Free Will & Determinism

[angel nympho]

I just wanted to hear some insight from you guys on what you think about this issue.

Some people say that our lives are determined by cause and effect. That what happens to us eventually in life is determined by the conditions that we are presented with throughout life, and that the final result cannot be anything BUT what is determined by these conditions. Some people contend that we are governed by free will. We decide our own futures. What do you think?

I feel that there's very good arguments on both sides. I'm going to finish reading this article on the subject, and then I will post more.

[kasia]

determinism.

[achtungbaby]

My perspective is gonna be a little skewed. Whenever I hear of this topic, it's always got a religious connotation, Calvinism v. Armenianism, God predestining you v. you choosing your fate, etc.

[deez nuts]

I'm lost and confused :blink:

Edit: gonna have to start blazing again to understand this.



<!--EDIT|Chasiubao_Boy|Sep 3 2002, 08:07 PM-->

[angel nympho]

I'm speaking from a non-religious view. A lot of determinists are coming from a more scientific approach rather than a spiritual one. They're saying that our choices are based on cause and effect, the way nature works. In nature, everything happens because of a cause. A tree looks the way it is because of the way the sun hits it, how much water it gets, etc... not because it wants to forge it's own path and be an individual. So why aren't we governed by these same laws, is what determinists ask.

Free will.. that's pretty self-explanitory, right?

Well the way it has been outlined for me so far is too extreme on both parts. I think the two coexist.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by kasia@Sep 3 2002, 01:03 AM
determinism.
if that's so, then why do we punish people for wrongdoing... it was already determined for them to act the way they did.. that implies that they could do nothing to change the way their future folded out for them. why punish them for something they couldnt help?

[kasia]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 4 2002, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Sep 3 2002, 01:03 AM
determinism.
if that's so, then why do we punish people for wrongdoing... it was already determined for them to act the way they did.. that implies that they could do nothing to change the way their future folded out for them. why punish them for something they couldnt help?
the same reason why we informally punish ugly people for being ugly.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by kasia@Sep 4 2002, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 4 2002, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Sep 3 2002, 01:03 AM
determinism.
if that's so, then why do we punish people for wrongdoing... it was already determined for them to act the way they did.. that implies that they could do nothing to change the way their future folded out for them. why punish them for something they couldnt help?
the same reason why we informally punish ugly people for being ugly.
So if I killed somebody tomorrow, I could just blame it on determinism? I could say "Hey, it was meant to be" and move on with my life?

[kasia]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 4 2002, 03:51 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Sep 4 2002, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 4 2002, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Sep 3 2002, 01:03 AM
determinism.
if that's so, then why do we punish people for wrongdoing... it was already determined for them to act the way they did.. that implies that they could do nothing to change the way their future folded out for them. why punish them for something they couldnt help?
the same reason why we informally punish ugly people for being ugly.
So if I killed somebody tomorrow, I could just blame it on determinism? I could say "Hey, it was meant to be" and move on with my life?
but would you kill a person? that is the question. and if the answer is probably not--do you think it is just b/c it is you were born a good person or do you think it would have anything to do with your upbringing, your environment, your life right now, how much you have to lose, etc. etc.?

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Sep 3 2002, 05:05 PM
I'm lost and confused :blink:

Edit: gonna have to start blazing again to understand this.
bionic chronic pass

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by Hello_Hapa@Sep 3 2002, 08:42 PM
bionic chronic pass
I've got some of that in my fridge!

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by kasia@Sep 4 2002, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 4 2002, 03:51 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Sep 4 2002, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 4 2002, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Sep 3 2002, 01:03 AM
determinism.
if that's so, then why do we punish people for wrongdoing... it was already determined for them to act the way they did.. that implies that they could do nothing to change the way their future folded out for them. why punish them for something they couldnt help?
the same reason why we informally punish ugly people for being ugly.
So if I killed somebody tomorrow, I could just blame it on determinism? I could say "Hey, it was meant to be" and move on with my life?
but would you kill a person? that is the question. and if the answer is probably not--do you think it is just b/c it is you were born a good person or do you think it would have anything to do with your upbringing, your environment, your life right now, how much you have to lose, etc. etc.?
So your argument is that people's choices are determined by the conditions in which they grew up? See, that's a pretty good argument, but still I'm not satisfied with the thought that the choices I make are not really my own. When you bring into account my life right now, how much I have to lose, and things like that, that makes it seem like choices are weighed out in the mind... aka free will?

