Is Christianity a White Man's religion

[kimpossible]

Religion is not a topic that ever came up before or during my marriage... until now. I've noticed that my husband kind of disapproves if I mention that I might attend mass with my sister.

Now, I'm no Bible thumper by any means. In fact I'm kind of shocked I wasn't zapped by lightning in the entryway of the Catholic church I went to a couple months ago in New York (I was in Valhalla). I'm Catholic, technically speaking, because I was baptised as an infant and that's what my parents told me I am. I hated Sunday school and with the molestation epidemic in the Catholic church - I'm not sure I even would want to go to mass again.

However, due to either culture or some last shred of desire to keep my family's religion, I *might* want to have my kids baptised as infants. That's it, no Sunday school or Bible study. I won't force them into that.

When I told my husband that he immediately shot back that 'his Chinese children will not be worshipping a white man's god'. I was kinda miffed and said half smartassedly back "So, I should keep my backwards little religion to myself?" He said a little ashamedly, "Yes. I'm sorry I feel that way but yes."

We talked it out and I explained what baptism is and that it was the only thing I wanted. Just that once. So, he said we can talk about it again when we actually have children but he disapproves of it overall.

Was I wrong to even suggest it? They will be my children too... Irish are pretty Catholic.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Sep 20 2002, 08:25 PM
Religion is not a topic that ever came up before or during my marriage... until now. I've noticed that my husband kind of disapproves if I mention that I might attend mass with my sister.

Now, I'm no Bible thumper by any means. In fact I'm kind of shocked I wasn't zapped by lightning in the entryway of the Catholic church I went to a couple months ago in New York (I was in Valhalla). I'm Catholic, technically speaking, because I was baptised as an infant and that's what my parents told me I am. I hated Sunday school and with the molestation epidemic in the Catholic church - I'm not sure I even would want to go to mass again.

However, due to either culture or some last shred of desire to keep my family's religion, I *might* want to have my kids baptised as infants. That's it, no Sunday school or Bible study. I won't force them into that.

When I told my husband that he immediately shot back that 'his Chinese children will not be worshipping a white man's god'. I was kinda miffed and said half smartassedly back "So, I should keep my backwards little religion to myself?" He said a little ashamedly, "Yes. I'm sorry I feel that way but yes."

We talked it out and I explained what baptism is and that it was the only thing I wanted. Just that once. So, he said we can talk about it again when we actually have children but he disapproves of it overall.

Was I wrong to even suggest it? They will be my children too... Irish are pretty Catholic.
well no offense to mr. HH but i think you can tell him that Jesus was not white and that his children will be in fact part white.

[kimpossible]

It's okay guys, I'm playing up the Rant part. B)

Get crazy if you want.

[mrazntre]

it's like anything else, the white man has made christianity his own. The source may not be white, but the denominations were created by the white guys (just a few, not all). I don't really care.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

I'm generally very suspicious of evangelistic missionaries because of their relentless attacks on cultural habits such as showing respect (http://www.hakkaministries.org/hakkas/filialpiety.htm) to your ancestors (http://www.hakkaministries.org/hakkas/ancestorworship.htm), Confucianism (http://www.hakkaministries.org/hakkas/confucianism.htm), etc. But looking back historically, we see this is largely an evangelical Protestant problem. Catholicism has had much more respect for local traditions. E.g. Many factions within the Catholic church pressed the pope to recognize that "ancestor worship" rites are more of a civil than religious ceremony.

What's really ironic is that the other major world religion - Islam -which I see many people turn to over Christianity because Christianity is "the white man's religion" "The religion of oppression" etc., is even worse. Arab Muslims have spent the whole history of their religion imposing Arabic cultural practices such as female circumcision, cousin marriage, the burqa, and most notably, the Arabic language, on converts to Islam. Even today, an Arab imam invited to speak to non-Arab Muslims will harangue them for being unable to speak his language but only their "heathen" local languages.

[Chris]

Aye. As a former Christian who went back to being buddhist. I felt this religion was very prejudice to any other religion and baiscally shoved thier idea down your throat. In other words accept it or you go to hell. Hence me being very disallusion with it. But that my stance on it. :(

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Sep 21 2002, 03:01 AM
I'm generally very suspicious of evangelistic missionaries because of their relentless attacks on cultural habits such as showing respect (http://www.hakkaministries.org/hakkas/filialpiety.htm) to your ancestors (http://www.hakkaministries.org/hakkas/ancestorworship.htm), Confucianism (http://www.hakkaministries.org/hakkas/confucianism.htm), etc. But looking back historically, we see this is largely an evangelical Protestant problem. Catholicism has had much more respect for local traditions. E.g. Many factions within the Catholic church pressed the pope to recognize that "ancestor worship" rites are more of a civil than religious ceremony.
aiya! one quick look at those links and i can tell that the site is not done by chinese people! i know chinese christians who actually do ancestral worship - they think it's a secular cultural tradition instead of idol worshipping. and no chinese ever actually think of confucianism as a seperate entity because it's been so secularized into chinese life and culture that it seems ridiculous to bring up the idea all on its own. besides, it was never a religion! what a ridiculous site!!!

by the way, AliBaba, do you have hakka roots?



<!--EDIT|SunWuKung|Sep 21 2002, 03:27 AM-->

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 21 2002, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Sep 21 2002, 03:01 AM
I'm generally very suspicious of evangelistic missionaries because of their relentless attacks on cultural habits such as showing respect (http://www.hakkaministries.org/hakkas/filialpiety.htm) to your ancestors (http://www.hakkaministries.org/hakkas/ancestorworship.htm), Confucianism (http://www.hakkaministries.org/hakkas/confucianism.htm), etc. But looking back historically, we see this is largely an evangelical Protestant problem. Catholicism has had much more respect for local traditions. E.g. Many factions within the Catholic church pressed the pope to recognize that "ancestor worship" rites are more of a civil than religious ceremony.
aiya! one quick look at those links and i can tell that the site is not done by chinese people! i know chinese christians who actually do ancestral worship - they think it's a secular cultural tradition instead of idol worshipping. and no chinese ever actually think of confucianism as a seperate entity because it's been so secularized into chinese life and culture that it seems ridiculous to bring up the idea all on its own. besides, it was never a religion! what a ridiculous site!!!

by the way, AliBaba, do you have hakka roots?
yeah, I speak Hakka with my uncle. But my abilities are losing ground to Cantonese cuz it's all around me now.

What really pisses me off about those evangelists I linked to above is that, they don't even use Hakka language to evangelize, they use Mandarin instead and are unwilling to even try learning local dialects, but then portray themselves as such know-it-alls about Hakka culture ...

[Chris]

I'm hakka as well and reading the info to that site. I am pissed off. How can they generalize a whole culture and protraying it off as the Hakka way. How dare they?!?! please.

Ps I understand Hakka but can't speak it. My parents can though.



<!--EDIT|Chris|Sep 21 2002, 01:00 AM-->

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by Chris@Sep 21 2002, 09:00 AM
I'm hakka as well and reading the info to that site. I am pissed off. How can they generalize a whole culture and protraying it off as the Hakka way. How dare they?!?! please.

Ps I understand Hakka but can't speak it. My parents can though.
hmm, I'm not so much offended by their generalizations (after all, you gotta admit, we really are basically a bunch of stubborn-ass hicks with a tight family structure) as their implication that these traits are antithetical to Christianity. When the only thing they're really antithetical to is modern Western individualism and loss of social capital.

[wylin]

as a person who believe in god and wasnt raised in it (i was taken by a neighbor) i dont honestly think its a white mans religion first off, most of the growing ministries i see are Asian American majority membership churchs, like korean churchs, multiethnic asian churchs like newsong in irvine, taiwanese/ cantonese/ chinese churchs. These churchs put their own twist on things and have integreted christianity into their asian/ asian american way of thinking so i think its arrogant to say only white people can believe in christ and as morientes said jesus was a jew and if u actually read the scripture u'll see why christians move around evangelizing to people sharing the love christ has is their main ideal.

Many people do horrible things in the name of their god, u shouldnt judge christianity any more harshly then u judge muslims or buddahists who commit attrocities in the name of religion.

no religion is based on race its a dogma u believe in is the arguement i'd give hapa johny and that religion is your choice as a mother and his too and if he wants to stop u from taking ur kids there he can take a hike. because their ur young also.

[mrazntre]

what area is Hakka spoken ?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by mrazntre@Sep 21 2002, 12:52 PM
what area is Hakka spoken ?
ah. :)

i know where it is spoken. of course it's tied inexplicably to where Hakka people live. perhaps the Hakka representatives on this site would like to answer. :)

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 21 2002, 06:13 PM
Originally posted by mrazntre@Sep 21 2002, 12:52 PM
what area is Hakka spoken ?
ah. :)

i know where it is spoken. of course it's tied inexplicably to where Hakka people live. perhaps the Hakka representatives on this site would like to answer. :)
Within China, the biggest concentrations are in coastal regions of Guangdong (especially Jialing County) and Fujian provinces. There are also many right across the strait in southwestern Taiwan. There are also some Hakka in Hong Kong, but only members of older generations can still actually speak. Overseas, the biggest concentrations are in Malaysia, Netherlands, and Jamaica. The restaurant closest to the North Pole is also owned by a Hakka.

[Chris]

Also a largest concertration is in Singapore as well.

[SunWuKong]

nobody wants to explain the historically migratory habits of Hakka people or even what "Hakka" means?

[angel nympho]

Why can't people just believe what they want to believe? I was raised Catholic, but I'm not anymore. And this isn't because I was suddenly hit by the idea that Catholicism is a white man's religion. I mean, sure white people were the ones who tried to spread the love of Christ, but these days, people choose to believe whatever the fuck they want.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 21 2002, 02:45 PM
Why can't people just believe what they want to believe? I was raised Catholic, but I'm not anymore. And this isn't because I was suddenly hit by the idea that Catholicism is a white man's religion. I mean, sure white people were the ones who tried to spread the love of Christ, but these days, people choose to believe whatever the fuck they want.
well, we're talking about convincing other people what to believe, or raising your kids to believe in a certain religion. we're not really talking about pointing a gun at someone and then telling him to recite hail marys. :)

[achtungbaby]

Is Christianity a white man's religion?

Is democracy a white man's politic?

Is capitalism a white man's economic?

