NY Teens Plead Innocent in Killing of Deliveryman

[achtungbaby]

NEW YORK (AP) -- Two 16-year-olds accused of robbing a Chinese food deliveryman and then beating and stabbing him to death have pleaded innocent to second-degree murder.

Prosecutors charge that Nayquan Miller and Charles Bryant killed 18-year-old Huang Chen with a baseball bat and a knife on Feb. 13 and dumped his body in a lake in a Queens park.

They pleaded innocent to charges of second-degree murder, robbery and tampering with physical evidence at their arraignment in State Supreme Court in Queens on Thursday, and their attorneys declined comment.

The teenagers were ordered held without bail until a May 27 hearing.

If convicted, they could face up to 25 years to life in prison.

Sound familiar? (http://yellowworld.org/article/2/19.html)

The latest murder of a Queens Chinese food delivery man highlights the danger that has always been part of the job, advocates for immigrant workers said yesterday. [details (http://yellowworld.org/?m=show&id=176)]

[Iconoclastic]

If they go free, there better be riots

[yoMAMA]

If they go free, there better be riots

My question is.....how can this only be 2nd degree murder?!?!?!?!

First degree life w/o parole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[hooligan]

pleading innocent, how the heck are they going to try to get away with this? at least a reduction in jail term, but i honestly hope they throw the book at them. is there anything we can do? i mean in terms of bringing visibility to this issue or educating people about this case?

[lethal]

One thing is write to the Queens DA and try to have him upgrade the charges to include a hate crime.

Another is write to Flushing City Councilman John Liu to make him aware of the issue.

[yoMAMA]

contac the local and national media?

[Banana]

Another is write to Flushing City Councilman John Liu to make him aware of the issue.

He was on the local news talking about it so I think he's already working on it. As someone else said, this should be 1st degree since it was planned.

[deez nuts]

savages

[yoMAMA]

savages

indeed.

[kasia]

My question is.....how can this only be 2nd degree murder?!?!?!?!

First degree life w/o parole!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I want to know the facts in this case? Are they saying that there was no premediation? They were obviously lying in wait while they were waiting for him to deliver the food. Are they saying that they didn't mean to kill him? They only intended to push him around a little with the baseball bat and knife, eh?

P.C. Media Ignores Racist Murder

By Andrew Popper
FrontPageMagazine.com | March 1, 2004

Approximately 10 days ago, Charles Bryant and Nayquan Miller, both 16 and of Queens, placed an order for Chinese food from the Ming Garden restaurant on Guy Brewer Boulevard in South Jamaica. Eighteen year-old Huang Chen who was working in his parent's restaurant so that his sister could attend Stony Brook University, responded to the order but when he arrived at the apartment he was greeted by an act of vicious racist brutality reminiscent of the antigay bias crime, which victimized Matthew Shepherd in Wyoming. This time instead of a fence-post in a snow-covered field, the victim ended up in a frozen murky pond. After first beating the defenseless boy with baseball bats, the two sadistic thugs pulled out knives and stabbed him to death as he was pleading for his life.

After placing a plastic bag over Huang Chen's head, they tossed him into a shopping cart and wheeled him into his own car for the short trip to Brookville Park where he was dumped in a pond like garbage. Hours later, when police finally arrived at the address left at the restaurant for the delivery of the food, they found Nayquan Miller wearing a bloody shirt trying to clean large amounts of blood splattered on the ceiling and walls, graphically demonstrating the horror of the last moments of Huang Chen's young life.

The fact that a Chinese restaurant was targeted was no accident. A recent article in the New York Post described a new inner-city sport known as "Chink Bashing" which involves racist, premeditated assaults and worse on Chinese delivery boys. Of course, with the selective indignation of the politically correct media, it is very doubtful whether the appropriate government officials from the U.S. Justice Department will ever investigate this heinous murder and violation of civil rights. Unfortunately, if there are no public consequences for this senseless and racially motivated murder, there is no doubt that what was done to Huang Chen will happen again. As a Jew who lost at least 50 ancestors in the holocaust it saddens me that New York's Asian community has not acted more vigorously to this outrage. Acting like sheep in the face of such racist bloodletting can only result in more innocents entering the slaughterhouse.

It is interesting to note that when a black youth is killed in any racially tinged incident, the regular media invariably refer to the victim as a "boy," usually accompanied by a sympathetic graduation picture. In this case, however, where the victim is an Asian boy killed in what is undeniably a hate crime, the media chose to call him a man; no pictures accompanied any of the NY City newspaper articles. Apparently some victims of racist murder warrant more sympathy from the media than others. It is time that all victims of such vile hate crimes receive equal attention and that the evil hypocrisy of selective indignation is ended.

[yoMAMA]

I want to know the facts in this case? Are they saying that there was no premediation? They were obviously lying in wait while they were waiting for him to deliver the food. Are they saying that they didn't mean to kill him? They only intended to push him around a little with the baseball bat and knife, eh?

yeah......all evidence points out to a premeditated, cold blooded murder of another person.

If that's not first degree, i don't know what is.

[kasia]

in the murder of vincent chin, ebens and nitz were also charged with 2nd degree murder.

[Cipherous]

Alrighty, who wants to go protest in NY?

[kasia]

if hate crime legislation does not apply to this - what's the point of having it at all???


how is this NOT first-degree murder?

would felony murder apply? they kidnapped him into their home!

i'm so disgusted.

[moJo]

how awful. why doesn't THIS make national headlines? :mad:

good commentary article thingy, kasie.

edit: and how the hell are you going to plead innocent when the cops find you wearing a bloody shirt, and cleaning up blood? i mean, i'm sure they've checked the blood by now to match it with the victim, right.

[Cipherous]

I want to know the facts in this case? Are they saying that there was no premediation? They were obviously lying in wait while they were waiting for him to deliver the food. Are they saying that they didn't mean to kill him? They only intended to push him around a little with the baseball bat and knife, eh?
I think they got off with self defense, I read the article and it said that he pulled out a kitchen knife and thats when he was shot.

I am sure if the lawyer was good enough and the prosectutor was crappy enough, things would go their way.

[achtungbaby]

He called slay 'fun'

Grisly tale in delivery slaying

By SCOTT SHIFREL
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER

A teen charged with killing a Chinese food deliveryman summed up the brutal murder by saying, "Wasn't it fun what we did to that guy?" according to chilling statements obtained by the Daily News.

The heartless suspects took turns kicking, stabbing and beating 18-year-old Huang Chen after he made a delivery in Queens on Feb. 13, the statements show. Then they used menus from the Chen family's Ming Garden restaurant to start a fire to destroy evidence, according to the statements, which were written by cops and signed by the teens.

Charles Bryant and Nayquan Miller, both 16, were arraigned yesterday in Queens Supreme Court at a hearing attended by the victim's family and packed with leaders from the Chinese community, including City Councilman John Liu.

"They are evil. They deserve no mercy," said Chen's sister, Yvonne Chen, 22, as her parents stood next to her outside the courthouse. "I want them punished forever."

The statements also reveal that a third person, referred to only as Hits, was involved in the slaying. He has been interviewed by investigators, who are considering charges against him, The News has learned.

The statements describe a senseless death.

"Charles pulled out his knife and stabbed him, and then Hits grabbed the knife and stabbed him and then he passed me the knife and I stabbed him, too," Miller told cops.

Bryant said they lured Chen to Miller's Rochdale Village apartment with a $10 order because they wanted to rob him, the statement said. The teens each wanted to buy a new pair of $110 Air Jordan sneakers, Bryant told cops.

Both suspects described pools of blood left in the hallway, where Chen was first assaulted, and in the apartment after the killing.

"The man was bleeding from the head and was saying, 'Just take the money. Just take the money,'" Miller said. "I was saying don't bring that in here. Charles said move out of the way and grabbed the man by the belt and pulled him inside. I saw blood on the my floor and said, 'I got to get this s--- out of here.' Charles said, 'Shut up. You're a part of this now.'"

They used bleach, Mr. Clean, a mop and towels to try to get rid of the blood, the statements said. Then they covered Chen's body in a blanket and dumped it in a deserted park. They tried to ignite evidence, according to the statements.

Later, Bryant called and "apologized" for killing Chen in Miller's apartment, Miller told cops. Bryant knew the cleanup "was a lot of work," Miller said. Then Bryant added, "Wasn't it fun what we did to that guy?"

Bryant's lawyer, Brian Perskin, noted that the statements were written by police investigators.

"You think it's tough for two detectives to get a 16-year-old kid to sign a piece of paper?" he asked. "Charles didn't do it. How could he have done all this without a drop of blood on him?"

Miller's attorney declined to comment.

Miller and Bryant, who were ordered held without bail by Queens Supreme Court Justice Robert Hanophy, face 25 years to life in prison if convicted. They are charged with murder, robbery, evidence tampering and other counts.

"All we wanted to do was rob him," Bryant told cops. "I didn't mean for anybody to die."

[moJo]

if hate crime legislation does not apply to this - what's the point of having it at all???
what is the criteria for it to be ruled a hate crime?

:frown:

[kasia]

i just spoke with a NY district attorney who worked on this case and he said that you have to be over 18 to be charged with murder 1. and that hate crime legislation will not be applied b/c it is too difficult to prove.

which proves my point exactly. if we can't prove that this case was motivated by hate (calling a Chinese restaurant), we will never be able to prove it in future cases. let's just get rid of hate crime legislation altogether.

[hooligan]

: ( what can we do? i mean it's difficult to prove but we still gotta try.

[draconisz]

NEW YORK (AP) -- Two 16-year-olds accused of robbing a Chinese food deliveryman and then beating and stabbing him to death have pleaded innocent to second-degree murder.

Prosecutors charge that Nayquan Miller and Charles Bryant killed 18-year-old Huang Chen with a baseball bat and a knife on Feb. 13 and dumped his body in a lake in a Queens park.

They pleaded innocent to charges of second-degree murder, robbery and tampering with physical evidence at their arraignment in State Supreme Court in Queens on Thursday, and their attorneys declined comment.

The teenagers were ordered held without bail until a May 27 hearing.

If convicted, they could face up to 25 years to life in prison.

Sound familiar? (http://yellowworld.org/article/2/19.html)


Thanks for posting this. I had heard about the incident and couldn't get more information. I posted this at my forum. A very sad, frightening situation. To think such intolerance exists in certain communities. Does anyone know if this was classified as a hate crime yet?

