Doesn't Marriage Cure Racism?

[capoeira]

How can you be married to the one you love and still be a biggot against their heritage? Isn't that impossible?! When I was married to my wife (A beautiful brown skinned Filipina) I excepted her for who she was. I never made racist comments about her family members who were shady, nor did I complain about the little quarks she had from her culture, such as leaving her shoes on the porch after coming home from work, or cooking dishes I was unfamiliar with, nor did I mind that she only spoke in tagolog on the phone with her friends or in the presence of my company! Infact, I kicked somebodies ass in my living room, my old friend, who made a racist comment about "chinks" although he was joking. I took the good with the bad because I loved her. I would never hurt or disrespect some one I loved so much. I just don't see how you could be with a "Korean" or an "Arab" and still disrespect their culture. Is that love, or is that some old, "We conquered their people and made off with their women" colonialism mentality? This really got me heated!

:biggrin: Even though I'm not white, I barged in and gave my two cents! :biggrin:

[kitty]

How can you be married to the one you love and still be a biggot against their heritage?

easy. if you exoticize them for their racial/ethnic background...

[Tao]

How can you be married to the one you love and still be a biggot against their heritage? Isn't that impossible?! When I was married to my wife (A beautiful brown skinned Filipina) I excepted her for who she was. I never made racist comments about her family members who were shady, nor did I complain about the little quarks she had from her culture, such as leaving her shoes on the porch after coming home from work, or cooking dishes I was unfamiliar with, nor did I mind that she only spoke in tagolog on the phone with her friends or in the presence of my company! Infact, I kicked somebodies ass in my living room, my old friend, who made a racist comment about "chinks" although he was joking. I took the good with the bad because I loved her. I would never hurt or disrespect some one I loved so much. I just don't see how you could be with a "Korean" or an "Arab" and still disrespect their culture. Is that love, or is that some old, "We conquered their people and made off with their women" colonialism mentality? This really got me heated!

:biggrin: Even though I'm not white, I barged in and gave my two cents! :biggrin:

yeah, it's upsetting how sometimes that can happen. usually these relationships are based on dominance and racism from one partner and shame and denial of the other partner.
from my experiences, this is pretty rare, but it doesn't mean the ones that you do see isn't disturbing.

[capoeira]

easy. if you exoticize them for their racial/ethnic background...
Forgive me if I'm taking this topic on a slight tangent, but, say for instance if I'm attracted to a female, and she is asian. How do I not fall into the asiaphile category? If I happen to find an asian female that's beautiful, and we share the same interests and are connecting, and I'm interested in learning more about her culture and I'm sincere, I don't see how in the hell I can disrespect her by saying shitty stuff about her culture! I just don't get it? If I fell in married a Chinese girl, and on the way home from work I speak all manner of racial slurs against every asian I encounter, and then go home and snuggle with my chinese wife, not only does that makes me a hypocrite and an out right asshole, I don't even see how I could do that! I can't reach down and just pull that out! Maybe I'm just built different!

In my opinion, people who do this don't love their mate, they only dominate or control them. How can you love somebody who disrespects who and what you are? If me and my wife are watching the news and she utters out, "Stupid fuckin' niggers! At least you're not like them honey," I'd be overwhelmed by hurt. And then anger! But that's just me, no disrespect, and again sorry if I went off topic. :smile:

[achtungbaby]

Gonna split capoeira's question/comments into another thread because it just might be timely:)

Moving to Rant. And please, let's try and keep the focus of this thread pretty specific. We're talking about whether you can be a bigot or racist towards your spouse or someone you 'love'...


How can you be married to the one you love and still be a biggot against their heritage? Isn't that impossible?! When I was married to my wife (A beautiful brown skinned Filipina) I excepted her for who she was. I never made racist comments about her family members who were shady, nor did I complain about the little quarks she had from her culture, such as leaving her shoes on the porch after coming home from work, or cooking dishes I was unfamiliar with, nor did I mind that she only spoke in tagolog on the phone with her friends or in the presence of my company!...I took the good with the bad because I loved her. I would never hurt or disrespect some one I loved so much.
Before commenting on the other stuff, I'm assuming the stuff you mentioned above was more the "bad" or at the very least, less than favorable...?

[nonamerasian]

My grandmother allegedly never looked at another guy other than my grandfather, yet despised his Blackness. She hated elements of the culture, patois, skintone...And yet gave up her family and way of life to be with him.

My aunt married a man who, although not as blunt, seemed to have a superior attitude towards Blacks and the two never strayed.

It's odd, but it happens.

[rice cracker]

Even racists make exceptions, I guess. Just because you're not hurling abuses at them doesn't mean you're not fetishizing them for their culture, which is still racist. Racial superiority, quasi-anthropological interest, sexual stereotypes, ect. all fall under the racist umbrella. Love ain't color blind, and people do get married for the wrong reasons.

[capoeira]

Gonna split capoeira's question/comments into another thread because it just might be timely:)

Moving to Rant. And please, let's try and keep the focus of this thread pretty specific. We're talking about whether you can be a bigot or racist towards your spouse or someone you 'love'...



Before commenting on the other stuff, I'm assuming the stuff you mentioned above was more the "bad" or at the very least, less than favorable...?

Not all of that was bad, It's all mixed up! I was typing as fast as I could so I wouldn't lose my train of thought.

The shady relatives was bad! It made me uncomfortable whenever I visited and vice versa.

The shoes thing wasn't bad, It's just that I never really was exposed to that before, but I use to do it!

Now the food, ah yes the food! I use to be very skepticle of trying new dishes, but I never threw plates against the wall or made stupid racist comments. She got fed up with me and said look, if you don't like what I cook, then you don't eat. That ended that, since I can't cook and I'll be damned if I blow money on food every night. Now, my favorite dish is bangus, and adobo!

The tagolog part got under my skin only because I didn't know what she was talking about with her friends, and she use to curse me with it when she got mad! Now that was what pissed me off the most. But now I speak it semi fluently.....I'm lying, just a little bit. :frown:

Mahal Kita!

[bboy]

Mail-order brides anyone!

[>:^|]

I don't know why anybody would assume marriage would cure racism. It's kind of like the Black friend argument.

By the way, I have a Black friend, so don't accuse me of being racist. I have a White friend too. Do I need any other colors?

[achtungbaby]

I don't know why anybody would assume marriage would cure racism. It's kind of like the Black friend argument.
Okay, perhaps cure is the wrong word. The line of reasoning would argue that the mere existence of marriage or love between two people is proof that no deeply rooted racism exists, since racism is the opposite of love.

[537]

The shady relatives was bad! It made me uncomfortable whenever I visited and vice versa.

Shady? So are you saying her relatives are Filipino, and therefore are shady?

Shady/Dodgy people, no matter their heritage, are people to avoid entirely. I don't see the correlation between their ethnicity and the fact that they are shady.

Now the food, ah yes the food! I use to be very skepticle of trying new dishes, but I never threw plates against the wall or made stupid racist comments.

What, do you want a freakin cookie or something for not throwing plates against the wall and not making racist comments?

The tagolog part got under my skin only because I didn't know what she was talking about with her friends, and she use to curse me with it when she got mad! Now that was what pissed me off the most. But now I speak it semi fluently.....I'm lying, just a little bit. :frown:

It's spelled 'tagalog'. When referring to one's language as getting under your skin, I do think that subtly wanders under the racist umbrella. While I am not calling you racist per se, seeing as how I do not know you, I am calling it like I see it.

[capoeira]

Damn it, that did it!

First off, I did not name this thread! It was broken off from another thread by a moderator!

Second of all, did I fucking say they were shady because they were Filipino? No, they were shady because they would ask for money and then talk shit behind my back!

I had to get use to asian dishes, so what? I did not force her to make strictly american dishes or black eye peas! She made what ever she wanted!

And yes, it bothered me when she use to talk tagolog (I don't know how to spell it) not becuase I hated it, but because I could not understand what she was saying with her friends and on the phone! How dare you even try to even hint that I'm racist against her? The things Imentioned were not racial motivated at all!

Not all of that was bad, It's all mixed up! I was typing as fast as I could so I wouldn't lose my train of thought.

The shady relatives was bad! It made me uncomfortable whenever I visited and vice versa.

! ^^^where in that quote does it say "because they are filipino?!! Huh?!! where!!! People like to assume things!


The tagolog part got under my skin only because I didn't know what she was talking about with her friends, and she use to curse me with it when she got mad! Now that was what pissed me off the most. But now I speak it semi fluently.....I'm lying, just a little bit. :frown:

It clearly says "The tagolog part got under my skin BECAUSE I DIDNT KNOW WHAT SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT WITH HER FRIENDS.......not knowing what was going on pissed me off, not the language itself! That's why I learned it, so I can know what's going on!

This thread was apart of another thread, that might explain some of the confusion!

[achtungbaby]

And please, let's try and keep the focus of this thread pretty specific. We're talking about whether you can be a bigot or racist towards your spouse or someone you 'love'...

[Mo'Taka]

Didn't the movie Monster's Ball explore this? There is such a thing as racist love you know. If someone marries someone of another ethnicity but still hold hostilities towards the other gender of that ethnicity, that makes him/her a discriminating racist.

[537]

Second of all, did I fucking say they were shady because they were Filipino? No, they were shady because they would ask for money and then talk shit behind my back!

No, you didn't say they were shady because they were Filipino, but you did mention not making racist comments in regards to them being shady. I was asking for clarification. But in your own words:

I never made racist comments about her family members who were shady

Where exactly is the relation of 'racist comments' to her family members who were shady? If someone is shady, they're shady. Racist comments are irrelevant. You brought it up, not me.

And yes, it bothered me when she use to talk tagolog (I don't know how to spell it) not becuase I hated it, but because I could not understand what she was saying with her friends and on the phone! How dare you even try to even hint that I'm racist against her? The things Imentioned were not racial motivated at all!

Then I suggest that in the future, you not refer to 'tagalog' getting under your skin. Once again, clarification that the issue getting under your skin was that she was talking shit about you in front of her friends would be enough.

^^^where in that quote does it say "because they are filipino?!! Huh?!! where!!! People like to assume things!

Just calling it the way it looks. If you don't wish to appear as such, then I advise you to choose what you say wisely.

It clearly says "The tagolog part got under my skin BECAUSE I DIDNT KNOW WHAT SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT WITH HER FRIENDS.......not knowing what was going on pissed me off, not the language itself! That's why I learned it, so I can know what's going on!

