Russia's Hostage Standoff

[truMp]

By this time, most of you probably know much about this:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/02/russia.school/index.html

So what are your thoughts on this situation? I really hope that the Russian government doesn't screw up like they did last time with the Moscow Theather Crisis where they killed countless innocent lives. In fact, if they were to fail in saving the hostages this time, there could be extreme consequences for Putin since most of those in jeopardy are just school children. I've been wondering about what type of strategy they'll use and I'm going to say that they will succumb to the terrorist's demands.

Pray for them.

[moser]

Russians Storm School; 100 Bodies Found

By MIKE ECKEL, Associated Press Writer

BESLAN, Russia - Commandos stormed a school Friday in southern Russia and battled separatist rebels holding hundreds of hostages, as crying children, some naked and covered in blood, fled through explosions and gunfire. More than 100 bodies were reportedly found in the gymnasium where hostages had been held.

The extent of the casualties was not immediately known. The militants, who had been demanding independence for nearby Chechnya (news - web sites), had been keeping up to 1,500 hostages — mostly women and children — in the sweltering gymnasium for more than two days.

Regional emergency officials said at least 100 people were killed. A cameraman for the British network ITN reported seeing around 100 bodies in the gym. The correspondent for Russia's Interfax news agency reported that there were dozens of bodies in the school, including about 100 in the gym, and that some were killed when the building's roof collapsed from an explosion before the main assault began.

Other casualties were reported when militants opened fire on hostages as they fled the building and in fighting that went on for several hours afterward. Russian forces killed 10 of the hostage-takers, Interfax reported. The regional health minister reported that 409 people were wounded, including at least 218 children.

rest of article (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=1&u=/ap/20040903/ap_on_re_eu/russia_school_seizure_8)

[Banana]

Looks like the Russians stormed the building and only most of them were just injured. Russians were never a stranger to using a "shotgun to kill a fly" strategy.

[bluemonq]

though, really, what could they have done? they had only one demand: independence for chechnya. and putin would probably welcome back gorbachev before letting chechnya go...

[Martino]

Between 150 to 300 hostages dead, depending on which source you listen to. What a terrible tragedy for everyone involved.

though, really, what could they have done? they had only one demand: independence for chechnya. and putin would probably welcome back gorbachev before letting chechnya go...

It is a no win scenario. That thug Putin can't afford to let the Russian Federation diminish even furher. Even if he wanted to, he wouldn't be allowed to let Chechnya go.

Nor can the Chechen's can't get true independence through any political process - Russia's fake democracy will not let any more states cede away from the Federation, and there are no political tools to even begin such a process. Chechnya declared itself independent from Russia in 1991. Russia re-invaded in 1994.

The Chechens are blamed for most of Russia's terrorist acts, but I think other more traditional enemies like the Tatars have their hand in it too.

[truMp]

Such a messy scenario; when they said that attacks were "unplanned", BS popped right in my head.

[Faithless]

On that day, I understand there there could have been as many as 1000 kids and hundreds of parents.

That's the traditional start of school, where both, early starting and late starting, kids and their parents go to school.

Now, the government says that they had to do something because the terrorists had designs on blowing up the school.

Will have to see how true that really was.

[Martino]

The BBC says the death toll stands at 320 ...

[experiment888]

i think the russians were genuinely planning to talk it through...but events took a turn for the worst and the rush just happened; i don't think it was planned.

if it was, don't you think they would have organised it better ie) ambulances on stand-by.


http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040904/325/f1x2m.html

Freed hostages described Friday's mayhem. "Bombs were strung all over the gym," one teenage girl told state television. "Tape came unstuck on one and it blew up."

but i'm sure they would've rushed sooner or later anyway. the human body can survive for about 3 days without any water...better risk some than let all hostages die.......right?

[hooligan]

armed revolution is the last step of a movement that's not going anywhere. : ( i'm sorry to hear about the hostages.

[Mr.Lum]

armed revolution is the last step of a movement that's not going anywhere. : ( i'm sorry to hear about the hostages.


The Chechans were going nowhere from the start. Russia is unreasonable and it is impossible to get justice for a minority like them in that nation. It's basically hopless.


Currently reading: Pedagogy of the Oppressed by Paulo Friere

Excellent, how far through are you?

[hooligan]

fight, fight, fight.

Excellent, how far through are you?
page 138, i'll admit, a lot of it is going over my head, but it's a great read.