Is driving a car a white man's mode of transportation?

Is television a white man's form of entertainment?

Is the internet a white man's form of communication?

[achtungbaby]

To add: there are plenty of reasons why one wouldn't want their children or loved ones to subscribe to Christianity, but using the rationale of "because it's a white man's religion" shouldn't be one of them. If you're going to hate on Christianity, just hate on it, but don't concoct excuses under some thin veil of "racism," otherwise a whole lot of other crap is precluded.

Missionaries get a bad rap, and for some good reasons, portraying white men as these annoying penetrators of culture, wanting to brainwash everyone to become like them; or, you could take the perspective that many of these people believed they were doing the right thing, so much so, that missionaries to Africa in the early 1920s often left the U.S. with their Bible and their pre-made coffin, because many never expected to come back alive.

Purveyors of white culture, or believers (fantatics?) willing to die for their God? And if we're to take the New Testament, for example, by its word, then the Great Commission was something that every one of Christ's disciples was martyred for.

The issue of cultural hegemony is in fact taken up in the NT. Prior to Jesus' teachings, one was thought to be closer to God by being more like a Jew -- a practice disputed again and again.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 21 2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 21 2002, 02:45 PM
Why can't people just believe what they want to believe? &nbsp;I was raised Catholic, but I'm not anymore. &nbsp;And this isn't because I was suddenly hit by the idea that Catholicism is a white man's religion. &nbsp;I mean, sure white people were the ones who tried to spread the love of Christ, but these days, people choose to believe whatever the fuck they want.
well, we're talking about convincing other people what to believe, or raising your kids to believe in a certain religion. we're not really talking about pointing a gun at someone and then telling him to recite hail marys. :)
Well I guess you can raise your kids under whatever religion you want, but when they get older and decide they want to explore other options.... it's basically up to them, don't you think? I mean, I got frustruated with my religion... despite how I was raised, I developed my own beliefs. So I guess I just don't get what this topic is all about. *Sigh* How can a religion BELONG to somebody?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 22 2002, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 21 2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 21 2002, 02:45 PM
Why can't people just believe what they want to believe? I was raised Catholic, but I'm not anymore. And this isn't because I was suddenly hit by the idea that Catholicism is a white man's religion. I mean, sure white people were the ones who tried to spread the love of Christ, but these days, people choose to believe whatever the fuck they want.
well, we're talking about convincing other people what to believe, or raising your kids to believe in a certain religion. we're not really talking about pointing a gun at someone and then telling him to recite hail marys. :)
Well I guess you can raise your kids under whatever religion you want, but when they get older and decide they want to explore other options.... it's basically up to them, don't you think? I mean, I got frustruated with my religion... despite how I was raised, I developed my own beliefs. So I guess I just don't get what this topic is all about. *Sigh* How can a religion BELONG to somebody?
well i think it was just metaphoric speak to say that Catholicism/Christianity is a white man's religion. it is mainly practiced by white people. and historically it has been used by Europeans for cultural imperialism in Asia, and in some cases even literal imperialistic takeovers (Vietnam, Philippines, etc).

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 22 2002, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 22 2002, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 21 2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 21 2002, 02:45 PM
Why can't people just believe what they want to believe? I was raised Catholic, but I'm not anymore. And this isn't because I was suddenly hit by the idea that Catholicism is a white man's religion. I mean, sure white people were the ones who tried to spread the love of Christ, but these days, people choose to believe whatever the fuck they want.
well, we're talking about convincing other people what to believe, or raising your kids to believe in a certain religion. we're not really talking about pointing a gun at someone and then telling him to recite hail marys. :)
Well I guess you can raise your kids under whatever religion you want, but when they get older and decide they want to explore other options.... it's basically up to them, don't you think? I mean, I got frustruated with my religion... despite how I was raised, I developed my own beliefs. So I guess I just don't get what this topic is all about. *Sigh* How can a religion BELONG to somebody?
well i think it was just metaphoric speak to say that Catholicism/Christianity is a white man's religion. it is mainly practiced by white people. and historically it has been used by Europeans for cultural imperialism in Asia, and in some cases even literal imperialistic takeovers (Vietnam, Philippines, etc).
But shouldn't beliefs be open to anybody who chooses to believe in them? Like, are you guys saying that because it's "a white man's relgion" that we shouldn't practice it? I don't get what anybody's really trying to say.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 22 2002, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 22 2002, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 22 2002, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 21 2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 21 2002, 02:45 PM
Why can't people just believe what they want to believe? I was raised Catholic, but I'm not anymore. And this isn't because I was suddenly hit by the idea that Catholicism is a white man's religion. I mean, sure white people were the ones who tried to spread the love of Christ, but these days, people choose to believe whatever the fuck they want.
well, we're talking about convincing other people what to believe, or raising your kids to believe in a certain religion. we're not really talking about pointing a gun at someone and then telling him to recite hail marys. :)
Well I guess you can raise your kids under whatever religion you want, but when they get older and decide they want to explore other options.... it's basically up to them, don't you think? I mean, I got frustruated with my religion... despite how I was raised, I developed my own beliefs. So I guess I just don't get what this topic is all about. *Sigh* How can a religion BELONG to somebody?
well i think it was just metaphoric speak to say that Catholicism/Christianity is a white man's religion. it is mainly practiced by white people. and historically it has been used by Europeans for cultural imperialism in Asia, and in some cases even literal imperialistic takeovers (Vietnam, Philippines, etc).
But shouldn't beliefs be open to anybody who chooses to believe in them? Like, are you guys saying that because it's "a white man's relgion" that we shouldn't practice it? I don't get what anybody's really trying to say.
i'm not sure if anybody else is saying that, but HH said that mr. HH is saying that because it's a "white man's" religion, he doesn't want his Chinese kids practicing it.



<!--EDIT|SunWuKung|Sep 22 2002, 04:48 PM-->

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 22 2002, 01:48 PM

i'm not sure if anybody else is saying that, but HH said that mr. HH is saying that because it's a "white man's" religion, he doesn't want his Chinese kids practicing it.
*nods* To that I would add that I miscalculated what my partner's reaction because I didn't anticipate his associating a baptism, which I believed to be a one time instance and not truly affect identity, with the cultural and historical precedence of missionaries in Asia.

After considering this for a few days, I realize that it may be too much of a sweeping change, even if I consider baptism a one-time event, it still may be too final a decision. The only issue I take with it now is that my husband disapproves of the religion I very loosely associate with. I feel like it's a dirty habit I have to keep to myself. The upshot of that is it needs to be examined between the two of us over time.

But if it comes down to it, I'll yield.



<!--EDIT|Hello_Hapa|Sep 22 2002, 01:59 PM-->

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 22 2002, 09:48 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 22 2002, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 22 2002, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 22 2002, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 21 2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 21 2002, 02:45 PM
Why can't people just believe what they want to believe? I was raised Catholic, but I'm not anymore. And this isn't because I was suddenly hit by the idea that Catholicism is a white man's religion. I mean, sure white people were the ones who tried to spread the love of Christ, but these days, people choose to believe whatever the fuck they want.
well, we're talking about convincing other people what to believe, or raising your kids to believe in a certain religion. we're not really talking about pointing a gun at someone and then telling him to recite hail marys. :)
Well I guess you can raise your kids under whatever religion you want, but when they get older and decide they want to explore other options.... it's basically up to them, don't you think? I mean, I got frustruated with my religion... despite how I was raised, I developed my own beliefs. So I guess I just don't get what this topic is all about. *Sigh* How can a religion BELONG to somebody?
well i think it was just metaphoric speak to say that Catholicism/Christianity is a white man's religion. it is mainly practiced by white people. and historically it has been used by Europeans for cultural imperialism in Asia, and in some cases even literal imperialistic takeovers (Vietnam, Philippines, etc).
But shouldn't beliefs be open to anybody who chooses to believe in them? Like, are you guys saying that because it's "a white man's relgion" that we shouldn't practice it? I don't get what anybody's really trying to say.
i'm not sure if anybody else is saying that, but HH said that mr. HH is saying that because it's a "white man's" religion, he doesn't want his Chinese kids practicing it.
Oh. That's dumb. I guess I can understand if he doesn't want to RAISE his kids to believe in Christianity... I personally don't want to impose any religion on my kids either. They can believe whatever they choose to believe in... and I'll give them all the chance in the world to learn about anything they want. But he should let them decide for themselves when they get older.

[thaite]

I really don't care for western Christianity. I don't think it remotely resembles the tenants of its roots, or even it's Middle Eastern counterparts. I do resent it's imperialistic practices. I also think it's a derivative religion whose origins have been distorted and covered up to maintain its facade of divinity.

And I think everybody ought to read this book. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1852305509/)

And my dad is Lutheran. He made us go to church when were kids, but it didn't last for very long because we hated it. And I've never been baptized or confirmed.



<!--EDIT|buoywonder|Sep 23 2002, 12:37 AM-->

[Hito]

It is funny you should post that BW
A friend of mine just recomended that to me.


Also have a look at
The book your church dosent want you to read (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0939040158/ref%3Dpd%5Fsim%5Fbooks/104-1328573-2862306)
And
Christianity before christ (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0910309205/qid=1033164449/sr=1-11/ref=sr_1_11/104-1328573-2862306?v=glance)

[phism]

"i talk about my dick because my dick is a religion"
- mac lethal

[Shuriken]

I'm not going to get into this discussion, but I was just wondering if most people here were familiar with the writer Frank Chin and his very strong opinions on this subject. I seems to me that Chin is the Asian American who has put forward the idea of Christianity as "the white man's religion" most forcefully (if not particularly persuasively).

Some of his arguments can be found in his introduction to The Big Aiiieeeee!: An Anthology of Chinese American and Japanese American Literature, published by the Meridian Press.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Oct 5 2002, 10:18 AM
I'm not going to get into this discussion, but I was just wondering if most people here were familiar with the writer Frank Chin and his very strong opinions on this subject. &nbsp;I seems to me that Chin is the Asian American who has put forward the idea of Christianity as "the white man's religion" most forcefully (if not particularly persuasively). &nbsp;

Some of his arguments can be found in his introduction to The Big Aiiieeeee!: An Anthology of Chinese American and Japanese American Literature, published by the Meridian Press.
The thrust of Frank Chin's argument? What is really Asian and what is not really Asian. Glad Frank clarified this for us.