[Irezumi Kiss]

it saddens me that New York's Asian community has not acted more vigorously to this outrage. Acting like sheep in the face of such racist bloodletting can only result in more innocents entering the slaughterhouse.
I was thinking the same thing. This should have been on a front page at the very least. I only found out about it while casually flipping thru the paper and I was shocked, to say the least.

Being that this isn't the first time it's happened, I am really surprised there isn't more of a focus on this, especially since it is obviously racial in nature. That Black bouncer that got shanked by a Chinese guy over a cigarette in a club last year got more press than this.

[kasia]

LA Korean Man Shoots & Kills Carjacker - Charged with First Degree Murder & Faces 50 years-Life (http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=15278&page=1)

someone please compare these two 2004 cases and tell me if anything is wrong with this picture.

Does anyone know if this was classified as a hate crime yet?

nope - the way the case is heading - it sounds like it won't be unless asian groups around the nation speak up. and even then - who knows?

: ( what can we do? i mean it's difficult to prove but we still gotta try.

let's discuss for now. i think we should all send letters. either that, or YW should draft a letter & all of us should work together on getting as many organizations to be signatories as possible.

we should pack that courtroom every single day of the trial. we should hold up signs outside the courthouse each day during the lunch and break. the media should be forced to focus on this issue.

we should start planning a nationwide candlelight vigil on the day of their judgment/conviction.

[draconisz]

LA Korean Man Shoots & Kills Carjacker - Charged with First Degree Murder & Faces 50 years-Life (http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=15278&page=1)

someone please compare these two 2004 cases and tell me if anything is wrong with this picture.



nope - the way the case is heading - it sounds like it won't be unless asian groups around the nation speak up. and even then - who knows?

Well, Kasia. . .in that case perhaps there are some other communities willing to speak up also. I will definitely post information at my forums.

Thanks again for the article.

[SunWuKong]

hey waitaminute... i thought it was impossible for blacks to be racist...?

[draconisz]

hey waitaminute... i thought it was impossible for blacks to be racist...?

Racist? Well, yeah. . .that's my belief, "Blacks" cannot be racist. But I thought we were talking about "hate" crimes. "Blacks" can hate. . .I will get on any witness stand. . .and swear any oath. I've seen it. . .in my own "Black" community.

[kasia]

Racist? Well, yeah. . .that's my belief, "Blacks" cannot be racist. But I thought we were talking about "hate" crimes. "Blacks" can hate. . .I will get on any witness stand. . .and swear any oath. I've seen it. . .in my own "Black" community.

well, this isn't the time to argue over semantics or abstract concepts.

i hope that our communities will be able to work together to make the statement that such an act is not tolerable.

[draconisz]

well, this isn't the time to argue over semantics or abstract concepts.

i hope that our communities will be able to work together to make the statement that such an act is not tolerable.

Me too, Kasia.

[kasia]

some info on NY's Hate Crime Legislation

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:
February 13, 1997

Governor Pataki Announces "Hate Crimes Act of 1997"

Anti-Semitic Graffiti in Mamaroneck Covered by Legislation

Governor George E. Pataki today proposed "The Hate Crimes Act of 1997," legislation designed to strengthen state law to provide clear recognition of the gravity of hate crimes and the importance of preventing them in the future. The legislation defines the term "hate crime" and is patterned after model legislation drafted by the Anti-Defamation League.

"We have made great strides fighting crime in New York State over the past two years, but more needs to be done to combat violent crime in all its forms," Governor Pataki said.

"Assaulting a man or a woman because they are a member of a particular ethnic group or religious minority is an attack on all New Yorkers," the Governor said. "People who act on hate and destroy property by painting swastikas on buildings, or burning down churches because of the color of the people who worship there, need to know they will face swift and severe consequences."

Criminal acts involving violence, intimidation, and destruction of property based upon bias and prejudice has become more commonplace in New York State in recent years. In these crimes, commonly referred to as "hate crimes," victims are intentionally selected, in whole or in part because of their race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, age, disability or sexual orientation.

The Governor was joined at the Holocaust Commission by New York State Attorney General Dennis C. Vacco, Westchester County District Attorney Jeanine Pirro and representatives of several civil rights groups.

"Hate crimes do more than threaten the safety and welfare of all citizens, they disrupt entire communities and cannot be tolerated by a civilized society," Governor Pataki said. "These heinous acts are so inherently destructive to society that they deserve special consideration under the law."

A person commits a hate crime when he or she commits a "specified offense," such as assault, murder, kidnaping and arson, against an individual because of their race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, age, disability or sexual orientation. The legislation enhances penalties by raising the specified offense one category higher when it is a misdemeanor or a class C, D, or E felony.

"Violence and criminal conduct that is motivated by hatred or bias is designed to instill within its intended victims fear, as well as harm. It tears at the fabric of a society built on ideals of tolerance and acceptance of diversity," Attorney General Dennis C. Vacco said. "Governor Pataki's proposal sends a clear and needed signal that New York has 'zero tolerance' for hateful intolerance."

Westchester County District Attorney Jeanine Pirro said, "This is a law enforcement issue, the type of injury that occurs in hate crimes go well beyond the individual who is the intended victim. It is great to see Governor Pataki take the lead on this important issue."

"We loudly applaud the efforts of Governor Pataki. We will need his hard work and continued dedication to make this bill a reality," said Adam Segall, Director of the New York Region Anti Defamation League, and Chairman of the New York State Hate Crimes Coalition.

"As responsible citizens we cannot allow a climate of hate to flourish in our society," Dennis Walcott, President and CEO of the New York Urban League said. "Hate does not know any boundary, therefore we must stomp out hate wherever and whenever it rears its' ugly head. I applaud Governor Pataki in his efforts to eliminate hate in New York State."

"Governor Pataki's introduction of The Hate Crimes Bill is an important step forward for the protection of lesbian and gay New Yorkers," said Christine Quinn, of the gay and Lesbian Anti Violence Project. "On a daily basis, lesbian and gay New Yorkers are targets of hatred and homophobia simply because of their sexual orientation. Passage of this bill will send a strong message that hate crimes will not be tolerated in New York State."


not sure if that passed or not because:


March 24, 1999
Union to seek law on 'hate' crime
The statewide union will lobby for the passage of state laws that "strenuously punish such acts as hate and bias-related crimes" in the wake of two horrific murders that have sparked outrage nationwide.

United Teachers Board of Directors voted in early March to add a "hate-crimes bill" to the union's legislative agenda in response to a resolution by NYSUT First Vice President Antonia Cortese.

She noted two tragedies that have brought this issue to national attention: the murder of African-American James Byrd Jr. by a white supremacist in Jasper, Texas; and the murder of Matthew Shepard, a student at the University of Wyoming, who was targeted because he was gay. New York is one of only 10 states lacking laws on bias-related crimes.

but then along came this:

NEW YORK

PENAL LAW
PART FOUR. ADMINISTRATIVE PROVISIONS
TITLE Y. HATE CRIMES ACT OF 2000

§ 485.05. Hate crimes

1. A person commits a hate crime when he or she commits a specified offense and either:

(a) intentionally selects the person against whom the offense is committed or intended to be committed in whole or in substantial part because of a belief or perception regarding the race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability or sexual orientation of a person, regardless of whether the belief or perception is correct, or

(b) intentionally commits the act or acts constituting the offense in whole or in substantial part because of a belief or perception regarding the race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability or sexual orientation of a person, regardless of whether the belief or perception is correct.

2. Proof of race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability or sexual orientation of the defendant, the victim or of both the defendant and the victim does not, by itself, constitute legally sufficient evidence satisfying the people's burden under paragraph (a) or (b) of subdivision one of this section

3. A "specified offense" is an offense defined by any of the following provisions of this chapter: section 120.00 (assault in the third degree); section 120.05 (assault in the second degree); section 120.10 (assault in the first degree); section 120.12 (aggravated assault upon a person less than eleven years old); section 120.13 (menacing in the first degree); section 120.14 (menacing in the second degree); section 120.15 (menacing in the third degree); section 120.20 (reckless endangerment in the second degree); section 120.25 (reckless endangerment in the first degree); subdivision one of section 125.15 (manslaughter in the second degree); subdivision one, two or four of section 125.20 (manslaughter in the first degree); section 125.25 (murder in the second degree); section 120.45 (stalking in the fourth degree); section 120.50 (stalking in the third degree); section 120.55 (stalking in the second degree); section 120.60 (stalking in the first degree); subdivision one of section 130.35 (rape in the first degree); subdivision one of section 130.50 (sodomy in the first degree); subdivision one of section 130.65 (sexual abuse in the first degree); paragraph (a) of subdivision one of section 130.67 (aggravated sexual abuse in the second degree); paragraph (a) of subdivision one of section 130.70 (aggravated sexual abuse in the first degree); section 135.05 (unlawful imprisonment in the second degree); section 135.10 (unlawful imprisonment in the first degree); section 135.20 (kidnapping in the second degree); section 135.25 (kidnapping in the first degree); section 135.60 (coercion in the second degree); section 135.65 (coercion in the first degree); section 140.10 (criminal trespass in the third degree); section 140.15 (criminal trespass in the second degree); section 140.17 (criminal trespass in the first degree); section 140.20 (burglary in the third degree); section 140.25 (burglary in the second degree); section 140.30 (burglary in the first degree); section 145.00 (criminal mischief in the fourth degree); section 145.05 (criminal mischief in the third degree); section 145.10 (criminal mischief in the second degree); section 145.12 (criminal mischief in the first degree); section 150.05 (arson in the fourth degree); section 150.10 (arson in the third degree); section 150.15 (arson in the second degree); section 150.20 (arson in the first degree); section 155.25 (petit larceny); section 155.30 (grand larceny in the fourth degree); section 155.35 (grand larceny in the third degree); section 155.40 (grand larceny in the second degree); section 155.42 (grand larceny in the first degree); section 160.05 (robbery in the third degree); section 160.10 (robbery in the second degree); section 160.15 (robbery in the first degree); section 240.25 (harassment in the first degree); subdivision one, two or four of section 240.30 (aggravated harassment in the second degree); or any attempt or conspiracy to commit any of the foregoing offenses.

4. For purposes of this section:

(a) the term "age" means sixty years old or more;

(b) the term "disability" means a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits a major life activity.