[Martino]

i think the russians were genuinely planning to talk it through...

Negotiation and compromise were never on the cards. I can't imagine what those people hoped to achieve by taking hostages, even on such a scale.

The simple fact is that the Russians insist the conflict is an internal one and will not allow outside mediation. Since Russia has consistently responded to the Chechens desire for seperatism in purely militart terms, the end result of this seige came as no surprise at all.

Unplanned? I don't think so. The bloodshed was a deliberate message to the Chechens.

armed revolution is the last step of a movement that's not going anywhere. : ( i'm sorry to hear about the hostages.

Erm ... the United States of America was born from a revolutionary war.

[Cipherous]

Damn,

I have a feeling that WW III is brewing in the middle east.

[truMp]

Damn,

I have a feeling that WW III is brewing in the middle east.

My prediction is that it'll soon spread to Asia unless the talks succeed.

[Mr.Lum]

Damn,

I have a feeling that WW III is brewing in the middle east.

At the rate the US is going, we will call it the "Battle of Armagedon"...

[hooligan]

Erm ... the United States of America was born from a revolutionary war.
i don't think we would have won without the french. the chechens don't got anyone, expect islamic fundamentalists.

[Martino]

Forgive me for quoting myself here:

The Chechens are blamed for most of Russia's terrorist acts, but I think other more traditional enemies like the Tatars have their hand in it too.

Analysis: The hostage-takers

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3627586.stm

Confusion reigns over the identity of the group who seized the school in North Ossetia taking hostage more than 1,000 children and their parents and teachers.

The Russian authorities are telling one story, and Chechen sources are telling another. It may take time for the truth to emerge.

The Russian version says the hostage-takers were a multi-national group linked to the radical Chechen rebel commanders Shamil Basayev and Doku Umarov, funded by al-Qaeda.

The Chechen version, as put forward by the Chechen rebel envoy in Europe, Ahmed Zakayev, is that the attackers may have been Ossetians, Russians or Ingush - but not Chechens.

The pro-rebel Kavkaz Center website suggests the leaders may have been Ossetian Islamists - from a home-grown militant group or Jama'at. Most Ossetians are Christian or pagan, but a minority are Muslim.

The two accounts are not in fact mutually exclusive.

Either would explain the reported presence of Arabs among the attackers.

Also two men Russian forces believe may have been among the ringleaders are Magomet Yevloyev, said by some sources to be an Ingush, and Vladimir Khodov, a resident of North Ossetia (they are thought to have used the codenames Magas and Abdulla).

Both reportedly took part in the attacks on the Ingush interior ministry in June, under the leadership of Basayev and Umarov.

It is not just the identity of the attackers that is unclear. Neither were their demands, which were never clearly articulated to the media.

Initially, they were reported to have called for the release of fighters arrested in Ingushetia in connection with the June raid. Then they were said to have called for the withdrawal of troops from Chechnya.

On the second day of the siege, Russian sources said the attackers did not appear to be making any clear demands. Then - on the third day - the North Ossetian leader said they were demanding independence for Chechnya.

There seems to be no doubt that some of them regarded the attack on the school as a suicide mission.

For the women reported to have been wearing belts of explosives - probably widows or relatives of men killed by Russian forces in the Caucasus - revenge and martyrdom may have been more important than political goals.

But despite all the confusion surrounding the Beslan outrage, the incident would appear to underline some trends.

One is that instability appears to be spreading out from Chechnya again - whether or not Chechens have been directly involved in all cases.

There were the attacks in Ingushetia in June - carried out by Chechens and Ingush. In the last two weeks, there has been a wave of deadly attacks in Moscow. This time the target was North Ossetia, one of the most loyal of Russia's North Caucasian republics.

Earlier, there was a series of attacks on trains in southern Russia. This all lends grim credibility to Chechen warnings that they have the power to step up guerrilla attacks in Russia.

Secondly, the horror of the Beslan attack - in which the primary victims were innocent children - indicates that Russia's enemies in the North Caucasus are becoming increasingly radical.

Reliable reports from Chechnya suggest that Mr Maskhadov, though he remains the titular chief of the rebels, has been sidelined by radicals such as Basayev and Umarov and Saudi-born Abu Al-Walid - the leader of the Chechen Islamists, and reportedly the distributor of funding from the Muslim world.

