IR (split from similar thread)

[AngryABCGirl]

As an Asian woman whose experienced and seen fetishization from Asiaphiles both in the US and abroad, I can't help but feel a little bit of discomfort when I see a White guy with an Asian girl. It's a lot harder for me to trust a White guy to be with my friends who are Asian; I tend to give Asian guys more of the benefit of the doubt. Plus due to most likely popular images in the media and some probably bad partying experiences, I really think White guys are more likely to take advantage of a girl, much more likely an Asian one because of the whole fetish and power mentality. Other IR couples don't bother me that much at all, and I don't think I think about them if they pass by.

At the end of the day though, it's really none of my damn business except who I choose to be with.

[Filiprish]

AngryABCGirl:

Good point in that first paragraph. I've never heard that before. I think AMs are less likely to take advantage of women, as well.

At the end of the day though, it's really none of my damn business except who I choose to be with. Like most people here, I agree.

Btw, great signature. :smile:

[Faithless]

In general, how much of any situation do you have to witness before you feel you can make an accurate generalization?

It seems to me, if you do things scientifically, you sample a high number of a given population, and see how often a particular situation arises.

Why is it then, when it comes to our views on relationships and the like, we see a couple of supposed instances of a situation and come away with a generalization like it's the god given truth?

If you were given the task to analyze in a college class the negative you think you see in IR's, how far would you go to prove your theories?

Base it on a handful of couples? Or base it on a lot more?

[SynRG]

AngryABCGirl:

Good point in that first paragraph. I've never heard that before. I think AMs are less likely to take advantage of women, as well.


really??

I find the the tendency for men to take advantage of women prevailant accross all cultures/races, especially in College. Perhaps white people just have a more... "overt" style to it.. idunno. AngryABCGirl has posted about her experiences w/ white people before... for her I think it's mainly a comfort-level thing.. but I wonder if on a broader level if it has anything to do w/ the nerdy/effeminate/all-around-non-threatening stereotype of AMs?

But yeah.. that's a whole other discussion so if we get into that one the thread will prolly get split..

In general, how much of any situation do you have to witness before you feel you can make an accurate generalization?

It seems to me, if you do things scientifically, you sample a high number of a given population, and see how often a particular situation arises.

Why is it then, when it comes to our views on relationships and the like, we see a couple of supposed instances of a situation and come away with a generalization like it's the god given truth?

If you were given the task to analyze in a college class the negative you think you see in IR's, how far would you go to prove your theories?

Base it on a handful of couples? Or base it on a lot more?

Alot of times those couples of supposed instances is all we have to base our opinions on. Everyone, deep down inside, has an opinion, no matter what. The question of whether anyone can make an accurate generalization is a recurring theme on forums boards, especially a politically conscious one like YW.. at the end of the day, no one can ever REALLY make a totally ACCURATE generalization..

BUT- IMO that's what so great about forums boards... even if your opinion is based soley on personal experience.. bringing it out in discussions like this one force everyone participating to think about it at the next level, and who knows, opinions can always change :biggrin:

[Filiprish]

If you were given the task to analyze in a college class the negative you think you see in IR's, how far would you go to prove your theories?

Base it on a handful of couples? Or base it on a lot more? Base it on a lot more, of course. Afterall, it's college.

[Kuchana]

Frankly, I'm all for IR relationships. I think it's clearly an indication of how the future will be shaped significantly. Even if you're against the concept of it, more and more ir couples are coming about nowadays.

The most negative attitudes I've experienced from being in an ir relationship ironically was/are from other Asians (Hawaii and SF) It's very discomforting for me having to endure their stares and comments when they have no business having a say with who I want to be. I'm thinking each time, "What the hell are they staring at?" So yes I tend to have more ill will towards Asians in regards to my personal experience with an ir relationship rather than others in general.

[lena99]

In general, how much of any situation do you have to witness before you feel you can make an accurate generalization?

It seems to me, if you do things scientifically, you sample a high number of a given population, and see how often a particular situation arises.

Why is it then, when it comes to our views on relationships and the like, we see a couple of supposed instances of a situation and come away with a generalization like it's the god given truth?

If you were given the task to analyze in a college class the negative you think you see in IR's, how far would you go to prove your theories?

Base it on a handful of couples? Or base it on a lot more?

I don't think you can make an accurate generalization. After all, it's a generalization.
But I do think you can use polls, media, literature etc. to analyze trends. On this board, people tend to be upset about the 'fetishization' of Asian woman and since its so common in the media, its really hard to put that concern away when seeing an IR couple. But no, you can't say its the god given truth. Ultimately, IR opinions are usually largely based on personal experiences.

[Filiprish]

really??

I find the the tendency for men to take advantage of women prevailant accross all cultures/races, especially in College. Perhaps white people just have a more... "overt" style to it.. idunno. AngryABCGirl has posted about her experiences w/ white people before... for her I think it's mainly a comfort-level thing.. but I wonder if on a broader level if it has anything to do w/ the nerdy/effeminate/all-around-non-threatening stereotype of AMs? Well, from an A-AM perspective, I think so. I'm not saying A-AMs are not proned to taking advantage of women. Afterall, they're male. But, you don't see any A-AM in "Porky's" taking advantage of women -- the media has given WMs, as a whole, a lot of ideas. On the other hand, I think Af-AMs are the most proned to taking advantage of women, for various reasons. Besides, most A-AMs were raised to be respectul and honorable, at least the ones I grew up with. Maybe things are different in Asia and on the West Coast, there are more Asians there (obviously more in Asia) -- afterall, I really don't know a lot of Asians other than Filipinos. So, I can't made a valid judgement. IMO, taking advantage of a girl, period, but, in a fetish or power mentality-style aka "white boy"-style, just is not A-AM style. If anything, AMs are the least-proned to taking advantage of women.

But yeah.. that's a whole other discussion so if we get into that one the thread will prolly get split..Most likely. IMO, the discussion is petty -- very debatable, though. :wink:

[AngryABCGirl]

Well, from an A-AM perspective, I think so. I'm not saying A-AMs are not proned to taking advantage of women. Afterall, they're male. But, you don't see any A-AM in "Porky's" taking advantage of women -- the media has given WMs, as a whole, a lot of ideas. On the other hand, I think Af-AMs are the most proned to taking advantage of women, for various reasons. Besides, most A-AMs were raised to be respectul and honorable, at least the ones I grew up with. Maybe things are different in Asia and on the West Coast, there are more Asians there (obviously more in Asia) -- afterall, I really don't know a lot of Asians other than Filipinos. So, I can't made a valid judgement. IMO, taking advantage of a girl, period, but, in a fetish or power mentality-style aka "white boy"-style, just is not A-AM style. If anything, AMs are the least-proned to taking advantage of women.

Most likely. IMO, the discussion is petty -- very debatable, though. :wink:

It's that "white-boy" style that's the scary thing to me. It's not like every Asian-American man is gonna totally be honorable, but I definitely feel like, the 2nd-gens anyway, have been raised to be a bit more honorable and respectful of Asian-American women. This is from my experience though and the perspectives I hear from other Asian girls that I know though. I think if white males did specfically go target Asian females though, which happens a lot, it really does all go back to that colonialistic mindset of exploiting Asian women because they're more exotic. Which is probably why the idea of an IR with a WM/AF kinda makes me uncomfortable instead of seeing just an Asian couple or some other pairing. I can't help but think sometimes "what's that guy's motivation?"

[Emperor_Mike]

People are people. Black, White, Yellow, Red, Green, whatever. If anyone else thinks otherwise, screw 'em. You don't need feedback from the Peanut Gallery.

[Filiprish]

It's that "white-boy" style that's the scary thing to me. It's not like every Asian-American man is gonna totally be honorable, but I definitely feel like, the 2nd-gens anyway, have been raised to be a bit more honorable and respectful of Asian-American women. I agree. Another thing, A-AMs know about that "white-boy" style, so they don't adopt it b/c it's makes them more attractive, which may be a different way of taking advantage of women, I don't know.

This is from my experience though and the perspectives I hear from other Asian girls that I know though. I think if white males did specfically go target Asian females though, which happens a lot, it really does all go back to that colonialistic mindset of exploiting Asian women because they're more exotic.Also, it's those WMs who think simply b/c they're WM they're attractive to minority women.

Which is probably why the idea of an IR with a WM/AF kinda makes me uncomfortable instead of seeing just an Asian couple or some other pairing. I can't help but think sometimes "what's that guy's motivation?" Trying to equal the playing field (the ratio betweem AF/WM and WF/AM)...experimenting...is a sell-out or twinkie...has a fetish from WFs...not many AFs out there...social mobility/acces to "white privelage", etc...or, simply in love with her.

[BeTheReds]

Split.

I'm not trying to be a Nazi, but the talk was getting away from hapas' personal feelings on IR and more towards speaking about merits/bad points of IR in general, which wasn't what we were trying to do.

Moving to women, since most of the vocal parts in the split version are women.

Women's forum mod can do what she wants with this, either delete or move...

[kasia]

i'd say that i usually judge on a case-by-case basis.

in most cases where i actually am well-acquainted with the asian girl, i'm usually not bothered because there is an issue of fetishization but rather that there are indications by the white guy's actions that he views my friend as other than American or not as American as him or his white friends. this annoys me because, in many of those cases, my friends are actually pretty white-washed.

out of all the interracial couples i've observed, the only one where i can truly say that i believe the white guy fully respects the asian girl and has never said or done anything to make me believe that he has the capacity to believe that she is less or that her culture is inferior would be my younger cousin's relationship with her russian bf. and i believe it really has to do, in part, with the fact that he himself is an ethnic minority.

[kasia]

First, I think its interesting that this was split and put in the woman's forum because most of the discussions I have seen on IR (here and elsewhere) always seem to be dominated by men. Maybe there is something psycho-social...


well, i think the reason why it's in this forum is because bessie was trying to get some input from asian women re: IR relationships b/c we're typically the objects of the fetishization.

[SunWuKong]

question: would you rather deal with a Asian male IR hater or a non-Asian that goes on and on about how he's braved "discrimination" to be with his beautiful Asian woman?

[kimpossible]

Why is this in women instead of relationships?

edit: nm, read kasia's answer already.