§ 485.10. Sentencing

1. When a person is convicted of a hate crime pursuant to this article, and the specified offense is a violent felony offense, as defined in section 70.02 of this chapter, the hate crime shall be deemed a violent felony offense.

2. When a person is convicted of a hate crime pursuant to this article and the specified offense is a misdemeanor or a class C, D or E felony, the hate crime shall be deemed to be one category higher than the specified offense the defendant committed, or one category higher than the offense level applicable to the defendant's conviction for an attempt or conspiracy to commit a specified offense, whichever is applicable.

3. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, when a person is convicted of a hate crime pursuant to this article and the specified offense is a class B felony:

(a) the maximum term of the indeterminate sentence must be at least six years if the defendant is sentenced pursuant to section 70.00 of this chapter;

(b) the term of the determinate sentence must be at least eight years if the defendant is sentenced pursuant to section 70.02 of this chapter;

(c) the term of the determinate sentence must be at least twelve years if the defendant is sentenced pursuant to section 70.04 of this chapter;

(d) the maximum term of the indeterminate sentence must be at least four years if the defendant is sentenced pursuant to section 70.05 of this chapter; and

(e) the maximum term of the indeterminate sentence or the term of the determinate sentence must be at least ten years if the defendant is sentenced pursuant to section 70.06 of this chapter.

4. Notwithstanding any other provision of law, when a person is convicted of a hate crime pursuant to this article and the specified offense is a class A-1 felony, the minimum period of the indeterminate sentence shall be not less than twenty years.

[kasia]

why have another person call if they weren't plotting something?

Dennis Duggan
Locals, Family Mourn Teen 'Angel'

February 18, 2004

They had become close friends over the years. The Indian woman and the Chinese youth. They traded stories and jokes and when one of them came into the other's store there was no talk of paying.

"He gave me Chinese food, I gave him fried chicken," Carmen Rempersad recalled yesterday, her eyes flooding with tears.

Rempersad owns the tiny fried chicken shop next door to Ming Garden where Huang Chen worked until he was murdered Friday night, beaten with a bat, stabbed, stuffed into a cardboard box and then thrown into a nearby pond.

"He was an angel," Rempersad said of Chen, 18, whose death has left fear among the shopkeepers along Guy R. Brewer Boulevard in South Jamaica.

"I dreamt about him last night and it was though he were alive," said this distraught mother of two. "He stepped aside so one of his sisters could go to college and then he was going as well. He wanted to help his family with the business.

"I stopped delivering food last year," she said. "It's too dangerous in this neighborhood."

On the sidewalk outside her store yesterday afternoon, Chen's 21-year-old sister, Yan, choked with sobs trying to explain how much she missed her brother. She stood in front of the all too familiar collection of flowers and votive candles piled against the window of her family's store in memory of her brother.

"He was the only brother I had," she told Queens Borough President Helen Marshall, who was visiting the restaurant with other politicians.

When I talked to Chen at her family's home in Woodside yesterday evening, she was still struggling with her emotions.

"We loved him," she said. "My family came to America eight years ago to find a better life. We all worked in the store from morning until the following morning and I don't understand why such an evil thing has happened to us."

Yesterday this hard-working Chinese immigrant family kept their small takeout store open even as they planned for their son's funeral in Chinatown on Monday. Grief is a luxury you cannot afford when you live day-to-day as the Chen family does.

It was the manner of Huang Chen's death that shocked his family.

Police say the teens used a familiar ploy, having a young girl call the takeout store for food at 10 p.m. Friday.

When Chen arrived by car he was met in the lobby and then led upstairs to a seventh-floor apartment where Nayquan Miller, 16, and his friends allegedly set upon him using a baseball bat, knives and a razor.

Chen was bludgeoned and stabbed to death, his attackers ignoring his pleas for mercy. His money was stolen, his body was stuffed into a cardboard box and placed in a small laundry cart. He was then taken downstairs, where he was loaded into his own car and taken to a Queens park where his body was dumped in a pond.

The Rochdale Village apartment had become an abattoir.

Miller and Charles Bryant, 16, have been charged with murder and robbery and face up to 25 years in jail in convicted.

They are being held without bail pending a March 11 court hearing. If they were 18 they likely would be facing the death penalty.

Police are said to be close to arresting two other accomplices, the young girl who called for food and a teenage boy who is known to police.

There have been several other homicides in the area, according to City Councilman Allan Jennings, and Friday night's murder has ramped up the fears of those who live and work in the area.

Deborah Mangum, an owner of Springfield Liquor a few doors from Ming Garden, expressed that fear yesterday.

"We stopped delivering last year," she said. "It doesn't make any sense. It's too dangerous."
Copyright © 2004, Newsday, Inc.

http://gallery.yellowworld.org/albums/userpics/10008/Huang%20chen.jpg


Eighteen-year-old Huang Chen

Cops: 2 Deliver Death To Queens Man
By WILLIAM J. GORTA, HASANI GITTENS and ZACH HABERMAN
February 15, 2004, New York Post

A Chinese deliveryman in Queens was robbed, viciously beaten and stabbed to death by a pair of 16-year-old thugs who then dumped his lifeless body in a park, cops said.

The body was dumped Friday night, but went undiscovered until yesterday morning.

Huang Chen, 19, was found dead in a pond inside Brookville Park at Brookville and 147th avenues at 8:45 a.m. with a plastic bag over his head, a law-enforcement source said.

His head had been beaten, possibly with a baseball bat, and he had several stab wounds in his chest, cops said.

The teen was making a delivery from his family's Guy Brewer Boulevard restaurant, Ming Garden, to a 127th Avenue apartment in Rochdale Village on Friday night and never returned to work.

The restaurant did not hear from Chen for hours and called the cops, who went to the address to which he made his last delivery.

There they found Nayquan Miller with blood on his shirt, trying to wipe away blood splattered on the apartment's ceiling with bleach, sources said.

Soon after cops starting questioning Miller, he gave up his friend, Charles Bryant, who allegedly had a hand in the ferocious attack. Bryant was later picked up at his Rosedale home.

The two have been charged with murder, robbery, criminal possession of a weapon and tampering with evidence.

Cops removed a number of items from Miller's apartment - including a knife, a baseball bat and other objects - which cops believe could have been used in the attack.

"He's just a quiet kid. I'm shocked," said Annette Kellerman, 46, a neighbor of Miller's who said that her husband had noticed a blood trail on a ramp leading up to a building side entrance.

While red, white and blue memorial candles burned bright outside Chen's family restaurant, one city politician said he is tired of seeing immigrant workers attacked and is calling for immediate recourse in the teen's death.

"I am going to be looking for a swift and complete action by law-enforcement agencies to send a strong message that we're not going to have open season on hard-working immigrant workers in this city," said City Councilman John Liu of Queens.

Liu told The Post deliverymen such as Chen are "easy marks" who are repeatedly placed in situations that are "potentially dangerous."

[yoMAMA]

how sad a promising future cut short by senseless acts..................... :frown:

[kasia]

it would help if we could get everyone to keep their eyes and ears open on this - to see if any statements are made by the defendants indicating a racial motive. anything that you may hear about that may show or even imply that race was a factor in this murder.

it would also help if there are some NY YWers who would be willing to attend the hearings/trials and keep us informed - it's likely that all the crucial info that we need to determine if this ought to be a hate crime would be made there.

and, as a clarification of the statute (in layman's terms): it is a hate crime if -

1) they selected him because they hate Chinese people

2) they selected him because Chinese people are easy to rob

3) they selected him for any reason related to him being Chinese

be on the lookout for any facts that show the above three things.

(note: how the courts interpret the statute is an entirely different story.)

[yoMAMA]

Kasia, that's a great idea.

[robotic]

"All we wanted to do was rob him," Bryant told cops. "I didn't mean for anybody to die."

one wrong results in an even more graver mistake. is the cause or the reason behind the murder clear?

hey waitaminute... i thought it was impossible for blacks to be racist...?

o_o...unless this is sarcastic, sunwukong!.....
but you don't necessarily have to be a non-discriminated race to pull a hate crime. (if it is one)

[deez nuts]

hey waitaminute... i thought it was impossible for blacks to be racist...?


obviously years upon years of being put down allows for some freebies.

[robotic]

it is senseless and disturbing that they killed him to rob him. and in such a brutal way. reading through the past few posts made me very sad.

rest in peace, huang chen,

[Cipherous]

Bryant knew the cleanup "was a lot of work," Miller said. Then Bryant added, "Wasn't it fun what we did to that guy?"
What the fuck kinda statement was that?

I didnt mean to kill the guy...I just wanted to rob him but I had fun doing it?

[Oblivious]

it's heartbreaking reading the articles.
i just can't believe any human being,
let alone 16 year olds, would commit
such a heinous, vicious act. no one
should ever deserve to go through
this. unfortunately, Huang Chen
did. my sympathy and prayers
go out to his family & friends.
:frown:


have the 16 year olds been convicted yet?
is the case/trial still happening?
is there anything we can do here (since we don't live in NY)?

[lethal]

BTW:
http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=13921
and
http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=13139
and
http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=2774

The last link includes my analysis of the New York homicide statute.

[kasia]

andy - do you know the local groups who are already involved in/watching this case? maybe YW can contact them and offer our assistance.

[kasia]

pleading innocent, how the heck are they going to try to get away with this? at least a reduction in jail term, but i honestly hope they throw the book at them. is there anything we can do? i mean in terms of bringing visibility to this issue or educating people about this case?

good point. this has got me thinking...

if they're charged with 2nd degree, you would think that their attorneys would have them plead down to manslaughter or something (right?). i don't know - i'm not that experienced. however, that they are pleading innocent seems to indicate that they have some sort of defense in mind - so what would it be? i hope the cops remembered to Mirandize those kids - otherwise their confessions may not come in, right? was the search legal? otherwise, none of the evidence (e.g., blood on the walls, etc.) would be admissiable. etc. etc.

there is absolutely NO news on this - we're all left in the dark. i want to know what's going on.

[ism]

The conservative media has picked up the story and is spinning it as the "PC Media ignoring a racist murder." A couple blogs show support for the maximum penalty. I don't really see any organized efforts, but seems there are people definitely interested in seeing justice done.

