pressure to look good

[kasia]

no discussion of hair or make-up in the men's forums. what's up? or is ignorance bliss?

[johnny]

when will you learn not all men are created equal

[kasia]

Originally posted by johnny@Sep 10 2002, 11:35 PM
when will you learn not all men are created equal
we're not talking about men here. we're *women*.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kasia@Sep 10 2002, 04:31 PM
no discussion of hair or make-up in the men's forums. what's up? or is ignorance bliss?
i don't use make-up and i hardly have any hair.

[kasia]

but seriously, doesn't anyone see anything fundamentally wrong with this? what is one reason that can justify why we spend so much more time on our appearance than men?

and if your reason is, "because it makes *me* feel good"--why don't men spend an equal amount of time make themselves feel good?

honestly, i think that justification is no different than a slave saying that he continues doing what he is do--and doesn't question it in the least bit--because he takes in his work...

[Arex]

I see no reasonable justification for the disparity. I think most women spend altogether waaaay too much time making them selves up, doing their hair and what not. Unfortunately, it's completely self perpetuating. Women have been conditioned to spend gobs of time on their appearance, and guys have been conditioned to be attracted to those girls. It's the same thing with high heeled shoes and all that jazz. You can't point the finger at males and blame them as the oppressors because we're not actively doing anything to perpetuate this (ultimately) senseless behavior in women (unlike slavery and slave owners). If all the girls decided today to never put on lipstick again, us men would probably live. But how likely is that to happen? Not very...

Then again, perhaps this is the price women pay for living in a society where it's upon the males to approach the females. Women make them selves up all pretty and passively wait for male suitors to approach. If they want to attract the "best" or widest variety of males, they've got to do something, anything to make themselves stand out...?


Alex

[kasia]

Originally posted by Arex@Sep 13 2002, 06:41 AM
guys have been conditioned to be attracted to those girls.  

we're not actively doing anything to perpetuate this (ultimately) senseless behavior in women (unlike slavery and slave owners).
i see it as a kind of passive coercion.

anyhow, arex, when was the last time you just a judged a girl more by her appearance than by her personality? i think you are an exception.



<!--EDIT|kasia|Sep 13 2002, 06:54 AM-->

[Arex]

Originally posted by kasia@Sep 12 2002, 11:51 PM
i see it as a kind of passive coercion.
But other women are just as responsible for that "coercion." If the girls around you didn't do it, you wouldn't do it either. Of course, you can say that if the guys didn't expect it or appreciate it, then the women wouldn't do it in the first place. But if a boy grows up and all he sees are girls and then women who behave in a certain way, it's inevitable that he's going to be attracted to women who behave in that way. I think coercion, passive or otherwise, is waaaaay to strong a word for a guy simply being attracted to what he's been surrounded with his entire life. Ultimately, since women are the only ones who actively perpetuate the disparate behavior, women are the only ones who can actively put an end to it and break the cycle. That is, unless you think it's appropriate that men demand that their significant others not wear make up or spend time doing their hair, etc. And let me say this, when I had girlfriends, I told them all the time they didn't have to put on make up and spend all sorts of time on their hair. Did they listen? Of course not!

Originally posted by kasia@Sep 12 2002, 11:51 PM
anyhow, arex, when was the last time you just a judged a girl more by her appearance than by her personality? &nbsp;i think you are an exception.
While I try my best to place personality first and physical appearance second, physical attraction is still absolutely necessary in a relationship. But it's one thing to be superficial (or unsuperficial, as the case may be). It's quite another to acknowledge that something is inequitable and completely pointless. As I stated above, I've done my part to try to break the cycle. Of course, the girls never listened, which is why I often feel women often do what they do as much for the guys as for (competition with) other women.


Alex



<!--EDIT|Arex|Sep 13 2002, 12:20 AM-->

[kasia]

i see your point, arex...

i think my feelings have been mostly--i'm afraid that if i don't keep up, i'll be trampled on...not quite sure if that makes sense.

i agree that women actively perpetuate it--but it has to be a collective agreement not to, right? otherwise the ones who sell out will win in the end, no?

bleh.

[Arex]

Originally posted by kasia@Sep 13 2002, 12:22 AM
i see your point, arex...

i think my feelings have been mostly--i'm afraid that if i don't keep up, i'll be trampled on...not quite sure if that makes sense.

i agree that women actively perpetuate it--but it has to be a collective agreement not to, right? otherwise the ones who sell out will win in the end, no?

bleh.
Yeah, it would have to be a collective agreement in order for it to work. Which is why we won't likely see it happen. But I actually do come across a decent number of girls that claim to not spend too much time on their appearance...

But what do you think about what I said about all the prep work simply being the price women pay for being the "passive" party in the dating game? That makes sense to me. Even without make up, if a girl went around to enough guys, someone would bite, right?

Alex

[amietron]

does this analogy work?

the pressure to look good is like fishing
lipstick, hair, makeup, etc= a hook w/ extra bait
au natural= no (or little) bait, just hook.
sometimes the little hook catches the big fish.
other (most) times the hook w/ extra bait gets the fish.
it's a matter of chance.

we should post that bit about arex and personality first, looks second in the alex promo thread. :)

[CrX3183]

I don't really care how people think i look, if i look in the mirror and if there isn't anything in my teeth or hanging out of my nose, then i'm good to go.

[SunWuKong]

i have a very simple explanation. men, or most men, are just scrubby and don't give a damn - when they really should put more effort and thought into their appearances.

...or maybe i'm just describing myself...