Like I said before, then it isn't the tagalog getting under your skin. It was your wife talking shit about you, correct? You make it seem as if the language itself is what was upsetting you.

[kasia]

How can you be married to the one you love and still be a biggot against their heritage? Isn't that impossible?! When I was married to my wife (A beautiful brown skinned Filipina) I excepted her for who she was.

maybe i don't have a justifiable reason as to why - or maybe another member can articulate it for me, but i think it's semi-racist that you said "beautiful brown skinned." i would get similarly annoyed if my exes said they dated a "beautiful yellow-skinned chinese girl."

[kimpossible]

This thread was apart of another thread, that might explain some of the confusion!

You're not going to like this, but I don't think there was any confusion. Not everyone is comfortable with what you said.

[AngryABCGirl]

maybe i don't have a justifiable reason as to why - or maybe another member can articulate it for me, but i think it's semi-racist that you said "beautiful brown skinned." i would get similarly annoyed if my exes said they dated a "beautiful yellow-skinned chinese girl."

It's exotifying and de-humanizing, and unfortunately it's something a lot of sickos say about their fetish for Asian women. That in turn, makes us very uncomfortable and offended.

[SunWuKong]

Not all of that was bad, It's all mixed up! I was typing as fast as I could so I wouldn't lose my train of thought.

The shady relatives was bad! It made me uncomfortable whenever I visited and vice versa.

The shoes thing wasn't bad, It's just that I never really was exposed to that before, but I use to do it!

Now the food, ah yes the food! I use to be very skepticle of trying new dishes, but I never threw plates against the wall or made stupid racist comments. She got fed up with me and said look, if you don't like what I cook, then you don't eat. That ended that, since I can't cook and I'll be damned if I blow money on food every night. Now, my favorite dish is bangus, and adobo!

The tagolog part got under my skin only because I didn't know what she was talking about with her friends, and she use to curse me with it when she got mad! Now that was what pissed me off the most. But now I speak it semi fluently.....I'm lying, just a little bit. :frown:

Mahal Kita!

oh. god. :rolleyes:

so basically you were ready to bang her but not ready to live her culture.

[BeTheReds]

oh. god. :rolleyes:

so basically you were ready to bang her but not ready to live her culture.


In the sense of the people using the ethnicity of their spouse to disprove their racism, that defense is weak and tired.

I'm not sure that's what Cap is doing here, and I think everyone should just get off his back.

Then again, Cap, why are you so eager to tell us about your former marriage? Why are you trying to prove how racist you aren't? No one assumed you were until you tried to show how unbiggoted you are.

I think your contributions to discussion are valuable, but I don't see why you felt the need to go off topic in a thread about racism and how it affects hapas just to defend your previous IR.

[nonamerasian]

maybe i don't have a justifiable reason as to why - or maybe another member can articulate it for me, but i think it's semi-racist that you said "beautiful brown skinned." i would get similarly annoyed if my exes said they dated a "beautiful yellow-skinned chinese girl."

Isn't it like when people say a handsome blonde or whatever?

[mrazntre]

Isn't it like when people say a handsome blonde or whatever?

I've seen asian girls, black girls, latina girls, persian girls, blah blah blah blah girls with blonde hair. Same for asian d00ds.

[PropellerheadCP]

I have my own opinion of what's going on, but I'm going to keep my bias to myself.

Anyway, the forum is for discussion and not for 1 person to defend himself against all other members. What I hate about these forums, sometimes, is the mob mentality.

That stated, I don't think, capoeira, that you should focus so much on defending yourself. Instead, take a few hits to try to figure out why people are being more and more hostile, as the thread progresses. I'm sorry to state that you did start this thread, which is based on a tired and over-discussed topic. That makes you a target for hostility, whether or not you're Asian.

Personally, I think that's one of the many things that never happens, in these forums. For a person who brings up such topics to actually open up his/her mind and learn about why people are reacting the way that they do. Instead, the person is always defending his/her intentions, while others try to rip them apart.

Racism exists in everyone... some more than others. The important thing is to recognize this and make an honest attempt in ridding one's self of such illogical thoughts, based on other people's physical appearances.

[mrazntre]

How can you be married to the one you love and still be a biggot against their heritage? Isn't that impossible?! When I was married to my wife (A beautiful brown skinned Filipina) I excepted her for who she was.....



So basically what you're saying is that even though you don't like Filipino people, you took exception to your ex-wife although she was filipina??

[kasia]

Isn't it like when people say a handsome blonde or whatever?

somehow i think commenting on someone's skin color is different from commenting on their hair color.

So basically what you're saying is that even though you don't like Filipino people, you took exception to your ex-wife although she was filipina??

oh, c'mon. you know that he meant 'accepted'. =p

i don't think the vast of us are tearing apart capoeira as some of you seem to imply. the statements made sound like true criticisms of his first post - criticisms made because what he said made us uncomfortable, not because we simply felt a need to pick on him. he asked a question - whether marriage cures racism (or something to that effect) and we're giving our answers.

[mrazntre]

somehow i think commenting on someone's skin color is different from commenting on their hair color.

I think that there is an instant word association with those kinds of "phrases." And since there have been racial slurs by the same "phrases" it is somewhat taboo. It has only become a phrase of empowerment recently with the 60's civil rights movements (most notably "black power" and in turn "brown pride," etc.) BUT in the same breath you also have neo-Nazi groups claiming "white pride," and we all know what those people do (reference: American History X). Yellow pride or yellow power is something that I haven't really heard because I think the phrase goes "asian pride." I don't need to even say yellow peril do I?

[nonamerasian]

somehow i think commenting on someone's skin color is different from commenting on their hair color.

Iono.

Context counts and so Cap may need to explain his, but many times hue is commented as eye color is.

Nothing necessarily racist about.

[kasia]

Iono.

Context counts and so Cap may need to explain his, but many times hue is commented as eye color is.

Nothing necessarily racist about.

it could be a difference in culture. some things seem to indicate that black people are comfortable with commenting on one's skin (e.g., the song, 'brown sugar')

in asian cultures, that is more taboo. especially if you're commenting that a person has darker skin. and, as other asian female members have indicated (both in this thread and off - i've received complaints), we believe the phrase objectifies us. keep in mind, even though hue may be commented on in different contexts, the context in which he chose to use it was, "i was married to a brown-skinned beauty," or something along those lines. that's hardly the same as, "my wife happened to have darker skin."

[mrazntre]

Iono.

Context counts and so Cap may need to explain his, but many times hue is commented as eye color is.

Nothing necessarily racist about.

well.. if you say "brown eyed" person.. that could be ANYONE....

[PropellerheadCP]

i don't think the vast of us are tearing apart capoeira as some of you seem to imply. the statements made sound like true criticisms of his first post - criticisms made because what he said made us uncomfortable, not because we simply felt a need to pick on him. he asked a question - whether marriage cures racism (or something to that effect) and we're giving our answers.

From what I saw on this thread, I'm not sure about that. The reactions are real and yes, capoeira's statements made me uncomfortable, also. However, the reactions to his posts are also quite hostile and the negativity is feeding itself. I find it very interesting that you don't think so.

[nonamerasian]

Precisely, mrazntre. Probably the reason why describing hue is common.

I wasn't aware of the cultural difference on the mentioning of tones, Kasia.

[capoeira]

LOL at this thread, it just went all over the place! But I'm not going to give up! I'm going to make y'all understand!!!!!!!!!!

from the top! I did not name the title of this thread! It was broken off of a previous thread about racist family members. that's why my comments talk about race, because it was a topic in the original thread.

I stand by my beliefs! I THINK IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BE A RACIST AND LOVE THE PERSON APART OF A RACE YOU'RE RACIST AGAINST!

I refuse to believe that love makes it okay for you're lover to get away with racist remarks against your own heritage and culture! How can a person who is married to an asian woman be racist against asians? How?!!!! I don't understand it, how can the other person just lie down and chuckle off racist remarks about who you are and still claim to love you? I just can't fathom someone hating white people and being in an interacial marriage with one. It doesn't make since.

Now, about Estrella. So what if I discribed her skin color, her skin was golden brown, so what? I don't care if she was korean or anglo saxon, as long as she was the same person inside, who cares what complexion, hieght, or what color her eyes is! If she was creamy yellow, or fair skinned, i would have typed that too1 No big deal!

Now, about the shady family part. Forget they are filipino for a second. Lets say they were african american, or hell, even pink with yellow polka-dots! They use to always ask to borrow money or ask for favors and be all friendly in my face, but behind my back talk shit. Hmmm, now that sounds shady to me! Is this a broad sweeping generalization about all filipinos?!! Hell no! But It is a broad sweeping fact about her family members, like it or not!

And about the tagalog thing. The only thing that annoyed me was NOT THE LANGUAGE AT ALL WHATSOEVER!!!!! NOR WAS IT HER TALKING TO HER FRIENDS!!!!!! BUT WHAT WAS SO ANNOYING WAS THAT I DID NOT KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON WHEN EVERYONE IN MY HOUSE WAS HAVING FUN AND I DID NOT KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON!!!! DOES THAT MEAN I HATE TAGALOG?!!! NO!!!! I JUST WANTED TO LEARN IT SO I CAN OPEN UP TO MORE PEOPLE AND GET RID OF THE ANNOYING LANGUAGE BARRIER WHICH LIMITED MY OVER ALL WELL ROUNDEDNESS!

Who else had something slick to say about me? oh yeah!!! I was ready to bang her but not live her culture?!!!! You fools! I practically converted to her culture!!!!! I left my country to live in Guam and left my family behind! I learned her language and even gave her family money and on top of this, I let her sister, who was on drugs, stay with us for six months despite the inconvience and even paid for her G.E.D. and ministered to her and helped her get her shit together while the rest of her family gave up on her! Yep, I'm the bad guy! But it's all good! Y'all can hate on me all y'all want! I'm not perfect, but I'll tell you what, I believe that I have touched more then a few lives in my travels and I'm so thankful for all of the experiences I've had, good and bad.

[kasia]

From what I saw on this thread, I'm not sure about that. The reactions are real and yes, capoeira's statements made me uncomfortable, also. However, the reactions to his posts are also quite hostile and the negativity is feeding itself. I find it very interesting that you don't think so.

this is the internet, so remember that people may have different interpretations of what is posted. try reading a post in an angry voice, then go back and do it in a happy one. you'll see what i mean. i reread all of the posts, and can honestly say that only two or three from the entire 3 pages were directed towards capoeira. (and of those, i would say one was negative.) the rest weren't even in reference to him - they were just answers to the question posed.