[lethal]

andy - do you know the local groups who are already involved in/watching this case? maybe YW can contact them and offer our assistance.
I haven't heard anything in the legal community, but I have a NYRAC meeting next week. Maybe something's up, but NYRAC's focused on its protest of Details tomorrow. Jing says he hasn't heard anything in the political community except an e-mail from Councilman Liu.

[draconisz]

The conservative media has picked up the story and is spinning it as the "PC Media ignoring a racist murder." A couple blogs show support for the maximum penalty. I don't really see any organized efforts, but seems there are people definitely interested in seeing justice done.

There may be some people who are interested in the punishment of these two. But I can't find a thing on the net about the progress of the investigation.

[yoMAMA]

i may be wrong....but i think in cases of henious violence and killing, even minors can be charged with 1st degree murder.

[kasia]

A broad call for justice
Officials and family of slain restaurant worker speak out as 2 teens plead not guilty to Feb. 13 stabbing
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BY HERBERT LOWE
STAFF WRITER

April 9, 2004


Two Queens teenagers pleaded not guilty to murder yesterday in the fatal stabbing of a Chinese food deliveryman, as the victim's family and three dozen supporters looked on in a packed courtroom.

Before Nayquan Miller and Charles Bryant, both 16, were arraigned in State Supreme Court in Kew Gardens, elected city and state leaders and other Asian community leaders stood with the parents and sisters of Huang Chen, 18, to demand justice.

"They are evil, they deserve no mercy. I want them to be punished forever," Chen's sister, Yvonne Chen, 22, said of the defendants at a news conference outside the courthouse.

"They not only took away my brother's life," Chen said, "they also took away my mom's health and my father's business. You don't know how much pain we've gone through. Every [day] is torture for us. I want justice to be as swift as possible."

Authorities said that on Feb. 13, when Huang Chen arrived at Miller's apartment, at 168-24 127th Ave. in Rochdale Village, with food from his father's Ming Garden restaurant on Guy R. Brewer Boulevard in South Jamaica, Miller and Bryant robbed him, beat him with a baseball bat and stabbed him to death.

The victim was killed even though he pleaded with Miller and Bryant, of 254-39 147th Dr. in Rosedale, to take his money and spare his life, authorities said.

The pair is also accused of dumping Chen's body three miles away in a pond at Brookville Park, near 147th Avenue. Investigators are still searching for another suspect believed to be involved in the incident, police said.

Yesterday, the defendants were charged with second-degree murder, robbery, tampering with physical evidence and weapons charges. If convicted, each faces 25 years to life in prison.

Justice Robert Hanophy ordered that the pair be held without bail until their next court date on May 27.

Attorneys for Bryant and Miller, Jonathan Fink and Christopher Renfroe, respectively, declined to comment after the arraignment.

City Councilman John Liu and Assemb. Barry Grodenchik, who are both Flushing Democrats, leaders of community groups and other supporters sat in Hanophy's courtroom with Chen's father, Xin Shou, 46, mother, Lin Shui Yin, 45, and sisters, Yvonne and Summer, 20.

Outside the courthouse, Liu explained that since the murder, the family has sold the restaurant. He said that the community would continue to monitor the case to ensure the defendants receive the maximum punishment.

i wonder why they sold the restaurant. bad memories? or to pay for burial costs?

and where are the killer's parents?

[yoMAMA]

i wonder why they sold the restaurant. bad memories? or to pay for burial costs?

probably both.

[younggiftedandblack]

Being that this isn't the first time it's happened, I am really surprised there isn't more of a focus on this, especially since it is obviously racial in nature. That Black bouncer that got shanked by a Chinese guy over a cigarette in a club last year got more press than this.

Because of that one case, if I was the prosecution I wouldn't attempt to introduce race into this one.

[robotic]

Because of that one case, if I was the prosecution I wouldn't attempt to introduce race into this one.

could it probably be because the killers found it more convenient to kill a chinese deliverboy (than anyone else)?

[missmeow]

I'm disgusted. This is obviously a hate crime. They didn't call a soul food delivery--they called a Chinese delivery because they thought it would be an easy target. Duh. What the hell is going on with the prosecution? Can't you just try some charges and see if they stick?

[Nadjanema]

I say they should be hanged. :biggrin:

[kmeister1]

I've read the entire thread and agree that the crime was indeed heinous. However, I don't see the race or "hate crime" issue in it. A crime in which the perp is one race and the victim is another is not necessarily a hate crime. It's a terrible thing that's befallen the boy and his surviving family but I agree with a previous poster: no good can come in introducing race as an issue in this case.

KMeister1

[hooligan]

I say they should be hanged. :biggrin:
that's pretty insensitive and pretty much using hate to put away hate. i don't believe that it's right of you to say anything like this.

[kitty]

i dunno... the jury's still out for me on whether or not it's a hate crime. i need to find out more about the case.

[yoMAMA]

this case has me undecided on my opinions of death penalty....again......

i mean....the crime is so henious! the perpertrators has to be punished serverely, that's for sure.

[kasia]

I've read the entire thread and agree that the crime was indeed heinous. However, I don't see the race or "hate crime" issue in it. A crime in which the perp is one race and the victim is another is not necessarily a hate crime. It's a terrible thing that's befallen the boy and his surviving family but I agree with a previous poster: no good can come in introducing race as an issue in this case.

KMeister1

is that so? even if it is a hate crime?

reading this entire thread & even all the articles out there will not tell you whether or not this was a hate crime. as of now, it's uncertain. unless you know the boys personally and have inside information on their motive and intent behind this crime, you can't say that it isn't a hate crime.

and i do not trust the NYPD to fully investigate into whether or not it is. for all i know, they're done with the investigation and have handed the case over to the d.a.

[robotic]

nevertheless, i feel that minorities should not be exempted from recieving punishment for their crime because of their race, status or age. i think because the court is dealing with minorities at this stage, it's probably taking them a lot longer to deliver the "appropiate" punishment.

[yoMAMA]

the victim is a minority, too.

[Banana]

It has been embedded into the American psyche that African Americans can't commit race based crimes. I'm sure the prosecution knows this and is the sole reason why this wouldn't be attempted.

I must disagree with all the African American posters here that don't think this is a racial crime. It is. The reason why is because they singled out Chinese takeout eateries because they know Chinese people are easy victims because they 1.) Don't speak out against crimes and 2.) many have a language barrier. Now, if you single out a target that even considers race as a factor, it's a race based crime.

I might be ignorant but I have yet to find a case where blacks have been convicted of a race based crime against another minority or whites. This sole American idea that blacks can only receive racism and not give it really irritates me to no end.

[draconisz]

I've read the entire thread and agree that the crime was indeed heinous. However, I don't see the race or "hate crime" issue in it. A crime in which the perp is one race and the victim is another is not necessarily a hate crime. It's a terrible thing that's befallen the boy and his surviving family but I agree with a previous poster: no good can come in introducing race as an issue in this case.

KMeister1

???? He was targetted because of his race and/or culture. I am not sure why this wouldn't be given the same consideration other crimes of this caliber.

Certain people believe that hate crime stats can be used to provide valuable information. I thought that was the one of the reasons behind the legislation.

It has been embedded into the American psyche that African Americans can't commit race based crimes. I'm sure the prosecution knows this and is the sole reason why this wouldn't be attempted.

I must disagree with all the African American posters here that don't think this is a racial crime. It is. The reason why is because they singled out Chinese takeout eateries because they know Chinese people are easy victims because they 1.) Don't speak out against crimes and 2.) many have a language barrier. Now, if you single out a target that even considers race as a factor, it's a race based crime.

I might be ignorant but I have yet to find a case where blacks have been convicted of a race based crime against another minority or whites. This sole American idea that blacks can only receive racism and not give it really irritates me to no end.

Well, I live in Chicago. We have plenty of "Blacks" who have been convicted of hate crimes. Not all IR/IC crime is a hate crime. Some non-"Blacks" are robbed for money or are victims of violence because of their proximity to poor "Black" neighborhoods.

But I do believe that if the information provided by the police is true, this should considered as being a hate crime. Not all African-Americans who post or lurk here agree with Kmeister's assessment.

[kitty]

I honestly don't know that we can say one way or another. The victim may have been targetted for his race, or he may not have. It's not a given yet -- none of the articles have actually had any information on how the perps CHOSE their victim, merely that he was chosen.

Besides which, a hate crime is defined as a crime in which the main or mostly main reason for the crime was because of racial hatred. Like... "I shot him because I hate blacks, but then I took his wallet 'cuz it was lying there on the ground"... it's not so cut and dry in this case that the perps had an existing hatred for Chinese people, or that they had an existing motivation to merely kill *somebody* for money.

I'm sure racial discrimination or prejudgement may have had *something* to do with this case, but it doesn't necessarily qualify it is a hate crime, per se, until there's more evidence. (in my opinion)

[Banana]

There has been a long history of Chinese food deliverymen being abused because they're perceived as easy targets. I don't see Luis from the local pizza joint getting murdered every few weeks. The people that commit these murders have taken the emasculated Asian male to heart.

This brings me to another point. What do you think would happen if Chinese restaurants refused to deliver to black neighborhoods because they fear for their safety? Do you think that African American organizations would understand or would they label these establishments as being racist?

It's very similar when you compared them to the cabbies in NYC that would get robbed, beaten, and killed whenever they drove into black neighborhoods so they refused to pick up black patrons. Additionally, they said that they would get mistreated frequently by black riders.

Hell, if I was in the same boat, I sure as hell would rather be labeled as "racist" than be dead or hurt but if anyone dares fine me because of it, I would curse people off.

[draconisz]

There has been a long history of Chinese food deliverymen being abused because they're perceived as easy targets. I don't see Luis from the local pizza joint getting murdered every few weeks. The people that commit these murders have taken the emasculated Asian male to heart.

This brings me to another point. What do you think would happen if Chinese restaurants refused to deliver to black neighborhoods because they fear for their safety? Do you think that African American organizations would understand or would they label these establishments as being racist?

It's very similar when you compared them to the cabbies in NYC that would get robbed, beaten, and killed whenever they drove into black neighborhoods so they refused to pick up black patrons. Additionally, they said that they would get mistreated frequently by black riders.

Hell, if I was in the same boat, I sure as hell would rather be labeled as "racist" than be dead or hurt but if anyone dares fine me because of it, I would curse people off.

Well, all I can say is, I understand your view. And I respect it. You are an honest human being. But not everyone agrees with your assessment. Indeed, many people look at the same information. . .and come to different conclusions.