[kasia]

Originally posted by amietron@Sep 15 2002, 09:16 AM
does this analogy work?

the pressure to look good is like fishing
lipstick, hair, makeup, etc= a hook w/ extra bait
au natural= no (or little) bait, just hook.
sometimes the little hook catches the big fish.
other (most) times the hook w/ extra bait gets the fish.
it's a matter of chance.

we should post that bit about arex and personality first, looks second in the alex promo thread. :)
kinda works...

so given that, do you think it's a bit unfair that we have to use the "extra bait" when guys don't?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by kasia@Sep 21 2002, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by amietron@Sep 15 2002, 09:16 AM
does this analogy work?

the pressure to look good is like fishing
lipstick, hair, makeup, etc= a hook w/ extra bait
au natural= no (or little) bait, just hook.
sometimes the little hook catches the big fish.
other (most) times the hook w/ extra bait gets the fish.
it's a matter of chance.

we should post that bit about arex and personality first, looks second in the alex promo thread. :)
kinda works...

so given that, do you think it's a bit unfair that we have to use the "extra bait" when guys don't?
what's fair or unfair about it? you women are competing with each other.

[kimpossible]

I use makeup, dye my hair and do other things to alter or enhance my appearance, but I'm not always sure it's been done to attract men or that I would have categorized thosed changes as efforts to look pretty.

My features are such that I can rotate ethnicities. A little sun and darker hair dye and I look Hawaiian. Stay out of the sun, get some red hair dye and green contacts and I look mostly, if not a little weirdly, caucasian.

Then there are times where I went for aqua, purple or white hair. To me, punky looks pretty and I think I looked good slightly punky. I like playing with my appearance and I like looking sharp but not to compete with other women or necessarily attract a man.



<!--EDIT|Hello_Hapa|Sep 21 2002, 03:51 PM-->

[kasia]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 21 2002, 07:32 PM
what's fair or unfair about it? you women are competing with each other.
what i *do* think is kinda sad is that some men see this more often than us women do.

[kasia]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Sep 21 2002, 10:30 PM
I use makeup, dye my hair and do other things to alter or enhance my appearance, but I'm not always sure it's been done to attract men or that I would have categorized thosed changes as efforts to look pretty.

My features are such that I can rotate ethnicities. A little sun and darker hair dye and I look Hawaiian. Stay out of the sun, get some red hair dye and green contacts and I look mostly, if not a little weirdly, caucasian.

Then there are times where I went for aqua, purple or white hair. To me, punky looks pretty and I think I looked good slightly punky. I like playing with my appearance and I like looking sharp but not to compete with other women or necessarily attract a man.
but all that is besides the point. why would you need make-up at all whether it be to attract men or in an effort to look pretty? guys don't need make-up.

[kasia]

i can debate with myself:

the most logical answer to my last post would probably be: but we don't have to be the same in order to be equal.


but that still begs the question: why are we, but not men, conditioned to use make-up in order to look attractive?

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by kasia@Sep 21 2002, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Sep 21 2002, 10:30 PM
I use makeup, dye my hair and do other things to alter or enhance my appearance, but I'm not always sure it's been done to attract men or that I would have categorized thosed changes as efforts to look pretty.

My features are such that I can rotate ethnicities. A little sun and darker hair dye and I look Hawaiian. Stay out of the sun, get some red hair dye and green contacts and I look mostly, if not a little weirdly, caucasian.

Then there are times where I went for aqua, purple or white hair. To me, punky looks pretty and I think I looked good slightly punky. I like playing with my appearance and I like looking sharp but not to compete with other women or necessarily attract a man.
but all that is besides the point. why would you need make-up at all whether it be to attract men or in an effort to look pretty? guys don't need make-up.
edit: Nevermind because I'm not sure what you wanted here.



<!--EDIT|Hello_Hapa|Sep 21 2002, 06:31 PM-->

[SunWuKong]

actually i've dated girls who don't use one single drop of makeup, and girls who only use as much as lip gloss. but also girls that do wear makeup. so i don't know.

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by kasia@Sep 21 2002, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Sep 21 2002, 10:30 PM
I use makeup, dye my hair and do other things to alter or enhance my appearance, but I'm not always sure it's been done to attract men or that I would have categorized thosed changes as efforts to look pretty.

My features are such that I can rotate ethnicities. A little sun and darker hair dye and I look Hawaiian. Stay out of the sun, get some red hair dye and green contacts and I look mostly, if not a little weirdly, caucasian.

Then there are times where I went for aqua, purple or white hair. To me, punky looks pretty and I think I looked good slightly punky. I like playing with my appearance and I like looking sharp but not to compete with other women or necessarily attract a man.
but all that is besides the point. why would you need make-up at all whether it be to attract men or in an effort to look pretty? guys don't need make-up.
No make up is fine with me. Gotta learn to love that mug when you wake up next to her and see her first thing in the morning in all her glory.

But the question is, would YOU feel comfortable walking out, going to work etc etc without any make-up.

[kasia]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Sep 22 2002, 02:40 AM
But the question is, would YOU feel comfortable walking out, going to work etc etc without any make-up.
that's a very good question. and for girls who wouldn't, why?

[tapestrybabe]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Sep 21 2002, 10:40 PM
But the question is, would YOU feel comfortable walking out, going to work etc etc without any make-up.
i actually feel more comfortable not wearing make up.. cuz with make up i feel self conscience.. like, is my lipstick smearing or whatever... so, i dont wear make up on a daily basis...