LOL at this thread, it just went all over the place! But I'm not going to give up! I'm going to make y'all understand!!!!!!!!!!

from the top! I did not name the title of this thread! It was broken off of a previous thread about racist family members. that's why my comments talk about race, because it was a topic in the original thread.

I stand by my beliefs! I THINK IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BE A RACIST AND LOVE THE PERSON APART OF A RACE YOU'RE RACIST AGAINST!

I refuse to believe that love makes it okay for you're lover to get away with racist remarks against your own heritage and culture! How can a person who is married to an asian woman be racist against asians? How?!!!! I don't understand it, how can the other person just lie down and chuckle off racist remarks about who you are and still claim to love you? I just can't fathom someone hating white people and being in an interacial marriage with one. It doesn't make since.

Now, about Estrella. So what if I discribed her skin color, her skin was golden brown, so what? I don't care if she was korean or anglo saxon, as long as she was the same person inside, who cares what complexion, hieght, or what color her eyes is! If she was creamy yellow, or fair skinned, i would have typed that too1 No big deal!

Now, about the shady family part. Forget they are filipino for a second. Lets say they were african american, or hell, even pink with yellow polka-dots! They use to always ask to borrow money or ask for favors and be all friendly in my face, but behind my back talk shit. Hmmm, now that sounds shady to me! Is this a broad sweeping generalization about all filipinos?!! Hell no! But It is a broad sweeping fact about her family members, like it or not!

And about the tagalog thing. The only thing that annoyed me was NOT THE LANGUAGE AT ALL WHATSOEVER!!!!! NOR WAS IT HER TALKING TO HER FRIENDS!!!!!! BUT WHAT WAS SO ANNOYING WAS THAT I DID NOT KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON WHEN EVERYONE IN MY HOUSE WAS HAVING FUN AND I DID NOT KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON!!!! DOES THAT MEAN I HATE TAGALOG?!!! NO!!!! I JUST WANTED TO LEARN IT SO I CAN OPEN UP TO MORE PEOPLE AND GET RID OF THE ANNOYING LANGUAGE BARRIER WHICH LIMITED MY OVER ALL WELL ROUNDEDNESS!

Who else had something slick to say about me? oh yeah!!! I was ready to bang her but not live her culture?!!!! You fools! I practically converted to her culture!!!!! I left my country to live in Guam and left my family behind! I learned her language and even gave her family money and on top of this, I let her sister, who was on drugs, stay with us for six months despite the inconvience and even paid for her G.E.D. and ministered to her and helped her get her shit together while the rest of her family gave up on her! Yep, I'm the bad guy! But it's all good! Y'all can hate on me all y'all want! I'm not perfect, but I'll tell you what, I believe that I have touched more then a few lives in my travels and I'm so thankful for all of the experiences I've had, good and bad.

i'm sure thomas jefferson loved some of the slaves he slept with.

i was going to cite to the world of suzie wong, but was skeptical that you would be able to relate to that (as many of us do.)

[mrazntre]

Precisely, mrazntre. Probably the reason why describing hue is common.

I wasn't aware of the cultural difference on the mentioning of tones, Kasia.

precisely, nonamerasian. By describing hues you also get into the habit of stereotyping via color. Something that is extremely prevalent in society today. It not only damages US as a whole, but strengthens those who oppose minorities in being able to lump us into "colors," rather than people. It's another form of dehumanization, like we're cattle...

[rice cracker]

Maybe you just have different ideas about what is racist and what isn't.


BACK ON THE ACTUAL TOPIC AND NOT CAP'S LIFE EXPERIENCES, BE THEY WHAT THEY MAY:

How can a person love someone of another color and still be racist? I would say that first it takes all kinds to make up the world. Exceptions are made, "love" can be a misnomer for lust, and there are all forms of racism, not just to some klansman degree. You can "love" someone and see them as apart from their race because you got to know them, but still ridicule every other member of that race because you're still ignorant. I see it more as embracing an individual, not their culture.

[mrazntre]

milk of magnesia.. look at that white godess...

my first gf was a black skinned freAAAAk...

[PropellerheadCP]

LOL at this thread, it just went all over the place! But I'm not going to give up! I'm going to make y'all understand!!!!!!!!!!

from the top! I did not name the title of this thread! It was broken off of a previous thread about racist family members. that's why my comments talk about race, because it was a topic in the original thread.

I stand by my beliefs! I THINK IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BE A RACIST AND LOVE THE PERSON APART OF A RACE YOU'RE RACIST AGAINST!

I refuse to believe that love makes it okay for you're lover to get away with racist remarks against your own heritage and culture! How can a person who is married to an asian woman be racist against asians? How?!!!! I don't understand it, how can the other person just lie down and chuckle off racist remarks about who you are and still claim to love you? I just can't fathom someone hating white people and being in an interacial marriage with one. It doesn't make since.

Now, about Estrella. So what if I discribed her skin color, her skin was golden brown, so what? I don't care if she was korean or anglo saxon, as long as she was the same person inside, who cares what complexion, hieght, or what color her eyes is! If she was creamy yellow, or fair skinned, i would have typed that too1 No big deal!

Now, about the shady family part. Forget they are filipino for a second. Lets say they were african american, or hell, even pink with yellow polka-dots! They use to always ask to borrow money or ask for favors and be all friendly in my face, but behind my back talk shit. Hmmm, now that sounds shady to me! Is this a broad sweeping generalization about all filipinos?!! Hell no! But It is a broad sweeping fact about her family members, like it or not!

And about the tagalog thing. The only thing that annoyed me was NOT THE LANGUAGE AT ALL WHATSOEVER!!!!! NOR WAS IT HER TALKING TO HER FRIENDS!!!!!! BUT WHAT WAS SO ANNOYING WAS THAT I DID NOT KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON WHEN EVERYONE IN MY HOUSE WAS HAVING FUN AND I DID NOT KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON!!!! DOES THAT MEAN I HATE TAGALOG?!!! NO!!!! I JUST WANTED TO LEARN IT SO I CAN OPEN UP TO MORE PEOPLE AND GET RID OF THE ANNOYING LANGUAGE BARRIER WHICH LIMITED MY OVER ALL WELL ROUNDEDNESS!

Who else had something slick to say about me? oh yeah!!! I was ready to bang her but not live her culture?!!!! You fools! I practically converted to her culture!!!!! I left my country to live in Guam and left my family behind! I learned her language and even gave her family money and on top of this, I let her sister, who was on drugs, stay with us for six months despite the inconvience and even paid for her G.E.D. and ministered to her and helped her get her shit together while the rest of her family gave up on her! Yep, I'm the bad guy! But it's all good! Y'all can hate on me all y'all want! I'm not perfect, but I'll tell you what, I believe that I have touched more then a few lives in my travels and I'm so thankful for all of the experiences I've had, good and bad.

What's the point of starting a thread, in a forum, when you're not opening yourself to other ways of thinking? People have their opinions, but you threw something out for discussion.

[capoeira]

I really don't understand why this is so hard understand. Can someone explain what all of the anger is about? Why are people getting such a negative interpretation? If I say:

i went to the movies with my Filipino friends.

Would people get mad and post: Oh, so do you want a cookie? What, were your black friends busy?!

Why is everybody on a witch hunt? And that tbomas jefferson remark makes it all clear. Are you mad that a black man and an asian woman hooked up? What's the bottom line here? I struck a nerve somewhere.

What the hell does thomas jefferson and slaves have to do with anything? Are you trying to get me mad or something, because I could care less about thomas jefferson.

[PropellerheadCP]

this is the internet, so remember that people may have different interpretations of what is posted. try reading a post in an angry voice, then go back and do it in a happy one. you'll see what i mean. i reread all of the posts, and can honestly say that only two or three from the entire 3 pages were directed towards capoeira. (and of those, i would say one was negative.) the rest weren't even in reference to him - they were just answers to the question posed.

Point taken. It's a matter of opinion, I suppose.

[SunWuKong]

Are you mad that a black man and an asian woman hooked up? What's the bottom line here? I struck a nerve somewhere.

oh god. from now on i'm calling this "The Ras Syndrome".

i'm not reading this thread anymore or else i'll post something i'll regret.

[kuilong]

If I say:

i went to the movies with my Filipino friends.

Would people get mad and post: Oh, so do you want a cookie? What, were your black friends busy?!

I think one thing some people were taking offense to was that you mentioned "shady relatives" as if they were one of the things that came along with a marriage to a Filipina.

That said, I think everyone should just assume good faith and go with the most friendly reading for everyone's posts.

[kasia]

I really don't understand why this is so hard understand. Can someone explain what all of the anger is about? Why are people getting such a negative interpretation? If I say:

i went to the movies with my Filipino friends.

Would people get mad and post: Oh, so do you want a cookie? What, were your black friends busy?!

Why is everybody on a witch hunt? And that tbomas jefferson remark makes it all clear. Are you mad that a black man and an asian woman hooked up? What's the bottom line here? I struck a nerve somewhere.

What the hell does thomas jefferson and slaves have to do with anything? Are you trying to get me mad or something, because I could care less about thomas jefferson.


well, i'll try to spell it out rather than use examples. but a man can be with a woman of a different color - even marry her - but still believe that she is not entitled to the same right that he and the people of his color are entitled to. surely, then, the question really is whether or not he truly loves her.

even if there is love, racism can still exist, though. he can love her, but at the same time refuse to accept her culture or ethnicity. similarly, he can tolerate it, but may not fully accept it. further, he may accept it, but only if he can exotify it.

this is not to say that you did any of those things in your marriage. i am simply responding to the question posed. whether you truly loved your wife and whether you are racist, frankly, is of no interest to me.


of course people are not going to get mad that you went to the movies with filipino friends or that you have filipino friends. why would they? if you checked out the demographics on this board, a lot of our members are hapas. to disapprove of IR interaction, for them, would be to disapprove of their parent's marriage. that isn't what people are disturbed about.

what is annoying, however, is that you feel the need to point out that you had a filipina wife and now have filipina friends and so on. who cares? it seems like, in doing so, you're categorizing us as a group of people who will only associate with people who have other asian friends or are otherwise tied to the asian community. it reminds us of the numerous times that we've met nonasians at bars who feel a need to tell us exactly what asian restaurants they've been to and what asian foods they like to eat. stop categorizing us.

