Why Lucy?

[Shuriken]

Of all the ink spilt over Lucy Liu on this and other Asian American sites, one issue has never been adequately addressed: Why is she the one Asian American actor — rather than someone else — who has made such a startling breakthrough? Out of all the cast members of Ally McBeal, why was it L2 who leapt to the big screen — beating out the show's star, Callista Flockhart?

L2 now stands poised to become the first real Asian American movie star in Hollywood since Anna May Wong in the 1930s and '40s. (Bruce Lee, an American by birth but not by acculturation, died before his first and only Hollywood vehicle, 1973's Enter the Dragon, was released.) Not since AMW has an Asian American performer received solo, above-the-title billing in more than one major Hollywood production. Now with her second co-starring, above-the-title role — in Ballistic: Ecks vs. Sever — due out today. I have to wonder why, of all the Asian American actors out there, it was Lucy Liu who was able to capture the public's fancy.

After the surprise success of The Last Emperor, Joan Chen's career never lived up to the promise of such an auspicious showcase. Although Tia Carrere has attained something of a cult following and starred in a number of straight-to-video movies, she never played any major big-screen lead roles. The alumni of The Joy Luck Club also failed to significantly advance their big-screen careers, and most have gone on to playing supporting roles on TV. (And for the moment, let's not even get into Hollywood's loathsome lack of respect for Asian American men.) All of these actresses are — in my humble opinion — more attractive and have shown more emotional depth than Lucy Liu. But it is Lucy who is now working constantly in prominent movie roles.

I'm wondering why. Maybe the character of Ling Woo on Ally McBeal was just so stunning in her brashness that audiences really latched onto her. I remember L2 from her days as the "model-minority," know-it-all classmate on the old sitcom Pearl and her various appearances on episodic television, and she usually left me unimpressed. I would never have expected her to become an Asian star of such magnitude.

I suppose that the next step is for Lucy to be offered that plumb, non-race-specific lead role that Julia Roberts or Nicole Kidman turns down. Maybe then, Asian American representation in Hollywood will have turned a corner. I'm just surprised that — after all those other Asian American actresses that have come before her — Lucy Liu stands the best chance of doing it.

[achtungbaby]

I wouldn't consider myself L2's biggest fan or hater. I'm glad she's gotten to where she has as an Asian American, though there have certainly been better, more attractive ones before her.

Who knows? Who can understand the mainstream?

[kimpossible]

For the amount of hokey Hollywood crap thrown at Asian women I think she does a pretty good job avoiding the classic victim roles. She's been getting pretty alpha bitch parts if not totally able to avoid being the Asian Girlfriend of White Guy.

But that's about as much as my 'support' goes. I wouldn't want to coronate her as role model for Asian America but I imagine she doesn't want the title either.

[SunWuKong]

i think we should give lucy our support. i think her career is going to make way for other asian american leads (perhaps not asian american male leads, but asian american nonetheless).

i know it was mainly because of the producers being dicks that All American Girl got cancelled (at least according to Margaret Cho), but i know that the Asian American community gave her alot of shit for that show. can you imagine the difference that show would have made if it didn't get cancelled so soon or even became popular? i fully believe that lucy got her break onto the big-screen due at least partly to a market for yellow fever, but hey, even black actors had to play stereotypical characters in the beginning.

[deez nuts]

I give luv to a fellow stuy grad!

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 20 2002, 03:38 PM
i think we should give lucy our support. i think her career is going to make way for other asian american leads (perhaps not asian american male leads, but asian american nonetheless).

i know it was mainly because of the producers being dicks that All American Girl got cancelled (at least according to Margaret Cho), but i know that the Asian American community gave her alot of shit for that show. can you imagine the difference that show would have made if it didn't get cancelled so soon or even became popular? i fully believe that lucy got her break onto the big-screen due at least partly to a market for yellow fever, but hey, even black actors had to play stereotypical characters in the beginning.
I'm not convinced that she's going to pave any way for any other AA woman. At least not in the type of roles that break away from hyper sexualized Asian females.

I'm all for you trying to convince me though. Maybe there's something I didn't think of.

And if you don't think the advancement is asynchronous between Asian females and males in mainstream cinema - how does that address the issues AA actors face now? If there are Asian female leads w/o Asian male leads - you fill in the blank.

((Whoah, Mr. HH is totally tripping out on the dancing sheep that shows up on his Real Player right now))

[angel nympho]

Maybe she's just talented and her sucess has nothing to do with her ethnicity.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 20 2002, 11:38 PM
i know it was mainly because of the producers being dicks that All American Girl got cancelled (at least according to Margaret Cho), but i know that the Asian American community gave her alot of shit for that show.
That, and besides, the show was kinda crappy. The only people who thought it was funny were basically 2nd Generation Asian-Americans. A lot of people jsut didn't get it.