I like Frank Chin. But some of his ideas are extremely patronizing.

[Faithless]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Sep 20 2002, 04:25 PM
When I told my husband that he immediately shot back that 'his Chinese children will not be worshipping a white man's god'. I was kinda miffed and said half smartassedly back "So, I should keep my backwards little religion to myself?" He said a little ashamedly, "Yes. I'm sorry I feel that way but yes."
Christianity may have been started by whites, but it certainly has been adopted by many non-whites.

It serves it's purpose, although I'm not a believer.

A church can be a good thing for a family / your kids. It all depends on the church.

If Mr. HH has in his mind the evangelical or conservative churches in his mind, then I would agree with him.

But if you are talking about a liberal one, one that welcomes all, even gays, then Mr. HH should reconsider.

(How's that for sounding like Anne Landers?)

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by ChottoMatte@Jul 2 2003, 06:49 PM
If Mr. HH has in his mind the evangelical or conservative churches in his mind, then I would agree with him.

But if you are talking about a liberal one, one that welcomes all, even gays, then Mr. HH should reconsider.
In otherwords, if Mr. HH agrees with your politics, he can say whatever he wants. If not, he should change what he says.

Seriously no offense intended but that was one of the more patronizing things I've seen written about politics :P

Also, most churches actually run by Asians, especially the Protestant ones, are far more theologically conservative than white churches, regarding ordination of women, gays, abortion, etc. They also tend to have more of an evangelical bent. It's the white-dominated urban Episcopal churches which are "liberal" and "welcome all."

[AngryABCGirl]

Is Christianity at its root a Jewish Man's religion? Jesus was a Jew wasn't he? That makes the situation kind of odd.

Anyway, I grew up in the church life so to speak because my mom and my grandma took me, but stopped going as a teenager because I didn't agree with the teachings of Christianity and thought it was shit. My entire church was Chinese so it never crossed my mind to associate it as a white man's religion.

In my opinion, I think religion and your moral beliefs which aren't religious are at its roots something very private and personal that transcends something as simple as color but rather as a reflection of who you are truly, deeply.

[BeTheReds]

As a Christian (tho not a very strong one admittendly) I would like to affirm that Christianity is NOT the "White Man's Religion."

I grew up going to a church that was predominantly black possibly 40% of it was black, 20% was recent african immigrant, the rest hispanic white and Asian (tho very few Asians). Aside from the fact that although my church was an anomoly since it was so multiracial, the mere fact also is that the people in my church are some of the most tolerant good natured loving people in the world. My white pastor's daughter married a black man and no one even mentioned the racial implications, black or white. Usually the white people would be angry at the black people for "stealing our pre white women" or something, and then Black women would be angry at the black man for not keepin it real.

Anyone who can say that it is a religion of oppression does not understand Christianity. Anyone who used it to oppress someone also is not a Christian, or somehow failed to understand the main message.

[rakovlam]

The Christian Century
What's the world's fastest-growing religion? (Hint: Not Islam.)

Sunday, December 29, 2002 12:01 a.m. EST

As the world celebrates Christmas, it's a good time to take stock of the religion behind this holy day. Contrary to perceived wisdom, Christianity is booming.

For obvious reasons, the big story of late has been the growth of Islam, especially in poor and populous parts of the world. That news contrasts with reports suggesting Christianity is in serious decline. Europe, long the center of the Christian world, is experiencing falling birth rates, aging congregants and increased secularism. In North America, scandals such as the Catholic Church's over sexual misconduct suggest a faith in trouble.

But all of this ignores the world outside the West. As Penn State University Professor Philip Jenkins explains in his new book, "The Next Christendom," the largest populations of Christians on the planet are in Africa and Latin America--and they continue to grow at phenomenal rates. As a result, "in its variety and vitality, in its global reach, in its association with the world's fastest-growing societies . . . it is Christianity that will leave the deepest mark on the twenty-first century," Mr. Jenkins writes in The Atlantic Monthly.

In 1900, Africa had 10 million Christians, or about 9% of its population. Today that continent is home to 360 million Christians out of 784 million people, or 46%. Latin America has 480 million Christians, and Asia another 313 million. By 2025 Christians will be by far the world's largest faith at 2.6 billion, with half of that in Latin America and Africa, and another 17% in Asia.





As Professor Jenkins notes, this boom will redefine regions, politics and Christianity itself. While the liberal and secular West has long been pushing for greater reform in its churches, the fast-growing Christian populations of the Southern Hemisphere are flocking to more radical sects such as Pentecostalism, or are demanding a return to more conservative forms of Catholicism. What this rift will mean for governing bodies like the Vatican is unclear.
Given Christianity's influence in countries that are moving toward democracy, religion itself is likely to play a key role in the ultimate shape of these nations. The record has been encouraging to date, with African and Asian church leaders using their popularity to insert Christian principles of justice and morality into the political realm, such as the role played by South African churches in ending apartheid. At some point, however, these nations will face questions about church-state divides or tolerance for religious minorities. Given the growth of Islam in the same areas, it also raises the potential for more conflicts like those in Sudan, Nigeria or Indonesia.

What does this mean for the traditional Christian centers of Europe and North America? The center of Christianity is definitely moving to Africa, Latin America and Asia, though interestingly those adherents are bringing their religions back to Europe and the U.S. Declining birthrates in Europe will likely bring greater immigration, much of it fueled by active Christians from poorer regions like Africa. This is already happening; Professor Jenkins cites London's Kingsway International Christian Center, founded in 1992 by a Nigerian pastor, which is now said to be the largest church created in Britain since 1861.

America, with its faster birthrates and immigration, will continue to see Christian growth for years to come. Even with all of its diversity today, the number of Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and Hindus in the U.S. is exceedingly small, amounting to only 4% or 5% of the population, and that percentage isn't likely to change much in the foreseeable future. America may not see Africa's Christian boom, but the vitality and change that has marked Christianity for so long will continue to mark the American experiment too.

article (http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110002827)

White man's God, eh? Then how is so unpopular with whites and so popular with non-whites?

[Emperor_Mike]

God doesn't belong to a single race. He belongs to everyone. All this rot going about in some parts of the world concerning the segregation of religion is sheer lunacy, if you ask me. This is how religious conflict erupts.

[Faithless]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jul 2 2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by ChottoMatte@Jul 2 2003, 06:49 PM
If Mr. HH has in his mind the evangelical or conservative churches in his mind, then I would agree with him.

But if you are talking about a liberal one, one that welcomes all, even gays, then Mr. HH should reconsider.
In otherwords, if Mr. HH agrees with your politics, he can say whatever he wants. If not, he should change what he says.

Seriously no offense intended but that was one of the more patronizing things I've seen written about politics :P

Also, most churches actually run by Asians, especially the Protestant ones, are far more theologically conservative than white churches, regarding ordination of women, gays, abortion, etc. They also tend to have more of an evangelical bent. It's the white-dominated urban Episcopal churches which are "liberal" and "welcome all."
Patronizing? Maybe. Remember, Mrs. HH was asking for our opinions. And I'm all to happy to give mine on this topic. :rolleyes:

If it is indeed the white-dominated urban Episcopal churches which are "liberal" and "welcome all" -- amen (so be it). I can't be positive, but I'll assume that HH would rather her kiddies go to a church where the lessons welcome all rather than rebuke many. B)

Wifie and I got married in a white-dominated church, even though her family had strong ties to a Chinese American dominated conservative church. The pastors were her family's friends, but what they said most Sundays rubbed me the wrong way.

We got married but a female pastor in a liberal church.

[Faithless]

Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jul 2 2003, 09:50 PM
God doesn't belong to a single race. He belongs to everyone. All this rot going about in some parts of the world concerning the segregation of religion is sheer lunacy, if you ask me. This is how religious conflict erupts.
He, she, or it? God maybe all things, but I think it is undefined, too.

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by ChottoMatte@Jul 2 2003, 11:00 PM
He, she, or it? God maybe all things, but I think it is undefined, too.
Whoops. Made a slip there. It was the staunch Roman Catholic that showed through with the "He" because it's the way I was taught. ;)

Funny too because I posted a reply in some other thread saying that God is likely an entity made up of energy. :D

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by AzNBuffGrL@Jul 2 2003, 07:39 PM
In my opinion, I think religion and your moral beliefs which aren't religious are at its roots something very private and personal that transcends something as simple as color but rather as a reflection of who you are truly, deeply.
One may argue that if that's the case then the beliefs of truly evil men and women out in the world may, in some odd manner, form the core of a religion built on hate, mistrust, and intolerance.

But I get what you're trying to say. Many people associate religion with the inherent good found in Humanity and not many give pause to think that like many things in life, religion can be twisted into a perverse entity that leads to ruin and conflict. We needn't look further than fundamentalist Christian and Islamic sects to see what Humanity has done to undermine the original aspects of the faith.

[Faithless]

Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jul 3 2003, 12:03 AM
Whoops. Made a slip there. It was the staunch Roman Catholic that showed through with the "He" because it's the way I was taught. ;)

Funny too because I posted a reply in some other thread saying that God is likely an entity made up of energy. :D
I tend toward god being a she, when I discuss god anthropomorphically. B)

[ChairmanMah]

after reading all this, it still doesn't answer the question clearly "What is the point of religion?"

i think it is for weak minded people or ones that need to feel a belonging to something bigger because they can't live with themselves..

religion is so outdated.

------------------------------

maybe the reason why i feel this way is due to my somewhat loner mentality.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by ChottoMatte@Jul 3 2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jul 3 2003, 12:03 AM
Whoops. Made a slip there. It was the staunch Roman Catholic that showed through with the "He" because it's the way I was taught. ;)

Funny too because I posted a reply in some other thread saying that God is likely an entity made up of energy. :D
I tend toward god being a she, when I discuss god anthropomorphically. B)
Another advantage of switching to one of the hundreds of languages with non-gendered pronouns. :P

(Not to say that they don't have this debate, it just comes up a lot less often)

[mr. x]

i didnt bother to read any previous posts but im sure someones covered what i have to say

anyway i find it ironic that a "white man's" religion was founded in the mideast by a non-white man, if anything u could make the claim that it was "hijacked" by the white man and he shaped it to his own vision

[mr. x]

interestingly enough theres a lot of christian asians in my area and i wonder how this came about. my bro is christian but i am not and neither of my parents are. i like christian asian girls though cuz they tend to be "clean"

the others tend to smoke and swear like sailors

[AngryABCGirl]

Originally posted by mr. x@Jul 3 2003, 05:20 PM

the others tend to smoke and swear like sailors
^ me, cept I stopped smoking and I stopped going to church too. Yeah, there are tons and tons of Chinese churches where I live, and I know there are al ot of Korean ones too in OC and K-town, I don't exactly know how this came about.