[capoeira]

precisely, nonamerasian. By describing hues you also get into the habit of stereotyping via color. Something that is extremely prevalent in society today. It not only damages US as a whole, but strengthens those who oppose minorities in being able to lump us into "colors," rather than people. It's another form of dehumanization, like we're cattle...

The only reason I mentioned her HUE was because I guess I'm use to describing black girls who come in different hues, or shades. It's a habit. A person's hue doesn't make them less or more of a person, nor did I use it in a context of trying to divide a people in some sort of universal domination thingy or whatever. This is getting interesting so i think I'll just sit back and read replies..... :cool:

[mrazntre]

At work we call it "sensitivity training."

[capoeira]

well, i'll try to spell it out rather than use examples. but a man can be with a woman of a different color - even marry her - but still believe that she is not entitled to the same right that he and the people of his color are entitled to. surely, then, the question really is whether or not he truly loves her.

even if there is love, racism can still exist, though. he can love her, but at the same time refuse to accept her culture or ethnicity. similarly, he can tolerate it, but may not fully accept it. further, he may accept it, but only if he can exotify it.

this is not to say that you did any of those things in your marriage. i am simply responding to the question posed. whether you truly loved your wife and whether you are racist, frankly, is of no interest to me.

gotcha! Now I understand! Thanks.

[rice cracker]

Ahem. Some people have been responding seriously the whole time, with actual feedback related to the issue.

[capoeira]

Ahem. Some people have been responding seriously the whole time, with actual feedback related to the issue.
Thank you too.

what is annoying, however, is that you feel the need to point out that you had a filipina wife and now have filipina friends and so on. who cares? it seems like, in doing so, you're categorizing us as a group of people who will only associate with people who have other asian friends or are otherwise tied to the asian community. it reminds us of the numerous times that we've met nonasians at bars who feel a need to tell us exactly what asian restaurants they've been to and what asian foods they like to eat. stop categorizing us. That explains it! Why didn't somebody tell me i was being a jerk?! :biggrin:

[mrazntre]

So were you being a jerk intentionally? or is that just how you act normally?

Are you still confused? because I am.

[PropellerheadCP]

Thank you too.

That explains it! Why didn't somebody tell me i was being a jerk?! :biggrin:

I believe that a lot of people were... and I believe that you're smart enough to have figured it out, since page 1.

[Kuchana]

In the sense of the people using the ethnicity of their spouse to disprove their racism, that defense is weak and tired.

I'm not sure that's what Cap is doing here, and I think everyone should just get off his back.

Then again, Cap, why are you so eager to tell us about your former marriage? Why are you trying to prove how racist you aren't? No one assumed you were until you tried to show how unbiggoted you are.

I think your contributions to discussion are valuable, but I don't see why you felt the need to go off topic in a thread about racism and how it affects hapas just to defend your previous IR.

I agree. Let's all be civilized and try to look at it from an objective point of view without automatically pegging cap as a racist or what not. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for now.

I'm venturing a guess that since this site is for Asians primarily, Cap might have felt a little defensive (I wouldn't blame him) and wanted to post something to test the waters; in this regard his relationship with his ex wife, thinking that it might have some merit for discussion.

But Cap; a word of advice. Quit defending yourself so much. Plus you gotta have a little more discretion with the humor usage. At certain times I think it's inappropriate, especially if some people may not act positively towards it. Just a helpful suggestion :smile:

Back on topic, I don't think it's possible for marriage to cure racism. As some have pointed out, one can love another person as an individual but it doesn't mean that racism is disspelled because of that union.

Maybe you just have different ideas about what is racist and what isn't.


BACK ON THE ACTUAL TOPIC AND NOT CAP'S LIFE EXPERIENCES, BE THEY WHAT THEY MAY:

How can a person love someone of another color and still be racist? I would say that first it takes all kinds to make up the world. Exceptions are made, "love" can be a misnomer for lust, and there are all forms of racism, not just to some klansman degree. You can "love" someone and see them as apart from their race because you got to know them, but still ridicule every other member of that race because you're still ignorant. I see it more as embracing an individual, not their culture.

If that's true, how can you love someone for who they are even if you hate how they look or what their culture represents? Contradictory I think.

[mrazntre]

It's like what Chris Rock said in Bigger and Blacker

[kitty]

Forgive me if I'm taking this topic on a slight tangent, but, say for instance if I'm attracted to a female, and she is asian. How do I not fall into the asiaphile category?

Consider 'Asiaphile' in two lights: self-identification and outward perception (true of any identity), which usually struggle to find an identity. On the one hand, identity is all about how you perceive yourself, and if you think you are falling for a woman, who is incidentally asian, and it has nothing to do with her ethnicity, than perhaps you do not identify as an Asiaphile.

However, Asiaphilia is also heavily based upon outward perception, especially because you will be less objective, usually, than other people. And, frankly (and this is me doing a rare strike against IR relationships) usually there is always some perceived level of Asiaphilia or Blackophilia or Whitophilia or whatever in any IR couple. Fundamentally, it is inescapable, and it may be truer than you would like to believe, particularly if you develop a history and pattern of dating one part of ethnicity over another. You may find more attraction between yourself and women of a particular ethnicity for what you perceive to be a very valid (and therefore non-Asiaphilic) reason, but fundamentally... you are still dating women because they are Asian. That is Asiaphilia.

IR couples need to recognize this problem and address it in the best way possible. You will never erase that perception, so the best thing you can do is try your best to not fall into the trappings of Asiaphilia.



If I happen to find an asian female that's beautiful, and we share the same interests and are connecting, and I'm interested in learning more about her culture and I'm sincere, I don't see how in the hell I can disrespect her by saying shitty stuff about her culture! I just don't get it? If I fell in married a Chinese girl, and on the way home from work I speak all manner of racial slurs against every asian I encounter, and then go home and snuggle with my chinese wife, not only does that makes me a hypocrite and an out right asshole, I don't even see how I could do that! I can't reach down and just pull that out! Maybe I'm just built different!

There's a difference between racist IR partners and x-philic IR partners. You are describing the former, but seem to be ignoring the latter. X-philic IR partners may not necessarily use epithets, but both former and latter will usually have some preconceived notions about the ethnicity they are dating. That's where the problem lies, not some random epithets.

[rice cracker]

If that's true, how can you love someone for who they are even if you hate how they look or what their culture represents? Contradictory I think.

The contradiction is the basis for this topic :rolleyes: And I do believe my post mentioned something about exceptions being made and such.

[kitty]

Are you mad that a black man and an asian woman hooked up?

I think this is a ridiculous and unnecessary statement. I believe the problem in this thread lies in different definitions of 'racist' vs. 'asiaphilic'. cap, being racist doesn't necessarily mean hatred of another culture. It merely means having pre-conceived notions about them.

No one (I think) is trying to imply that you are racist or a bad person for your prior relationship. And CERTAINLY, no one is jealous because you 'hooked up' with an asian woman. I think maybe you should try to consider the concept of Asiaphilia that is being discussed, rather than focussing on only the extreme forms of racism that you have been previously dealing with.

regarding the 'brown-skinned' or 'yellow-skinned' comment... my opinion is this. that's bedroom talk that belongs in the bedroom. however you may believe she was beautiful and her hue was lovely, it can easily be misconstrued incorrectly, and it's just bad business to talk about it, 'cuz from the outside... it sounds like you were largely interested in your partner because of the exoticism of her looks and ethnicity.

but yes, this thread needs to get off cap's personal life.

[capoeira]

I believe that a lot of people were... and I believe that you're smart enough to have figured it out, since page 1.

[/LURKER MODE]If it was explained the way kasia explained it on page one, then this thread would have been that much shorter.

I was not being a jerk on purpose, sometimes people have to point out things about you that you may not be concious (spelling) that you're doing. But now that it was explained, and that Istepped back and looked at the situation, and I saw how my different comments could infact be percieved completely different then what I ment, I could say I've learned something.

Yellow world.org has contributed to my growth as a person. Now I know to choose what I say and how to say it very carefully so that it is not percieved in the wrong way here. An example of this could be the whole "brown skin" comment. In my culture, where black people in the community comes in many shades, it is common to say, "Hey, I met this short light skin sister today with short blonde hair, or I met this chocolate, thick shorty with a nice smile." But I've learned that in different cultures, from what I've percieved here, identifying someone by the tone of their skin is a sensitive subject and is disrespectful.

I can say that I'm taking everyone's advice in stride and that I hope their are no ill feelings towards me on this forum. I enjoy posting here and I'm always lurking around. I am in no way a racist and I definitely don't fall into the category of loving somebody, but hating their culture, neither do I exotify the culture. To me, people are just people, I don't put people in boxes or label everybody or any of that stuff. I believe in equality for everyone. [LURKER MODE]

[Kuchana]

The contradiction is the basis for this topic :rolleyes: And I do believe my post mentioned something about exceptions being made and such.

Which is why I'm still puzzled:P :smile: So can it can be defined as love if you're racist about their culture?

[rice cracker]

Which is why I'm still puzzled:P :smile: So can you really love a person if you're racist about their culture?

My answer would be no, you don't really love a person if you can't even accept and celebrate their culture with them. BUT, you can trick yourself into believing you love them, in spite of their race. Which is what I've been saying all along, actually.

Edit: I should add that this is all very subjective. It depends on the individuals definitions of love and racism. "I love chink women and french fries," vs. "I love her and want to marry her," and all.

[capoeira]

I think this is a ridiculous and unnecessary statement. I believe the problem in this thread lies in different definitions of 'racist' vs. 'asiaphilic'. cap, being racist doesn't necessarily mean hatred of another culture. It merely means having pre-conceived notions about them.

No one (I think) is trying to imply that you are racist or a bad person for your prior relationship. And CERTAINLY, no one is jealous because you 'hooked up' with an asian woman. I think maybe you should try to consider the concept of Asiaphilia that is being discussed, rather than focussing on only the extreme forms of racism that you have been previously dealing with.

regarding the 'brown-skinned' or 'yellow-skinned' comment... my opinion is this. that's bedroom talk that belongs in the bedroom. however you may believe she was beautiful and her hue was lovely, it can easily be misconstrued incorrectly, and it's just bad business to talk about it, 'cuz from the outside... it sounds like you were largely interested in your partner because of the exoticism of her looks and ethnicity.

but yes, this thread needs to get off cap's personal life.