It will be no consolation to the Russian authorities if Basayev - who made his name seizing a maternity hospital in southern Russia in 1995 and orchestrated the seizure of hostages at a Moscow theatre two years ago - turns out not to have been involved in the Beslan attack.

That will just show that there are more wild and dangerous warlords out there than previously thought.

[Martino]

i don't think we would have won without the french. the chechens don't got anyone, expect islamic fundamentalists.

Well, a lot of clear underdogs have won through against militarily mightier oppressors: look at the Afghans repelling the Soviet Union!

Poor, forever overlooked East Timor fought a protracted guerilla war before forcing out a politically demoralised Indonesia. Other wars are still going on (Tamil Tigers) after decades or have bloodily forced the occupiers to the negotiation table (the IRA).

Armed revolution isn't then the last step of a movement that's not going anywhere, it's the first step in what the protagonists know will be a very long battle. Heavy losses will be expected.

Hey, East Timor has been free for 5 years!

http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=18557

[yoMAMA]

pretty good analysis of the sad situation in chechnya



http://economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3168912

[younggiftedandblack]

pretty good analysis of the sad situation in chechnya



http://economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3168912

Thanks for that link. I understand the story behind it all better now. I still disagree with the Chechenians tactics of involving innocents.

[experiment888]

Unplanned? I don't think so. The bloodshed was a deliberate message to the Chechens.I think it was definitely unplanned.

"I don't give two sh!ts about our people, don't mess with us"
Would Russia send that kind of message to Chenchen rebels? I highly doubt it. That kind of message would cause outrage among the nation and provoke further attacks.

Furhter evidence of no plan action:
1) no ambulances (few) on stand-by.

2) unorganised troop action. Would Russia show the world how unorganised and divvy their army is
(even though it maybe true)?

[kuilong]

Erm ... the United States of America was born from a revolutionary war.

Do you mean to suggest that we're going somewhere?

[Martino]

Would Russia send that kind of message to Chenchen rebels?

Yes. Russia likes to be seen as implaccable.

I highly doubt it. That kind of message would cause outrage among the nation and provoke further attacks.

The attacks will continue anyway, and the only outrage comes from Putin not stopping those attacks. Violence is the only tool he knows how to use.

Furhter evidence of no plan action:
1) no ambulances (few) on stand-by.

2) unorganised troop action. Would Russia show the world how unorganised and divvy their army is
(even though it maybe true)?

That doesn't seem to be very compelling evidence of anything. No ambulances? Disorganised army? The Russian state is like that all over. Shortages, poverty, poor communication. That's the state of the whole country.

[DragonKnight]

Erm ... the United States of America was born from a revolutionary war. The United States side of the Revolutionary War never used hostages or perpetrated acts of terrorism on the innocent population. At least that's what history says. :wink:

I'm personally sick and tired of people calling terrorists 'freedom fighters'. There's a big difference. My grandfather and great-grandfathers on my dad's side were 'freedom fighters' in the Philippines against the occupying Japanese Imperial forces there. They used hit and run tactics against the military. But NEVER did they attack civilians or held children hostage. There's a big fucking difference when you run towards a tank strapped with explosives versus blowing yourself up in a cafe in Jerusalem killing dozen of innocent civilians or holding thousands of parents and children hostage in a school. A BIG fucking difference.

[Mr.Lum]

I'm personally sick and tired of people calling terrorists 'freedom fighters'. There's a big difference. My grandfather and great-grandfathers on my dad's side were 'freedom fighters' in the Philippines against the occupying Japanese Imperial forces there. They used hit and run tactics against the military. But NEVER did they attack civilians or held children hostage. There's a big fucking difference when you run towards a tank strapped with explosives versus blowing yourself up in a cafe in Jerusalem killing dozen of innocent civilians or holding thousands of parents and children hostage in a school. A BIG fucking difference.


The Irgun are called "freedom fighters" by Americans and they massacred innocent Arabs and embassy workers. There is no difference between the Israeli "freedom fighters" and the Palestinian 'terrorists". Who would the Philippine freedom fighters attack, civilian wise? Other Filipinos? As far as I know there were not many Japanese civilians to attack at that point. I am sick of people calling one group of murderers 'freedom fighters" and another 'terrorists". They are both killers. Both sides, always. They are both muderers. The Japanese, the Filipinos. The Palestinians, the Israelis, the Russians and the Chechans. There is no difference.

[Martino]

The United States side of the Revolutionary War never used hostages or perpetrated acts of terrorism on the innocent population.