But thanks for saying this.

:)

[achtungbaby]

Besides which, a hate crime is defined as a crime in which the main or mostly main reason for the crime was because of racial hatred. Like... "I shot him because I hate blacks, but then I took his wallet 'cuz it was lying there on the ground"... it's not so cut and dry in this case that the perps had an existing hatred for Chinese people, or that they had an existing motivation to merely kill *somebody* for money.

I didn't realize the definition for hate crime was so restrictive, as in, a hate crime is only such when the perpetrator absolutely hates the victim because of his/her race.

[537]

eh?

A hate crime is considered such, pursuant to:


NEW YORK

PENAL LAW
PART FOUR. ADMINISTRATIVE PROVISIONS
TITLE Y. HATE CRIMES ACT OF 2000

§ 485.05. Hate crimes

1. A person commits a hate crime when he or she commits a specified offense and either:

(a) intentionally selects the person against whom the offense is committed or intended to be committed in whole or in substantial part because of a belief or perception regarding the race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability or sexual orientation of a person, regardless of whether the belief or perception is correct, or

(b) intentionally commits the act or acts constituting the offense in whole or in substantial part because of a belief or perception regarding the race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability or sexual orientation of a person, regardless of whether the belief or perception is correct.


So in essence, it shall be considered a hate crime if the suspects commit a qualifying act (first degree robbery, first degree murder) on any belief or perception regarding Chinese people. If the perception was that Chinese deliverymen are not well equipped to defend themselves or would not report the crime, I believe that qualifies as a New York hate crime.

[kitty]

I didn't realize the definition for hate crime was so restrictive, as in, a hate crime is only such when the perpetrator absolutely hates the victim because of his/her race.

well that was the understanding that i got when researching this case, but i'm also not a lawyer. however, from what i understand, the definition also varies from state to state.

eh?

A hate crime is considered such, pursuant to:



So in essence, it shall be considered a hate crime if the suspects commit a qualifying act (first degree robbery, first degree murder) on any belief or perception regarding Chinese people. If the perception was that Chinese deliverymen are not well equipped to defend themselves or would not report the crime, I believe that qualifies as a New York hate crime.

right, that would make it a hate crime, if they had specifically targetted a chinese man because of this belief, but there hasn't been much evidence to suggest that. after all, the mere fact that they called a chinese restaurant is rather circumstantial in trying to prove this, and they don't live in a neighbourhood to which many restaurants deliver. a few articles that i read indicated that most of the local restaurants didn't deliver, and one article quoted a resident of the area saying that most of the residents were fond of ming garden because it was pretty much the only one willing to deliver.

hence, they may have called the restaurant out of accessiblity rather than any preconceived racial notions.

[younggiftedandblack]

I still contend that making this a hate crime case may just blow up in their faces. And it has nothing to do with the fact I don't believe that blacks or any non-whites can't be racists.

All it takes is one juror who remembers the bouncer case from last year to taint the jury pool. The next thing you know there's a mistrail, and aquital or hung jury.

[Nadjanema]

Well, for stuff like this, I like to bring life insurance. And the best life insurance? why, a .22, my friends. :biggrin:

[Banana]

"It's not what you know, it's what you can prove."

Though there isn't any proof, we all know that these individuals singled out a Chinese restaurant based on racial stereotypes.

As to Younggifted, I agree that you'll have more idiocy thrown in when a hate crime suggestion is thrown in. This is another reason why prosecutors are reluctant to use that as a modifier to a case. They, for the most part, just want another victory notch on their belt and could care less about what's right. It's best to just have them convict these two for murder and be given the maximum sentence possible.

Now, regardless if they get charged with it being a hate crime, my point to this thread is that this was, indeed, a hate crime.

[lethal]

The fact that a Chinese restaurant was targeted was no accident. A recent article in the New York Post described a new inner-city sport known as "Chink Bashing" which involves racist, premeditated assaults and worse on Chinese delivery boys.
I've searched all over and cannot find any such article in the New York Post. Is it made up?

[draconisz]

I've searched all over and cannot find any such article in the New York Post. Is it made up?

Well. . .it wouldn't be too hard to believe that this happens in some parts of the inner city. Many "Blacks" have taken stereotypes of Asians to heart. Not necessarily the ones that are talked about here, however.

[deez nuts]

I've searched all over and cannot find any such article in the New York Post. Is it made up?

they mentioned it on the local news once too. this was awhile ago.

[lethal]

Well. . .it wouldn't be too hard to believe that this happens in some parts of the inner city. Many "Blacks" have taken stereotypes of Asians to heart. Not necessarily the ones that are talked about here, however.
Oh, I know it happens, I was just looking for the article cited by FrontPage Mag. I'd rather read the original than a depiction of the original.

they mentioned it on the local news once too. this was awhile ago.
Again, I don't doubt that the described activity happens, I just wanted to find the original Post article. I searched back 15 years and could not find it.

[draconisz]

Oh, I know it happens, I was just looking for the article cited by FrontPage Mag. I'd rather read the original than a depiction of the original.


Again, I don't doubt that the described activity happens, I just wanted to find the original Post article. I searched back 15 years and could not find it.

Oh I hear ya. It's already a topic in my forum. Some "Blacks" folks. . .don't understand that the image of Asians in the media. . .is just an "image". I have gotten into more debates than I can count.

[kasia]

to call it a "hate" crime is a misnomer.

think of it this way - if a black man who loves asian women consistently seeks them out and rapes them, would this not constitute a hate crime because all he has is "love" for them?

the key question is whether they were targeted b/c of their race.

[Chester]

to call it a "hate" crime is a misnomer.

think of it this way - if a black man who loves asian women consistently seeks them out and rapes them, would this not constitute a hate crime because all he has is "love" for them?

the key question is whether they were targeted b/c of their race.Interesting point. The way I have always conceived of hate crimes is that they are crimes that are committed with hate or malice as a prime or substantial motivation. That is, if the motivation to commit the crime is founded in exercising hate, then it's a hate crime.

But if the motivation is to find vulnerable victims -- even if this leads to a race-based pattern -- I don't quite see it as the same thing. Someone picking out a race because they're easier victims strikes me as different from someone who picks out a race because they hate them.

Of course, the end result is pretty much the same.

[achtungbaby]

All it takes is one juror who remembers the bouncer case from last year to taint the jury pool. The next thing you know there's a mistrail, and aquital or hung jury.

I'm not sure what case you're referring to, but just because they didn't charge the perp with a hate crime doesn't mean prosecutors in this case should resist throwing the absolute fucking book at these kids. This isn't about keeping score or anything -- if it was an actual hate crime in that case, by all means, they should have gone for it.

But if the motivation is to find vulnerable victims -- even if this leads to a race-based pattern -- I don't quite see it as the same thing. Someone picking out a race because they're easier victims strikes me as different from someone who picks out a race because they hate them.

I wasn't aware that the law made such a distinction. I mean, do we then have to begin estimating degrees of hate? What if I hate all white people but my hate isn't so outwardly emphatic, it's more just a sort of dismissive, dehumanizing way in which I target them and take them apart?

[Chester]

I wasn't aware that the law made such a distinction.I didn't mean to imply that. I thought I was clear in saying that this was my personal understanding/view.
I mean, do we then have to begin estimating degrees of hate? What if I hate all white people but my hate isn't so outwardly emphatic, it's more just a sort of dismissive, dehumanizing way in which I target them and take them apart?I don't know if it's that grayish. I was just thinking that there's a difference between victimizing a certain group of people because they're "easy prey," versus victimizing that group because you hate them...and that "hate crimes" address the latter dynamic.

[younggiftedandblack]

I'm not sure what case you're referring to, but just because they didn't charge the perp with a hate crime doesn't mean prosecutors in this case should resist throwing the absolute fucking book at these kids. This isn't about keeping score or anything -- if it was an actual hate crime in that case, by all means, they should have gone for it.

This is the case I'm referring to. (http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,183315-1-9,00.html)

There's no evidence to point that it was a hate crime. The point I was making is that unless they have strong enough evidence to support that it was a hate crime other then the fact that the perps are a differnt race then the victim, I wouldn't introduce race into this. It could have negative feedback from people who remeber the above case and the fact that those two perps walked.

[537]

This is the case I'm referring to. (http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,183315-1-9,00.html)

There's no evidence to point that it was a hate crime. The point I was making is that unless they have strong enough evidence to support that it was a hate crime other then the fact that the perps are a differnt race then the victim, I wouldn't introduce race into this. It could have negative feedback from people who remeber the above case and the fact that those two perps walked.


The two cases are completely different. About the only thing that is the same is that one side is asian and the other side was not.

Pay attention:

In the case you cited, both parties involved were in a social setting and an altercation took place regarding a new non-smoking law. If that wasn't different enough, here's the point...after an argument with the men (you know how New York bouncers get, don't you?) the bouncer tried to eject them and was subsequently stabbed in the stomach. I don't even see second degree murder here. I see aggravated assault and manslaughter, of which I quote "occurs without the specific intent to kill, but usually after an act of criminal negligence or some other act resulting in a person's death". Even a manslaughter charge could be construed as a charge unfit for the case, seeing as how real-life bouncers can easily assume the role of being a threat on your life. I admit I have not read the police report, but if I know bouncers, the two suspects in question might have even been acting in self defense. I assume you know the nightclub life and some people's disdain for meathead bouncers, and in turn, the bouncer's attitude towards club patrons.

In this recent case, however, the crime scene was of the suspects' residence where a victim was lured and/or coerced into play.

Premeditation:
[n] (law) thought and intention to commit a crime well in advance of the crime; goes to show criminal intent
[n] planning or plotting in advance of acting

The act of phoning an order from a Chinese delivery establishment speaks volumes of how intentional the murder was. As soon as you see the difference in between the cases here, we've made progress. Now assuming you understand that, we would be able to argue the definition of a hate crime and subsequently apply it to this case.

According to NYC Penal Code,

§ 485.05. A person commits a hate crime when he or she commits a specified offense and either:

(a) intentionally selects the person against whom the offense is committed or intended to be committed in whole or in substantial part because of a belief or perception regarding the race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability or sexual orientation of a person, regardless of whether the belief or perception is correct, or

(b) intentionally commits the act or acts constituting the offense in whole or in substantial part because of a belief or perception regarding the race, color, national origin, ancestry, gender, religion, religious practice, age, disability or sexual orientation of a person, regardless of whether the belief or perception is correct.