[/LURKER MODE]I also put my personal life out their not to say, "hey!!! I'm hip, I'm cool with asians!" which I think that's how it was percieved. I talk about my experiences because I wanted people to know that I'm not just coming out of nowhere as an african american posting on an asian board and not knowing what the hell I'm talking about and not being familiar with any aspect of asian culture except broad stereotypes.

Perhaps in trying to convey that, I might have overkilled the message and came of as son sort of asiaphile. That was not my intentions. I just wanted to make that clear, and that I'm going to post more wisely now. Again, sorry if I offended anyone.[LURKER MODE]

[kimpossible]

BACK ON THE ACTUAL TOPIC AND NOT CAP'S LIFE EXPERIENCES, BE THEY WHAT THEY MAY:

How can a person love someone of another color and still be racist? I would say that first it takes all kinds to make up the world. Exceptions are made, "love" can be a misnomer for lust, and there are all forms of racism, not just to some klansman degree. You can "love" someone and see them as apart from their race because you got to know them, but still ridicule every other member of that race because you're still ignorant. I see it more as embracing an individual, not their culture.

I'm not sure if my take on it is similar to yours or not but I think racist love resides in the degrees of cultural differences and how they can be deemed as exotic in an enjoyable fashion, and then exotic in an annoying fashion. But the main point to me is that in racist love, the good and bad experiences with a partner in IR are hardly ever seen outside the context of that partner's race or culture. Additionally, that intimate relationship or familial kinship is misread on a couple levels:

1) That the kinship or relationship with a person of a certain ethnic background grants you equal access and familiarity with all people of that background. If you know one, you know what they all are like. If you have had affection for one, you therefore cannot be hurtful to any. If one had affection for you, that means the others must also.

2) Kinship and intimacy through life experience with a partner of a certain ethnic background on its own grants you understanding of that person's ancestral culture, society and history at large. Equating the family experience for whole knowledge and that lifestyle comprises (involving culture among other things) equates full cultural and ethnic conversion.

I'd argue a third in the case of some kids from IR. I think that there's a sense of ownership, of absolutely authority and in the case of my father, when he could clearly identify his own genes mixed in with the Asian ones, I think he then felt we were the same. The same in the sense that he could take on my identity because we were related by blood - that blood tie giving him access to the blood that wasn't his.

[deez nuts]

i just wanna say that i except each and every one of you. and i'm mad cuz i'm jealous of you're asian girlfriend. that is all.

[kimpossible]

However, Asiaphilia is also heavily based upon outward perception, especially because you will be less objective, usually, than other people. And, frankly (and this is me doing a rare strike against IR relationships) usually there is always some perceived level of Asiaphilia or Blackophilia or Whitophilia or whatever in any IR couple. Fundamentally, it is inescapable, and it may be truer than you would like to believe, particularly if you develop a history and pattern of dating one part of ethnicity over another. You may find more attraction between yourself and women of a particular ethnicity for what you perceive to be a very valid (and therefore non-Asiaphilic) reason, but fundamentally... you are still dating women because they are Asian. That is Asiaphilia.

IR couples need to recognize this problem and address it in the best way possible. You will never erase that perception, so the best thing you can do is try your best to not fall into the trappings of Asiaphilia.

There's a difference between racist IR partners and x-philic IR partners. You are describing the former, but seem to be ignoring the latter. X-philic IR partners may not necessarily use epithets, but both former and latter will usually have some preconceived notions about the ethnicity they are dating. That's where the problem lies, not some random epithets.

That was very well said. One of the best explanations I've read on a topic often very hard to quantify.

[capoeira]

i just wanna say that i except each and every one of you. and i'm mad cuz i'm jealous of you're asian girlfriend. that is all.

:rolleyes:

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Assuming that marriage always occurs for the right reasons, I'd say that it would stand a much greater chance in fighting racism. Unfortunately, over half the time marriage occurs for the WRONG reasons as perhaps heavily hinted by statistics I have no intention of digging up right now.

[deez nuts]

:rolleyes:

:wink:

[Napoleon Chynamite]

How can you be married to the one you love and still be a biggot against their heritage? Isn't that impossible?! When I was married to my wife (A beautiful brown skinned Filipina) I excepted her for who she was. I never made racist comments about her family members who were shady, nor did I complain about the little quarks she had from her culture, such as leaving her shoes on the porch after coming home from work, or cooking dishes I was unfamiliar with, nor did I mind that she only spoke in tagolog on the phone with her friends or in the presence of my company!

Wow I'm glad to know that all I need to know to get out of 'bigot' status is to refrain from making any racist remarks or complaining about cultural 'quirks'.

I took the good with the bad because I loved her.

What do you mean? What is the good and the bad? The good parts of her culture and the bad parts of her culture you mean?

Not wanting to sound antagonistic or nuthin, just curious ^^

[pretense78]

Consider 'Asiaphile' in two lights: self-identification and outward perception (true of any identity), which usually struggle to find an identity. On the one hand, identity is all about how you perceive yourself, and if you think you are falling for a woman, who is incidentally asian, and it has nothing to do with her ethnicity, than perhaps you do not identify as an Asiaphile.

However, Asiaphilia is also heavily based upon outward perception, especially because you will be less objective, usually, than other people. And, frankly (and this is me doing a rare strike against IR relationships) usually there is always some perceived level of Asiaphilia or Blackophilia or Whitophilia or whatever in any IR couple. Fundamentally, it is inescapable, and it may be truer than you would like to believe, particularly if you develop a history and pattern of dating one part of ethnicity over another. You may find more attraction between yourself and women of a particular ethnicity for what you perceive to be a very valid (and therefore non-Asiaphilic) reason, but fundamentally... you are still dating women because they are Asian. That is Asiaphilia.

IR couples need to recognize this problem and address it in the best way possible. You will never erase that perception, so the best thing you can do is try your best to not fall into the trappings of Asiaphilia.




There's a difference between racist IR partners and x-philic IR partners. You are describing the former, but seem to be ignoring the latter. X-philic IR partners may not necessarily use epithets, but both former and latter will usually have some preconceived notions about the ethnicity they are dating. That's where the problem lies, not some random epithets.


As kimpossible said, that was a very good way of explaining it. I guess if I started dating a black girl from outta the blue, in the back of mind I probably would have some little subconscious fetish going on, even if I didn't realize it.
:eek:

[capoeira]

Wow I'm glad to know that all I need to know to get out of 'bigot' status is to refrain from making any racist remarks or complaining about cultural 'quirks'.



What do you mean? What is the good and the bad? The good parts of her culture and the bad parts of her culture you mean?

Not wanting to sound antagonistic or nuthin, just curious ^^

Oh no...we're not going to go through that again! I was comparing my experience against those who claim to "love" their spouse, but still is biased against their culture.

When I said that I never made racist remarks, I was comparing myself to the ones who are in interacial relationships but still are racist against their spouse's culture. As far as the quirks. Believe it or not, being in an interacial relationship, sooner or later, you will run into unique differences or situations that you are unfamiliar with. When you're with some one you love, you learn more and more about them each day. If you love them, then the little differences such as taking off your shoes before entering the house is no big deal. It's like "oh...okay, that's new....oh well, anyway how was your day." Soon, you don't think twice about it.

I'm sure I caught her off guard a lot of times with the unique little things black people do, and say. Taking the good with the bad is not about her culture, but about her as an individual human being. If I'm in a relationship with a black girl, you take the good with the bad, or being in a relationship with whoever, you take the good with the bad. I'm sure people of the same race who love each other has little things they lover does that they can't stand. That's all I meant.

[achtungbaby]

BUT, you can trick yourself into believing you love them, in spite of their race. Which is what I've been saying all along, actually.
*ding* *ding* *ding*

We have a winner :smile: How often is racism knowingly manifest? Not very, I would think. So it's helpful to begin from a place that's open and willing to consider other perspectives and opinions; this carries over to the question about marriage/relationships... how can we be racist towards the one we love?

Simple -- remain rooted in your perception or idea of who they are to you. Reject the quaint and trivial but unfortunate characteristics that really make up that person, and digest the palatable.

Final note: please keep things civil folks. We can start by ceasing to comment over and over on one's personal life experiences -- those things are there, they're out there, they won't be changed anytime soon, and most importantly, for better or worse, they certainly do not make up who we are today.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

You fools! I practically converted to her culture!!!!! I left my country to live in Guam and left my family behind! I learned her language and even gave her family money and on top of this, I let her sister, who was on drugs, stay with us for six months despite the inconvience and even paid for her G.E.D. and ministered to her and helped her get her shit together while the rest of her family gave up on her! Yep, I'm the bad guy! But it's all good! Y'all can hate on me all y'all want! I'm not perfect, but I'll tell you what, I believe that I have touched more then a few lives in my travels and I'm so thankful for all of the experiences I've had, good and bad.

Wait...you learned Tagalog but you can't spell it or understand it?

[capoeira]

[/LURKING]This is getting deep[LURKING]

[kitty]

*ding* *ding* *ding*

We have a winner :smile: How often is racism knowingly manifest? Not very, I would think. So it's helpful to begin from a place that's open and willing to consider other perspectives and opinions; this carries over to the question about marriage/relationships... how can we be racist towards the one we love?

Simple -- remain rooted in your perception or idea of who they are to you. Reject the quaint and trivial but unfortunate characteristics that really make up that person, and digest the palatable.


agreed.

also, it's easy to think you love someone for one reason that you may link to their personality, but is actually something you are attributing more to your preconceived notion of them. For example, you may find yourself an asian girlfriend, and just love the way she cooks cultural dishes, smiles, and listens intently to what you have to say -- whereas you are projecting it submissiveness onto your partner because she is asian, subconsciously believing she is more caring and attentive because of her ethnicity than other women, when it is untrue.

but overall, i don't see how being married to someone would necessarily shake any preconceived notions one has about a particular culture, especially if you go into the marriage already believing them. you'll just end up seeing what you want to see.

[capoeira]

So it is impossible to be sincere in loving someone of another race without being exotified by the fact they are black/white/asian/italian/ect.

All interacial relationships are not ginuine? I don't buy it. So everyone on earth who has interacial parents, are you saying that they may think they love them, but they subconciously believe that because they are of a different race, they feel that their naturally more loving or more special? If so, i don't agree. That's a wierd way of thinking to me.

Wait...you learned Tagalog but you can't spell it or understand it?
let's not be silly. I learned it because I WANTED to understand it and to communicate with others. And stop making fun of my spelling problem! :biggrin:

[Kuchana]

So it is impossible to be sincere in loving someone of another race without being exotified by the fact they are black/white/asian/italian/ect.