The Americans rose up in rebellion over unfair British taxation. The Chechens are fighting because Russian forces are pertetuating unlawful executions, "disappearances", torture and rape against the whole country. The city of Grozny was virtually levelled by intensive bombing with no regard to its population. Estimates are that one fifth of Chechnya's population has been killed in the last ten years. That's men, women and children.

Whilst we can't possibly agree with the use of violent tactics against children, that is the context of the outrage.

http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGEUR460322004

[DragonKnight]

The Irgun are called "freedom fighters" by Americans and they massacred innocent Arabs and embassy workers. There is no difference between the Israeli "freedom fighters" and the Palestinian 'terrorists". Who would the Philippine freedom fighters attack, civilian wise? Other Filipinos? As far as I know there were not many Japanese civilians to attack at that point. I am sick of people calling one group of murderers 'freedom fighters" and another 'terrorists". They are both killers. Both sides, always. They are both muderers. The Japanese, the Filipinos. The Palestinians, the Israelis, the Russians and the Chechans. There is no difference. There is. Filipino fighters were carrying out military action against military positions. Different situations but still different actions. Terrorists would soon as walk into your family restaurant and blow themselves up targeting civilians. If you want to blur the lines between military and civilian, go for it. It's your ass.

[Martino]

There is. Filipino fighters were carrying out military action against military positions. Different situations but still different actions. Terrorists would soon as walk into your family restaurant and blow themselves up targeting civilians. If you want to blur the lines between military and civilian, go for it. It's your ass.

Then again, you could consider why anyone would want to blow themselves up. Think about it. Deliberatly getting yourself killed ... if you're lucky ... or else survive and get captured, tortured (perhaps for months, years), executed. What drives them to do it? What would you kill your self for?

We recognise these people as being inhuman monsters, but if we had lived their lives, would we then make the same choices?

[DragonKnight]

Then again, you could consider why anyone would want to blow themselves up. Think about it. Deliberatly getting yourself killed ... if you're lucky ... or else survive and get captured, tortured (perhaps for months, years), executed. What drives them to do it? What would you kill your self for?

We recognise these people as being inhuman monsters, but if we had lived their lives, would we then make the same choices? So the ends justify the means? Cause this heat wave I'm living through right now makes me wanna pop a few caps in some of these idiots walking the streets right outside my apartment. My reasoning...its too fucking hot and I'm bored. :rolleyes:

Terrorists are using this to get attention. It's working. Now the whole beauty of this is that there will be even more of this shit going on. Why? Cause its more efficient and has faster results. People have a choice. I don't care what you wanna use as their excuse but I personally think people have the ability to make moral decisions. Cause to say that the situation makes the person makes it all that much easier to go and kill anyone in general.

It's getting hotter now.

[Mr.Lum]

There is. Filipino fighters were carrying out military action against military positions. Different situations but still different actions. Terrorists would soon as walk into your family restaurant and blow themselves up targeting civilians. If you want to blur the lines between military and civilian, go for it. It's your ass.

The Filipinos had no civilians to attack. There is no difference between a military that attacks civilians and paramilitary who attacks civilians who are tools of a foreign military. Soldiers are terrorists. They kill civilians. On purpose. A "terrorist" is no different. The Indonesian soldiers are terrorists. The American soldiers are terrorists. The Israeli soldiers are terrorists. Every soldier in combat is a terrorist. The "they attack civilians" line is bullshit. So do the soldiers. If your going to be at war, be at war. Soldiers kill civilians in war. The Filipinos were in a different situation than the Chechans or Palestinians. Why would they attack other Filipinos? It makes no sense at all. I do not doubt that if there were large numbers of Japanese civilians, they would be attacked. The difference is motivation. It makes no difference who you're killing. It's why you're killing them.

[DragonKnight]

The Filipinos had no civilians to attack. There is no difference between a military that attacks civilians and paramilitary who attacks civilians who are tools of a foreign military. Soldiers are terrorists. They kill civilians. On purpose. A "terrorist" is no different. The Indonesian soldiers are terrorists. The American soldiers are terrorists. The Israeli soldiers are terrorists. Every soldier in combat is a terrorist. The "they attack civilians" line is bullshit. So do the soldiers. If your going to be at war, be at war. Soldiers kill civilians in war. The Filipinos were in a different situation than the Chechans or Palestinians. Why would they attack other Filipinos? It makes no sense at all. I do not doubt that if there were large numbers of Japanese civilians, they would be attacked. The difference is motivation. It makes no difference who you're killing. It's why you're killing them. So if a whole bunch of Japanese school children decided to come to the Philippines it would be justified for my grandfather to go and shoot them all up? Cause if it boils down to a choice between the armed Japanese soldier versus an innocent child, he'll fuck up the soldier any day.