Now if the suspects simply targetted a Chinese establishment under the assumption that a Chinese deliveryman would be unable to defend himself and therefore would be the easiest target, we fulfill the very definition of a hate crime, 485.05.a. The case that would need to be established is a mere assumption from the defendants that their victim would be easy prey.


Let's get everything straight here. If these kids were over the age of 18, they would be charged with first degree murder. Premeditation speaks for itself.

[younggiftedandblack]

The two cases are completely different. About the only thing that is the same is that one side is asian and the other side was not.

Pay attention:

In the case you cited, both parties involved were in a social setting and an altercation took place regarding a new non-smoking law. If that wasn't different enough, here's the point...after an argument with the men (you know how New York bouncers get, don't you?) the bouncer tried to eject them and was subsequently stabbed in the stomach. I don't even see second degree murder here. I see aggravated assault and manslaughter, of which I quote "occurs without the specific intent to kill, but usually after an act of criminal negligence or some other act resulting in a person's death". Even a manslaughter charge could be construed as a charge unfit for the case, seeing as how real-life bouncers can easily assume the role of being a threat on your life. I admit I have not read the police report, but if I know bouncers, the two suspects in question might have even been acting in self defense. I assume you know the nightclub life and some people's disdain for meathead bouncers, and in turn, the bouncer's attitude towards club patrons.

In this recent case, however, the crime scene was of the suspects' residence where a victim was lured and/or coerced into play.



The act of phoning an order from a Chinese delivery establishment speaks volumes of how intentional the murder was. As soon as you see the difference in between the cases here, we've made progress. Now assuming you understand that, we would be able to argue the definition of a hate crime and subsequently apply it to this case.

According to NYC Penal Code,




Now if the suspects simply targetted a Chinese establishment under the assumption that a Chinese deliveryman would be unable to defend himself and therefore would be the easiest target, we fulfill the very definition of a hate crime, 485.05.a. The case that would need to be established is a mere assumption from the defendants that their victim would be easy prey.


Let's get everything straight here. If these kids were over the age of 18, they would be charged with first degree murder. Premeditation speaks for itself.

:rolleyes: I know the two cases are different. That's not my point. What I'm saying (again) is that if the prosecution introducing race into this case then they need to have strong enough case to convince the jury (which some will be Afr. Amer.) that these two boys specificly targeted their victim based on his race. And that they need to be careful not to let it get into a big "race" factor that could blow up in their face.

[kimpossible]

As a Jew who lost at least 50 ancestors in the holocaust it saddens me that New York's Asian community has not acted more vigorously to this outrage. Acting like sheep in the face of such racist bloodletting can only result in more innocents entering the slaughterhouse.

I quoted this part of the FrontPage article P.C. Media Ignores Racist Murder. For the NYC crew, would you say this view is fair representation of reactions from non-Asian New Yorkers? It's a scary idea that Asians might be seen as not meeting with a strong enough response.

:rolleyes: I know the two cases are different. That's not my point. What I'm saying (again) is that if the prosecution introducing race into this case then they need to have strong enough case to convince the jury (which some will be Afr. Amer.) that these two boys specificly targeted their victim based on his race. And that they need to be careful not to let it get into a big "race" factor that could blow up in their face.

I'll bite. You specifically mention that some of the jurors will be African American and remember the incident between the Asian clubbers and the AfAm bouncer and that these jurors would 'remember' the case and that the perps walked.

Aside from arguing that race should not be brought up by the prosecution at all, what does the previous case have to do with African American jurors and their interpretation of the facts of this case? I hope you're not insinuating that because the Asian assailants 'walked' in the stabbing of the bouncer that they would apply a sense of injustice from another case to the murder of Huang Chen.

Even if the jurors did not find arguments or evidence that this was a hate crime compelling, that shouldn't preclude applying charges of a hate crime if race or culture was a factor in the selection of a victim. If indeed Asian delivery workers are being increasingly deemed 'good' targets, then it would make even more sense to try it as a hate crime.

[younggiftedandblack]

KP that's exactly what I'm nsinuating. We all know that emotions play a big part in jury decisions and all I'm saying is if the prosecution doesn't have the strong enough evidence to convict on a hate crime, then why take that risk?

Yellowworld isn't the only place on the net where this case was discussed and it was basicly dismissed on someother sites I ran across and the bouncer case was brought up.

[kimpossible]

I guess what I was addressing was not in reaction to your point regarding the strength of the evidence indicating that the selection of the victim fits the definition of a hate crime, rather that what you wrote seems to indicate that there would be an 'eye for an eye' sentiment among black/African-American jurors that would apply a sense of injustice in the stabbing of the AfAm bouncer by Asian American perps and ignore the facts they are presented in order to 'get back' at Asians. That they would let their race and the race of others in another unrelated case dictate their judgment of lack of it in this case.

Even if the AfAm jurors do act as you say, I still disagree with not trying this as a hate crime if it fits the definition of the law in effect. The same for every other crime like it in nature. There's nothing I can do about those jurors might possibly do or think, but Huang Chen is dead, possibly selected because of reasons related to perceptions about his race or ethnicity. We'll have to take a stand on this at some point. I don't see what cowing to the fear that some jury members will act out of racial prejudice or perceptions will accomplish.

edited because these posts were made after three weeks of really strong drugs. :redface:

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I'd usually be more sympathetic and forgiving, but in this case hang the fuckers. I can't imagine how people could rob someone, and then proceed to kill the individual (a complete stranger), even after the individual has begged for his/her life to be spared. To top it all off, it seems premeditated...hate crime or not, they deserve to die.

[kmeister1]

is that so? even if it is a hate crime?

reading this entire thread & even all the articles out there will not tell you whether or not this was a hate crime. as of now, it's uncertain. unless you know the boys personally and have inside information on their motive and intent behind this crime, you can't say that it isn't a hate crime.

and i do not trust the NYPD to fully investigate into whether or not it is. for all i know, they're done with the investigation and have handed the case over to the d.a.

IF it was a hate crime, then the issue of race is relevant. But I just don't see the hate crime angle here. If they had called the victim racial names or targeted him because of his race, that would be different.

KMeister1

I must disagree with all the African American posters here that don't think this is a racial crime. It is. The reason why is because they singled out Chinese takeout eateries because they know Chinese people are easy victims because they 1.) Don't speak out against crimes and 2.) many have a language barrier. Now, if you single out a target that even considers race as a factor, it's a race based crime.

I might be ignorant but I have yet to find a case where blacks have been convicted of a race based crime against another minority or whites. This sole American idea that blacks can only receive racism and not give it really irritates me to no end.

Any notions about what the perps "knew" in this case is purely speculation and doesn't qualify as evidence. And if you check the Justice Department's Hate Crime stats, you'll discover that Blacks are listed as hate crime offenders hundreds of times.

KMeister1

"It's not what you know, it's what you can prove."

Though there isn't any proof, we all know that these individuals singled out a Chinese restaurant based on racial stereotypes.

As to Younggifted, I agree that you'll have more idiocy thrown in when a hate crime suggestion is thrown in. This is another reason why prosecutors are reluctant to use that as a modifier to a case. They, for the most part, just want another victory notch on their belt and could care less about what's right. It's best to just have them convict these two for murder and be given the maximum sentence possible.

Now, regardless if they get charged with it being a hate crime, my point to this thread is that this was, indeed, a hate crime.

I don't understand the logic in those "we all know..." statements; pure speculation passing as fact.

KMeister1

[SunWuKong]

IF it was a hate crime, then the issue of race is relevant. But I just don't see the hate crime angle here. If they had called the victim racial names or targeted him because of his race, that would be different.

in my opinion, they did target him because of his race. it's not the first time something like this happened. but i'll agree that proving in a court of law that they targetted him for his race will be difficult.

by the way, this isn't the first time Chinese deliverymen have been victimised.

http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cityscape/2003/delivery-befidi.asp

[robotic]

yes, it could have been a motive and then yet again, always harder to prove. even if the deliveryman does escape the attack, he will usually be blamed for the incident than (rather) the attacker. i think that is what happened in vincent chin's case ;_; but it makes my heart more numb thinking about how his attackers were never really sentenced after he had even died.

[deez nuts]

moving to rant

[yoMAMA]

yes, it could have been a motive and then yet again, always harder to prove. even if the deliveryman does escape the attack, he will usually be blamed for the incident than (rather) the attacker. i think that is what happened in vincent chin's case ;_; but it makes my heart more numb thinking about how his attackers were never really sentenced after he had even died.

I agree......justice was not served!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :mad:

We must never forget..... :frown:

[Banana]

I don't understand the logic in those "we all know..." statements; pure speculation passing as fact.

Almost like the "glass ceiling" that minorities can't really prove but we know it exists, correct?

[ism]

I quoted this part of the FrontPage article P.C. Media Ignores Racist Murder. For the NYC crew, would you say this view is fair representation of reactions from non-Asian New Yorkers? It's a scary idea that Asians might be seen as not meeting with a strong enough response.

I have not heard that view outside of a conservative, anti-hate crime argument. The article's title shows the agenda pretty clearly.

[ChinaLama]

IF it was a hate crime, then the issue of race is relevant. But I just don't see the hate crime angle here. If they had called the victim racial names or targeted him because of his race, that would be different.


What's your view on the Vincent Chin murder? In that case, at first hate crime charges weren't brought up, I think, because the murderers never actually used any racial slurs. They said "It's because of you motherfuckers that we're out of work." This was when Japanese imports were competing with American cars, so a lot of auto factories closed down at the time.

[kasia]

What's your view on the Vincent Chin murder? In that case, at first hate crime charges weren't brought up, I think, because the murderers never actually used any racial slurs. They said "It's because of you motherfuckers that we're out of work." This was when Japanese imports were competing with American cars, so a lot of auto factories closed down at the time.

exactly. the onus is on us to do the investigation. us as in the asian american community. why should we trust other communities to do it for us? after all, they're not the ones who will be affected if hate crime legislation is not enforced.

[robotic]

ACTION -- NOW!. they, especially, should not get away for killing huang chen.