[Filiprish]

Seriously, what's evil with fetishes and/or asiaphilia? I don't know myself. Some men like women with big breasts, some women like men with big chests -- some men like dominatrixes, some women like sensitive men, and vice versa. I don't know, as long as both parties are happy and the relationship is healthy, then the what's the problem -- it's their business, anyways.

First of all, what is a "healthy" relationship?

[mr. x]

^---whats so bad about sexism, or racism? its just a lil bit of hate thats all

[AngryABCGirl]

question: would you rather deal with a Asian male IR hater or a non-Asian that goes on and on about how he's braved "discrimination" to be with his beautiful Asian woman?

Asian male IR hater, at least his anger has some validity in my eyes whereas a White male giving up his "priviledge" to be with an Asian woman is just horseshit. I'd rather deal with the madness of my own brothers than of others.

[Kuchana]

question: would you rather deal with a Asian male IR hater or a non-Asian that goes on and on about how he's braved "discrimination" to be with his beautiful Asian woman?

Both. I feel it's wrong to discriminate one vs the other. Just because he may be of the same race doesn't in no way whatsoever excuse his actions nor a non-Asian as well. None of them deserve my sympathy.

[Filiprish]

Asian male IR hater, at least his anger has some validity in my eyes whereas a White male giving up his "priviledge" to be with an Asian woman is just horseshit. I'd rather deal with the madness of my own brothers than of others. Are WMs IR really giving up their "privelage?" Aren't AFs fairly "privelaged" themselves?

[mr. x]

well for one an AF has the media backing her up going "atta girl!"

[SunWuKong]

Are WMs IR really giving up their "privelage?" Aren't AFs fairly "privelaged" themselves?

if you equate "privilege" as being portrayed and preceived as exotic objects of lust, then sure...

[missmeow]

If I were an AF, I think I would be suspicious of WM who hit on me too[1]. Not because all WM are evil, oppressor types, but because I think most of them who specifically target AFs are doing so because they have a lack of social skills to interact with what they see as dominant American women. They are the types who think all Asians are "traditional" FOB types who are going to willingly submit to their demands and cater to their needs. Unfortunately, there are plenty AFs who either fit that role or are willing to play it in order to catch a WM[2]. However, I do think that these types of "fetish" relationships will eventually dissolve because in the end I would hope that the feitishized party would clue in and drop the loser.


As for IR itself, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with it. I have benefitted from it myself, so I would be hypocritical if I was against it.


[1] I think there is a difference getting hit on and agressively persued versus working with someone, meeting someone, or making friends with someone, etc and then perhaps taking it further.
[2] I am not making a statement of AFs in general, I am specifically talking about those who are enamored with WM for whatever reasons they might have.

[hooligan]

Are WMs IR really giving up their "privelage?" Aren't AFs fairly "privelaged" themselves?
not really because they're double minorities, as asians and as women.

[Filiprish]

missmeow:

Great post! On the other hand, fetish relationships are a two-way street, not just one-way as you suggested.

not really because they're double minorities, as asians and as women. True, but AFs definitely have privalages other minority women don't. That's why WMs are so willing to date them.

[tommyhtown]

True, but AFs definitely have privalages other minority women don't. That's why WMs are so willing to date them.

By AFs, you mean East Asians and SE Asians, right? Please give an example of the privileges that AFs have over other minority women -- latinas, jewish, blacks, middleeastern, ... The privileges that you speak of are not obvious to me.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

By AFs, you mean East Asians and SE Asians, right? Please give an example of the privileges that AFs have over other minority women -- latinas, jewish, blacks, middleeastern, ... The privileges that you speak of are not obvious to me.

No shit. What the fuck kind of privileges? The idea that AF have some type of advantage is garbage and pisses me off. No, AF are not 'privileged' in society just because the media exotifies them. Why is the rate of depression (or was that suicide also?) highest for AF out of all groups in society? I'd definitely argue that AF are 'less privileged' than AM in the U.S. due to the very oppression that women as a whole already face. Heck, going by this mentality, BM are also privileged due to being hyper-masculinized by the media. But no one ever says that, do they? Anyone suggesting that black males have any type of inherent privilege in the U.S. would be immediately ostracized. Some devoted Asian American "activists" need to get over the fact that Asian women are not more 'privileged' than they are due to..I dunno, interracial marriage disparity or whatever. And yeah, once again, aside from being 'exotified', I don't see any of these inherent privileges, ESPECIALLY if you are talking about privileges not enjoyed by Asian men (for Asian women solely).

[kimpossible]

True, but AFs definitely have privalages other minority women don't. That's why WMs are so willing to date them.

Just one small point of contention: it almost sounds like you're making out white males and Asian females to have some sort of special common bond which makes it more natural for them to pair up. I think that's a stereotype that hurts both IR couples and the Asian American community at large because it's kind of a kick in the nuts to Asian males.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

On the other hand, fetish relationships are a two-way street, not just one-way as you suggested.

Definitely not always the case.

True, but AFs definitely have privalages other minority women don't. That's why WMs are so willing to date them.

Wait.....so WM's are willing to date AF's but not other minority women because...they realize that AF have privileges other minority women don't? Because of these privileges, white men are like "Oh, I could settle for an Asian girl cause she's got all these privileges, but not a black or hispanic girl"?? Or do you feel AF's are privileged simply because white men are willing to date them? And I ask again aside from possibly being seen as exotic sex objects, what other 'privileges' do Asian women (apart from Asian men) enjoy? Regardless and once again, as I mentioned in my previous post, I remain oblivious to whatever advantage(s) you're talking about.

[hooligan]

missmeow:

Great post! On the other hand, fetish relationships are a two-way street, not just one-way as you suggested.

True, but AFs definitely have privalages other minority women don't. That's why WMs are so willing to date them.
um, what you call privelege, i call racism and stereotypes. : D

[yoMAMA]

they say asians are the "priviliged minority" vs the other "under-represented minority URM"....

i don't see what kind of privilige i have...

[AngryABCGirl]

WHAT FUCKING PRIVILEDGE?!

I certainly don't feel like it's a fucking priviledge that I gotta constantly watch out extra for me and my girls more than other women do because sick fucks from any race other then are own think we're easy, tight pussy.

[ChairmanMah]

the next time i hear an asian girl say they only like white guys i'm gonna slap em..

filipirish has been brainwashed. Like others who try to ride on Connie Chung or Lucy lius coattails.

you are only made more hot to make you feel better so that white nerds who don't know what to do will target you.

is that what you want. to be lower class white mens second choice?

has anyone ever heard the phrase "you give em a little, you'll get back a lot"

i think this is the case for american media society as a whole.

we give em af a little media power and they'll give us their genes and children.

completely orchestrated cultivation of a nation of sex workers.

[mr. x]

No shit. What the fuck kind of privileges? And yeah, once again, aside from being 'exotified', I don't see any of these inherent privileges, ESPECIALLY if you are talking about privileges not enjoyed by Asian men (for Asian women solely).

no kidding, one only needs to look at the UCLA rape case

[Filiprish]

I was talking about the economic and social privelages that ALL Asians, in general, have. On the global scale, Asians/the East and Europeans/the West are thought of as equals, or should I say competitors. In the US, Asians are thought of as the "model minority." The fact that the MM myth alone says a lot about how "white" America views Asians, whether or not that myth is true or beneficial -- please, let's not get into that arguement. At most Ivy Leagues, Asians are the largest minority group. "White" America does not have a problem with Asians, at all, except maybe being pissed about losing their job to them.

The thing about Asians, we conform/assimilate, that's how we got the MM label. Hispanics and "blacks" are less inclined to conformity/assimilation due to many things -- socioeconomics and history being the most detrimental to the ability or willingness to conform/assimilate. "White" America has major gripes about this, but they have no problem with their Asian model minority. Asian/European relation aren't exactly a walk in the park, either. They're just better than all other races, besides Jews who are practically "white" themselves. We have "black" people to thank for paving the way for our privelages.

Just one small point of contention: it almost sounds like you're making out white males and Asian females to have some sort of special common bond which makes it more natural for them to pair up. I think that's a stereotype that hurts both IR couples and the Asian American community at large because it's kind of a kick in the nuts to Asian males. Well, the truth isn't always the most pleasant thing.

[SunWuKong]

True, but AFs definitely have privalages other minority women don't. That's why WMs are so willing to date them.

brother, you have been brainwashed by MM.com. Asian women are not privileged, they are objectified and exotified. that's why many white men want to date them. and the fact that they are desired does not give them "privilege". does it give them pay rates equal to white men or white women? no. does it help them break through the glass ceiling? no. does it mean they escape female stereotypes? no. does it mean they escape racial stereotypes? no. does it make them any less possible targets of sexual assault? no. in fact, it probably increases their chances of being targets of sexual assault.

white men wanting to date them is not privilege. it's objectification and stereotyping. it doesn't give them any of the benefits that a "privileged" class has.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Well, the truth isn't always the most pleasant thing.

Of course. However, unfortunately the notion that white men and asian women have any type of special common bond or whatever is not truth at all, pleasant or unpleasant, which is what you seem to suggest.

I was talking about the economic and social privelages that ALL Asians, in general, have.

Economic and social privileges....being natural advantages Asians hold regarding socio-economic opportunity in the U.S? I suppose...if you count being seen as "lower, but not quite as low as blacks or hispanics" as a "privilege", then yes, maybe along some lines Asian people are "privileged".

On the global scale, Asians/the East and Europeans/the West are thought of as equals, or should I say competitors.

In the eyes of whites? That is questionable. But nevertheless beside the point.

"White" America does not have a problem with Asians, at all, except maybe being pissed about losing their job to them.

How do you explain the existing tolerance regarding racist jokes or demeaning attitudes and ignorance towards Asians in mainstream media (controlled largely by whites) as opposed to people suddenly being all up in arms whenever a black joke is raised? In this case, white American may not have a 'problem' with Asians, but Asians then should definitely have a 'problem' with white America.

The thing about Asians, we conform/assimilate, that's how we got the MM label. Hispanics and "blacks" are less inclined to conformity/assimilation due to many things -- socioeconomics and history being the most detrimental to the ability or willingness to conform/assimilate. "White" America has major gripes about this, but they have no problem with their Asian model minority.