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by ChairmanMah@Jul 3 2003, 02:59 PM
after reading all this, it still doesn't answer the question clearly "What is the point of religion?"

i think it is for weak minded people or ones that need to feel a belonging to something bigger because they can't live with themselves..

religion is so outdated.

------------------------------

maybe the reason why i feel this way is due to my somewhat loner mentality.
I am hardly what one would call a weak minded person nor have I ever felt the pressing need to "belong" to any group other than the one made up of me, myself, and I. ;)

For me religion is the only thing that holds me back from doing really bad/nasty things to people for the sake of advancing my personal agenda and ambitions. If I had nothing like the Good Book (specifically the teachings of Christ) to guide me and to act as a form of moral restraint I'd probably be out there lying, cheating, ruining and blackmailing anyone who gets in the way of my goals. And I would too, since (and I'm completely unabashed about admitting this) my greatest demon comes in the form of a relentless lust for power. Before any one of you think that I'm insane, let me first state that without moral and ethical restraints in society (in the form of law or religion) every one of you would likely slaughter each other for things like love and/or money because there's nothing to hold you back.

Ultimately, the reason why we have religion is for more or less the same reason why we have laws: to provide a set of guidelines for each and every one of us to observe when living our lives on a day to day basis. You don't have believe in God to know that killing people for monetary gain is wrong. The law says that, sure, but one can argue that the basis for early law can be found in religious texts and teachings.

[ChairmanMah]

Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jul 3 2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by ChairmanMah@Jul 3 2003, 02:59 PM
after reading all this, it still doesn't answer the question clearly "What is the point of religion?"

i think it is for weak minded people or ones that need to feel a belonging to something bigger because they can't live with themselves..

religion is so outdated.

------------------------------

maybe the reason why i feel this way is due to my somewhat loner mentality.
I am hardly what one would call a weak minded person nor have I ever felt the pressing need to "belong" to any group other than the one made up of me, myself, and I. ;)

For me religion is the only thing that holds me back from doing really bad/nasty things to people for the sake of advancing my personal agenda and ambitions. If I had nothing like the Good Book (specifically the teachings of Christ) to guide me and to act as a form of moral restraint I'd probably be out there lying, cheating, ruining and blackmailing anyone who gets in the way of my goals. And I would too, since (and I'm completely unabashed about admitting this) my greatest demon comes in the form of a relentless lust for power. Before any one of you think that I'm insane, let me first state that without moral and ethical restraints in society (in the form of law or religion) every one of you would likely slaughter each other for things like love and/or money because there's nothing to hold you back.

Ultimately, the reason why we have religion is for more or less the same reason why we have laws: to provide a set of guidelines for each and every one of us to observe when living our lives on a day to day basis. You don't have believe in God to know that killing people for monetary gain is wrong. The law says that, sure, but one can argue that the basis for early law can be found in religious texts and teachings.
maybe not all who are religious are weak minded but some of those prayer shows just look so boring and a waste of time. It looks like those masses are getting brainwashed.

I guess it's just in my mind because i have no interest in that type of thing. I think they are all crazy.

i guess it all depends on how you interpret it.

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by ChairmanMah@Jul 3 2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by Emperor_Mike@Jul 3 2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by ChairmanMah@Jul 3 2003, 02:59 PM
after reading all this, it still doesn't answer the question clearly "What is the point of religion?"

i think it is for weak minded people or ones that need to feel a belonging to something bigger because they can't live with themselves..

religion is so outdated.

------------------------------

maybe the reason why i feel this way is due to my somewhat loner mentality.
I am hardly what one would call a weak minded person nor have I ever felt the pressing need to "belong" to any group other than the one made up of me, myself, and I. ;)

For me religion is the only thing that holds me back from doing really bad/nasty things to people for the sake of advancing my personal agenda and ambitions. If I had nothing like the Good Book (specifically the teachings of Christ) to guide me and to act as a form of moral restraint I'd probably be out there lying, cheating, ruining and blackmailing anyone who gets in the way of my goals. And I would too, since (and I'm completely unabashed about admitting this) my greatest demon comes in the form of a relentless lust for power. Before any one of you think that I'm insane, let me first state that without moral and ethical restraints in society (in the form of law or religion) every one of you would likely slaughter each other for things like love and/or money because there's nothing to hold you back.

Ultimately, the reason why we have religion is for more or less the same reason why we have laws: to provide a set of guidelines for each and every one of us to observe when living our lives on a day to day basis. You don't have believe in God to know that killing people for monetary gain is wrong. The law says that, sure, but one can argue that the basis for early law can be found in religious texts and teachings.
maybe not all who are religious are weak minded but some of those prayer shows just look so boring and a waste of time. It looks like those masses are getting brainwashed.

I guess it's just in my mind because i have no interest in that type of thing. I think they are all crazy.

i guess it all depends on how you interpret it.
I attend Mass every Sunday. We have a Catholic chaplain at Durham and when I'm back in BC there's the community church. It's terribly boring but the music is good (at least back home it is.) I go mainly for Communion and for the Gospel readings followed by the homily. Everything else is just filler stuff to make Mass an hour and a half long.

But it's better than the Latin mass though. Those things last anywhere from two to three hours.

[Cipherous]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Sep 20 2002, 04:25 PM

When I told my husband that he immediately shot back that 'his Chinese children will not be worshipping a white man's god'. I was kinda miffed and said half smartassedly back "So, I should keep my backwards little religion to myself?" He said a little ashamedly, "Yes. I'm sorry I feel that way but yes."

We talked it out and I explained what baptism is and that it was the only thing I wanted. Just that once. So, he said we can talk about it again when we actually have children but he disapproves of it overall.

Wow, he said his "chinese kids". They're not American, not even half American since you're the mother?

Is he dominant male type of guy? If so, it could lead to further problems.

[Faithless]

Originally posted by mr. x@Jul 3 2003, 05:17 PM
i didnt bother to read any previous posts but im sure someones covered what i have to say

anyway i find it ironic that a "white man's" religion was founded in the mideast by a non-white man, if anything u could make the claim that it was "hijacked" by the white man and he shaped it to his own vision
Which white man are you talking about? King James or the Aryan race that believes that Jesus was Aryan, too?

[yoMAMA]

I can't stand christianity, in any form, but not because of 'race', but because of its untolerant, hateful, genocidal history-in every continent of the world.

A few examples:

the dark ages-including burning people for simply telling the truth
spanish inqusition
the religious wars in europe
colonialism
christian crimes in china
the genocide of native americans
the holocaust
the sexual crimes right now and their cover ups....

[BeTheReds]

This is not Christianity's fault. Those who did these things are not Christians, they used religion to sway people into doing evil things.

[yoMAMA]

off course it's not their fault.

[achtungbaby]

Please try and keep a lid on the Christianity-bashing. There's no need to refer to Christians (or Muslims or Buddhism or whatever) as a "loser religion."

[Faithless]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 6 2003, 06:20 PM
This is not Christianity's fault. Those who did these things are not Christians, they used religion to sway people into doing evil things.
But it seems that conservative Christians always use Christianity in that manner -- as a method of running some conservative agenda.

That's why I am hesitant to send my kids to a Christian church -- no matter how cute they make VBS (Vacation Bible School) sound.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by ChottoMatte@Jul 7 2003, 09:24 AM
But it seems that conservative Christians always use Christianity in that manner -- as a method of running some conservative agenda.

I'm sure it's already been said, but not all Christians are out to promote a right-wing agenda. It's very easy to confuse Biblical tenets with issues like welfare reform, cutting taxes and being against affirmative action (in fact, a lot of Christians get mixed up on these ideas themselves).

[Faithless]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jul 7 2003, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by ChottoMatte@Jul 7 2003, 09:24 AM
But it seems that conservative Christians always use Christianity in that manner -- as a method of running some conservative agenda.

I'm sure it's already been said, but not all Christians are out to promote a right-wing agenda. It's very easy to confuse Biblical tenets with issues like welfare reform, cutting taxes and being against affirmative action (in fact, a lot of Christians get mixed up on these ideas themselves).
Agreed not all Christians. But conservative Christians seem to have this desire to do so.

And you are right it is easy to confuse the Biblical tenets with today's issues. You really have to pay attention to the commentary from the various Biblical scholars. But then everyone's a Biblical scholar. :rolleyes:

Christianity is sort of a mental mine field for the Biblically uneducated. The Bible is filled with references that can be easily taken literally and turned into these tenets. Without the intellectual insight to peruse the various scholarly commentaries, one would be left to believe that the references should be followed.

That's why my suggestion to HH would be avoid the conservative churches. They seem to avoid the literary context of the Bible and opt for the literal context.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by ChottoMatte@Jul 7 2003, 09:40 AM
That's why my suggestion to HH would be avoid the conservative churches. They seem to avoid the literary context of the Bible and opt for the literal context.
I'd say just look for a church that can find a balance between not hating on other people too much and also not painting the Christian walk as a bowl of cherries either.

[yoMAMA]

I would never send my kids to any christian school, church, or anything whats so ever that has association with christianity.

My kids will grow up in a hate free environment. B)

[Faithless]

Originally posted by yoMAMA@Jul 7 2003, 09:16 AM
I would never send my kids to any christian school, church, or anything whats so ever that has association with christianity.

My kids will grow up in a hate free environment. B)
I hear that.

But there are hate-free Christian environments. How you find them is another story.

I know that the United Church of Christ is supposedly hate free. Although there are churches that have adopted the UCC denomination but practice conservatively.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by yoMAMA@Jul 7 2003, 10:16 AM
My kids will grow up in a hate free environment. B)
You could make a strong argument for the reverse, also.

*Puts on anti-liberal media hat*

You could make a strong argument that our popular conceptions of "Christianity" in America have always been steadily balanced out by images of hate, racism, and intolerance, and that persistent necessitation towards such a "balance" in fact obscures the shit-load of positive things that have come out of the Christian community; indeed, the Christian fucking religion:)

Christianity wasn't always Jerry Falwell. How about Martin Luther King, Jr.?