[kasia]

ACTION -- NOW!. they, especially, should not get away for killing huang chen.

some of the mods have been putting work into this.

a bit of what we're doing (and maybe some of you can help):


http://www.courts.state.ny.us/howdoi/ - that's the NY courts website. i haven't had time to try to navigate through it to see what i could dig up on the case. but maybe some of you can do that. if you're in NY, it may help if you went into the courthouse to look up the files. they're public records.

also - we can run searches on the boys names (whether on-line or be creative) to figure out their criminal records. if this isn't the first time that they's robbed a chinese/asian person ... that's info that we can work with.

lethalweapon is also researching and putting together an essay on this topic.

this shows that the crime against Huang Chen was not an isolated occurrence. why shouldn't these be charged as hate crimes? we're being targeted because of our cultural practice.

Police bust Queens robbery gang

By Lindsay Faber
Staff Writer

April 25, 2004, 10:19 PM EDT

A close-knit group of some 60 thieves alleged to have stolen $1.5 million in cash and jewelry from homes in Queens this winter has been busted, police said Saturday.

The gang, which police dubbed the "Codwise Crew" because of its initial April 2002 burglary on the Corona street Codwise Place, targeted quiet streets in Bayside, Whitestone, Jackson Heights, South Ozone Park, Fresh Meadows and South Ozone Park, police said, sometimes hitting as many as six to seven homes a day.

Many of the victims were Asian, said Police Deputy Chief James Hall, because the burgulars believed those groups were more likely to keep large amounts of cash at home.

Around 300 burglaries have been committed since January in Queens alone, said Hall, the executive officer of Patrol Borough Queens North.

"These individuals would go into a given neighborhood and you might see on that particular day six to eight to 10 to 12 houses in a small area subjected to burglaries," Hall said.

The group is also responsible for at least 25 burglaries in Nassau County and others in New Jersey, Connecticut and Massachusetts, Hall added.

They operated with Nextel phones, wore gloves and were in homes for eight to 10 minutes each.

Police said the gang ran under an informal hierarchy, with notable operators being James Gutierrez, 41, and his 21-year-old son of the same name.

The gang's roots are in Cali, Colombia, Hall said, and most of the members are in the United States illegally. Many of the members are related or romantically involved, he said.

Of the 58 members identified, 36 are in jail on burglary charges and 16 others have made bail, Hall said. Forty of the arrests happened this year, police said.

"I think we've got a real good bite out of it," Hall said of the network. "We'd be naive to think we have all of them. There are other parts of this investigation that are going to continue."

In the last 28 days, burglaries in Queens North precincts have dropped by 13 percent, police said, indicating the effectiveness of the arrests.

AND - someone please tell the media to stop framing it as a crime against deliverymen. clearly, ASIAN men are being targeted.

Deliverymen are victims in 20% of Lower East Side’s robberies

By Alan Bastable

Wu Ching Wang never saw it coming.

“They just started hitting me on the head with a bat, and when I fell they kept hitting me on the legs,” the 51-year-old deliveryman told police, after four men attacked him at a Lower East Side apartment building in March 2001.

The woman who found Wang said he was lying dazed in the corridor, crying in pain and bleeding all over, according to the police report. He had a fractured skull and a broken leg. Blood-spattered cartons of Chinese food were scattered around him.

It has been almost three years since that assault, but it is emblematic of what police say is a larger problem on the Lower East Side: robbers targeting deliverymen.

In the first two months of 2004, nearly one out of every five robbery victims in the Lower East Side was a deliveryman, according to records provided by the Seventh Precinct. The precinct — which is bounded by Houston St., Allen St. and Pike St. and the East River — just began tracking that statistic this year, but delivering food in the neighborhood has always been a perilous occupation, said Valdie G. Lurch, the community affairs officer at the Seventh Precinct.

“Their job is almost like ours,” Lurch said. “They don’t know where they’re going or who they’re going to see.”

The problem has been compounded in this neighborhood, Lurch said, because many deliverymen can’t speak English, are working illegally or are reclusive, and are therefore hesitant to report robberies to the police.

“Unless they’re hurt,” Lurch said, “they’ll count their loses and go back to work.”

In an effort to counter the problem, the Seventh Precinct has encouraged neighborhood restaurants to install caller identification systems in their phones. “If they have any doubts about a number,” Lurch said, “then they can call us and we’ll call the number back.”

Congee Village, a Chinese restaurant at 100 Allen St., has a phone system that not only identifies callers’ numbers but also their addresses.

“We’ve never had a problem with our deliverymen,” said Eric Lee, the restaurant’s manager. “Then again, most of our customers are regulars.”

The precinct also helped organize a February seminar on safety for deliverymen that drew more than 200 deliverymen, restaurant managers and owners. “Travel on busy roads as much as possible, always carry a cell phone and stay alert,” said Capt. Michael Lau, who coordinated the event and gave attendees those tips among others.

While deliverymen have received aid from police, support from advocacy groups has been minimal, perhaps because of the deliverymen’s reluctance to seek help, Lurch said.

Local 338 of the Retail, Wholesale and Department Store Union, a city union that represents restaurant workers, including more than 300 deliverymen, has not received any calls about the robberies, said Steve Pezenick, the director of special projects.

“So far no one has brought the problem to our attention,” he said. “But if they did we would certainly contact their employer and the local precinct.”

After being told about the scope of the problem in the Lower East Side, Pezenick said he would “send out feelers” to see what Local 338 could do to help.

As for the New York State Restaurant Association, its New York City chapter has not received any complaints from restaurant owners regarding the safety of their deliverymen, said Chuck Hunt, the chapter’s executive vice president.

“I do not have any information on this subject,” he said.

Francisco Cervantes does. A deliveryman at Roma Pizza and Pasta at 116 Delancey St., Cervantes has never been threatened on the job, he said, but he is not comfortable delivering food in the more remote corners of the neighborhood.

“I’ve heard stories of what has happened to other deliverymen,” the Spanish-speaking Cervantes said through an interpreter. “I always watch my back.”

check out this indictment. Chinese gang deliberately targets Asians. how were they able to determine this in this case but not the Huang Chen case? the police held preconceived notions and conducted their investigations thereon. and WHY is this indictment published but not the one against the killers of Huang Chen??? btw, these robbers face life imprisonment. Huang Chen's killer? possibly 20 years, but will likely get early release.

United States AttorneySouthern District of New York
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASECONTACT:U.S. ATTORNEY’S OFFICESEPTEMBER 5, 2003
MARVIN SMILON, HERBERT HADAD,MICHAEL KULSTAD PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICE
(718) 422-1870(212) 637-2600

LEADER OF CHINESE ROBBERY GANG ARRAIGNED ON FEDERAL CHARGES INVOLVING OVER 20 ARMED ROBBERIES AROUND THE U.S.JAMES B. COMEY, the United States Attorney for theSouthern District of New York, and PASQUALE D’AMURO, the Assistant Director in charge of the New York Office of theFederal Bureau of Investigation (“FBI), announced today that WANGJIA FU, a/k/a “Ga Fook,” the leader of a large Chinese robberygang, was arraigned today in Manhattan Federal Court by UnitedStates District Judge DENNY CHIN. WANG JIA FU was detainedwithout bail.The 57-count Indictment, which names 15 defendants,including WANG JIA FU, charges that the defendants conspired torob, and robbed at gunpoint, 24 different homes and businesses inNew York City and at least five other states. The Indictmentalleges specifically that the defendants committed a series ofarmed robberies in New York’s Chinatown in 2000 and 2001. Inparticular, during the robbery of a business at 136-05 Sanford Avenue, Queens, New York, which is charged in Counts 52 and 53 ofthe Indictment, a woman was shot in the head. In addition,according to the Indictment, various defendants traveled aroundthe United States, including in New Jersey, Florida, Georgia,Arizona, and California to commit additional robberies. Thecharges in the Indictment represent the culmination of a three-year investigation by the FBI’s Asian Organized Crime Task Force,which is made up of FBI agents and NYPD detectives.To date, seven defendants, including WANG JIA FU, havebeen arrested on the Indictment. All were previously arraignedin Manhattan Federal Court, and have also been detained withoutbail. Besides WANG JIA FU, these defendants are JIN CHEN, SONGPING TIAN, CHEN CHAO, ZHOU ZI YI, CHEN FEN, and CHEN TENG. Theremaining eight defendants charged in the Indictment remainfugitives.The current Indictment follows the successfulprosecution of six other members of JIA FU’s robbery crew. OnMay 29, 2003, two of those indivduals, CHEN XIANG and LIN XIANWU, were convicted, after a two-week jury trial, before JUDGERICHARD CONWAY CASEY, of robbing at gunpoint three businesses inNew York’s Chinatown. All three of the businesses also operatedbackroom gambling parlors. CHEN XIANG and LIN XIAN WU were alsoconvicted of conspiring to commit, and committing, an armedextortion of a Chinese businessman.
-3-The evidence at trial established that members of JIAFU’s robbery gang deliberately targeted Chinese immigrants,particularly immigrants who ran illicit gambling parlors andbrothels, in the hope that their victims would be unlikely toreport the crimes to the police. The evidence at trial alsoestablished that the robbers’ victims included young children andelderly people, who were routinely bound and often physicallyassaulted. In total, the evidence established, members of JIAFU’s robbery crew stole hundreds of thousands of dollars in cashand property during the course of their robberies.The remaining four defendants indicted along with thetwo trial defendants – CHUN RONG CHEN, XIAO QIN ZHOU, LI XIN YE,and LI WEI – all pled guilty. On July 23, 2002, LI WEI wassentenced by JUDGE CASEY to 52 months’ imprisonment. CHEN XIANG,LIN XIAN WU, CHUN RONG CHEN, XIAO QIN ZHOU, and LI XIN YE areawaiting sentencing.If convicted, each defendant charged in the Indictment,and each defendant awaiting sentencing, faces a maximum sentenceof 20 years in prison for each count of robbery and each count ofconspiracy to commit robbery. JIA FU is charged with directlyparticipating in more than 16 armed robberies. In addition, eachfirearms offense carries a maximum penalty of life imprisonment. Moreover, the first firearms conviction for any defendant carriesa mandatory minimum sentence of seven years in prison, and each
additional firearms conviction carries a consecutive mandatoryminimum sentence of 25 years in prison.Mr. COMEY praised the investigative efforts of the FBI,the New York City Police Department, and all of the local lawenforcement agencies throughout the country that assisted in theinvestigation.Assistant United States Attorneys PREET BHARARA andLESLIE BROWN are in charge of the prosecution.The charges contained in the Indictment are merelyaccusations, and the defendants are presumed innocent unless anduntil proven guilty.