Again, you speak as if this 'model minority' label is a good thing doing us a service. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Look, the white people have no problem with us! We're seen as "almost" just as good and equal as they are! Thank God we conformed our asses (not like our parents worked hard or anything right?) otherwise we'd be down with the blacks and browns and the white man would still have these 'gripes'.

Asian/European relation aren't exactly a walk in the park, either. They're just better than all other races, besides Jews who are practically "white" themselves. We have "black" people to thank for paving the way for our privelages.

So we should thank black people for making it so that white people could give us 'model minority' status? I'm not denying the contributions African Americans made esp. during the Civil Rights era. But...just trying to see what you are getting at here. Once again...what privileges? Unless you're simply saying that Asians are 'privileged' because they aren't as oppressed as other minority groups, which is equally questionable.

[SunWuKong]

I was talking about the economic and social privelages that ALL Asians, in general, have.

1) not all Asians have this so called privilege that you seem to think they have. there are many poor immigrants that are living at the poverty line. my own relatives either were or are examples of this.

2) many Southeast Asians of refugee backgrounds actually perform at the same level as poor blacks and Latinos, which is to say, way below the white average. i think in one county in southern California, there are actually more Southeast Asians in prison than blacks.

On the global scale, Asians/the East and Europeans/the West are thought of as equals, or should I say competitors.

1) globally speaking, even in Asia, oftentimes Westerners are treated with more respect and are more affluent than the locals if they actually live in Asia - with the exception perhaps of English teachers in Japan.

2) in terms of the US, Asian people are still earning less than their white counterparts for doing the same jobs, and they are still under the glass ceiling. they are still victims of hate crimes. and many (about 79% of all Asians in America are foreign-born) are immigrants that face obstacles linguistically, culturally, etc etc, in navigating how things are done in the US. for example, they may not be aware of how to use the American justice system to protect themselves. they may not be provided with government documents or ballets in their own languages so that they are blinded and their voting-power rendered pretty much non-existent. etc etc.

The fact that the MM myth alone says a lot about how "white" America views Asians, whether or not that myth is true or beneficial -- please, let's not get into that arguement.

sorry, i have to get into this argument.

1) the model minority myth was invented by the Republican party about 20 years ago for their political agenda. they wanted to cut welfare, of which the majority of recipients were blacks and Latinos. firstly, this doesn't mean that Asian people do not need it, it simply points out that many poor immigrants do not know they could apply for government help. secondly, this was not a praise of Asian success or did it lessen discrimination that Asians may face in the academic world or in the work force - the model minority myth exploits the fact of Asian success for politicians' political agenda of cutting welfare.

2) so many years after the conception of the model minority myth, Asians are still under the glass ceiling and are still earning less than their white counterparts for doing the same jobs. the myth has not helped them.

3) it glosses over the struggles that poor immigrants must face, thus denying social help that they may need, because the perception is that Asians are succeeding on their own, and they don't need help. but social help should be provided to those who are struggling, period.

4) it places higher expectations on Asian students, creating the effect that even if Asian students are performing very well and at or even above the white average, they are still underachievers. it's unnecessary pressure and some Asian students have actually committed suicide because of academic pressure. some colleges have even placed higher criteria for admission for Asian applicants.

5) as i've mentioned before, many Southeast Asians from refugee background are actually performing at the same level as poor blacks and Latinos - which just debunks the model minority myth as something to be applied to all Asian people in this country.

[Filiprish]

brother, you have been brainwashed by MM.com. Asian women are not privileged, they are objectified and exotified. that's why many white men want to date them. and the fact that they are desired does not give them "privilege". does it give them pay rates equal to white men or white women? no. does it help them break through the glass ceiling? no. does it mean they escape female stereotypes? no. does it mean they escape racial stereotypes? no. does it make them any less possible targets of sexual assault? no. in fact, it probably increases their chances of being targets of sexual assault.

white men wanting to date them is not privilege. it's objectification and stereotyping. it doesn't give them any of the benefits that a "privileged" class has. http://www.forums.yellowworld.org/images/smilies/confused.gif

Economic and social privileges....being natural advantages Asians hold regarding socio-economic opportunity in the U.S? I suppose...if you count being seen as "lower, but not quite as low as blacks or hispanics" as a "privilege", then yes, maybe along some lines Asian people are "privileged". This is what I'm talking about, Asians are more "privelaged" than other races -- that is why WMs are willing to date AFs. WMs can date AFs w/o getting much flack from their families who don't want "savages" being a part it.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

^Why the confusion? Not that hard to understand. Being a more desirable (or tolerable) option for white men looking for an alternative or 'new flavor' to white women does not present itself as a privilege for asian women, because such a preference (this lean towards asian women as opposed to black or hispanic women) is based largely on the legacy of stereotypes and harmful generalizations serving only to undermine any type of progress towards socio-economic equality for Asian women (and women in general). Such a preference or lean on the part of white men towards Asian women does not serve to level the playing field for Asian women on any aspects, as SWK mentioned, and furthermore may present an even greater risk from certain dangers such as sexual assault or harassment.

This is what I'm talking about, Asians are more "privelaged" than other races -- that is why WMs are willing to date AFs. WMs can date AFs w/o getting much flack from their families who don't want "savages" being a part it.

Sorry, I still fail to see how this makes Asian women or Asians more 'privileged' since the ignorant mentality behind the racist and deeply-rooted justification of such Asian/White relationships is that "Asians may be lower than us but not as low as the others". Asian groups then as a whole serve only to play a role in perpetuating the social hierarchy in the eyes of the powerful who see such perpetuation as in their best interests. I guess I can't argue with you if you seem to think that a middle position on a hierarchy that is bullshit to begin with is a positive thing. I guess I should feel privileged because I'm only getting assraped once instead of the other guy over there who is getting assraped three times.

[Filiprish]

1) not all Asians have this so called privilege that you seem to think they have. there are many poor immigrants that are living at the poverty line. my own relatives either were or are examples of this. Thanks for all the great info, but I already know this all stuff. I should have been more careful when I typed "ALL." By "ALL" I meant males AND females. Someone was saying that I was saying only AFs are privelaged. I did say "in general," though. ALL, Asians, male/female of all nationalities do have more social mobility/potential than other races, though, which is what I was saying. "White" people are more comfortable having Asians in leadership positions than any other race. Is this not true? Again, thanks for all the great info for the people do not know all the things you mentioned..

^Why the confusement? Not that hard to understand. Being a more desirable (or tolerable) option for white men looking for an alternative or 'new flavor' to white women does not present itself as a privilege for asian women, because such a preference (this lean towards asian women as opposed to black or hispanic women) is based largely on the legacy of stereotypes and harmful generalizations serving only to undermine any type of progress towards socio-economic equality for Asian women (and women in general). Such a preference or lean on the part of white men towards Asian women does not serve to level the playing field for Asian women on any aspects, as SWK mentioned, and furthermore may present an even greater risk from certain dangers such as sexual assault or harassment. When did I ever say that it was a privelage for AFs to be exoticised. That is why I'm http://www.forums.yellowworld.org/images/smilies/confused.gif.

Sorry, I still fail to see how this makes Asian women or Asians more 'privileged' since the ignorant mentality behind the racist and deeply-rooted justification of such Asian/White relationships is that "Asians may be lower than us but not as low as the others". Asian groups then as a whole serve only to play a role in perpetuating the social hierarchy in the eyes of the powerful who see such perpetuation as in their best interests. I guess I can't argue with you if you seem to think that a middle position on a hierarchy that is bullshit to begin with is a positive thing. I guess I should feel privileged because I'm only getting assraped once instead of the other guy over there who is getting assraped three times. You need to make up your mind, man. You just said so yourself that Asians were privelaged. I never said you should be content with not being equal or greater. You shouldn't feel privelaged, but the reality is that you are.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

You need to make up your mind, man. You just said so yourself that Asians were privelaged. I never said you should be content with not being equal or greater. You shouldn't feel privelaged, but the reality is that you are.

Actually, I said that I could see how some people would arrive at the notion that Asian people are 'privileged' in the sense that they aren't getting nearly as screwed over as everyone else, but that I'm still hesitant to consider Asian people as a whole 'privileged' simply because there are groups who may be worse off. We're still getting screwed. People who are getting screwed aren't privileged in my opinion.

[achtungbaby]

"White" people are more comfortable having Asians in leadership positions than any other race. Is this not true?
Where are you getting this information? I think it's a knee-jerk reaction to assume that the higher percentage of Asians (relative to other minorities) in managerial positions means that whites feel like we're best buds with them. Several years ago the Committee of 100 released a survey showing a great deal of resentment and distrust towards Asians in the workplace. More than a quarter of the respondents felt their Asian (particularly Chinese) counterparts had no business in the workplace and could not be trusted...not to mention 24% of them said they'd be opposed to marrying an Asian American...

Now here's the part of that same survey that should make you feel better: 91% of the respondents said Chinese Americans had strong family values, 77% said they felt they were honest business people and 67% felt Asians put a high premium on education.

I'm empathetic. I just love the way whites extol integrity and honesty and even fancy their truth to be more sober, objective and reasonable.

"Oh he's got WMD alright, I know it!"

You need to make up your mind, man. You just said so yourself that Asians were privelaged. I never said you should be content with not being equal or greater. You shouldn't feel privelaged, but the reality is that you are.
That's the tough little thing about making ridiculous, blanket statements about certain groups...often times the group itself might just be larger than you realize...

[Filiprish]

Gumby:
Well, I'd say all people living in America are privileged to a certain extent. Just think about the oppression and poverty in the world and then look back at the US. I'd much rather be dealing with the bullshit here. I see where you're coming from, though. All minorities should NOT be content in NOT getting the equality and respect they deserve.

That's the tough little thing about making ridiculous, blanket statements about certain groups...often times the group itself might just be larger than you realize... Or, I'm just too lazy to type everything everybody just informed me on. And, people think I don't what I'm talking about, b/c I'm new and they don't know what I know, and/or is wishful thinking on their part that I don't know. I'll have to be more elaborate and provide links for now on. http://www.forums.yellowworld.org/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Gumby:
Well, I'd say all people living in America are privileged to a certain extent. Just think about the oppression and poverty in the world and then look back at the US. I'd much rather be dealing with the bullshit here. I see where you're coming from, though. All minorities should NOT be content in NOT getting the equality and respect they deserve.