[SunWuKong]

i guess all i'm saying is that as long as we're not talking about Long Duk Dong level of stereotyping, then i think it's good. basically there's just not even enough asian faces on the big or small screen. we've got to start out somewhere. and if i was a working asian actor, i'd be more than happy to play even Long Duk Dong if it gets me exposure and more importantly $$$ for rent.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by Morientes@Sep 22 2002, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 21 2002, 01:29 AM
i'd be more than happy to play even Long Duk Dong if it gets me exposure and more importantly $$$ for rent.
yeah man, i think that alot of the haters out there are too quick to judge and forget that actors are just working people who need to make a living. working in the acting field is very difficult even for white actors so just imagine what it would be like for ethnic actors. of course, in an ideal world one would like to see all the -ve stereotypes dissipated but we all know this ain't gonna happen overnight. still it don't mean we have to accept all the roles -give it some time and aa actors will start getting better roles. in the meantime just don't hate on asian actors just because of the roles they played.
Well said.

[Shuriken]

It's nice to see some feedback to my original post. A few thoughts:

•I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm dissing Lucy Liu. I'm glad that she's out there. I'm glad she's getting the work. Heck, I even liked her as Ling on Ally McBeal, when so many others were dismissing her character as a "dragon lady." As long as she doesn't agree to take some egregiously foolish role in some yellow-peril pot boiler or lotus-blossom propaganda, I'll support whatever she does.

I'm just surprised that L2 was able to pull off what so many other Asian American actresses weren't. In particular, I would have thought that if any Asian actress could have taken Hollywood by storm, it would have been Joan Chen: she's drop-dead gorgeous and has this incredibly sexy voice. These are usually the qualities that Hollywood looks for in a leading lady. But after The Last Emperor, her careeer seemed to go nowhere beyond her recurring role in the cult TV series Twin Peaks. Lucy Liu's looks are nothing to sneeze at, but she's not in Joan Chen territory, and her high-pitched voice is sometimes grating on the ears. I guess that Hollywood just couldn't get past their perception of Joan Chen as some sort of lotus blossom (a disturbingly disproportionate number of her roles are either prostitutes or ex-prostitutes), and maybe that's why her career never really took off.

•As I have been trying to say on many other posts, the entertainment industry is not color-blind. I would like to think that L2 got where she is primarily because of her talent, but I can't believe that her race has nothing to do with it. Perhaps the fact that the character of Ling was so different from most other portrayals of Asian women is what drew audiences to her — that's what I'd like to think, anyway.

•I agree that the brunt of media criticism should be direceted towards the non-Asian creators who perpetuate Asian stereotypes, rather than towards the hapless Asian actors who take these parts because they're virtually the work they can get. But it seems to me that — somewhere — there ought to be a limit. When an Asian actor appears in a blatant piece of anti-Asian propaganda like Rising Sun, a film premised on the idea that Asians are taking over the U.S. by having white people murdered, shouldn't someone stand up and tell them that they shouldn't take roles in a movie like that?

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Sep 24 2002, 05:59 PM
•I agree that the brunt of media criticism should be direceted towards the non-Asian creators who perpetuate Asian stereotypes, rather than towards the hapless Asian actors who take these parts because they're virtually the work they can get. But it seems to me that — somewhere — there ought to be a limit. When an Asian actor appears in a blatant piece of anti-Asian propaganda like Rising Sun, a film premised on the idea that Asians are taking over the U.S. by having white people murdered, shouldn't someone stand up and tell them that they shouldn't take roles in a movie like that?
If no black people took the roles as white-hating criminals, would that change anything? What if white people never took roles as corrupt politicials. It's not about the stereotypes in the movie, it's about the theme of the movie itself and the "bigger picture." Call me insensitive, but I hardly think that a twisted, weird movie means that the characters in it are real.

[SunWuKong]

I actually like Ally McBeal's Ling alot... aside from the obvious inaccurate assumption that a Chinese American would use her Chinese name romanized when probably 95% of all Chinese Americans have English names. True, there is a little bit of the "Dragon Lady" in Ling (and in honesty I enjoy seeing Dragon Ladies because they're usually strong female characters, the same can't be said of Lotus Blossoms which perpetuates the view that Asian women are weak), but for the most part I don't think that her character was exoticised as it surely would have been in a show where the locale was in Asia or better yet, Chinatown. So I actually like the character alot.

And I don't know if I can answer your question comparing Joan Chen and Lucy Liu. I actually haven't seen much of Joan Chen's work so I can't really comment on it. How do you compare the success of Twin Peaks and the success of Ally McBeal? I think the success of Ally McBeal has everything to do with Lucy's success (which is not to say that she's not talented to begin with, but we all know that it takes more than talent to succeed in Hollywood).