And don't tell me Filipinos at the time weren't desperate. Japanese soldiers were tossing Filipino babies in the air and catching them with swords and bayonets. You know...to pass the fucking time cause they got tired raping women and then gutting them out afterwards.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not ignoring the situation. But I personally think these particular rebels/terrorists/freedom fighters/ice cream truck drivers are fucking monsters. They could've went ahead and tried kidnapping Putin himself, stick a dynamite up his ass, and then have that shit broadcasted on live television with their demands. Now there's some attention for you. Hell, it'd be entertainment for a Chechnens who are lucky to have television.

Instead, they decided to shoot and blow up a school full of children.

Sorry, I'm not 'getting it' either.

[Mr.Lum]

So if a whole bunch of Japanese school children decided to come to the Philippines it would be justified for my grandfather to go and shoot them all up? Cause if it boils down to a choice between the armed Japanese soldier versus an innocent child, he'll fuck up the soldier any day.



Just as justified as he would be to kill the Japanese soldier. They are both invaders there for the same reason.

And don't tell me Filipinos at the time weren't desperate. Japanese soldiers were tossing Filipino babies in the air and catching them with swords and bayonets. You know...to pass the fucking time cause they got tired raping women and then gutting them out afterwards

I know all about that. The Filipinos didn't have children to take hostage or kill however.

Now don't get me wrong. I'm not ignoring the situation. But I personally think these particular rebels/terrorists/freedom fighters/ice cream truck drivers are fucking monsters. They could've went ahead and tried kidnapping Putin himself, stick a dynamite up his ass, and then have that shit broadcasted on live television with their demands. Now there's some attention for you. Hell, it'd be entertainment for a Chechnens who are lucky to have television.

Instead, they decided to shoot and blow up a school full of children.


They took the easy target. Putin is an unrealistic target. In their mind, those kids would have likely grown up to kill Chechans anyway. I don't argee with their methods either. But I'm not going to call them "monsters" for fighting their war. The fact is, that the Chechans are going nowhere fast. They've been going nowehre for most of their history with Russia. If they do nothing or attack Russians, they are going to get nothing or nothing and less. That's the free Russia. When the Russians are not acting in the same fashion as the "terrorists", then I will be calling them monsters. Until then, there is no use in saying these people are monsters. They are no more monsterous than Putin and his band of thugs.

[nola]

The theater hostage event and this school event got my attention as Chechens planned. Chechens may have killed innocent theater-goers and 155 children but think of the causes such as Putin's policies against Chechna of vigilante activism. Think of the 70,000 children killed in the 1991 American war in Iraq vs. 58,000 soldiers killed (155,000 total Iraqis killed in that war) or the children among the 10,000-55,000 innocent Iraqi civilians killed in the current Iraqi war. What mother or relative wouldn't want to be vigilante murderers?

[yoMAMA]

Putin needs to respect the wills of the Chechen people, not installing another puppet loyal to Moscow, or else crack down with this pseduo KGB/hit/torture squad.

[Leviticus]

Putin needs to respect the wills of the Chechen people, not installing another puppet loyal to Moscow, or else crack down with this pseduo KGB/hit/torture squad.

yes, only russia does this. no one but russia and that damn putin. damn him! damn him to hell!

[yoMAMA]

yes, only russia does this. no one but russia and that damn putin. damn him! damn him to hell!

Well, they are certainly not the only ones that grossly violates human rights.

But hey, why not scrutinize them?

Afterall, they are a "democracy", right?

[btw, i don't think a Chechen person wakes up one moring and decides to blow him/herself up and take 400 kids along with them].

Something happened along the way.

[Leviticus]

Well, they are certainly not the only ones that grossly violates human rights.

But hey, why not scrutinize them?

Afterall, they are a "democracy", right?

[btw, i don't think a Chechen person wakes up one moring and decides to blow him/herself up and take 400 kids along with them].

Something happened along the way.

I do agree with you on Russia but I don’t think you should justify that. it kind of justifies 911.. :)

btw rip russians

[yoMAMA]

I do agree with you on Russia but I don’t think you should justify that. it kind of justifies 911.. :)

btw rip russians

Definitely agree with you.