Basically you're saying that all Americans have socio-economic privilege to a certain extent in comparison to some other people in the world living in truly shitty circumstances. In that case then the argument is moot, because everyone can be labeled as 'privileged' as long as there are people who are doing even worse off than they are due to oppressive obstacles standing in the way of socio-economic equality.

[Filiprish]

Basically you're saying that all Americans have socio-economic privilege to a certain extent in comparison to some other people in the world living in truly shitty circumstances. In that case then the argument is moot, because everyone can be labeled as 'privileged' as long as there are people who are doing even worse off than they are due to oppressive obstacles standing in the way of socio-economic equality. No, not really. Depends on what context we're talking about -- the US or the world. AAs are still better of than other minorities, in the US, and, in general, better off the many others in the world. Btw, this "arguement" is starting to get frivolous.

[SunWuKong]

maybe you are defining "privileged" as "better off" than the racism and socio-economic situation that the black American community faces.

firstly, i personally don't think Asians are that much "better off" than blacks. we face different issues, some of the issues that Asians face do not exist in the black community and may be more detrimental, and some may be less detrimental, and the vice versa is also true. for one example, blacks aren't stereotyped as inassimilable foreigners that speak bad English. in fact, just last week, i had a recruiter insist that i was lying about being a US citizen when he was talking to me on the phone about a job.

secondly, i think most people (at least most people on this site) actually will agree that to be considered "privileged", your racial/ethnic group would have to be in the same playing field as whites - and Asians are definitely not there.

with all the struggles i've listed concerning Asians and particularly Asian women, struggles that white people do not face, i really fail to see how they're "privileged" at all. and really, you only need to look at two facts to know that Asians are not privileged. 1) we are not earning as much as whites for doing the same jobs and we're still under the glass ceiling, 2) we face racism and discrimination for being Asian.

i don't know if you've been around too many rich Asian folks or what, but there are poor Asians and plenty of them. i know some right in DC. they live in apartments in Chinatown that look like they're falling apart.

"White" people are more comfortable having Asians in leadership positions than any other race. Is this not true?

no, as i've said before, Asian people are still under the glass ceiling. oh, we can make it to middle management, but at the executive level, it's still mostly white men. and middle management is about as good as a dog that gets to actually sleep indoors instead of outdoors. that doesn't make us "privileged". that makes us discriminated against.

furthermore, it's not because Asian women are more "privileged" - as you call it - and that they're not "savages" that white men want to date them. otherwise you'll see just as many white women wanting to date Asian men because Asian men are in an even higher socio-economic bracket than Asian women. white women are less likely to date Asian men than white men are likely to date Asian women because Asian men are desexualised in American society and because Asian women are sexually objectified. it's really different sides of the same coin.

[Filiprish]

^Well, me and Gumby think that Asians, IN GENERAL, are more privilaged, and I think, even the poor ones are, as well. Yeah, Asians don't exactly have it easy, but we're better off. I guess when it comes down to it, it's my opinions against yours.

----------

All:
Since, this thread exists now, b/c it's split from another, we might as well discuss the topic at hand. Are AMs less likely than WMs to take advantage of a girl?

[ChairmanMah]

Asian/European relation aren't exactly a walk in the park, either. They're just better than all other races, besides Jews who are practically "white" themselves. We have "black" people to thank for paving the way for our privelages.

man, you're are all mixed up. you don't have to justify yourself to us. we understand.

[Filiprish]

man, you're are all mixed up. you don't have to justify yourself to us. we understand. Justify myself? I have no clue what you mean.

[kitty]

No, not really. Depends on what context we're talking about -- the US or the world. AAs are still better of than other minorities, in the US, and, in general, better off the many others in the world. Btw, this "arguement" is starting to get frivolous.

No offense, but all this is complete and utter bullshit.

The Southeast Asians who aren't the big three (chinese, japanese, korean) are often ignored or just lumped into this pan-Asian umbrella term, completely ignoring their issues. Many came as refugees and very few, if any, government programs are dedicated to helping them out. Add to that the belief that Asians are generally rich 'model minorities' and the Asians who need the help the most are denied.

Also, consider the term 'better off' (which I think is ridiculous in and of itself, because I don't think any two communities' experiences can be compared) -- but even if we need to go there, consider why other minorities in America have it bad. Racial stereotyping. Economic obstacles. While Asians may not have the same exact problems as underpriveleged blacks or Latinos, the core problems we face are the same. Racial stereotyping prevents all people of colour from getting jobs, getting promotions, or having certain kinds of social programming affect us. All of us are stereotyped and typecast in Hollywood, all of us face problems in the sexual/dating sphere when it comes to stereotypes and prejudicial dating behaviour.

I fail to see how we are better off. Maybe Asians have a disproportionately higher representation in higher education -- but we also have a disproportionately higher suicide rate in higher education. We may have a higher graduation rate, but we also have a higher dissatisfaction rate. Blacks and Latinos may have problems getting themselves into higher education, but affirmative action has helped, whereas affirmative action does not usually acknowledge the underprivileged Asians who need that help to get into college.

And I can't even get into the whole AF's are more privileged than other women of colour. That's just sickening -- although it's not the first time I've heard it. Being a sex bunny for the white man isn't exactly something to be aspired to.

[rice cracker]

And I can't even get into the whole AF's are more privileged than other women of colour. That's just sickening -- although it's not the first time I've heard it. Being a sex bunny for the white man isn't exactly something to be aspired to.

A-fucking-men. All the men posting here arguing about how goddamned priveleged we are really need to stfu and let the women speak on it. Are you a woman? Can you speak from personal experience about the privelege and lack of you've encountered because of your race and gender? No? Then stuff it.

Whites are NOT the end all of desireable trophies that some of you are making them out to seem. Being considered exotic and having to answer to ridiculous sexual stereotypes held by non-Asian men while juggling angry Asian men bitching me out for something I can't control is not privelege.

[SunWuKong]

^Well, me and Gumby think that Asians, IN GENERAL, are more privilaged, and I think, even the poor ones are, as well. Yeah, Asians don't exactly have it easy, but we're better off. I guess when it comes down to it, it's my opinions against yours.

well, ok, we can agree to disagree that Asians have it better than blacks and Latinos. i would say that the racism that blacks and Latinos face in general are more detrimental, but i definitely wouldn't say that Asians are "better off". to be honest, it really shows a lack of understanding of what Asian people in this country face to say that. plus, it's practically buying into the model minority myth. and i've already explained in a previous post why the model minority myth is bad for Asian Americans.

but how about what i said in the last paragraph of my last post? that white men don't date Asian women because Asian women are, in your eyes, more privileged, that white men date Asian women because Asian women are exoticised?

[BeTheReds]

that white men don't date Asian women because Asian women are, in your eyes, more privileged, that white men date Asian women because Asian women are exoticised?


I think sometimes exotification has nothing to do with it. If I were to count all my relationships in college as IRs (which, visually, they were) I'd say it has more to do with finding someone of the same educational level with similar hobbies that you are attracted to.

Of course, I guess I can't speak as an average white guy, so I can't give any definitive answer, and I guess I really can't count those relationships as IRs.

Twice though, I did shack up with Asian girls who were looking for a white dude. One broke up with me because I was "too Asian" for her. Another broke up with me because I had awakened something new in her and suddenly I was "not Asian enough".

[kitty]

i'm sorry. i need to be a little anal.

exoticise. not exotify.
privilege. not priviledge.

really really really sorry...

[SunWuKong]

I think sometimes exotification has nothing to do with it.

yeah, let me correct myself. white guys are more likely to date Asian girls than white girls are likely to date Asian guys because, at least partly, of the exoticisation of Asian women.

[BeTheReds]

yeah, let me correct myself. white guys are more likely to date Asian girls than white girls are likely to date Asian guys because, at least partly, of the exoticisation of Asian women.


Probably true, but then wouldn't they also just be more likely to be dating, period?

[nameless]

^Well, me and Gumby think that Asians, IN GENERAL, are more privilaged, and I think, even the poor ones are, as well. Yeah, Asians don't exactly have it easy, but we're better off. I guess when it comes down to it, it's my opinions against yours.



Thanks to MM, poor Asians are the last to receive attention, let alone welfare, when it comes to their economic condition. In no way is that priveleged...

[SunWuKong]

Probably true, but then wouldn't they also just be more likely to be dating, period?

yes. from what i said, logically speaking, what you said would also be true.

[sweetjamdown]

Heh, it's funny. Since I've been visiting predominantly Asian forums such as this, I feel just as distrustful when I see a white guy with an Asian girl as I do when I see a black guy with a white girl. It really pissed me off in college that some of the most obnoxious white guys I knew had Asian girlfriends.

[SunWuKong]

Probably true, but then wouldn't they also just be more likely to be dating, period?

actually, i like to add to my last response to this - which is that there are more Asian women than there are Asian men in this country.

[Filiprish]

Many AFs in IR that I come across are very competitive, and, often, domineering alpha-females. By this I mean towards other females. Has this been anyone else's experience.

[kasia]

Many AFs in IR that I come across are very competitive, and, often, domineering alpha-females. By this I mean towards other females. Has this been anyone else's experience.

no. i've met about an equal number of domineering and non-domineering asian females.

but how is this relevant to the topic?

[Filiprish]

no. i've met about an equal number of domineering and non-domineering asian females.

but how is this relevant to the topic? Well, I'm not really sure what the topic is. This seems like a generic IR thread that concerns woman, so, instead of starting a new thread, I post this question here. Do you know what the topic is?

Well, this is relevant to IR, though. I'm just trying to understand more about the psychology of the AF in IR. Maybe to try and link their IR to social ladder-climbing as a form of competition or dominance towards other AFs.

[kitty]

Many AFs in IR that I come across are very competitive, and, often, domineering alpha-females. By this I mean towards other females. Has this been anyone else's experience.

*looks at self* well, i suppose i am a domineering, competitive bitch.

wear it loud and wear it proud. :biggrin:

[kasia]

Well, I'm not really sure what the topic is. This seems like a generic IR thread that concerns woman, so, instead of starting a new thread, I post this question here. Do you know what the topic is?

