.
and when we get out of medical school we are possibly 200 - 400,000 in debt at the minimum and those costs are just the education alone. He could have racked up more just living near the hospital and the school. Then we still have 2 - 8 years of residency/internship of getting paid 35,000 to 45,000 a year for 30 hour workshifts. While remaining deeply deeply in debt.

People who become doctors for money usually drop out by third year(clinical rotations)
Its way easier and less expensive to go business or any other field to make money than it is to become a full-fledged doctor(M.D. or D.O.). You become a doctor pretty much cuz you like to heal and be actively involved in the process of helping people as its rewarding. Much like teaching actually. You can bet your ass any doctor has hard-earned the money he gets.

The logical fallacy here is that the health insurance premiums can't just magically reduce themselves. Without a plan to change the amount that health care costs, people will have to pay exactly the same amount as before, the difference will be that they will pay it in taxes rather than directly to their health insurer. In fact, since more people will be covered by the government plan, you will end up paying more in total just to receive the same level of care. Not to mention the fact that this money is just going into the govt. pool of tax revenue, not specifically to health care. So when the baby boomers hit retirement age and we need to shovel money into Social Security and Medicare to shore up those programs, you can expect the money to start disappearing from health programs (or from SS, or from Medicare, or several other government programs that you don't want money disappearing from).

The problem with Kerry's and Bush's plans for fixing health care is that they both fall into the traditional liberal political trap that the best way to fix a problem is to just throw money at it. I'm more critical of Kerry in this matter, because Kerry is 1) throwing even more money into not fixing the problem and 2) making a bigger deal out of his plan, but Bush is certainly not innocent in this matter. Until somebody comes along and proposes an actual reform, I will not support their health care plan.

also as a future physician I would have trouble bringing myself to vote for edwards, an ex-ambulance chaser. I doubt the democratic nominees would show any empathy at all for physicians and see us as only as a petulant overpaid spoiled group.

Imma throw away my vote and vote independent.

//off-topic.

[SunWuKong]

Too true, but the tone of the thread overall was (and still is) doom and gloom based on - what?

Albeit remotely, NK is under a lot of scrutiny, by China as well as the US. A cloud was observed, but there was no agreement on its size. No other tell-tale signs were detected of a supposedly surface detonation of a nuclear device. No flash, no seismic evidence, no radioactive particles. An awful lot of evidence was NOT found - and everyone still slipped into that old way of thinking.

It could be a masterpiece of manipulation, if (only if, mind, just my opinion) the current US administration deliberately downplayed the cloud's significance in the knowledge that it would still play on people's fears, and perhaps increase support for a hawk president.

Another bonus, of course, is that it distracted some attention away from the South suffering a sharp rebuke over it's own involved nuclear project, which it still denies was 'official'. Mmm, o-kayyyy ...

check the article i linked (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FI15Dg02.html) above your post (i merged it in from another thread). it has some interesting information:

North Korean Foreign Minister Paek Nam-sun issued a statement indicating the explosion was part of the planned demolition of a mountain, destroyed, we are told, in preparation for a new hydro-electric project. In other words, the North Koreans decided to pack a mountain full of explosives (estimates put the explosive power at 1,000 tons) and waited until almost midnight on the eve of the country's foundation anniversary to level the mountain - yet none of this was broadcast, and so the domestic propaganda value of such an explosive display lost.

South Korean analysts indicate the explosion took place in an area unsuitable for water-powered electricity generation

It's also interesting that the mountain in question is set in the middle of one of North Korea's most heavily guarded and restricted counties. The whole area is a "military camp", Chinese observers have commented. In fact, according to the Nuclear Threat Initiative, the region is thought to house North Korea's medium-range missiles in a complex of tunnels deep underground. The county is also the location of sites suspected to house North Korea's highly enriched uranium (HEU) project, the catalyst behind the latest nuclear crisis.

but i think one thing that has been agreed is that the explosion was not nuclear. so it's anyone's guess what the hell is going on.

[Martino]

check the article i linked (http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Korea/FI15Dg02.html) above your post (i merged it in from another thread). it has some interesting information {SNIP} but i think one thing that has been agreed is that the explosion was not nuclear. so it's anyone's guess what the hell is going on.

Well, yes, good article and it succinctly summarises all the theories and worries ... but the last para is the most relevant:

In the end, this event, like the last, will likely be swept aside in days and weeks to come as a lack of new evidence relegates the story to the wayside. We may never know the what, why, how or even who behind the blast.

The simplest answer probably is that they were taking a big loud short cut to bring down a mountain ...