All interacial relationships are not ginuine? I don't buy it. So everyone on earth who has interacial parents, are you saying that they may think they love them, but they subconciously believe that because they are of a different race, they feel that their naturally more loving or more special? If so, i don't agree. That's a wierd way of thinking to me.

It's not impossible to love someone of another race; that's not what's at issue here but if racism and love in ir relationship can co-exist together and it can't, which has already been pointed out.

[mrazntre]

is exotified a word?

[draconisz]

I agree. Let's all be civilized and try to look at it from an objective point of view without automatically pegging cap as a racist or what not. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt for now.

I'm venturing a guess that since this site is for Asians primarily, Cap might have felt a little defensive (I wouldn't blame him) and wanted to post something to test the waters; in this regard his relationship with his ex wife, thinking that it might have some merit for discussion.

But Cap; a word of advice. Quit defending yourself so much. Plus you gotta have a little more discretion with the humor usage. At certain times I think it's inappropriate, especially if some people may not act positively towards it. Just a helpful suggestion :smile:

Back on topic, I don't think it's possible for marriage to cure racism. As some have pointed out, one can love another person as an individual but it doesn't mean that racism is disspelled because of that union.



If that's true, how can you love someone for who they are even if you hate how they look or what their culture represents? Contradictory I think.

Kuchana, I just have to say. . .I like your style.

That's some powerful material you are laying down.

[kasia]

It's not impossible to love someone of another race; that's not what's at issue here but if racism and love in ir relationship can co-exist together and it can't, which has already been pointed out.

why not? love and sexism coexist. =) check out the history of the institution of marriage.

[achtungbaby]

So it is impossible to be sincere in loving someone of another race without being exotified by the fact they are black/white/asian/italian/ect.
No. That's not what I'm arguing. It may very well be possible to 'truly' love another person without harboring some racist notions, it may not be.

What I'm saying is that marriage in of itself is not some passport that allows one person to be 'unracist'. I think the portion you're having trouble swallowing is that perhaps you've become accustomed to equating marriage with love, and love with respect, and respect with 'unracism'...and so on. But this may not always be the case.


All interacial relationships are not ginuine?
? Okay, you lost me. Which thread are you quoting from? You're beginning to make me think you're not hearing a word people are saying (and I'm not referring to the posts that deal with your personal business).

That's some powerful material you are laying down.
Except for one small clarification: this site is not "primarily" for Asians, it is for Asians, period. We welcome non-Asians, obviously, but this site's focus is on Asians, and if as a non-Asian you happen to learn/glean something from that perspective, cool.

[mrazntre]

*music break*

My baby don't mess around
Because she loves me so
And this I know fa sho (Uh!)
But does she really wanna
But can't stand to see me walk out the do'
Don't try to fight the feeling
'Cause the thought alone
Is killing me right now (Uh!)
Thank God for Mom and Dad
For sticking two together
'Cause we don't know how

[mr. x]

Mail-order brides anyone!

you're still here?

[BeTheReds]

So what happens when it dawns on someone in a marriage that he/she might have been unknowingly racist? Is there a remedy for this? Should he divorce immediately or be condemened to death? We've spent so much time arguing about how it is possible to be married and be racist against the spouse's race, but what I want to know is, how do you solve the problem? Saying don't get married in the first place doesn't help because it's much after the fact.

[kitty]

So what happens when it dawns on someone in a marriage that he/she might have been unknowingly racist? Is there a remedy for this? Should he divorce immediately or be condemened to death? We've spent so much time arguing about how it is possible to be married and be racist against the spouse's race, but what I want to know is, how do you solve the problem? Saying don't get married in the first place doesn't help because it's much after the fact.

well, hopefully the partner would've recognized that they are being exoticized or fetishized, but if this isn't the case, then the partner really must make the decision of whether or not they are okay with it. Some partners will be, others won't. If you begin to recognize YOURSELF as guilty of exoticizing your partner, the best/only thing you can do is really bring up the situation with your partner.

I don't think breaking up right off the bat is really a realistic solution. And prolly not death sentences, either.

[Bhodi_Li]

I have my own opinion of what's going on, but I'm going to keep my bias to myself.

Anyway, the forum is for discussion and not for 1 person to defend himself against all other members. What I hate about these forums, sometimes, is the mob mentality.I agree.

somehow i think commenting on someone's skin color is different from commenting on their hair color.Why? What if you are attracted to the color of someone's skin? Some find tanned skin more attractive. Some don't like ghost-white.

[capoeira]

We welcome non-Asians, obviously, but this site's focus is on Asians, and if as a non-Asian you happen to learn/glean something from that perspective, cool.

So far I've learned a lot and have added new words to my vocabulary!

Exoticized

Fetishized


:biggrin: (Thanks Kittygirl) :wink:

[stunninglyAsian]

easy. if you exoticize them for their racial/ethnic background...

If the relationship is soley based on this, then the relationship has no merit and I think we can all agree that the relationship should end immediately.

But what about if that is part of it? Let's say in an IR couple both people love each other, but the white person does exoticize the Asian partner to a certain degree. Not in that blatant, disrespectful, "Oh, my geisha loves good ole' American cock." manner; instead their fetish is internalized. They enjoy the exotic features and culture of their Asian partner and view it as a bit exciting to be in a relationship with one. Is that so horrible and grounds for an immediate breakup or divorce?

[kitty]

If the relationship is soley based on this, then the relationship has no merit and I think we can all agree that the relationship should end immediately.

But what about if that is part of it? Let's say in an IR couple both people love each other, but the white person does exoticize the Asian partner to a certain degree. Not in that blatant, disrespectful, "Oh, my geisha loves good ole' American cock." manner; instead their fetish is internalized. They enjoy the exotic features and culture of their Asian partner and view it as a bit exciting to be in a relationship with one. Is that so horrible and grounds for an immediate breakup or divorce?

well, hopefully the partner would've recognized that they are being exoticized or fetishized, but if this isn't the case, then the partner really must make the decision of whether or not they are okay with it. Some partners will be, others won't. If you begin to recognize YOURSELF as guilty of exoticizing your partner, the best/only thing you can do is really bring up the situation with your partner.

I don't think breaking up right off the bat is really a realistic solution. And prolly not death sentences, either.


from my post earlier...

[PropellerheadCP]

why not? love and sexism coexist. =) check out the history of the institution of marriage.

I think that just summed up the whole point of all the debates against capoeira's original idea. That people's concept of marriage, at its most ideal and romantic form, isn't exactly how it exists in reality.
Sexism and racism can easily exist in any so-called "loving" relationship, let along marriage.

I was going to karma you, but I need to spread some more around, before I can get back to you.

[Kuchana]

why not? love and sexism coexist. =) check out the history of the institution of marriage.

Actually let me rephrase that. Racism and love ideally cannot coexist since love does not spring forth racism or tolerate it. But I wouldn't be surprised that a lot of relationships and/or marriages wouldn't reflect that but then again ait isn't in reality love if you're racist person. You may think you're in love with your s.o other but how can it truly be love if you're racist against his/her own culture? Racism I think is much more of a different and serious matter from sexism so therefore I see more of a reason to question how racism and love can coexist than with sexism and love itself.

And I'm not going to argue on how love and sexism coexist because I agree with you on that part. :P :)

[PropellerheadCP]

just cuz you smile at, hump on, or say `i do`to a black man dont mean you wont lynch him.

love,
prof. frink

Ouch...

That's why so many marriages, these days, end terribly. People getting together for the wrong reasons; sometimes not even knowing it. I remember someone whom I know, who was married for 3 months. Her husband was beating her and she "finally couldn't take it". My first question was whether or not she knew that he would do that. She said she hoped to change him with marriage, but it didn't work.
To top it off, it was a white man that the Chinese woman was married to. We're talking about sexism AND racism, existing in that marriage.

[achtungbaby]

So far I've learned a lot and have added new words to my vocabulary!

Exoticized

Fetishized
Good! Now try not to do them :smile:

[hooligan]

Actually let me rephrase that. Racism and love ideally cannot coexist since love does not spring forth racism or tolerate it. But I wouldn't be surprised that a lot of relationships and/or marriages wouldn't reflect that but then again ait isn't in reality love if you're racist person. You may think you're in love with your s.o other but how can it truly be love if you're racist against his/her own culture? Racism I think is much more of a different and serious matter from sexism so therefore I see more of a reason to question how racism and love can coexist than with sexism and love itself.

And I'm not going to argue on how love and sexism coexist because I agree with you on that part. :P :)you should read frank chin and his writings on "racist love". the face sent me an article, if you'd like, i can send it to you. racism and sexism come from the same sort of oppression, the only difference is one is based on race and the other is based on gender. i believe that if a person's racist, essentially they can very easily be sexist.

saying that racism is different and more serious than sexism is giving more weight toward racism, which i don't believe is fair.

i'm going to weigh in with my own opinions, but i think other people have echoed it already, but racism/sexism and love can co-exist. love is defined only in context of the relationship that you're in. for example, a person can be in a relationship where they are loving the other person, but they believe that whatever ethnicity, culture, or background is flawed. that their language is horrible, their food is smelly, their people or relatives are dirty, yet still be married or in love with the person.

i mean, you're going to have to define love/marriage and that in itself is problematic.

[ChinaLama]

love and marriage?

[>:^|]

i mean, you're going to have to define love/marriage and that in itself is problematic.

I actually see this as being the root of the disagreement. Some people are defining love as being contradictory to racism, somehow.

Heck, I know any of a number of racist White people married to people of color. Plus I've got a bunch of racist White people in my family. Do they love me? They would say so; I might even say so. Are they racist? Sure.

[bydesign]

I can see where Capeoira is coming from.

He didn't make up the title of the thread, "Can Marriage Cure Racism?", he was talking about a situation where one person is in a loving relationship with another person of another race which seems to be the situation he was in.

It seems to me he was in love with her as he put up with all her faults and her two-faced relatives. He fell in love with her and also fell in love with her culture because he loved her.

In this context it would be hard to conceive of where a person might be racist (in the sense of not liking the race of the partner, not wanting to have anything to do with it, not wanting to understand it or assimilate to it) to his/her partner's race.