Well, this is relevant to IR, though. I'm just trying to understand more about the psychology of the AF in IR. Maybe to try and link their IR to social ladder-climbing as a form of competition or dominance towards other AFs.

as shown in the first post of the thread (which we highly encourage reading before responding to any thread), the topic is whether the asian females on this board are supportive or skeptical of IR relationships. other posters have answered accordingly.

[ChairmanMah]

Many AFs in IR that I come across are very competitive, and, often, domineering alpha-females. By this I mean towards other females. Has this been anyone else's experience.

i think being asian, it is one of the most competitive races there is. Especially chinese japan and korea.

just amongst family talking to one another is full of criticisms.

i think it is only natural for the domineering females you speak of to be critical of everyone.

but i have met my fair share of nice ones too.

It seems liked the most fucked up ones hate on their own race but bow and kneel for whites..

these girls are complete trash and garbage.

[Filiprish]

as shown in the first post of the thread (which we highly encourage reading before responding to any thread), the topic is whether the asian females on this board are supportive or skeptical of IR relationships. other posters have answered accordingly. That makes sense. I was a little confused b/c we (AngryABCGirl, SynRG and myself) were talking about how AMs are or are not more likely to take advantage of a girl when this thread got split from the original.

[kimpossible]

i think being asian, it is one of the most competitive races there is. Especially chinese japan and korea.

just amongst family talking to one another is full of criticisms.


Okay, stop talking for all Asians everywhere. Some of the things you say I agree with, a good portion I ignore because you seem like an okay guy overall, but this is bullshit. There's criticisms amongst family members from many backgrounds, not just Chinese, Japanese and Korean. Furthermore, it has nothing to do with Asian females that are in interracial relationships on the whole or that they are domineering, competitive alpha bitches because they are Asian.

[shy]

question: would you rather deal with a Asian male IR hater or a non-Asian that goes on and on about how he's braved "discrimination" to be with his beautiful Asian woman?

oh god. tough one. they are both annoying. but i think the former is more annoying w/ my personal experience because there's a personal attack on that level that i have experienced. like how some of you have seen a few AM refer to me as a sellout (and one AW awhile back who's no longer here... i think).

this personal attack is, of course, way more insulting. and i see it as the root of hate attitudes/crimes that i just can not tolerate.

the latter... is just plain annoying. but, at the same time, because there's a lack of hatred involved, i do feel that such people are a bit easier to reason with.

Asian male IR hater, at least his anger has some validity in my eyes whereas a White male giving up his "priviledge" to be with an Asian woman is just horseshit. I'd rather deal with the madness of my own brothers than of others.

for real?

but don't you think its absolutely sad and even less progressive that there's hatred w/in our own culture? if we can't, as asian individuals work together in a more civilized and effective manner, how the hell are we to band together in a way stronger unison to battle against racism against us? or racism in general?

the next time i hear an asian girl say they only like white guys i'm gonna slap em..

filipirish has been brainwashed. Like others who try to ride on Connie Chung or Lucy lius coattails.

you are only made more hot to make you feel better so that white nerds who don't know what to do will target you.

is that what you want. to be lower class white mens second choice?

has anyone ever heard the phrase "you give em a little, you'll get back a lot"

i think this is the case for american media society as a whole.

we give em af a little media power and they'll give us their genes and children.

completely orchestrated cultivation of a nation of sex workers.

not that i agree with filipirish, but i think your attitude is the opposite extreme of hers. two wrongs don't make a right, dude.

you can not go around black listing every AF that's w/ a WM like you usually have shown to do on this board.

[iris]

I am very supportive of any IR relationship. On a personal note, I've dated all races. My last bf was jewish and my current one is German/English.

What other people do is their own business and I've always maintained that philosophy. It's our right to an opinion and as human beings, we can't help being judgemental. The difference between grown folk and others, the just and the unjust, is the ability to try to be tolerant.

Dating someone of a different race can be as different or as similiar as you make it. If you go into it thinking, "how will they ever accept my differences?" then you're not ready to be in an IR relationship, much less a relationship at all. If you enter a relationship knowing you're both humans and both experience emotion and pain, then maybe you're mature enough to make it long-lasting. Cultivating differences between one another hurts a relationship even before it begins whether or not they are Asian.

As we are all entitled to our opinions, we are also entitled to our preferences. Some people will prefer White over Asian. Others will prefer Asians over all other races. Some girls like taller men. Some guys prefer blue eyes. But knowing the difference between a wanted opinion and a tactless observation is how you determine a mature individual.

You can't stop someone from their opinion. You can't argue that strawberry is better with whip cream and not peanut butter if someone else prefers it the other way. After all, in the end, it comes down to personal preference.

[achtungbaby]

You can't stop someone from their opinion. You can't argue that strawberry is better with whip cream and not peanut butter if someone else prefers it the other way. After all, in the end, it comes down to personal preference.
"Exactly! That's what we've been saying all along!" -- chorus of YW's resident asiaphiles

:biggrin:

Not to repeat the obvious regarding the righteousness of preference, there's nothing wrong with examining your preferences either, even their roots, and perhaps, maybe, to take other elements surrounding the issue of interracial dating into account -- to be cognizant and aware of them and then choose whatever the hell you want.

By the way, what was the point of this thread again and why was it split from the other IR thread? Was this another subtle informal poll to see who's open to being PM'd by non-Asians?:)

[kimpossible]

but don't you think its absolutely sad and even less progressive that there's hatred w/in our own culture? if we can't, as asian individuals work together in a more civilized and effective manner, how the hell are we to band together in a way stronger unison to battle against racism against us? or racism in general?


In an effort to be honest, I've said something similar to what AngryABC said in another thread. Even as a mixed raced white/Asian, I'd personally rather deal with a hapa/IR hater than whiny Asiaphile in a lesser of two evils type situation.

Just didn't want Bess to take heat for something I may have started.

edit: But it's damn hurtful for me to see such vitriol consistently directed towards Asian females. I'll live with the label of child of sellout-ism and have done my best to explore it, become aware of it and be supportive as I can of the Asian American community by claiming the good and bad of my heritage. I truly am doing my best to learn about the problems that face the Asian male in America and throw in my support to the best of my ability. But not at the cost of Asian females. That's asking too much.

[shy]

In an effort to be honest, I've said something similar to what AngryABC said in another thread. Even as a mixed raced white/Asian, I'd personally rather deal with a hapa/IR hater than whiny Asiaphile in a lesser of two evils type situation.

Just didn't want Bess to take heat for something I may have started.

edit: But it's damn hurtful for me to see such vitriol consistently directed towards Asian females. I'll live with the label of child of sellout-ism and have done my best to explore it, become aware of it and be supportive as I can of the Asian American community by claiming the good and bad of my heritage. I truly am doing my best to learn about the problems that face the Asian male in America and throw in my support to the best of my ability. But not at the cost of Asian females. That's asking too much.

i'm not saying that to be annoyed with one over the other has a 'right or wrong'. it's more the reasons behind her choice that i'm interested in.

after all, she stated that she could see an IR hater having valid points.

i'm not exactly sure what valid points that might be. because of all the IR haters i've had to listen to, i find their points anything BUT valid. they go on and on about a lot of silly and petty things over couples that are simply inlove and happen to be in an IR-coupling.

not all, but A LOT of IR haters act out their hatred due to pretty insecure, pettiness and somewhat resentful attitudes. they, being men or women, seem to feel they have some sort of claim of the person of their culture and of their opposite sex.

but what claim is that? last time i checked, it's more progressive and mature to allow each individual to decide what is best for them. and at the end of the day, when i look at my husband and my daughter, i do not think.. "oh! oh! i married a caucasian man!" or... "oh! oh! my baby is a hapa!" actually, it's OTHERS that constantly remind me this. all i see is the man i love (who's quirks are both annoying and cute at the same time) and my daughter (whom is beautiful to me no matter what her race nor what she looks like).

so i guess i can't really say that you or her are 'not right' for getting annoyed with IR haters more... especially those w/in our race... but i do think that we can objectively state whether the reasons for such a decision is valid or not.

see what i mean? :smile:

on a side note, i totally agree w/ your sentiments towards chairmanmah. i don't think anyone here should be so brave as to speak for the entire asian race.

[BeTheReds]

i'm not saying that to be annoyed with one over the other has a 'right or wrong'. it's more the reasons behind her choice that i'm interested in.

after all, she stated that she could see an IR hater having valid points.

i'm not exactly sure what valid points that might be.


Are you serious? There are plenty of valid points. Simply because your IR is wonderful doesn't mean all IR is wonderful.



By the way, what was the point of this thread again and why was it split from the other IR thread? Was this another subtle informal poll to see who's open to being PM'd by non-Asians?:)

The other IR thread was to show that hapas have differing opinions on IR.

This one is discussing the merits and bad points of IR, or what women think of IR.

[shy]

Are you serious? There are plenty of valid points. Simply because your IR is wonderful doesn't mean all IR is wonderful.

i never said that just because i'm in a good IR relationship, that is the end all and be all. what i simply said that from my PERSONAL experiences and of others that i know, we have not heard any valid points. the only points we have heard are ones that are based on extreme generalizations.

in fact if you have read what i have said in another thread about how i as a woman feel about asiaphiles, i've also been in such an IR relationship with an asiaphile (though at my very, very young age, i just didn't know it then). so I'VE SEEN BOTH SIDES!

so... if there are a lot of valid points, then enlighten me and SPELL THEM OUT! that might be helpful.

anyway... you want an answer???