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by ChottoMatte@Jul 7 2003, 01:32 PM
I know that the United Church of Christ is supposedly hate free.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the UCC a cult?

[Faithless]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jul 7 2003, 03:22 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the UCC a cult?
God, I hope not. We got married by a pastor under that denomination.

There are other "Church of Christ" denominations that are cultish, according to a google search.

Maybe it was this particular church that we married in, but they seem to be accepting of things like gay unions.

http://www.ucc.org/theology/acton1.htm

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by ChottoMatte@Jul 8 2003, 05:32 AM


I know that the United Church of Christ is supposedly hate free. Although there are churches that have adopted the UCC denomination but practice conservatively.
Way to defend christianity by promoting the MOONIES! Thanks a lot.

Christianity is hate free. True Christians hate no-one.

The only conservative views my church ever churned out was pro-life, and anti-gay, and anti-sex before marriage.

There was nothing in there about having to hate people based on their race.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by ChottoMatte@Jul 7 2003, 04:42 PM
God, I hope not. We got married by a pastor under that denomination.

There are other "Church of Christ" denominations that are cultish, according to a google search.

Maybe it was this particular church that we married in, but they seem to be accepting of things like gay unions.

http://www.ucc.org/theology/acton1.htm
Well "Church of Christ" is a pretty generic name I guess, and it's been a while since I've been hip to Christian church circles, but...

...the Church of Christ I remember was definitely cultish, at least by your typical fundamendalist, American standards of what a cult is (doctrines that borrow from the Judeo-Christian bible but deviate in other ways). From what I recall, the Church of Christ was cultish in that they used to be extremely dogmatic in all facets of their faith, whether by charity or renouncing sin...but topped it off by proclaiming that their church body was the only one that followed the true tenets of the Bible, and hence, was the only place you could receive salvation... :ph34r:

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 7 2003, 04:49 PM
The only conservative views my church ever churned out was pro-life, and anti-gay, and anti-sex before marriage.

There was nothing in there about having to hate people based on their race.
Lotta good that did you! Aren't you pro-choice, pro-gay and pro-sex before marriage?:)

[BeTheReds]

No, I'm actually neither of those. I am in the middle somewhere.

I am pro-choice, but I don't think abortion should be used as a form of birth control. Also people who have abortions frequently shouldn't be having sex, although I am aware that people do make mistakes.

I am tolerant towards gays, but I am slightly homophobic. Seeing gays and lesbians doing public displays of affection bothers me. However, I would never refuse to help someone or work with or befriend someone who is gay.

I think people should be dating exclusively at the very least before they start doing it with each other.

[achtungbaby]

I was just kiddin. I had no preconceptions of your ideas towards that stuff;)

[Faithless]

So, what's a mama HH to do? It's all in her family's belief, then.

It gets really tricky when, in the family, there are opposite sides to the important issues of the day.

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by ChottoMatte@Jul 7 2003, 10:49 PM
So, what's a mama HH to do? It's all in her family's belief, then.

It gets really tricky when, in the family, there are opposite sides to the important issues of the day.
Wow, you're really interested in this. I'd give more input but it was resolved almost a year ago and I don't have anything new to report. Busy trying to make the kids we can torture and fight over. But, about the belief, I don't really have any. I'm not a church goer, and that's putting it mildly. I thought I was going to be struck down by lightning when I entered a church to attend a funeral last year. What hit me so hard was my spouse's reaction, mostly because he's so easy going. I still forget from time to time that he isn't very culturally American.

[Faithless]

I'm not a church goer, and that's putting it mildly. I thought I was going to be struck down by lightning when I entered a church to attend a funeral last year.
That's the way I feel everytime I go to church to appease the family.

I just about have to bite my tongue when the preacher men start to say, "well you know gays...".

I know one preacher man who was dumn enough to insult blacks in his sermon with a black person in the audience. Maybe it was deliberate. :frown:

[seanp]

Yes, I believe religion is fitted to culture, unless christianity is absorbed into east asian culture like buddhism which is praticed with taoism, confucianism in China.

[Seamus]

i'm not sure if anybody else is saying that, but HH said that mr. HH is saying that because it's a "white man's" religion, he doesn't want his Chinese kids practicing it.
<!--EDIT|SunWuKung|Sep 22 2002, 04:48 PM-->

When you guys have kids, don't baptise them right away. Have them go to mass with you every once in a while, and then let them decide for themselves later on. Of course, I realize that this is tough within the Catholic church, because it's easier to go through baptism, catechism, confirmation, first communion, etc., as a child than to have to catch up later. But if it turns out that they're serious about the faith, it shouldn't be an issue. I'm not Catholic, or even that religious, but it's the denomination I associate with most closely for various sociopolitical and intellectual reasons.

[achtungbaby]

Wow, how did this topic get pulled up again...? Anyway, if this thread is gonna continue, please stay on topic.

[Seamus]

How was I not staying on topic? Kimpossible was wondering whether she should raise her kids RC, ethnicity was part of the issue, and I was giving her my viewpoint.

[hooligan]

let me just add that frank chin hates on christianity. he blames christianity and christian missionaries for the 500 years of opium wars in china and then some. personally, i don't think the chinese culture is very compatible with christianity. especially with chinese beliefs that involve ancestor worship and ghosts.

[mr. x]

Christianity was invented by darker skinned people so this discussion is absurd to me

[Seamus]

personally, i don't think the chinese culture is very compatible with christianity. especially with chinese beliefs that involve ancestor worship and ghosts.

While I don't subscribe to Christianity, in particular Protestantism, I think it's a good thing for China today insofar as it is an additional source of alternative ideology to challenge the official authoritarian patriotic "socialism with Chinese characteristics." Perhaps this is an imperfect example, but look at the English Revolution and the following civil war: there was a proliferation of strange messianic religions that served as a precursor to the overthrow of Charles I. Also, there's sort of a spiritual vacuum in China due to the obsolescence of communist ideology, so I can see Christianity becoming very popular there. I think Christianity has a bright future in China despite the "incompatibility."

I have visited congregations in Anhui and Urumqi--inland locations and not coastal cities with no historical European presence--and the people there were quite fervent. Of course, most citizens of the Chinese state are still pretty secular.

[hooligan]

While I don't subscribe to Christianity, in particular Protestantism, I think it's a good thing for China today insofar as it is an additional source of alternative ideology to challenge the official authoritarian patriotic "socialism with Chinese characteristics." Perhaps this is an imperfect example, but look at the English Revolution and the following civil war: there was a proliferation of strange messianic religions that served as a precursor to the overthrow of Charles I. Also, there's sort of a spiritual vacuum in China due to the obsolescence of communist ideology, so I can see Christianity becoming very popular there. I think Christianity has a bright future in China despite the "incompatibility."ooo. i was speaking in terms of identity and beliefs. i was brought up with a lot of "chinese cultura" beliefs and i found it incompatible with say some of the beliefs with christianity. it's hard for me to relate to christian culture.

[Seamus]

ooo. i was speaking in terms of identity and beliefs. i was brought up with a lot of "chinese cultura" beliefs and i found it incompatible with say some of the beliefs with christianity. it's hard for me to relate to christian culture.

That's true. But "Chinese beliefs" aren't really compatible with another European import--Marxism-Leninism--and look what happened there (though I may be sabotaging my own argument because communism is not exactly the predominant ideology there anymore). I don't think the ancestor worship and other traditions really survive in mainland China. The people are a lot more nontraditional than, say, Hongkongers and Taiwanese, perhaps making them more vulnerable/open to Christianity. Perhaps in a traditional society organized around close-knit family units, it's harder for foreign religions to infiltrate, but most non-rural Chinese these days are isolated, individualistic, latter-day Menschen. The most traditional-seeming people I met in China were the Muslims, who already have their own religion. Again, I'm not advocating Christianity, but rather, making a disinterested observation.

[hooligan]

That's true. But "Chinese beliefs" aren't really compatible with another European import--Marxism-Leninism--and look what happened there (though I may be sabotaging my own argument because communism is not exactly the predominant ideology there anymore). I don't think the ancestor worship and other traditions really survive in mainland China. The people are a lot more nontraditional than, say, Hongkongers and Taiwanese, perhaps making them more vulnerable/open to Christianity. The most traditional-seeming people I met in China were the Muslims, who already have their own religion. Again, I'm not advocating Christianity, but rather, making a disinterested observation.
you're rirght. when buddhism took over china it incorporated a lot of the chinese cultural beliefs. christianity, i think, is trying to do the same thing a lot of what the bible says straight up contradicts a lot of the things that chinese believe. marxism and leninism is interesting. i thought the whole idea of the communal and social structure really spoke to chinese communities. my parents grew up in taiwan and still do the whole ancestor worship thing, burn punks, goes to the temple to burn paper monies, and they believe in ghosts. their beliefs have rubbed off on me.

[Seamus]

Random note: I heard that Kuanyinpusa (Avalokitesvara?) was actually sort of a Buddhist/Catholic (Virgin Mary) hybrid. I don't know whether this is true or not.

What about Islam (among the Huizu, not the ethnic Turks who are culturally very un-"Chinese")? Would you say it's taken on a lot of Chinese characteristics? I think that today, Islam is probably the most pivotal world religion in mainland China in terms of numbers and influence. It seems that Buddhism has been relegated to the status of folk belief among the Hanzu.

[hooligan]

Random note: I heard that Kuanyinpusa (Avalokitesvara?) was actually sort of a Buddhist/Catholic (Virgin Mary) hybrid. I don't know whether this is true or not.

What about Islam (among the Huizu, not the ethnic Turks who are culturally very un-"Chinese")? Would you say it's taken on a lot of Chinese characteristics? I think that today, Islam is probably the most pivotal world religion in mainland China in terms of numbers and influence. It seems that Buddhism has been relegated to the status of folk belief.
haha, yeah, that's me. i'm pretty folksy.

[Yeahman]

personally, i don't think the chinese culture is very compatible with christianity. especially with chinese beliefs that involve ancestor worship and ghosts.
They once said that about Korea. Now Christians are a majority in Korea.

[hooligan]

They once said that about Korea. Now Christians are a majority in Korea.
what happened with the traditional beliefs? gone the way of the buffalo (wings).