<!--EDIT|SunWuKung|Sep 24 2002, 02:05 PM-->

[deez nuts]

Success of Joan Chen and Lucy Liu. Couldn't Joan Chen's lack of popularity be due to timing when compared to Lucy Liu? I don't think think Asian women in general was as popular in the media back then during the pinnacle of Joan Chen's career as opposed to the popularity of Asian women nowadays when applied to Lucy Liu. Maybe Lucy just came around at the right time?

[SunWuKong]

speaking of joan chen, has anyone seen Xiu Xiu The Sent-Down Girl?

[ronin]

I've never been a Lucy fan, but I'd like to see Michelle Yeoh do another movie. She did a good job in Tomorrow Never Dies, but CTHD is one of my favs.

I liked Kim Yun-jin in Shiri, but I haven't seen her in anything else yet.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by ronin@Sep 24 2002, 10:46 PM
I've never been a Lucy fan, but I'd like to see Michelle Yeoh do another movie. She did a good job in Tomorrow Never Dies, but CTHD is one of my favs.
check out The Touch. i haven't seen it but supposedly it's good. not sure though. she also has a slew of HK movies under her belt.



<!--EDIT|SunWuKung|Sep 24 2002, 11:10 PM-->

[DaBestSpooner]

she's no maggie cheung, thats for sure, still havent gotten a chance to rent irma vep yet.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by DaBestSpooner@Sep 25 2002, 11:20 AM
she's no maggie cheung, thats for sure, still havent gotten a chance to rent irma vep yet.
Irma Vep was ok. it was basically a french film making fun of the french film industry. check out Comrades, Almost A Love Story in case you haven't watched it. (or Tian Mi Mi - the Mandarin title, which also happens to be the title of a Teresa Teng song).

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 25 2002, 08:34 AM
Originally posted by DaBestSpooner@Sep 25 2002, 11:20 AM
she's no maggie cheung, thats for sure, still havent gotten a chance to rent irma vep yet.
Irma Vep was ok. it was basically a french film making fun of the french film industry. check out Comrades, Almost A Love Story in case you haven't watched it. (or Tian Mi Mi - the Mandarin title, which also happens to be the title of a Teresa Teng song).
Irma Vep was weird. The only reason I rented it was to see Maggie Cheung in a vinyl catsuit. It was cool to see her dressed down too, little or no makeup.

[Shuriken]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 24 2002, 06:14 PM
If no black people took the roles as white-hating criminals, would that change anything? &nbsp;What if white people never took roles as corrupt politicials. &nbsp;It's not about the stereotypes in the movie, it's about the theme of the movie itself and the "bigger picture." &nbsp;Call me insensitive, but I hardly think that a twisted, weird movie means that the characters in it are real.
Are there really that many movies with blacks as "white-hating criminals"?

Observations about racial minorities in the media do not apply to whites. There are plenty of diverse images of white people in the media. If you don't like the way that a white character is being portrayed in a given work, there are numerous other portrayals of whites in the media to choose from. For example, if you didn't like Archie Bunker in the 1970s, you could just change the channel: virtually every other TV show at that time had a likeable white main character, and the same largely holds true today. By contrast, if you don't like the way a particular TV show today portrays Asian characters, what American TV show would you turn to in order to find a counterbalancing image?

In an alternate universe, if virtually every face on TV belonged to a person of color, and the only white characters we ever saw were villainous Nazis or Ku Klux Klansmen, I'll bet you that white viewers would — understandably — be up in arms over that kind of a situation.

The "bigger picture" is the history of Asian representation in the U.S. media and its impact on how real-life Asian people are viewed and treated in society. That is the context by which to measure Asian portrayals. This is why I disagree with people who say, for example, that a movie like Rising Sun is acceptable because some of its Asian supporting characters are "good." Rising Sun was pimping the same kind of anti-Asian paranoia that helped to lead to the internment camps in the 1940s. Hollywood — for good reason — would never make a film portraying Jewish people in the way that Rising Sun portrayed Asians because of the legacy of the Holocaust. In that hypothetical situation, the Jewish American community would never be placated by a few "good" Jewish supporting characters.

Now, I am willing to cut a potentially anti-Asian film a lot of slack if its lead character is Asian. Both The Replacement Killers and Romeo Must Die had their problematic aspects, but in my mind, they were sufficiently counterbalanced by lead Asian characters with whom the audience could sympathize and identify. Lead Asian characters can do this, but in my opionion, supporting Asian characters have a harder time counterbalancing negative stereotypes because the story isn't seen through their eyes.