I AM ALL FOR IR'S! why? because from where i stand, i can't fucking tell if couple A or couple B or whatever IR couple are together for the right reasons and or the wrong reasons.

just as i couldn't tell if ANY couple, even same-race couples, are together for the right or wrong reasons.

see what i mean?

who are we to judge and make such retarded generalizations and make theories of why IR's are wrong?

as a woman, which last i checked, you are not one, i can most definitely say that each couple must be judged at an individual analysis.

simply put though, and to conclude my reply to you, if there are such valid points, my MAIN POINT is... I... HAVE.. NOT... HEARD... OF... ANY! and believe me.. i've heard plenty of them. and on yw.org in general, i honestly have heard both sides and the ones that are against IR's are totally NOT acceptable as valid points. they have no proof nor rational reasoning.

the ONLY one that i might agree w/ is IF an individual ends up with some asiaphile. but that's still up to that person to make such a commitment. he/she, i hope, will eventually learn through experience that their TYPE of IR is just not cool.

but as for me, a person surrouned by so man AF/AM pairing, AND AF/WM pairing, AND MIGHT I ADD WF/AM pairing... none of them seem to fall into the category of what IR haters are looking for in order to prove their point. whatever their point may be.

so i'm not basing this just one MY own 32 years of life experience but that of so many around me.

This one is discussing the merits and bad points of IR, or what women think of IR.

actually, it's more what women think of IR. why do you think it's in the women's forum??? and as you are not a women, it's laughable that you're telling me what i should think.

[kimpossible]

see what i mean? :smile:



mmm, not really because my reasons and experiences are drastically different from yours. but i think as older married women we're probably in a good position to agree on disagreeing without much fuss.

[shy]

mmm, not really because my reasons and experiences are drastically different from yours. but i think as older married women we're probably in a good position to agree on disagreeing without much fuss.

please, then, if you don't mind, explain what your reasons are for not agreeing with me as i don't know your background/experiences that you speak of.

i only ask because while you think we should agree on disagreeing, i honestly didn't think i was disagreeing with you. only just justifyling my reply/question to angryabc's. :confused:

[BeTheReds]

actually, it's more what women think of IR. why do you think it's in the women's forum???
Cuz I put it there.

[kasia]

i see tons of IR relationships that are disgusting. but it has some to do with my profession - i have represented mail order brides, etc.

when i see the dynamics of their relationships, though, it has allowed me to recognize some of the same unhealthiness in IR relationships in other contexts. sometimes the white men are just patronizing when it comes to the asian woman's culture. i see less of it when it's a IR relationship with a white woman & asian man. or when her friends are weird, he'll attribute it in part to them being asian...as opposed to just thinking that they're weird.

what's strange is that the asian women are often oblivious to all of this. do they look up to their white bf because he is a better speaker, more confident, and more cultured than the typical asian male? yes. and it's not just me that sees this. i remember in college when my roommates and i would have to sit through dinners and get-togethers with our friends and their new white bf's and have to put up with the completely ethnocentric behavior. we'd discuss it afterwards, but we never brought it up with our friends b/c they never seemed to notice it.

[deez nuts]

By the way, what was the point of this thread again and why was it split from the other IR thread? Was this another subtle informal poll to see who's open to being PM'd by non-Asians?:)

i thought the point of this thread was, "hey look at me, i was or am in a relationship with a non-asian" thereby allowing some of us to pelt the evil doers with rotten fruits and vegetables.

.what's strange is that the asian women are often oblivious to all of this. do they look up to their white bf because he is a better speaker, more confident, and more cultured than the typical asian male? yes. and it's not just me that sees this.

from my own personal experience, i have yet to meet a nonasian male with an asian female that is better spoken, more confident and more cultured than any of my asian male friends or the so called typical asian male.

[kitty]

Question: are people distinguishing between instances of bad interracial relationships and interracial relationships being bad? I feel like shy is asking for an argument against the existence of IR's -- and while kasia, I'm sure you do see tons of bad IR's in your line of work, and Asiaphilia is certainly a problem when it comes to IR's, I don't see how that should be a rationale for saying that there are good reasons against IR's in general, as it seems BTR is suggesting.

[shy]

Question: are people distinguishing between instances of bad interracial relationships and interracial relationships being bad? I feel like shy is asking for an argument against the existence of IR's -- and while kasia, I'm sure you do see tons of bad IR's in your line of work, and Asiaphilia is certainly a problem when it comes to IR's, I don't see how that should be a rationale for saying that there are good reasons against IR's in general, as it seems BTR is suggesting.

i don't know anymore. it gets confusing for me because whenever we do talk about IR's, it's like walking on eggshells. there's always some one, including me, who gets offended due to some one else's comments, whether intentional or not.

sometimes i wonder if we should all take a break from talking about IR's. not that it's not important, but it just feels like it's all we ever talk about. especially here and in the rant forum (at least it use to be in the rant forum when i frequented it more before).

as for kasia's examples, i could totally see how such a relationship is problematic. but such a problem stems way beyond just IR's in general. the whole mail-order bride thing, for example. it's a way attract to a lot of freaks in general! yeesh! :frown:

[rice cracker]

Just curious/confused a bit: What are the valid points to support approval for IR? Could people come up with a list of pros and cons for such a relationship? Could it even be broken down like that?

I feel the focus of this discussion (if it had a clear one to begin with) has shifted to pro-IR and anti-IR, with people using their personal experiences as testimony to the validity of such relationships. It just seems to be a little skewed, to have people with positive experience in IR doing all the defense of, and people with negative experience attacking it.

Anyway, myself, I'm all about not giving a shit about who people settle down with, I just don't want their stupid relationship coloring what the next person's going to perceive about me.

[kasia]

Question: are people distinguishing between instances of bad interracial relationships and interracial relationships being bad? I feel like shy is asking for an argument against the existence of IR's -- and while kasia, I'm sure you do see tons of bad IR's in your line of work, and Asiaphilia is certainly a problem when it comes to IR's, I don't see how that should be a rationale for saying that there are good reasons against IR's in general, as it seems BTR is suggesting.

no, i don't think that they're in general bad. i don't think BTR is suggesting that either.

i'd reiterate, though, and my post does state this, that outside my job, i have also observed a lot of IR relationships that my friends have been in and, more often than not, have seen white guys act like they're of the superior culture and have made an exception to date a minority. to make it clearer for those who fail to grasp what i have been trying to say in my past few posts in this thread: the guys were pompous. when the guys are white but also immigrants themselves, this attitude is usually nonexistent. i don't know of any black male/asian female IR relationships except for my aunt's husband, and their relationship is just like every other relationship -except for the fact that she adopted his culture much more than he adopted ours. regardless, i never felt like i was trying to make a statement that my personal observations of IR relationships could be generalized to all IR relationships.

[deez nuts]

Just curious/confused a bit: What are the valid points to support approval for IR? Could people come up with a list of pros and cons for such a relationship? Could it even be broken down like that?


the way i look at it, the people that are involved in a happy interracial relationship found someone that they are compatible with in some way or another regardless of it being an interracial relationship.

it's not the fact that they're happy because they're in an interracial relationship. it's just that they're happy in a relationship that happens to be interracial.

it's not absolute. where happiness is an interracial relationship or unhappiness is an interracial relationship.

but, i do find it interesting that those that are happy in an interracial relationship are put into a "fight or flight" frame of mind when it comes to those that are against interracial relationships or even those that voice apprehension and trepidation for interracial relationships.

[kitty]

amen to what CSB said.

kasia, i guess it was my confusion as to what a 'valid point' is on either side of the argument, given this exchange:


i'm not saying that to be annoyed with one over the other has a 'right or wrong'. it's more the reasons behind her choice that i'm interested in.

after all, she stated that she could see an IR hater having valid points.

i'm not exactly sure what valid points that might be.


Are you serious? There are plenty of valid points. Simply because your IR is wonderful doesn't mean all IR is wonderful.


I absolutely don't think there should be a pro-IR and anti-IR stance. It's ridiculous to say that IR relationships are 'better' than any other relationship, and ditto for the other way around. I'm just as sickened by people who tell me 'isn't the meshing of two different skin tones during sex just a beautiful thing?' as people who say 'you should be dating your own kind'.

I think I have to echo CSB's sentiment. The people who try to defend IR's end up in a pro-IR stance because there is such a vocal anti-IR argument out there, that it sort of polarizes the issue (and vice versa). Most of the people in this thread who are in IR's seem to be suggesting that it's really mostly incidental that they are in an IR, and shouldn't be forced to defend themsleves and their relationship, nor should they be put up as the poster children of racial harmony.

[kasia]

amen to what CSB said.

kasia, i guess it was my confusion as to what a 'valid point' is on either side of the argument, given this exchange:



I absolutely don't think there should be a pro-IR and anti-IR stance. It's ridiculous to say that IR relationships are 'better' than any other relationship, and ditto for the other way around. I'm just as sickened by people who tell me 'isn't the meshing of two different skin tones during sex just a beautiful thing?' as people who say 'you should be dating your own kind'.

I think I have to echo CSB's sentiment. The people who try to defend IR's end up in a pro-IR stance because there is such a vocal anti-IR argument out there, that it sort of polarizes the issue (and vice versa). Most of the people in this thread who are in IR's seem to be suggesting that it's really mostly incidental that they are in an IR, and shouldn't be forced to defend themsleves and their relationship, nor should they be put up as the poster children of racial harmony.

i think bessie's first post is very fair. given the fact that we have been the object of fetishization, have we been affected so as to react in a certain way every time we see an IR relationship?

this is not asking us to take a stance. this is asking us how we view those relationships in light of the circumstances.

my answer: (as was stated in my first post) it hasn't affected me much b/c i haven't really seen many cases in which the girl was fetishized. my reaction is rather one of a minority who has faced racial discrimination and can smell it. when my friends date white guys, they are often ones who are insensitive to the asian culture, minority issues, etc.

the way i look at it, the people that are involved in a happy interracial relationship found someone that they are compatible with in some way or another regardless of it being an interracial relationship.

or not.

how can you tell either way?

it could be that they were rejected by asian guys or that the asian guys that they would go for don't find them attractive. sadly, i find this to be true in some cases.

it could be that want to become more assimilated and find that the best way to elevate their social status is to date a white guy. sadly, i find this to be true in many cases involving immigrant girls or high school girls (striving to be popular).

there could be a number of reasons why they are in the IR relationship than just "oh, they found happiness."

[Chester]

i think bessie's first post is very fair. given the fact that we have been the object of fetishization, have we been affected so as to react in a certain way every time we see an IR relationship? I think that's a valid question, but one without an easy answer. I think political awareness conditions one to be immediately suspicious of IRs, but I think this is an unfortunate thing and, to a large extent, hypocritical.