"Exoticized" or "fetishized" -- this is making my head spin -- these are not naturally bad things or things that mean a person is racist. There are many intangibles in love --- what is wrong about preferring one race over another as a partner. It happens all the time. Just because she is Asian and Capoeira is not doesn't mean he fetishizes about Asians. If he preferred Amercian African women does that mean he fetishizes African culture/race?

You just can't help who you fall in love with -- it is biological to a large extent -- it is not something that you can be politically correct about.

On the whole I think IR marriages do open the doors to better understanding of other cultures -- and if anything it does diminish racism in general.

Capoeira, if you experienced racism within an IR relationship then you have to question whether the other person really cared about you.

Generally marrying someone for love means you embrace that person entirely, their race, their cultural background anyway.

Marrying somebody for the wrong reasons such as marrying an Asian woman because you believe in the stereotype that Asian women are submissive will usually not last unless the woman actually is the submissive type.

If your beliefs about a partner's personality (no matter what they are or how they have come about -- yes even those based on stereotypes) are realized in a marriage, then I think that marriage or relationship has a better chance of success than if they're not.

In your case Capoeira, I think what you outline is a picture of an ex who was not at all the submissive type, so I think it is wrong for posters to jump in and start attacking him by bringing up 'fetishism' angle.

For those who think they need to still talk about that, there are many other threads where you can attack people for that - read the threads in the Women/Men forums where there are comparisons made about different nationalities - are Korean females more prone to dramas in their relationships, are Chinese women more materialistic and so on -- and most of these posts are written by Asians themselves.

[moJo]

There are many intangibles in love --- what is wrong about preferring one race over another as a partner.
but what is it about an entire race of people that could cause someone to prefer a race over another or all others? are there certain generalities (personality, disposition, etc) that can be made for people of certain races? or if someone is attracted to 'typical' physical attributes of people of a certain race, why? it makes me question the origins of racial preferences.

i don't see how one can have a preference for a race aside from their own. and even in regards to your own race, i'm not so sure. to a certain extent i can kinda see why. i can definitely understand ethnic preference, though (your own ethnicity, that is).

[bydesign]

but what is it about an entire race of people that could cause someone to prefer a race over another or all others? are there certain generalities (personality, disposition, etc) that can be made for people of certain races? or if someone is attracted to 'typical' physical attributes of people of a certain race, why? it makes me question the origins of racial preferences.
It is anything and everything -- as many reasons as there are for why two people fall in love - we are all unique in what we like in our partners - and our preferences can change too.

Why can't you understand someone liking someone not of their own race? It happens all the time.

And why do you prefer partners of the same ethnicity as yourself? Have you ever analyzed it? Maybe you prefer your own culture over others and prefer partners who follow the same culture? Isn't there a degree of "fetishism" in that? Is there anything wrong with that? What is it about people of your own race/ethnicity that you like?

[moJo]

It is anything and everything -- as many reasons as there are for why two people fall in love - we are all unique in what we like in our partners - and our preferences can change too.

Why can't you understand someone liking someone not of their own race? It happens all the time.

And why do you prefer partners of the same ethnicity as yourself? Have you ever analyzed it? Maybe you prefer your own culture over others and prefer partners who follow the same culture? Isn't there a degree of "fetishism" in that? Is there anything wrong with that? What is it about people of your own race/ethnicity that you like?
whoa. i never said anything about liking someone who was a different race. hell, my exbf isn't asian. but you were talking about an actual preference. that's different.

personally i don't have a racial preference for significant others. so i can't answer that part of your question. if anything, i would probably have an ethnic preference but obviously that isn't set in stone. just cuz a guy is chinese doesn't make him better in my book. the last date i had was w/ a chinese guy. cute and funny, but we didn't have jack shit in common. he was the artsy bohemian type and i'm...well, not. wtf is my point? ummm...oh. but there IS a certain connection that i have with my chinese friends. perhaps it's our similar 1.5 & 2nd generation upbringings. (not to discount the great connections that i have with my non-chinese friends.) i think this can be carried over to romantic relationships as well. i think you can share commonalities and relate and all that with people of any race/ethnicity, for all relationships. but someone of the same ethnicity...there's probably - but not definitely - some additional connection there.

apologies if i'm rambling. it's 3am over here.

[younggiftedandblack]

How can you be married to the one you love and still be a biggot against their heritage?

My ex-wife the mother of my child is white. Once in the middle of a heated argument she called me a stupid nigger. Marriage doesn't cure a damn thing. I've known plenty of WM who were married to AF and still held racist ideas on their spouses race.

[PropellerheadCP]

"Exoticized" or "fetishized" -- this is making my head spin -- these are not naturally bad things or things that mean a person is racist. There are many intangibles in love --- what is wrong about preferring one race over another as a partner. It happens all the time. Just because she is Asian and Capoeira is not doesn't mean he fetishizes about Asians. If he preferred Amercian African women does that mean he fetishizes African culture/race?

You just can't help who you fall in love with -- it is biological to a large extent -- it is not something that you can be politically correct about.

On the whole I think IR marriages do open the doors to better understanding of other cultures -- and if anything it does diminish racism in general.

Capoeira, if you experienced racism within an IR relationship then you have to question whether the other person really cared about you.

Generally marrying someone for love means you embrace that person entirely, their race, their cultural background anyway.

Marrying somebody for the wrong reasons such as marrying an Asian woman because you believe in the stereotype that Asian women are submissive will usually not last unless the woman actually is the submissive type.



I've seen a lot of marriages, based on racism, that has lasted a VERY long time. For example, my mother's friend from school and her husband, who was also my dentist for a while. He would not allow their children to be in contact with anything Chinese. Everything had to be "Canadian", in his words... which means "white". His wife married him, thinking that she's better off, because she's with a white man, rather than a lowly Chinese man. So, she's fine with her children not being exposed to anything Chinese. However, the woman feels that she's very strong is very driven, in regards to her career.
So from what I've seen, racism can be integrated into marriage, very easily.

In which case, how can it help diminish racism? The thing is, such cases are being more and more common, rather than the opposite, which one would think would start happening these days.
Further more, the fetish for Asian women has become stronger than ever before. To the point where a lot of non-Asian women have accepted it (and in some cases, have a fetish, themselves). So many times, I've heard men say that they "love Asian women", but don't know a damn thing about them, other than their racial features. So many times, I've heard women prefer white men... but "it's only a preference".

To like or dislike a person due to race, is racism. It's that simple. To justify an idea, with "everyone has a preference", is simply another attempt to justify one's own racism. I didn't join this forum, because the majority thinks that such "preferences" is fine.

[bydesign]

whoa. i never said anything about liking someone who was a different race. hell, my exbf isn't asian. but you were talking about an actual preference. that's different.

We ARE talking about marriage/romantic relationships with people of different races - that's what I meant by "like" (as in "attracted to") -- don't turn this into an argument - it's unnecessary - I wasn't accusing you of racism.

personally i don't have a racial preference for significant others. so i can't answer that part of your question.

YOU may not but other people do.

Didn't you just say you can't understand how people could choose to have partners of another race, only Asians if you're Asian, and so on?

if anything, i would probably have an ethnic preference but obviously that isn't set in stone.
So you do have a preference now. Though not one 'set in stone'.

just cuz a guy is chinese doesn't make him better in my book.
Noone is saying any race is better than another because someone prefers to marry/date that race more than any other.

You don't have to explain why you prefer to date a certain ethnicity if you don't want to. Nobody has to justify their preference. If someone grew up in an Asian country they more than likely prefer to date an Asian -- it's common. If you don't there's nothing wrong with that either.

[PropellerheadCP]

You don't have to explain why you prefer to date a certain ethnicity if you don't want to. Nobody has to justify their preference. If someone grew up in an Asian country they more than likely prefer to date an Asian -- it's common. If you don't there's nothing wrong with that either.

So you are stating that, if you grew up in an American country, you'd prefer "Americans"?

[bydesign]

I've seen a lot of marriages, based on racism, that has lasted a VERY long time. For example
One example doesn't prove anything. I was making a generalization besides.

His wife married him, thinking that she's better off, because she's with a white man, rather than a lowly Chinese man.

So isn't she 'fetishizing' her white husband?

By putting up with his behavior and not going against it she is also in a sense condoning this form of 'racial exclusion'.


So from what I've seen, racism can be integrated into marriage, very easily.
Especially when both people in the union are willing participants -- obviously the woman doesn't have strong feelings against it because she goes along with it. Perhaps the dentist has his reasons for wanting everything to be "white" -- he is used to it, he lives in Canada which is a European nation, and he wants his children to be assimilated to this culture perhaps.

In which case, how can it help diminish racism? The thing is, such cases are being more and more common, rather than the opposite, which one would think would start happening these days.
I don't know about that. I think if anything's it's the opposite. The borders between races are being broken down, people are more accepting of IR relationships, there's more acceptance of different cultures nowadays.

Further more, the fetish for Asian women has become stronger than ever before. To the point where a lot of non-Asian women have accepted it (and in some cases, have a fetish, themselves). So many times, I've heard men say that they "love Asian women", but don't know a damn thing about them, other than their racial features. So many times, I've heard women prefer white men... but "it's only a preference".
Yes I've heard that too. I think it goes both ways. It doesn't matter how many white men are into Asian women. If the Asian women themselves didn't want to have relationships outside their race these relationships wouldn't happen in the first place.

To like or dislike a person due to race, is racism. It's that simple. To justify an idea, with "everyone has a preference", is simply another attempt to justify one's own racism. I didn't join this forum, because the majority thinks that such "preferences" is fine.
Nope, it's not racism to want to date people of a certain race. You cannot deny or control whom you are attracted to sexually and to whom you are not. If you are not attracted to people of X race then I don't think that makes you a racist. And neither does being attracted to mostly people of Y race. Conversely not having preferences for whom you want to date doesn't not make you a racist necessarily. Racism has got nothing to do with whom you want to date/marry. If it did then 90-99% of the world would be racist as I believe the majority of people want to marry other people within the same community/ethnic group.

So you are stating that, if you grew up in an American country, you'd prefer "Americans"?
I may or I may not. Americans are all different races by the way, it's a more mixed country than most Asian ones. American can mean white, black, native American, Asian ....

Where did I say that where you grow up you MUST prefer people of that country? Don't twist my words, please.

I said: it is COMMON for people to date/marry within their own race, but if they DON'T there's NOTHING wrong with that.

As I said everyone is different.

I just repeated my previous post. :(

[kitty]

If he preferred Amercian African women does that mean he fetishizes African culture/race?

yes.

racism isn't about hate. it's about discrimination based on race. and that can mean love too. if race is the main factor, it's the main factor regardless of how it is acted upon.

and yes, you can fetishize your own culture and ethnicity.