[xdlin22]

goddamn this pisses me off, THEY NEED TO DIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEee

[Banana]

This might be kinda off topic but can someone answer me this?

When has a non-Asian been convicted of a hate crime against an Asian without having other non-Asian victims involved with the perpetrator? This leaves me to believe that American culture, as a whole, associates the phrase "hate crime" only if the victim is black.

[kasia]

This might be kinda off topic but can someone answer me this?

When has a non-Asian been convicted of a hate crime against an Asian without having other non-Asian victims involved with the perpetrator? This leaves me to believe that American culture, as a whole, associates the phrase "hate crime" only if the victim is black.

or gay & white?

[kmeister1]

Almost like the "glass ceiling" that minorities can't really prove but we know it exists, correct?

But to what existent? The older I get, the less I'm impressed by "we all know" statements. "Knowing" something is one thing--which in this case is actually only a belief (and who's "we" anyway?). Proving it's existence with evidence, facts, data, etc., is something else entirely.

The FACT is, no evidence has been presented indicating that the crime was a hate crime. Without such evidence, the perps cannot be charged with a hate crime.

It's an old argument I still support: By protecting the rights of even accused murderers, we protect our own rights.

KMeister1

What's your view on the Vincent Chin murder? In that case, at first hate crime charges weren't brought up, I think, because the murderers never actually used any racial slurs. They said "It's because of you motherfuckers that we're out of work." This was when Japanese imports were competing with American cars, so a lot of auto factories closed down at the time.

Subject of a different thread...

KMeister1

[ChinaLama]

the point I was trying to make is, if you're looking for evidence of hate crime solely in use of hate language, you're limiting yourself too much.

[Banana]

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

There have been numerous stories posted regarding Asian deliverymen that been singled out and assaulted based on stereotypical racial stereotypes. Now, given the past history regarding incidents where previous perpetrators had admitted that they indeed singled out Asian deliverymen because of stereotypes leaves any person to assume that this is the same case scenario.

[537]

The FACT is, no evidence has been presented indicating that the crime was a hate crime. Without such evidence, the perps cannot be charged with a hate crime.

It's an old argument I still support: By protecting the rights of even accused murderers, we protect our own rights.

KMeister1


The 'fact' you proclaim as such is only your belief. I find it very hypocritical of you to tell the forum members that you know there is no evidence.

The case hasn't been tried yet, and I'm sure all the evidence has not been made public.

At any rate, we are not stipulating that this should be tried as a hate crime because there is evidence supporting that charge. We are saying that the suspects should be charged with a racially stereotyped hate crime because that is in essence what this was. Many incidents just like this happen local to that area, most of which are left unreported. Do a simple search on "Chinese Deliverymen" on google and see what you fucking come up with. What's the first thing you see? No, it's not a web site pointing you to chinese restaurants that deliver. In FACT, the first search return points to incidents where these deliverymen were targetted and murdered.

I also find it particularly alarming that you mention protecting the rights of the murderers. I hear nothing mentioned by you of protecting the rights of the now deceased victim, who was brutally and unmercifully beaten and stabbed to death by said murderers. If you cannot see the importance of establishing the paradigm of reporting, trying, and convicting such racially motivated murders then you are not grounded in reality. You're biased and ethnically unaware. And that is a fact.

[>:^|]

the point I was trying to make is, if you're looking for evidence of hate crime solely in use of hate language, you're limiting yourself too much.

I agree with this. However, my opinion is that in order for somebody to be successfully prosecuted with a hate crime, the perpetrator has to be wearing his full KKK gear, shouting explicit racial slurs, and be witnessed by a group of White nuns. In addition he should leave a diary in which he details his killing and his hate for the mud races. The victim should be a college-educated person of impeccable character.

And, of course, not all states have hate crime statutes.

NAPALC has some interesting discussion on its site.

http://www.napalc.org/literature/annual_report/1998.html

[draconisz]

But to what existent? The older I get, the less I'm impressed by "we all know" statements. "Knowing" something is one thing--which in this case is actually only a belief (and who's "we" anyway?). Proving it's existence with evidence, facts, data, etc., is something else entirely.

The FACT is, no evidence has been presented indicating that the crime was a hate crime. Without such evidence, the perps cannot be charged with a hate crime.

It's an old argument I still support: By protecting the rights of even accused murderers, we protect our own rights.

KMeister1



Subject of a different thread...

KMeister1

???? We don't know all the evidence. We are talking about what is likely. It is possible that these two may have internalized a lot of negative stereotypes of Asians. I don't know about you. . .but I spend a great deal of time in the "Black" community. . .since I'm "Black". I have gotten into more arguments than I can count about Asians and their supposed place of privilege in America. Many "Blacks" have very negative views of Asians. Almost all of these views are driven by media images.

So it is not totally unlikely these two were affected by such talk and such imagery. The case has to at least be considered as a hate crime, given the amount of savagery these men engaged in. Hopefully, the facts of the case will be made public. Right now, there aren't many facts that we can draw conclusions from. But it is not beyond reason that these two had much hate or malice in their hearts when committing this crime.

[kasia]

But to what existent? The older I get, the less I'm impressed by "we all know" statements. "Knowing" something is one thing--which in this case is actually only a belief (and who's "we" anyway?). Proving it's existence with evidence, facts, data, etc., is something else entirely.

The FACT is, no evidence has been presented indicating that the crime was a hate crime. Without such evidence, the perps cannot be charged with a hate crime.

It's an old argument I still support: By protecting the rights of even accused murderers, we protect our own rights.

sure, protecting the rights of the accused will inevitably protect our rights. or at least our consitution (provided the fact that most of us probably will not be put into the same position as the accused. READ: WE WON'T KILL A BOY OF ANOTHER ETHNICITY FOR $49.00.)

but i do understand what you're saying.


however, you do not know whether there has been any evidence presented indicating that the crime is indeed a hate crime. you were not at the arraignment. you did not read the police reports. you have no clue what they confessed to.

isn't it a bit convenient for you to just proclaim that it is not a hate crime - in light of the fact that it isn't your community that is being targeted?

[draconisz]

isn't it a bit convenient for you to just proclaim that it is not a hate crime - in light of the fact that it isn't your community that is being targeted?

Kasia. . .I think you have the wrong impression of Kmeister. I am pretty sure that if you asked. . .he would explain that he doesn't believe in the existence of the "Black" community.

[kasia]

please stay on the topic (i've been asked to delete some of my posts, too - so if i have to, so do you!)

[achtungbaby]

As much as everyone would like to spike the set bunboy just put up, please keep things civil:)

[draconisz]

As much as everyone would like to spike the set bunboy just put up, please keep things civil:)

I am guilty of an infraction. I apologize.

[SunWuKong]

so i have a theoretical situation.

a black guy and a white guy are standing on the street. two or three white guys come out of nowhere, and for no apparent reason, beat up the the black guy with baseball bats, but completely leave the white guy alone, all the while being careful not to use any racial slurs.

is this a hate crime?

[kasia]

so i have a theoretical situation.

a black guy and a white guy are standing on the street. two or three white guys come out of nowhere, and for no apparent reason, beat up the the black guy with baseball bats, but completely leave the white guy alone, all the while being careful not to use any racial slurs.

is this a hate crime?

need more facts. such as - did they all happen to know each other (and the white guy was just a stranger).

but it could arguably be a hate crime.

circumstantial evidence is okay. so long as there's tons of it or it's pretty strong.

[SunWuKong]

need more facts. such as - did they all happen to know each other (and the white guy was just a stranger).

but it could arguably be a hate crime.

circumstantial evidence is okay. so long as there's tons of it or it's pretty strong.

assume that "for no apparent reason" means that it's completely random, which includes the fact that the victim and the victimisers did not even know each other.

[Kuchana]

so i have a theoretical situation.

a black guy and a white guy are standing on the street. two or three white guys come out of nowhere, and for no apparent reason, beat up the the black guy with baseball bats, but completely leave the white guy alone, all the while being careful not to use any racial slurs.

is this a hate crime?

Adding to what SWK said, are there any loopholes in identifying a hate crime legally? If the perpetrators deliberately try to not make it seem as such is what I'm getting at. Is a hate crime more difficult to identify nowadays if people try to get around it?

[draconisz]

Adding to what SWK said, are there any loopholes in identifying a hate crime legally? If the perpetrators deliberately try to not make it seem as such is what I'm getting at. Is a hate crime more difficult to identify nowadays if people try to get around it?

I don't see how it could be anymore difficult. James Byrd was dragged behind a truck in Texas. No one was concerned about the defendants yelling racial slurs. It was pretty evident that was a hate crime.

What is so different about this case?

[Kuchana]

I don't see how it could be anymore difficult. James Byrd was dragged behind a truck in Texas. No one was concerned about the defendants yelling racial slurs. It was pretty evident that was a hate crime.

What is so different about this case?

But going back to the example that SWK used.

[kasia]

what's different about this case is that they could have just chose the first take out menu they found - not caring whether it was chinese or not.

but intent can be formed at different times.

e.g., even if they randomly called a chinese restaurant, their subsequent acts could have been because they dehumanized him b/c he was asian.

[draconisz]

I don't think I have any issue with this being prosecuted as a hate crime. I guess what I doing was trying to look at previous cases and see what could possibly be different about this incident. Does anyone know?

I know for a fact that in the Jasper incident, there were no eyewitnesses. How did the prosecution prove "hate" was involved?

I have said before at least twice and I will say again, it is well-known that many "Blacks" harbor prejudicial attitudes towards Asians. This is merely a statement of fact. What is so hard to believe that these two teenagers acted on those attitudes?

I have been looking for details on the Jasper incident. I haven't found much information on exactly what evidence was presented.

[Banana]

If I recall correctly, they [perpetrators] that dragged Dennis Byrd never mentioned 1 racial slur or derogatory comment about blacks during the whole incident. Even though these men had a membership in the KKK, in theory, wouldn't be enough to make this a hate crime. Sure, they belonged to the KKK. Sure, the victim was black. However, if a hate crime is only classified if a racial slur was utter during the time of the incident, then the dragging of Byrd wasn't a hate crime. But any sane person knows that it was a hate crime based on past incidents of lynchings and draggings of blacks in the deep south.

The two killers might not be as obvious as belonging to a hate group but my gut in