I don't think it's fair to have a mentality that partners in an IR have to assume the burden of proving that their relationship is wholesome and fair and equitable and not founded upon sociopolitical victimization and all that.

And I'm not saying that you, Kasia, or anyone else, in particular, has this mentality. But, in general, I've seen and heard many people make the assumption, upon sight, that, for example, an AF/WM relationship must be a rice-fever proposition. (I'm not trying to awaken that old topic, but it's something that's regularly echoed here and in other places.)

there could be a number of reasons why they are in the IR relationship than just "oh, they found happiness." I'd agree with that, but I think that's something that should be considered when there's reason to consider it. I don't think that the simple matter that a relationship is an IR gives one reason to "evaluate" the relationship with greater scrutiny.

[iris]

amen to what CSB said.

kasia, i guess it was my confusion as to what a 'valid point' is on either side of the argument, given this exchange:



I absolutely don't think there should be a pro-IR and anti-IR stance. It's ridiculous to say that IR relationships are 'better' than any other relationship, and ditto for the other way around. I'm just as sickened by people who tell me 'isn't the meshing of two different skin tones during sex just a beautiful thing?' as people who say 'you should be dating your own kind'.

I think I have to echo CSB's sentiment. The people who try to defend IR's end up in a pro-IR stance because there is such a vocal anti-IR argument out there, that it sort of polarizes the issue (and vice versa). Most of the people in this thread who are in IR's seem to be suggesting that it's really mostly incidental that they are in an IR, and shouldn't be forced to defend themsleves and their relationship, nor should they be put up as the poster children of racial harmony.


I've noticed in this thread most people have pointed out the superiority complex in an IR relationship. I lay the blame solely on the couple in that relationship. Like any other relationship, IR or NON-IR, one partner could dominate the other if that person lets them.

And in all relationships, we as outsiders really don't have a say. We can all agree things like bride-order brides are bad and there will be someone who says "I am a mail-order bride and it's been great." We're debating unviersal truths here and there are none available in societal reality.

Kittygirl is right-on when she states there shouldn't be any pro-IR or anti-IR stance. We as a political awareness forum should know that more than anyone else. It's broad generalization to take and if we as Asians want to be accepted as individuals, then IR couples should be looked at as individual couples. Or here's a wild thought, relationships are personal journeys that don't affect those not connect to them. If a personal friend or couple of yours is involved in a bad relationship IR or Non-IR, as a good friend, use your judgement to let them know of it. Otherwise, trying to educate someone else into your own schema of beliefs is just as bad as forceful assimilation of others into your culture.

I don't defend or condone my relationship because I don't care about any of your opinions on this subject. I respect most of the YWers out there on topics I believe deserves debate but my personal life is not up for one and I'm sure most people feel that way about their private relationships.

[deez nuts]

or not.

how can you tell either way?

it could be that they were rejected by asian guys or that the asian guys that they would go for don't find them attractive. sadly, i find this to be true in some cases.

it could be that want to become more assimilated and find that the best way to elevate their social status is to date a white guy. sadly, i find this to be true in many cases involving immigrant girls or high school girls (striving to be popular).

there could be a number of reasons why they are in the IR relationship than just "oh, they found happiness."

i didn't say it was that simple.

sure there could be a number of reasons good or bad. but, in some cases, it is the case that they've found happiness. like i said previously, it's not an absolute.

edit: and for the record, i don't really approve of IR cuz of my own personal reasons. but, since this is in the women's forum, i will save my reasons for another time.

[kasia]

Kittygirl is right-on when she states there shouldn't be any pro-IR or anti-IR stance.


and i haven't said this before, but i'll ask now: how do we know? how can we know whether or not there should or should not be such positions taken until the issue is explored? and are we not exploring the issue in this thread?

I respect most of the YWers out there on topics I believe deserves debate but my personal life is not up for one and I'm sure most people feel that way about their private relationships.

and i can say for myself that i don't disrespect your relationship. if fact, i never even considered it in making the above statements. nobody is debating your private life - we are debating the greater issue of IR relationships. the mere fact that you happen to be in one does not be that you are the subject of our debate. otherwise, how can any social issue ever be debated?

[SunWuKong]

i would like to add - i don't like Asian guys blasting Asian women for dating non-Asian men, as most of you here probably don't like that either, so i hope i don't sound like one of those guys. but even i have to say that it would be naive to think that the dynamics of interracial relationships in the Asian American community can only be examined in purely an individual, case-by-case, basis. Asian men and Asian women do not face the same sexual stereotypes. and there's statistical difference in the number of Asian women in IRs and the number of Asian men in IRs. i'm not trying to make any accusations or assumptions here, and while we all want our personal lives to be considered something so individualistic that they lie outside of simple demographic trends, to say that is completely true would be wishful thinking.

[VV o n g B a]

gotta agree w/ swk here. if IR wasn't an issue at the societal level, it wouldn't continually get revisited at every political apa site u can find. u can say that what applies to society doesn't apply to u, but no relationship is an island.

-on a side note, it feels like it's been awhile since i've seen so many of the posters i consider "heavy hitters" post on a single topic. and of course the discussion remained civil for the most part... but it also feels a bit like the thread that led to bhodi's abandonment of yw. fundamental differences in perspective that can't be overcome or papered over. hope this doesn't have a similar ending...

[Chester]

while we all want our personal lives to be considered something so individualistic that they lie outside of simple demographic trends, to say that is completely true would be wishful thinking. I'd definitely agree with that...but, to me, extending that statistical knowledge into one's real-life, day-to-day behavior is unfair as it seems as if that would lead to making wholesale pre-judgements.

[SunWuKong]

I'd definitely agree with that...but, to me, extending that statistical knowledge into one's real-life, day-to-day behavior is unfair as it seems as if that would lead to making wholesale pre-judgements.

well, it's like fuzzy logic as opposed to boolean logic here. not that many people are definitely going to only date this type or that type of person - although they do exist. but what can be concluded here is a certain amount of likelihood of behavioural trends depending on what demographic you fit in. generalising is one of the main purpose of statistical knowledge, after all.

[shy]

I think I have to echo CSB's sentiment. The people who try to defend IR's end up in a pro-IR stance because there is such a vocal anti-IR argument out there, that it sort of polarizes the issue (and vice versa). Most of the people in this thread who are in IR's seem to be suggesting that it's really mostly incidental that they are in an IR, and shouldn't be forced to defend themsleves and their relationship, nor should they be put up as the poster children of racial harmony.

yes. that is how i feel a lot of the times. due to the fact that there IS so much anti-IR. and after i pm-ed w/ BTR, him and i came to an understanding that, yes... there ARE certain IR-coupling that is questionable.

however, anytime i do bring up about how not all IR's exist just because the couples aimed at being w/ 'said person of said race', i do feel this great pressure to defend such IR's out there. and no, i'm not saying that every person here that's questions about IR's has forced me to defend myself, but i agree w/ kitty. i think there is more of an anti-IR vibe. here and off of yw.org.

i apologize if i seem so passionate and harsh about it. but i only ask people to think about it for the time being. at the risk of sounding like i'm playing the victim role here, as i am not proud of that, just remember that those in my situation do have to deal with discriminating comments a lot. not just racist comments form non-asians for being asian, but asians who think that i'm a sellout and that my hapa child is a product of some desease.

at the same time, i'd also like to thank the majority for supporting me and sticking up for me.

don't think you guys haven't gone unnoticed. :smile:

I'd definitely agree with that...but, to me, extending that statistical knowledge into one's real-life, day-to-day behavior is unfair as it seems as if that would lead to making wholesale pre-judgements.

and yes - my sentiments exactly.

it's an attitude thing. i rather beat the stats and not have the stats control who i am.

i know such stats are most definitely something to not ignore. but if we are going to talk about difficult and questionable IR-coupling, i suggest that it might be more productive and less confusing if we make the thread way more precise then a vague 'IR topic'.

for exampe, kasia's job experience is definitely worth discussing.

so i suggest that we create a thread that specifically talks about such problems as an IR-coupling that resulted from a mail-order bride situation.

[deez nuts]

correct me if i'm wrong here, i think a lot of the confusion and tension stems from the fact that we aren't talking about your IR per se, but the whole state of IR when it comes to asian women and nonasian men.

though one is free to share their personal experiences whether their experiences be good or bad. it's not your experience with IR that defines the current status of IR's as a whole.

i think if one were to keep this in mind, it will alleviate some of the "tug of war" and eliminate the need to use excruciatingly long disclaimers.

[kasia]

i know such stats are most definitely something to not ignore. but if we are going to talk about difficult and questionable IR-coupling, i suggest that it might be more productive and less confusing if we make the thread way more precise then a vague 'IR topic'.

as stated, people are encouraged to read the first post of each thread before just jumping in without knowledge of what the topic is.

[kimpossible]

and i can say for myself that i don't disrespect your relationship. if fact, i never even considered it in making the above statements. nobody is debating your private life - we are debating the greater issue of IR relationships. the mere fact that you happen to be in one does not be that you are the subject of our debate. otherwise, how can any social issue ever be debated?

Since I'm not the most eloquent person I'm going to cop out and say a combo of what kasia says here with SWK's and Wongba's responses covers a lot of how I look at most Asian American issues: the impact of such issues on the macro societal level. It's the way I can stay involved. Over the years I've come to take discussions about IR relationships, hapas or mixed folks, and talk about 'white people' as a larger issue aimed at community discussion rather than a reflection of myself.

I'll base my input on my personal experience and I'll use examples from my life in an effort to take responsiblity for a point of view rather than risk putting someone else on trial, but the discussion is still community based whether or not we share personal experience. I guess if I had to put it in non Asian American terms, I run into many people who don't like American policies or Americans. While I'm happy to be an American and am not willing to say we do everything wrong, I dislike much of what my government does and how our society functions. I can freely engage with an Australian who dislikes American poliicies without taking it personally as an American citizen.

Essentially, even though I hail from IR relationships both in parentage and as a married adult, I think (for the most part) I detach myself enough from IR talk as a social issue that I don't feel the need to drop into a default pro stance to justify my existence (as in I wouldn't exist if it weren't for IR) or my relationship (I must be pro IR because I'm in one). Perhaps another difference is that because I'm mixed I've dealt with disapproval of IR and 'thin bloodedness' from birth and I've had more time to inure myself to the negatives but that assumes most mixed raced people feel this way and it would be an injustice to them to assume my experience speaks for all of them.