[Yeahman]

what happened with the traditional beliefs? gone the way of the buffalo (wings).
Well a lot of it was the result of plain old westernization, not religion.
But Korean Catholics tend to hold on to a lot of the traditional practices like ancestor worship.

ok fukc! My post didn't go through! I have to retype it!
When you guys have kids, don't baptise them right away. Have them go to mass with you every once in a while, and then let them decide for themselves later on. Of course, I realize that this is tough within the Catholic church, because it's easier to go through baptism, catechism, confirmation, first communion, etc., as a child than to have to catch up later. But if it turns out that they're serious about the faith, it shouldn't be an issue. I'm not Catholic, or even that religious, but it's the denomination I associate with most closely for various sociopolitical and intellectual reasons.
That's what confirmation is for. Catholics are obligated to have their children baptized ASAP. When the child gets older he can choose whether or not to confirm his baptism.

As for the original post, it reminded me of that episode of all in the family where atheist Mike doesn't want his kid baptized but Archie secretly baptizes the kid anyway.

Even during the 4 years I was a totally non-religious person, I still knew that I wanted my future kids to be baptized Catholics. It's really hard for some non-Catholics to understand that. Catholicism is a culture and unlike a belief, you can't let go of your culture so easily.

It's because of problems like kimpossible's that the Church does not allow Catholics to marry non-Catholics unless their children are to be brought up as Catholics.

As for it being a white man's religion, it's true that it's been dominated by whites for a long time. They dominated a lot of things for a while. Today it is in the process of being dominated by Latin Americans. The Philippines has one of the highest concentration of Catholics in the world. If we reject something simply because it was the culture of the west then we should stop wearing these western clothes or typing in a western language.

[BigLew]

Question, how many people have actually avidly read the bible. Anyone ever read it from cover to cover? As the adopted son of a white Lutheran minister I have and was force fed when I grew up. I find many Christians don't even realize what is in thier own book. So being that I was forced to read the bible I started reading parts I wanted and not parts that my father wanted. Now I realize that the bible, particularily the old testement is one of the most racist and hypocritical pieces of literature ever conjured by man.

[Seamus]

That's what confirmation is for. Catholics are obligated to have their children baptized ASAP. When the child gets older he can choose whether or not to confirm his baptism.


Yeah, I forgot about that part. I've been talking to too many crazy Anabaptists.

What denominations do you think are the most common among Asian Americans? I surmise the following, though I could be way off. It's based on my biassed personal sample (though almost all of my friends are Catholic or nonreligious. I have one friend who grew up in the Dutch Reformed Church):

Chinese:
1. Roman Catholic
2. Baptist
3. Presbyterian
4. Methodist

Japanese:
I have no clue, as I don't know any Japanese Christians.

Korean:
1. Baptist
2. Presbyterian?

Filipino:
Duh!

[kuilong]

Question, how many people have actually avidly read the bible. Anyone ever read it from cover to cover? As the adopted son of a white Lutheran minister I have and was force fed when I grew up. I find many Christians don't even realize what is in thier own book. So being that I was forced to read the bible I started reading parts I wanted and not parts that my father wanted. Now I realize that the bible, particularily the old testement is one of the most racist and hypocritical pieces of literature ever conjured by man.

Hahah, several of my friends claim that it was reading the Bible that made them atheists.

Actually, I'm surprised. Read any book from the 19th-early 20th centuries and the casual assumption of European superiority hits you like a sack of bricks. Even as late as my grandfather's time, his textbooks (which I found in the attic a few years ago) are full of comments like "The Chinese are a hardworking and industrious people who look very much like one another." and "In the past few centuries, the achievements of European civilization have greatly surpassed those of others." The Bible seems relatively tame compared to some of them.

Oh well. I enjoyed reading it.

[krome]

I'm Catholic, technically speaking, because I was baptised as an infant and that's what my parents told me I am. I hated Sunday school and with the molestation epidemic in the Catholic church - I'm not sure I even would want to go to mass again.

However, due to either culture or some last shred of desire to keep my family's religion, I *might* want to have my kids baptised as infants. That's it

Irish are pretty Catholic.
No offense, but it sounds like you know little to nothing about Christianity and are just blindly attempting to follow tradition here. This is actually de rigeur amongst most Judeo-Christians, sadly enough. But do you know how much damage that type of ignorant, cultish, sheepish behavior has wreaked upon society - and this world - past, present and future???

TRUE Irish were Celtic Pagans - until Christianity came thru and steamrolled them all over. So, perhaps you should explore Paganism as well if you really want to get in touch with your Irish roots? Otherwise, frankly, you are just continuing the cycle of ignorance here. Why indoctrinate them into a cult that you admittedly don't even believe in??? :confused:

I say, first research it HEAVILY and come to YOUR OWN opinion about it, BEFORE just trying to blindly push it on your kids. Christianity in itself is a LOONGG topic that I can't delve into here with just a soundbite - but there are plenty of discussions on modelminority - and sage is a good expert on the subject as well.

[Yeahman]

What denominations do you think are the most common among Asian Americans? I surmise the following, though I could be way off. It's based on my biassed personal sample (though almost all of my friends are Catholic or nonreligious. I have one friend who grew up in the Dutch Reformed Church):

Chinese:
1. Roman Catholic
2. Baptist
3. Presbyterian
4. Methodist

Japanese:
I have no clue, as I don't know any Japanese Christians.

Korean:
1. Baptist
2. Presbyterian?

Filipino:
Duh!
Don't know about Chinese or Japanese. For Koreans I know it's...
1. Presbyterian
2. Catholic
3. Methodist

No offense, but it sounds like you know little to nothing about Christianity and are just blindly attempting to follow tradition here. This is actually de rigeur amongst most Judeo-Christians, sadly enough. But do you know how much damage that type of ignorant, cultish, sheepish behavior has wreaked upon society - and this world - past, present and future???
What kind of damage? Too many drunk people on St. Patrick's Day? Too hectic during the Christmas season? You get depressed on St. Valentine's Day?

[kuilong]

I'm Catholic, technically speaking, because I was baptised as an infant and that's what my parents told me I am.

Technically speaking, you're not Catholic -- even if you received the baptism, if you don't accept the teachings (http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm ) of the Roman Catholic Church, you're not in communion with Catholics. That's not to say that you won't be treated as non-Catholic or anything, look at Mel Gibson.

No offense, but it sounds like you know little to nothing about Christianity and are just blindly attempting to follow tradition here. This is actually de rigeur amongst most Judeo-Christians, sadly enough. But do you know how much damage that type of ignorant, cultish, sheepish behavior has wreaked upon society - and this world - past, present and future???

Oh please. The Holy See has no monopoly on ignorant, cultish, sheepish behavior and I suspect that without it human history would be just as bloody.

TRUE Irish were Celtic Pagans - until Christianity came thru and steamrolled them all over. So, perhaps you should explore Paganism as well if you really want to get in touch with your Irish roots? Otherwise, frankly, you are just continuing the cycle of ignorance here. Why indoctrinate them into a cult that you admittedly don't even believe in??? :confused:

Are you saying that the Irish today aren't "true Irish"? Obvious "No true Scotsman" fallacy.

And regardless of logical fallacies, using loaded words like "cult" hardly helps your argument here.

I say, first research it HEAVILY and come to YOUR OWN opinion about it, BEFORE just trying to blindly push it on your kids. Christianity in itself is a LOONGG topic that I can't delve into here with just a soundbite - but there are plenty of discussions on modelminority - and sage is a good expert on the subject as well.

I suppose I can't argue with that. But there are a large number of "cultural Catholics", which is complete reasonable, just like "secular Jews".

[mr. x]

well is Islam an arab-man's religion? then why so many SE Asians practice? rhetorical question btw

just saying

[BigLew]

Actually, I'm surprised. Read any book from the 19th-early 20th centuries and the casual assumption of European superiority hits you like a sack of bricks.... The Bible seems relatively tame compared to some of them....Bible doesn't teach European superiority it preaches Isreali superiority. Mostly just the old testament mind you. You also said the word tame, which leads me to believe that you realy haven't read that much.

So I'll help you out a little.


When you draw near to a city to fight against it, offer terms of peace to it. And if its answer to you is peace and it opens to you, then all the people who are found in it shall do forced labor for you and shall serve you. But if it makes no peace with you, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it; and when the LORD your God gives it into your hand you shall put all its males to the sword, but the women and the little ones, the cattle, and everything else in the city, all its spoil, you shall take as booty for yourseves; and you shall enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the LORD your God has given you. Thus you shall do to all the cities which are very far from you, which are not cities of the nations here. But in the cities of these peoples that the LORD your God gives you for an inheritance, you shall save nothing that breathes . . .Deuteronomy 20:10-16.

You must not make your brother pay interest, interest on money, interest on food, interest on anything on which one may claim interest. You may make a gentile pay interest but your brother you must not make pay interest. Deuteronomy 23: 19-20

(Gentiles) shall rebuild your walls, and their kings shall minister to you . . . Your gates shall be open continuously; day and night they shall not be shut; that men may bring to you the wealth of the nations, with their kings led in procession. For the nation or kingdom that will not not serve you; shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste. . . .Isaiah 60:10-12

[kuilong]

Bible doesn't teach European superiority it preaches Isreali superiority. Mostly just the old testament mind you. You also said the word tame, which leads me to believe that you realy haven't read that much.

So I'll help you out a little.

I never said it preached European superiority (hint: it was an example) and I know what it says. But thanks for the offer.

[Filiprish]

Kim, I think your husband is being irrational, not to mention racist. I don't think you're asking for much. You're making a huge compromise already. Though, if you don't go to church, I'm curious why you care to baptise your children, anyways. I understand it's hard to let go of religion. I was raised die-hard Catholic but I now reject Christianity, not religion completely, though. IMO, in a postmodern world, one shouldn't limit themselves to one religion. I was actually resentful for a while there for having been raised Catholic and trying to perfect for everyone else, not necessarily God. IMO, in this era, as parent, you really should just do your best to steer your kids in the right direction. Teach them about whom/what God is to you. I think that will go a very long way. Btw, you seem somewhat resentful about having been raised Catholic yourself. :wink:

[Mr.Lum]

Don't know about Chinese or Japanese. For Koreans I know it's...
1. Presbyterian
2. Catholic
3. Methodist



I don't know many Korean Christians but I know quite a few Quaker Koreans from going to the NE yearly meeting. There were like a hundred of them. They gave a presentation about Friends in Korea and this guy Seok Hon Ham (sp?) who wasa Quaker-Korean humanitarian in Korea for a long ass time. Also I heard that almost 50% of all Friends are either African or Latin American (as in Indians) and I wouldn't be suprised if most Christians were not European as well. I don't see how really how Christianity could be a white man's religion when the earliest Christians weren't white. The oldest monestary in the world was in fact built by Coptic Christians who are anything but white. If anything it's a "brown man's religion".