[bydesign]

yes.

racism isn't about hate. it's about discrimination based on race. and that can mean love too. if race is the main factor, it's the main factor regardless of how it is acted upon.

and yes, you can fetishize your own culture and ethnicity.
Of course you can "fetishize" your own culture and ethnicity (whatever "fetishize" means) but it appears that the accusations or speculations about fetishism seem to come up more when somebody who is non-Asian states his preference for Asian girls - that is why I brought this up and asked the above rhetorical question.

I'm interested in why the discussion of fetishism and supposed racism does not come up in threads such as in the male/female threads about "I like to date girls/guys of X nationality because X girls/guys have better ----" etc. I'm not attacking these threads by the way but if one is going to be "politically correct" then these threads have more content that is relevant to the discussion of "fetishism" than this thread has I believe.

I don't think racism and racial preferences for dating belong together. Whom you choose to date is personal and does not belong in the same category as discriminating against someone for a job because she is Asian/black/white even though that person is the best one qualified for that job.

In your very broad interpretation of the word 'racism', it would be racist to prefer to date people of a certain race or 'ethnocentric' or 'nationalistic' to want to date mainly people from a particular country or ethnic group -- but in the commonly understood sense of the word, it is generally not recognized as such.

The distinction is understood by most people. That's why it's illegal to put an ad in the paper saying you are looking for people of a particular race to share a home with but it's not illegal at all to put down your racial preferences (or state your race) in a personal dating ad.

[kitty]

hoookay... I feel partially responsible for bringing in the terms 'fetishization' and 'exoticization' into this discussion. I apologize for making your head spin, but from your usage of the terms in the post I'll be quoting and responding to below, you're not really using them as if you know what they mean. So here's a basic definition:

exoticisation: the process by which someone typecasts someone or something because they percieve that they are different or exotic from oneself.

fetishization: the process by which someone associates themself with someone or something because of a perceived common characteristic with something they are attracted (usually sexually) to (i.e., I fetishize Asian women = I have a fetish for Asian women)

As you can see, fetishization can occur beyond race, and more often than not does. Fetishization in the context of this thread is racial, however, as in "I have a fetish for Asian women" rather than "I have a fetish for feet" which is irrelevant to this discussion.

Here's one more quickie definition, which I went into earlier:

racism: the act of discriminating against another person based upon race.

Racism is not just about hatred. It is merely about discrimination (i.e. typecasting, or making generalizations) based upon racial information. Morality in racism implies that someone is around to differentiate between the 'positive' discrimination and the 'negative' discrimination. For example, if someone were to believe that I were good at math because of my Chinese-ness, that is still racism, even if from some angles it could be considered a 'positive' stereotype -- fundamentally, I'm still being boiled down because of my race.

So isn't she 'fetishizing' her white husband?

By putting up with his behavior and not going against it she is also in a sense condoning this form of 'racial exclusion'.


This is two different thoughts. First off, is she fetishizing her white husband? Is she attracted to him because of a real or perceived commonality with a characteristic she finds attractive? i.e., is she with him *because* he is white?

I think that yes, if the example is an actually truthful representation of her mode of thinking when it comes to this white husband, then yes, she has fetishized him/white culture much as one would fetishize leather or feet.

Is she condoning racial exclusion? If by this you mean is she as 'guilty', so to speak, as the husband for wanting to distance her children from Chinese culture, than absolutely. But that is a separate issue from fetishization and exoticization, anyways.


I don't know about that. I think if anything's it's the opposite. The borders between races are being broken down, people are more accepting of IR relationships, there's more acceptance of different cultures nowadays.


They are more 'openly' "accepting" of IR relationships -- in that an IR couple has a better chance of not getting stoned to death. But I hardly think people are on average wholly okay with IR relationships. People just know better than to say anything, for fear of being called racist.


Nope, it's not racism to want to date people of a certain race. You cannot deny or control whom you are attracted to sexually and to whom you are not. If you are not attracted to people of X race then I don't think that makes you a racist. And neither does being attracted to mostly people of Y race. Conversely not having preferences for whom you want to date doesn't not make you a racist necessarily. Racism has got nothing to do with whom you want to date/marry. If it did then 90-99% of the world would be racist as I believe the majority of people want to marry other people within the same community/ethnic group.


Fundamentally, it does make you racist because you are using race as a marker for sexual attraction. You are saying 'I like Asian women' and are pursuing women of Asian descent, because of their ethnic/racial characteristics than for who they actually are. In a sense, you are saying 'all Asian women are X, and I am attracted to X', which is just another form of racist, generalized thinking. It doesn't really matter if X could be construed as positive or negative, just the very fact that you are making generalizations based on race makes it racist thinking.

And yes, that means that people who date within their own race can be racist in their dating patterns too.

What people need to realize is that calling someone racist, in this sense, isn't wholly a bad thing. It is part of human nature -- a part that is offensive to other people, but doesn't make you a failure of a human being. If someone can recognize their own natural tendancy to put people into convenient little boxes based on race, than you can try to combat it within yourself by either a) recognizing how it can be hurtful to other people and b) perhaps opening your eyes to what exactly you are exoticizing or fetishizing. That's the take home message.

Of course you can "fetishize" your own culture and ethnicity (whatever "fetishize" means) but it appears that the accusations or speculations about fetishism seem to come up more when somebody who is non-Asian states his preference for Asian girls - that is why I brought this up and asked the above rhetorical question.

I'm interested in why the discussion of fetishism and supposed racism does not come up in threads such as in the male/female threads about "I like to date girls/guys of X nationality because X girls/guys have better ----" etc. I'm not attacking these threads by the way but if one is going to be "politically correct" then these threads have more content that is relevant to the discussion of "fetishism" than this thread has I believe.

I don't think racism and racial preferences for dating belong together. Whom you choose to date is personal and does not belong in the same category as discriminating against someone for a job because she is Asian/black/white even though that person is the best one qualified for that job.

In your very broad interpretation of the word 'racism', it would be racist to prefer to date people of a certain race or 'ethnocentric' or 'nationalistic' to want to date mainly people from a particular country or ethnic group -- but in the commonly understood sense of the word, it is generally not recognized as such.

The distinction is understood by most people. That's why it's illegal to put an ad in the paper saying you are looking for people of a particular race to share a home with but it's not illegal at all to put down your racial preferences (or state your race) in a personal dating ad.

well, if you want to talk about race as a social stigma, why differentiate based only on whether racism affects you on the job or at home? Is it more harmful when it affects your economic success as opposed to your marital success? What about when it comes to your educational success? Or is success not interlinked?

I mean, it's alright to say that you only want to combat racism in the workplace, but most likely the same people who make discriminatory judgements at home when it comes to their relationships will make those discriminatory judgements at work during hiring practices. Why? Because it is a mindset, not an action, and while it may seem rather esoteric to talk about it as a mindset, fundamentally, if you want to defeat the problem, you need to address it as a mindset (without advocating thought police. Cuz I'm not advocating thought police).

Whomever you choose to date *is* personal, which is why people need to get over the immediate defensiveness when people are calling you out on the inherent racism of dating a string of Asian girls or white men or whatever. But that doesn't mean you're not being racist. If someone is a serial killer, and kills a whole bunch of people, and hides their bodies in his cellar on his private property, one could argue it's entirely a 'personal' situation -- but that doesn't stop him from being a homicidal maniac.

Regarding threads in which 'I like to date X girls' then yes, racism is a factor there too. Fetishization is a factor. Exoticisation *can* be a factor. (Please see previous post for definitions of these terms). Should people be called on it? Absolutely.

Maybe if you feel like it's a problem, you should raise the issue there... the problem is that race *is* a factor in IR relationships, but people in IRs rarely want to address it, preferring to live in this happy-happy-world where the 'melding of two beautiful skin tones will bring forth and multiply into absolute racial harmony'. Bullshit. Anyone who thinks that racism will end by having everyone fuck a different coloured person is living in a fantasy world.

So yes, it comes up a lot in IR threads because the people in IRs either want to talk about it as an obstacle or want to deny its existence -- because fundamentally, that's all that makes an IR relationship any different from any other relationship. So I think you can understand why it comes up in threads about IRs... if not, there would be nothing to talk about.

[SunWuKong]

ok. don't want to read very long posts on IR relationships. let me know if things get too heated up and i need to do some regulating.

[bydesign]

Kittygirl wrote:

racism isn't about hate. it's about discrimination based on race. and that can mean love too. if race is the main factor, it's the main factor regardless of how it is acted upon.
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Propellorhead wrote:
To justify an idea, with "everyone has a preference", is simply another attempt to justify one's own racism. I didn't join this forum, because the majority thinks that such "preferences" is fine.

According to kittygirl, you're joining this forum to talk about Asians with other Asians and so making a distinction by race which is a racist act, PropellorHead. Not my idea but kittygirl's.

And no, I don't need to talk about "fetishism" on these Men/Women threads, YOU do kittygirl, you're the one who thinks "fetishism' is a big deal -- not me. I am very skeptical of the whole concept of this thing as shown throughtout my posts.

As you've stated
"you can fetishize your own culture and ethnicity".
Capoeira started the thread and I cannot see where he "fetishizes" his ex, so starting a discussion about "fetishism" in his case I see is presumptive.

In my opinion, 'fetishism' (from how I see when it crops up on this discussion board) involves a double standard. If an Asian guy or girl speaks about the perceived characteristics of a particular Asian group then it is not 'fetishism', when a non-Asian does, it is.
the problem is that race *is* a factor in IR relationships, but people in IRs rarely want to address it, preferring to live in this happy-happy-world where the 'melding of two beautiful skin tones will bring forth and multiply into absolute racial harmony'. Bullshit. Anyone who thinks that racism will end by having everyone fuck a different coloured person is living in a fantasy world.
I don't have stats to back my statements up but I think that living with someone of a different race helps increase exposure to the different culture of that race and exposure will only help to improve understanding and learning of that culture which help to break down borders between races.

Acceptance and understanding through education.

I believe the more we know of others, the more we will see we are more alike than different, the differences are more superficial and the similarities are more fundamental.

So no, I have to disagree that believing that is "living in a fantasy world".




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[PropellerheadCP]

According to kittygirl, you're joining this forum to talk about Asians with other Asians and so making a distinction by race which is a racist act, PropellorHead. Not