[angel nympho]

Are there really that many movies with blacks as "white-hating criminals"? &nbsp;
Uhhh, YEAH!!! How many movies have you seen where the blacks were criminals, degenerates, or racists?? a LOT, man.

In an alternate universe, if virtually every face on TV belonged to a person of color, and the only white characters we ever saw were villainous Nazis or Ku Klux Klansmen, I'll bet you that white viewers would — understandably — be up in arms over that kind of a situation. &nbsp;
I agree with you, but thankfully, EVERY colored face on TV isn't villainous.

The "bigger picture" is the history of Asian representation in the U.S. media and its impact on how real-life Asian people are viewed and treated in society. &nbsp;That is the context by which to measure Asian portrayals. &nbsp;This is why I disagree with people who say, for example, that a movie like Rising Sun is acceptable because some of its Asian supporting characters are "good." &nbsp;Rising Sun was pimping the same kind of anti-Asian paranoia that helped to lead to the internment camps in the 1940s.
What the heck was this movie about anyway? When was it made? I mean, as far as I knew, it was just some movie about some twisted Asian guy killing white people. *Shrug* There's plenty of movies about twisted Asian murderer guys in Asia, why is it suddenly so horrible if there's one here? Either way, I can't really comment much on this cuz I've never seen or heard much of this movie. Besides, weren't you guys all complaining that Asians get portrayed as nerds, which leads to white people picking on you thinking you're passive? And by "bigger picture," I mean the theme and idea the movie presents as a whole, not the characters in it. In a movie like... *scratches head* a time to kill, at the end of it, do we really care that white people were portrayed as racist hick fucks, or do we care that it had a happy ending and wow, justice can really be served.

Hollywood — for good reason — would never make a film portraying Jewish people in the way that Rising Sun portrayed Asians because of the legacy of the Holocaust. &nbsp;In that hypothetical situation, the Jewish American community would never be placated by a few "good" Jewish supporting characters. &nbsp;
Why wouldn't Hollywood do that? WE have nothing to apologize to the Jewish people for... I'm no German nazi. Of course, they wouldn't make a movie that made Jews out to be the instigators of the Halocaust. That would be totally offensive because it's an account of an actual historical event. But I don't see any reason why a movie that had a Jewish guy murdering people wouldn't be made. Probably because that's a rather boring storyline. There really wasn't some historical event that had Asians going on a rampage killing white people or anything that Hollywood would be worried about misrepresenting... But again, I could be totally off because I've never seen Rising Sun.

Don't get all mad. I'm just trying to say that I like watching Asian people kicking ass on the big screen. Even if they ARE the bad guy.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Posted on Sep 25 2002, 08:51 PM

I mean, as far as I knew, it was just some movie about some twisted Asian guy killing white people. *Shrug* There's plenty of movies about twisted Asian murderer guys in Asia, why is it suddenly so horrible if there's one here?

because there is a lack of positive asian portrayal in america. for every movie in asia with asian murderers in it, there is probably a hundred movie with positive asian characters. heck, the asian murderer movies themselves would have positive asian leads.


Originally posted by angel nympho@Posted on Sep 25 2002, 08:51 PM

In a movie like... *scratches head* a time to kill, at the end of it, do we really care that white people were portrayed as racist hick fucks, or do we care that it had a happy ending and wow, justice can really be served.

no we don't care that they're hicks because that's pretty irrelevant given the fact that there are thousands of other movies where white people are not racist hicks.


Originally posted by angel nympho@Posted on Sep 25 2002, 08:51 PM

But I don't see any reason why a movie that had a Jewish guy murdering people wouldn't be made.

probably because hollywood is owned by jewish people! hah! i'm just kidding i'm not sure why that is. :)



<!--EDIT|SunWuKung|Sep 25 2002, 09:21 PM-->

[Shuriken]

SWK, thanks for taking up my side of the debate. Good job.


Angel, if you don't notice the paucity of Asian characters in the American media — especially lead Asian American characters — I don't know what to say. You keep suggesting that negative Asian stereotypes in American media are counterbalanced by positive portrayals of Asians in Asian-national media. But relatively few Americans regularly consume movies and TV shows from Asian countries. Images in these products don't have the same impact on American audiences that Hollywood's products do. With all due respect, what you say strikes me as a rather unreasonable argument.

What would you say to a fellow American who is critical of Rising Sun's portrayal of the Japanese? Would you tell them to hop on a plane, fly to Japan, and see a Japanese movie that portrays whites as predators of Japanese society (if such a movie were to exist, it's unlikely that it would be distributed in the U.S.)? How many Americans would be able to do this?

MANAA has an article about Asian stereotypes on its Web site. If you check it out, maybe we'll find common ground, and our discussion on this topic will be more fruitful. The URL is:


http://www.manaa.org/a_stereotypes.html