[Filiprish]

I don't see how really how Christianity could be a white man's religion when the earliest Christians weren't white. The oldest monestary in the world was in fact built by Coptic Christians who are anything but white. If anything it's a "brown man's religion".
Amen, brother Lum. Preach it! All major modern religion originate from Asia.

[YuheiCarreau]

I don't know many Korean Christians but I know quite a few Quaker Koreans from going to the NE yearly meeting. There were like a hundred of them. They gave a presentation about Friends in Korea and this guy Seok Hon Ham (sp?) who wasa Quaker-Korean humanitarian in Korea for a long ass time. Also I heard that almost 50% of all Friends are either African or Latin American (as in Indians) and I wouldn't be suprised if most Christians were not European as well. I don't see how really how Christianity could be a white man's religion when the earliest Christians weren't white. The oldest monestary in the world was in fact built by Coptic Christians who are anything but white. If anything it's a "brown man's religion".

Buddhism started out in India, yet it's a minority religion in south Asia. The majority of Buddhists are east Asian, and they have adapted it to their own cultures; so is Buddhism a 'brown man's religion' because it started in India, or is it a 'yellow man's religion'?

Same for Islam - the largest population Muslims, as I'm sure you know, is in Pakistan and southeast Asia, not in the Arab world. Who 'owns' Islam, then?

What I find weird is Black Christians who go around saying that Jesus was Black just because he's described as having a tan complexion and wavy hair. If he went around telling people he was the Jewish messiah, it seems fairly obvious that he'd be Jewish (plenty of Jews around with kinky / curly hair and tan skin)... I can understand why they might feel the need to reconcile their cultural identity with the Whitewashed version of Christianity commonly seen in the US and Europe, but it seems rather self-centered to cast Jesus as an African to correct the White portrayal of Jesus as a Nordic blond guy.

Then there's the handful of rather loony 'Black Muslim' organizations like the 5%ers or Farrakhan's bunch that take a religion created by Arabs and try to fit it into an American Black vs. White view of race relations...

[Mr.Lum]

What I find weird is Black Christians who go around saying that Jesus was Black just because he's described as having a tan complexion and wavy hair. If he went around telling people he was the Jewish messiah, it seems fairly obvious that he'd be Jewish (plenty of Jews around with kinky / curly hair and tan skin)... I can understand why they might feel the need to reconcile their cultural identity with the Whitewashed version of Christianity commonly seen in the US and Europe, but it seems rather self-centered to cast Jesus as an African to correct the White portrayal of Jesus as a Nordic blond guy.


Most churches ajust him to look like the followers. White people made him white, Ethiopians made him black, Middle EAstern churches have him looking Arab.

Then there's the handful of rather loony 'Black Muslim' organizations like the 5%ers or Farrakhan's bunch that take a religion created by Arabs and try to fit it into an American Black vs. White view of race relations...

Yes, and the only people that call them "muslim" is themselves. They teach that caucasians were created by an evil scientist named "Yakobe" or something (ie Jacob) which means that Muhammed was an abomination created by evil science. If you read throught their theology a lot of it makes no sense what so ever with acutall Islamic teachings at all.

[kitty]

What I find weird is Black Christians who go around saying that Jesus was Black just because he's described as having a tan complexion and wavy hair. If he went around telling people he was the Jewish messiah, it seems fairly obvious that he'd be Jewish (plenty of Jews around with kinky / curly hair and tan skin)... I can understand why they might feel the need to reconcile their cultural identity with the Whitewashed version of Christianity commonly seen in the US and Europe, but it seems rather self-centered to cast Jesus as an African to correct the White portrayal of Jesus as a Nordic blond guy.


There was a thread on this a looong time ago. I think part of this reasoning is also because the original Jews were Ethiopian. I don't think people argue that he was like a super dark Sambo type person, but mostly they are challenging the idea that Jesus was blonde-haired and blue-eyed. I think most argue that he was sort of a light-skinned brother.

The Jews of today aren't really the Jews of yesteryear, I think they're mostly European Jews. And I hardly think it's a self-centered proposal -- history doesn't support the Nordic blonde guy. History does support a brown-skinned African man being Jesus.

[YuheiCarreau]

There was a thread on this a looong time ago. I think part of this reasoning is also because the original Jews were Ethiopian. I don't think people argue that he was like a super dark Sambo type person, but mostly they are challenging the idea that Jesus was blonde-haired and blue-eyed. I think most argue that he was sort of a light-skinned brother.

The Jews of today aren't really the Jews of yesteryear, I think they're mostly European Jews. And I hardly think it's a self-centered proposal -- history doesn't support the Nordic blonde guy. History does support a brown-skinned African man being Jesus.

What 'history' supports the idea that the Jews originated in Africa (I assume you're not referring to the theory that human life began in Africa)? Yes there are light-skinned Jews that are the product of intermarriage with Europeans, but that doesn't mean that if you follow their family tree going backwards you'll end up in Africa. To the best of my knowledge Jews are a Semitic people like the Arabs, and it is the Ethiopian Jews who broke off from the main group of Jews, not the other way around.

I think the idea that Jesus resembled a modern-day African is a theory that has one or two points in its favor, but it seems far more likely that he was a Jew. Of course, it was all 2,000 years ago, and it's not like we have a birth certificate or anything, so I guess it's one of those mysteries that will never be solved...

My main criticism of those Black Christians is that they are making the exact same mistake as their White counterparts. I just find it silly that a central argument of the "Jesus was a Black man" theory is that European Christians remade Jesus in their own image, and yet these people display the same hubris. Same as in Asia, where there are millions and millions of Buddha statues that show a Chinese or Japanese man with curly hair. Why is it that people can accept a foreign religion, but not a foreign savior?

[Filiprish]

Why is it that people can accept a foreign religion, but not a foreign savior?
Damn good question. Fear of inferiority, I'd say.

[kuilong]

There was a thread on this a looong time ago. I think part of this reasoning is also because the original Jews were Ethiopian. I don't think people argue that he was like a super dark Sambo type person, but mostly they are challenging the idea that Jesus was blonde-haired and blue-eyed. I think most argue that he was sort of a light-skinned brother.

The Jews of today aren't really the Jews of yesteryear, I think they're mostly European Jews. And I hardly think it's a self-centered proposal -- history doesn't support the Nordic blonde guy. History does support a brown-skinned African man being Jesus.

Actually, I think the Semitic population of Ethiopia immigrated from the Middle East, not the other way around. And you probably get the impression that Jews are white from the fact that most of the Jews in the US are Askhenazim. In Israel, for instance, most of them are Mizr??îm, and look very Middle-Eastern. Jesus probably had the same complexion as Yasser Arafat.

ye110man posted some pictures some time ago of Asian portrayals of Jesus and Mary. Some Christians support culture-specific portrayals of Jesus, because it enforces the idea that he was a "universal" savior. It's the same way Chinese portrayals of Buddha usually look Chinese.

[Yeahman]

History does support a brown-skinned African man being Jesus.
Jesus wasn't African!
Jesus was a Middle-Eastern Jew.
Ethiopian Jewish tradition says that they are descended from Jews who migrated to Ethiopia from Isreal. Not the other way around.

[Mr.Lum]

Modern science tells us that w/e the JEws say about migrating to Ethiopia from "Israel", they still got to Israel by way of Africa. They're self hating Africans. LOLOL. Who cares what he looked like? That's superficial and is just justification for idolry of ones own ethnic group. Don't focus on the aesthetics, forcus on the message!

[Yeahman]

Modern science tells us that w/e the JEws say about migrating to Ethiopia from "Israel", they still got to Israel by way of Africa. They're self hating Africans.
And the Asians got to Asia by way of Africa. And the Europeans.
Jesus wasn't a blonde haired, blue eyed white man but many people go too far in trying to create a new Jesus that they make the claim that he was black or was a Buddhist. Does it matter? No. Just like it doesn't matter if Albert Einstein was a white Jew or a black Muslim. But you gotta be a little weird in the head to believe the later.

[kitty]

ye110man posted some pictures some time ago of Asian portrayals of Jesus and Mary. Some Christians support culture-specific portrayals of Jesus, because it enforces the idea that he was a "universal" savior. It's the same way Chinese portrayals of Buddha usually look Chinese.

^-- I feel that. Why can't koreans worship a Korean jesus? Why does that bother everyone else? If Jesus is God's son, shouldn't he be able to transcend race?

and as far as what the original jews were, i was responding mainly in direct response to the idea that jews were 'european-looking' or white. if jews migrated from the middle east, then fine, I apologize for saying the wrong thing.

the POINT is that they weren't white, and when people say that jesus was black, they don't mean he was ethiopian or extremely dark-skinned, or 'negroid' (to use a really offensive anthropological term), but that he would be considered a black man (or brown man) by today's racial terms. I don't think they're trying to 'claim' Jesus (re: Yuhei's comment on hubris), but trying to re-redefine him in a more historical light, especially given how stringent the depiction of Jesus' ethnicity has been in the past, and how Christianity has been used to oppress people of colour for generations through the depiction of Jesus as a California sufer. How is that self-interest or hubris? not all people who put forth that argument are trying to paint themselves as 'god's people'. remember race did not exist the way we know it, back then.