[mrazntre]

excerpt taken

Or here's a wild thought, relationships are personal journeys that don't affect those not connect to them.

I'm not sure whether or not I agree with this statement. There's a bit of confusion to me as I read this statement. First off, it's focal point is the relationship, then it changes to those connected to the relationship. So do you just mean the "bf" and "gf" or do you mean all those connected to the IR? What I see are family members, friends, coworkers, even strangers that can be affected by an IR,Whether or not there is a connection to the IR.

Let me expound.

Family members are affected by an IR (whether it is valid, good or bad, is up to debate. Bottom line, they are affected). Same as friends, etc. Suppose your group of friends are all Asian and you go to an all Asian restaurant or bar, let's say somewhere in koreatown, or any place that the non-Asian person feels a bit out of place. In this instance, perhaps the Asian friends decide on going to a different place that is not predominantly Asian due to the IR. There are some flexibilities due to race and ethnicity. So in this case, the outsider portion of the IR is satisfied. However, what if your friends ignore the obvious and decide to go deeper into koreatown, say karaoke. This action could possibly affect the outsider. So, unless you're only by yourselves as a couple all day, everyday, are orphans, and don't have any friends... you can't tell me that this never happens.

For all intents and purposes friends and family are a part of the relationship, right?

[shy]

as stated, people are encouraged to read the first post of each thread before just jumping in without knowledge of what the topic is.

yes. i did. thank you very much. i read it before i jumped into this disussion. i always do.

and after re-reading it again, i am even more convinced that i think it was loaded, repetitive of what we've already discussed A LOT and feel that it was just asking for another 'IR-haters' v.s. 'those in IR's coupling' discussion. all. over. again.

my reply to kittygirl was not to go against you kasia. in fact, i was just trying to be helpful by being honest in the most civilized manner as i possiblly could.

and believe me...

i've read a lot of things in this thread and in others that's tempted me to NOT be civilized. ;)

[Chester]

well, it's like fuzzy logic as opposed to boolean logic here. not that many people are definitely going to only date this type or that type of person - although they do exist. but what can be concluded here is a certain amount of likelihood of behavioural trends depending on what demographic you fit in. I can see all that, but I'm wondering...what do you do with the realization of that likelihood or statistical probability?

(And that's granting out that one is comfortable with the idea that those "likelihoods" are beyond putative, which I'm not entirely comfortable with.)

I understand the value of keeping these things in mind when examining your own established impulses and behavioral patterns. Or when talking to friends about their own. But...how are you going to employ them when you, for example, meet an IR couple for the first time?

If it's an AF/WM couple, are you going to be initially suspicious of their motives for being together, and, if so, would that be fair? What about an AM/WF couple?
generalising is one of the main purpose of statistical knowledge, after all. And there's a value to that. But, unless there's some compelling reason to approach life actuarially, I think generalizing is dangerously similar to stereotyping. Personally, in terms of this topic, I'd far rather be naively ignorant than be unfairly presumptuous.

[kasia]

yes. i did. thank you very much. i read it before i jumped into this disussion. i always do.

and after re-reading it again, i am even more convinced that i think it was loaded, repetitive of what we've already discussed A LOT and feel that it was just asking for another 'IR-haters' v.s. 'those in IR's coupling' discussion. all. over. again.

my reply to kittygirl was not to go against you kasia. in fact, i was just trying to be helpful by being honest in the most civilized manner as i possiblly could.

and believe me...

i've read a lot of things in this thread and in others that's tempted me to NOT be civilized. ;)

maybe it is heavily discussed in other forums, but i would say, for the most part, we shy away from this topic on YW just because it's overanalyzed.

the topic is here for us to discuss and, for those who don't have any input, simply don't join the discussion. but don't come in here and say, "you guys shouldn't discuss this."

what is wrong with bessie's question about how the fetishization of asian females affects our views towards IR relationships?

[Chester]

what is wrong with bessie's question about how the fetishization of asian females affects our views towards IR relationships? Absolutely nothing. Aside from the emotional touchstones it hits, the whole IR issue keeps coming up because it's an interesting topic, plain and simple.

I don't know about others, but I'm not trying to invalidate the questioning. Once again, I think it's an interesting subject.

But my question is: what do you do with the answers? I'm all for awareness of social trends, but what is one to do with the realization that some or even many IRs are loaded with sociopolitical baggage?

In what real-life scenarios is this realization going to be employed and how so?

[kasia]

Absolutely nothing. Aside from the emotional touchstones it hits, the whole IR issue keeps coming up because it's an interesting topic, plain and simple.

I don't know about others, but I'm not trying to invalidate the questioning. Once again, I think it's an interesting subject.

But my question is: what do you do with the answers? I'm all for awareness of social trends, but what is one to do with the realization that some or even many IRs are loaded with sociopolitical baggage?

In what real-life scenarios is this realization going to be employed and how so?

correct the problem. if there is one. i don't think it would mean the end of all IR relationships. just some. j/k.

[SunWuKong]

I can see all that, but I'm wondering...what do you do with the realization of that likelihood or statistical probability?

(And that's granting out that one is comfortable with the idea that those "likelihoods" are beyond putative, which I'm not entirely comfortable with.)

I understand the value of keeping these things in mind when examining your own established impulses and behavioral patterns. Or when talking to friends about their own. But...how are you going to employ them when you, for example, meet an IR couple for the first time?

If it's an AF/WM couple, are you going to be initially suspicious of their motives for being together, and, if so, would that be fair? What about an AM/WF couple?

i personally don't really care who's dating who. my original point was simply that it would be naive to think that all cases of IRs can be considered in a case-to-case, individual basis. do with the information what you will. like i said, i don't care who's dating who, but i feel more aware of what's going on in the Asian American community that i know about its social trends. and if you don't want to be aware of these things, well you have that choice to make for yourself, too.

real and measurable social trends such as trends in IRs do exist, which means there are similarities in at least a certain percentage of all IRs. it is not all random and individualistic, and if it is, we would see an even distribution across all demographics instead of a disparity, but that is not the case. as such, yes, i do believe you can infer a certain amount of likelihood on the characteristics of IRs.

what i'm talking about is, for example, the Asian American population is 4% of the American population. upon talking to someone on the phone and saying that i'm American, he can infer that there is a 4% chance of likelihood that i am Asian.

And there's a value to that. But, unless there's some compelling reason to approach life actuarially, I think generalizing is dangerously similar to stereotyping. Personally, in terms of this topic, I'd far rather be naively ignorant than be unfairly presumptuous.

there's a huge difference between generalisations and stereotyping, in that the latter is not based on facts but simply skewed representation. i suppose that is another discussion altogether, but i don't see anything wrong with generalisations at all.

[Chester]

real and measurable social trends such as trends in IRs do exist, which means there are similarities in at least a certain percentage of all IRs. it is not all random and individualistic...yes, i do believe you can infer a certain amount of likelihood on the characteristics of IRs. But, then, when would you make these inferences and what would you do with them?

Again...if you met an IR couple for the first time, how would these inferences inform or determine the manner in which you behave toward them? Do you associate the baggage of others to this couple, or do you allow them to show you what they are as individuals?

I see the obvious value in understanding these issues because, if you do encounter, say, an AM friend who is dating a WF just because she's this blond holy grail, despite the fact that she's a shitty girlfriend, then you have the necessary understanding to tell him, in an informed manner, to run, not walk, his ass away from her.

I see the value in that, but I also see the danger of being overly preoccupied by such generalizations and turning them, to some extent, into self-fulfilling expectations.
there's a huge difference between generalisations and stereotyping, in that the latter is not based on facts but simply skewed representation. We've gone over this before so I'm not trying to delve back too deeply, but how would you apply your generalizations and how could you apply them without treating Person D in accordance with the expectations you built up via exposure to Persons A, B, and C?

[SunWuKong]

But, then, when would you make these inferences and what would you do with them?
We've gone over this before so I'm not trying to delve back too deeply, but how would you apply your generalizations and how could you apply them without treating Person D in accordance with the expectations you built up via exposure to Persons A, B, and C?

read my post again. i think i've revised it (the first paragraph) since you replied. but do let me know if that is not the case or if i was not clear enough.

specifically concerning IRs, or for that matter, anybody in any situation, i personally am not going to apply statistical generalisation to what i think of him, beyond maybe thinking something like "he's Chinese, he probably knows how to speak Chinese." but would i speak Chinese to him if he's always been speaking to me in English? no.

[Chester]

read my post again. i think i've revised it (the first paragraph) since you replied. Ha. The dangers of concurrent posting...
but do let me know if that is not the case or if i was not clear enough. I think you're clear and I agree with what you say, fundamentally. But I'm still wondering how you would apply your "aware[ness] of what's going on in the Asian American community" in real-life situations?
specifically concerning IRs, or for that matter, anybody in any situation, i personally am not going to apply statistical generalisation to what i think of him Then, given this, what is the value of the statistical generalization? If you don't use it, what's the point of compiling it?

correct the problem. if there is one. Of course there is. It's the Yellow Peril.

[Back to SWK]
Actually, going back to your whole fuzzy-logic point, I imagine what you're saying is that the awareness just forms your ability to spot the shitty IRs when you see them, which makes perfect sense.

[shy]

maybe it is heavily discussed in other forums, but i would say, for the most part, we shy away from this topic on YW just because it's overanalyzed.

the topic is here for us to discuss and, for those who don't have any input, simply don't join the discussion. but don't come in here and say, "you guys shouldn't discuss this."

what is wrong with bessie's question about how the fetishization of asian females affects our views towards IR relationships?

it IS heavily discussed here. not just other forums.

and i DO have input. that's why i think i have every right to come in here and say my piece. but then some members DID start to show concern over why we're always going on about IR's v.s. non-IR's and so i just decided to explain my thoughts and view, as well as my personal experiences, as to why such discussions are not exactly useful.

and as i already stated, i said that it's not that it's not important to discuss. and i never said 'don't discuss this'. i just was being helpful in trying to illustrate some more effective ways we can go about this route. if you have a problem with me trying to help, then pm me or somehing.