What the terrorist did to those kids at the school was indefensible....there can be no justification for that stuff.

However, I just think sometimes you gotta look at the source of a comflict......

The Chechens are the underdos here, they are fighting the world's largest nation for their freedom [after 200 years of forced Russian rule].

[truMp]

Did you guys see the photos immediately after the conflict, it was pretty graphic. What's worse were the burial procession photos; they attacks killed off about 1/10 of the town of Beslan which is pretty astounding. Rest In Peace.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/06/russia.school/index.html

An update on the situation.

[experiment888]

here are some more photos:
http://public.fotki.com/yartsev/school_seige_traged/
http://public.fotki.com/yartsev/aftermath_of_beslan/

Yes. Russia likes to be seen as implaccable.

The attacks will continue anyway, and the only outrage comes from Putin not stopping those attacks. Violence is the only tool he knows how to use.

That doesn't seem to be very compelling evidence of anything. No ambulances? Disorganised army? The Russian state is like that all over. Shortages, poverty, poor communication. That's the state of the whole country.you seem to be very "anti-russian." is this what you found when you went to russia?

[Martino]

here are some more photos:
http://public.fotki.com/yartsev/school_seige_traged/
http://public.fotki.com/yartsev/aftermath_of_beslan/

you seem to be very "anti-russian." is this what you found when you went to russia?


Stating facts makes me anti-something, does it?

Wow, that means I'm anti-American and anti-Russian? And anti-British, anti-Hollywood, anti-Rosie O'Donnell ... please don't be juvenile. This is an adult discussion.

Um ... and yes, I've been to Russia. Moscow is a very nice city, if you are rich or a tourist. Lot's of flashy cars, lots of people wearing designer gear. But it still has food queues, the hospitals are under-funded, the national airline is a disgrace ...

[experiment888]

Mods may want to delete this as it maybe off-topic. But this is a reply to an offence so if you delete this, delete Martino's response as well.

Oh the irony. You're starting to become "juvenille" by calling me "juvenille" and then using patronising statements like "this is an adult discussion." Don't start throwing around insults because this is a discussion...not an argument.

So where do you get these facts from then? What you heard in the 70s? From the BBC (consider the source)?
The point I'm trying to make is that you should see for yourself before you criticise and obviously some towns are better than others.

It's like saying all hospitals in the UK have MRSA because of poor hygeine standards.

[rasheedgonzales]

They could've went ahead and tried kidnapping Putin himself, stick a dynamite up his @**, and then have that s**t broadcasted on live television with their demands. Now there's some attention for you. Hell, it'd be entertainment for a Chechnens who are lucky to have television.not that i condone any of these actions and methods of getting messages across... but if history is any type of indication, i don’t think kidnapping putin would have much of an effect. if you take out a tyranical, oppressive leader, there’s always someone worse who’s going to come along and take his place. as wrong as they are, the methods they're currently using are more effective in sending out whatever twisted message they want to deliver to the masses.

if you look at what happened in egypt, the ikhwaan al-muslimoon (the muslim brotherhood) helped oust one tyranical and oppressive ruler, and then the guy they helped gain power, jamaal abdun-naasir, turned out to be worse than the ousted king.

this whole situation blows. and it really sucks that innocent women and children were the victims in this tragedy...

[Martino]

Mods may want to delete this as it maybe off-topic. But this is a reply to an offence so if you delete this, delete Martino's response as well.

Oh the irony. You're starting to become "juvenille" by calling me "juvenille" and then using patronising statements like "this is an adult discussion." Don't start throwing around insults because this is a discussion...not an argument.

Well, if I reread your post, you are clearly saying oo-ooh and have you been there then? - which is neither discussing nor arguing a point.

So where do you get these facts from then? What you heard in the 70s? From the BBC (consider the source)? The point I'm trying to make is that you should see for yourself before you criticise and obviously some towns are better than others.

Yes I've seen for myself. And yes, I can trot out that old line 'I know Russian people.' The Russian health service is an absolute mess. Russian airlines regularly breach international air safety rules and are banned from many airports. Much of the Russian navy is rusting in port. Russia looks set to accept payment of arms for chickens - chickens! - from Thailand. The country - the state - is poor, services are poorer.

It's like saying all hospitals in the UK have MRSA because of poor hygeine standards.

How?