And just a question: is there evidence supporting the idea that the people in the middle east now looked exactly the way they did 2000 years ago? I don't know, so I'm asking. Anyways, I also stumbled across this piccie posted in some random forum I googled. It's supposed to be some sort of re-creation of Middle Eastern jews from Jesus' time, but I don't have any references to go with it, so I don't know how trustworthy this is.

http://www.terra.com.br/noticias/galeria/popular_melhores/010327_real_jesus.jpg

[yoMAMA]

^-- I feel that. Why can't koreans worship a Korean jesus? Why does that bother everyone else? If Jesus is God's son, shouldn't he be able to transcend race?

and as far as what the original jews were, i was responding mainly in direct response to the idea that jews were 'european-looking' or white. if jews migrated from the middle east, then fine, I apologize for saying the wrong thing.

the POINT is that they weren't white, and when people say that jesus was black, they don't mean he was ethiopian or extremely dark-skinned, or 'negroid' (to use a really offensive anthropological term), but that he would be considered a black man (or brown man) by today's racial terms. I don't think they're trying to 'claim' Jesus (re: Yuhei's comment on hubris), but trying to re-redefine him in a more historical light, especially given how stringent the depiction of Jesus' ethnicity has been in the past, and how Christianity has been used to oppress people of colour for generations through the depiction of Jesus as a California sufer. How is that self-interest or hubris? not all people who put forth that argument are trying to paint themselves as 'god's people'. remember race did not exist the way we know it, back then.

And just a question: is there evidence supporting the idea that the people in the middle east now looked exactly the way they did 2000 years ago? I don't know, so I'm asking. Anyways, I also stumbled across this piccie posted in some random forum I googled. It's supposed to be some sort of re-creation of Middle Eastern jews from Jesus' time, but I don't have any references to go with it, so I don't know how trustworthy this is.

http://www.terra.com.br/noticias/galeria/popular_melhores/010327_real_jesus.jpg

is that Saddam?

:biggrin:

[Yeahman]

^-- I feel that. Why can't koreans worship a Korean jesus? Why does that bother everyone else? If Jesus is God's son, shouldn't he be able to transcend race?
There is a difference between artistic renditions and historical accuracy. I am making a prayer card for my church using a Korean Mary and Jesus. But not because I believe that they were Korean.

I have no problems with Jesus being portrayed as black. But there really are people out there who believe that the historical Jesus was black.

[YuheiCarreau]

^-- I feel that. Why can't koreans worship a Korean jesus? Why does that bother everyone else? If Jesus is God's son, shouldn't he be able to transcend race?

Well, I don't have a real deep problem with it, as I'm not very religious. But I do think that even a benign portrayal of Jesus as non-Jewish is rather disrespectful of the origins of the religion; Jesus said he was the Jewish savior, the son of the Jewish god. Not the Roman gods, not the Japanese gods, not anyone's god but the Jews'. And the Christian religion is built on a foundation laid by the tribal religion of the Jews. I think that the people who recast Jesus as an African, Korean, or whatever are losing sight of the roots of the religion, and if you're not in touch with that you're probably not in touch with the core ethos of it either.

To turn your question around a bit, why can't someone make a movie where a White man plays Martin Luther King? Because King was a Black man, and not just any Black man, a man who contributed greatly to the cultural identity and ideals of other Black people. Could you have a White actor deliver the line, "I have a dream..." with all the conviction and pride of the real King? Maybe. But would it mean the same thing coming from a White man's mouth as opposed to a Black man? Wouldn't it take those very powerful words out of their original context, and make them just another monologue?

Jesus spoke very powerfully to all people about a way of life based on the Jewish faith. The Christian church welcomes all people, unlike a tribal religion like Judaism or Shinto, but that does not mean that the ideas that formed the Christian faith are drawn equally from all the cultures of the world. Monotheistic faith was a rare thing in Jesus' time, and I think it's important that Christians understand that it was through the Jewish faith, the Jewish people, that Christ introduced that concept to the rest of the world.

Also, I've met plenty of ignorant Christians who say stuff like "the Jews killed Jesus!"... So that's another reason why Christians should be reminded of the relationship between Jesus and Judaism.

and as far as what the original jews were, i was responding mainly in direct response to the idea that jews were 'european-looking' or white. if jews migrated from the middle east, then fine, I apologize for saying the wrong thing.

the POINT is that they weren't white, and when people say that jesus was black, they don't mean he was ethiopian or extremely dark-skinned, or 'negroid' (to use a really offensive anthropological term), but that he would be considered a black man (or brown man) by today's racial terms. I don't think they're trying to 'claim' Jesus (re: Yuhei's comment on hubris), but trying to re-redefine him in a more historical light, especially given how stringent the depiction of Jesus' ethnicity has been in the past, and how Christianity has been used to oppress people of colour for generations through the depiction of Jesus as a California sufer. How is that self-interest or hubris? not all people who put forth that argument are trying to paint themselves as 'god's people'. remember race did not exist the way we know it, back then.

I've heard the milder side of the argument which you present. But I have also heard Black people saying, in no uncertain terms, that Jesus was a dark-skinned African / Negroid / "Brother" / etc. And seen plenty of portraits and other portrayals of Jesus that show him as a Black man with an afro. Those are the people I was talking about.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

My personal opinion is that Catholicism has done a somewhat better job than other religions of learning how to spread its message, without forcing on the converted a huge amount of the specific cultural practices (including worship practices which developed from the culture rather than from religious doctrine) belonging to the people doing the spreading of the religion. Protestant sects, less so (http://www.hakkaministries.org/hakkas/gospelbarriers.htm).

In simpler words, I feel in general Christianity in practice isn't as much of a White Man's religion as, say, Islam is an Arab Man's religion (where we see converts having to study Arabic and many religious students sent to the Middle East to study end up coming back and encouraging their countrymen to take up Arab traditions in the name of Islam, when in fact many of those traditions they're trying to force on everyone have no basis in the Quran).

[kitty]

There is a difference between artistic renditions and historical accuracy. I am making a prayer card for my church using a Korean Mary and Jesus. But not because I believe that they were Korean.

I have no problems with Jesus being portrayed as black. But there really are people out there who believe that the historical Jesus was black.

well, that's what i mean though. all representations of jesus are historically inaccurate, but jesus is also no longer 'just a man', but an iconic saviour for people of different ethnicities. if he is a symbol or icon, could he not be altered to best fit those who are worshipping him? I think Koreans should worship Korean depictions of Jesus, and blacks should worship a black depiction of Jesus.

Otherwise, the racial implications of having all these coloured communities worshipping a white saviour haven't proven to be very beneficial to these communities.

And historically, Jesus would count... in today's society... as black. I think y'all are being tripped up by the word black -- it doesn't mean that he was particularly dark-skinned or 'negroid', but irregardless, in today's society, because of the unspoken one-drop rule, if jesus showed up as an unknown in modern times, he would be considered a black man.

Martin Luther King as a white man

Well, the difference would be that MLK isn't being paraded around as anyone's spiritual saviour, and people aren't associating ethnic similarity to him as somehow blessed or special people. Regardless of the great things MLK did, he's still considered human. Jesus transcended that status when he became depicted as the Son of God and Saviour of Man.


I've heard the milder side of the argument which you present. But I have also heard Black people saying, in no uncertain terms, that Jesus was a dark-skinned African / Negroid / "Brother" / etc. And seen plenty of portraits and other portrayals of Jesus that show him as a Black man with an afro. Those are the people I was talking about.

Well, that I would liken more to Koreans creating a depiction of a Korean Jesus. Changing iconography to better suit one's own community -- if I were religious, I wouldn't want to worship a white Jesus either.

[kuilong]

And historically, Jesus would count... in today's society... as black. I think y'all are being tripped up by the word black -- it doesn't mean that he was particularly dark-skinned or 'negroid', but irregardless, in today's society, because of the unspoken one-drop rule, if jesus showed up as an unknown in modern times, he would be considered a black man.

I don't know; I don't think we classify people as "black" solely based on their skin color. For instance, most Indian-Americans aren't considered "black", though they might be darker than Jesus. And we don't regard most Israelis or Arabs as "black" (over 50% of Israel's Jewish population is "Middle Eastern", in that they've been in the Middle East since time immemorial and not immigrated more recently from Europe or the US).

And I've seen that reconstruction of what Jesus looked like in National Geographic, I think.

[Yeahman]

And historically, Jesus would count... in today's society... as black. I think y'all are being tripped up by the word black -- it doesn't mean that he was particularly dark-skinned or 'negroid', but irregardless, in today's society, because of the unspoken one-drop rule, if jesus showed up as an unknown in modern times, he would be considered a black man.
Would you consider Arabs, black?

Well, the difference would be that MLK isn't being paraded around as anyone's spiritual saviour, and people aren't associating ethnic similarity to him as somehow blessed or special people. Regardless of the great things MLK did, he's still considered human. Jesus transcended that status when he became depicted as the Son of God and Saviour of Man.
Jesus is considered human too. Culturally-influenced depictions of Jesus aren't in any way attempts at historical accuracy though.
I wouldn't have problems with a white MLK so long as it is clear that it's not trying to say that he was really white but only to reflect that MLK's message applied to all men white or black and that a white man may see his own personal hero in MLK.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Why is it that people can accept a foreign religion, but not a foreign savior?

Haha Well I guess in my case (or in the case of other Asian Christians) this type of issue never really presented itself as a problem cause like, we aren't white or Jewish or Arab or African, and there's pretty much no way that Jesus was like...a Chinese guy or some type of Asian man, although I wouldn't be surprised if there were some Chinese people trying to spread stories about Jesus having visited China as a Chinese man centuries prior to the birth of Christ as we know it today. I think my dad actually told me about someone like that, although I'm not quite sure. I'm not itching to open up the Christian Science Monitor one day and read some article by an Asian dude proclaiming that Jesus had monolids :biggrin:

[Mr.Lum]

Would you consider Arabs, black?



Be careful, there are Arabs, mostly from southern Algeria, Morocco, West Sahara and especially Sudan that are some of the blackest people on earth in terms of features...Hassan al-Turabi is one of the founders/financiers of Al Qaeda, a Sudanese Arab expresident. He looks like any random black dude. But compare w/ Hafiz al-Asad, the former Syrian president he looked like a white dude. And then you've got Nasser and Osama Bin Laden who look more Arab in the typical/stereotypical sense...at any rate, the US Census counts all Arab Americans as "white". Mostly because most Arab Americans are Christian Lebanese or Syrian rather than being from other Arab state where the Muslim/nonEuropean looking population is far greater, for example Egypt or Libya or Morocco.

[rotrab]

Christianity is white. It doesn't matter how it started. Everything about it is white. It is white-centered.

[kimpossible]

No offense, but it sounds like you know littl