[wylin]

im gonna bring my view into this one

Everyone has a destiny but its based upon paths we choose kinda like choose your own adventure but its based upon a predetermined set of situations and outcomes that can happened chosen by....fill in your diety ie God, jesus, allah, buddah, jedi, etc

thus im in the determinism camp! deterimined by your own free will to some degree but along a path determined from X diety above!

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by wylin@Sep 4 2002, 05:16 PM
im gonna bring my view into this one

Everyone has a destiny but its based upon paths we choose kinda like choose your own adventure but its based upon a predetermined set of situations and outcomes that can happened chosen by....fill in your diety ie God, jesus, allah, buddah, jedi, etc

thus im in the determinism camp! deterimined by your own free will to some degree but along a path determined from X diety above!
Yay, that was the theory I was trying to explain in my Philosophy class. It came out more as "blahblahblahblahblah? bLAH! NO! BLAH!" *sigh*

but I DID mention the Choose your own Adventure books. WHoa.. great minds think alike.

[angel nympho]

Oh yeahh. the only difference--> I don't think a diety has much to do with it.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 4 2002, 12:13 PM
Originally posted by kasia@Sep 4 2002, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 4 2002, 03:51 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Sep 4 2002, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 4 2002, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by kasia@Sep 3 2002, 01:03 AM
determinism.
if that's so, then why do we punish people for wrongdoing... it was already determined for them to act the way they did.. that implies that they could do nothing to change the way their future folded out for them. why punish them for something they couldnt help?
the same reason why we informally punish ugly people for being ugly.
So if I killed somebody tomorrow, I could just blame it on determinism? I could say "Hey, it was meant to be" and move on with my life?
but would you kill a person? that is the question. and if the answer is probably not--do you think it is just b/c it is you were born a good person or do you think it would have anything to do with your upbringing, your environment, your life right now, how much you have to lose, etc. etc.?
So your argument is that people's choices are determined by the conditions in which they grew up? See, that's a pretty good argument, but still I'm not satisfied with the thought that the choices I make are not really my own. When you bring into account my life right now, how much I have to lose, and things like that, that makes it seem like choices are weighed out in the mind... aka free will?
my own personal view is really something in between. but determinism can be stretched to an all-encompassing umbrella idea. simply put, there's no way to tell that you are making your choices out of your own free will. under an umbrella determinism argument, given all that has happened in your life, it is necessarily so that you are currently making the choices you are making. free will would only be an illusion because you wouldn't have chosen anything else that you did not choose.

[angel nympho]

^-- That's my opinion, too.

They brought up a good point in class today: If determinism were true.. you wouldn't be held accountable for anything, good or bad. And if it's true... why do we bother feeling regret?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 10 2002, 11:41 PM
^-- That's my opinion, too.

They brought up a good point in class today: If determinism were true.. you wouldn't be held accountable for anything, good or bad. And if it's true... why do we bother feeling regret?
yes, but assuming determinism holds true, the fact that we are held accountable means that we should be.


cheers :)

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 11 2002, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 10 2002, 11:41 PM
^-- That's my opinion, too.

They brought up a good point in class today: &nbsp;If determinism were true.. you wouldn't be held accountable for anything, good or bad. &nbsp;And if it's true... why do we bother feeling regret?
yes, but assuming determinism holds true, the fact that we are held accountable means that we should be.


cheers :)
*confused* rephrase?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 11 2002, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 11 2002, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 10 2002, 11:41 PM
^-- That's my opinion, too.

They brought up a good point in class today: If determinism were true.. you wouldn't be held accountable for anything, good or bad. And if it's true... why do we bother feeling regret?
yes, but assuming determinism holds true, the fact that we are held accountable means that we should be.


cheers :)
*confused* rephrase?
everything is, as is. if we feel regret, we feel regret. there is no should or should not.

determinism.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 11 2002, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 11 2002, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Sep 11 2002, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 10 2002, 11:41 PM
^-- That's my opinion, too.

They brought up a good point in class today: If determinism were true.. you wouldn't be held accountable for anything, good or bad. And if it's true... why do we bother feeling regret?
yes, but assuming determinism holds true, the fact that we are held accountable means that we should be.


cheers :)
*confused* rephrase?
everything is, as is. if we feel regret, we feel regret. there is no should or should not.

determinism.
But regret implies that what happened should have happened a different way. And to the determinist, there is no other way...

...To me, it seems as though this rigit view of the determinist forces somebody in that category to be like, this emotionless robot going through the motions of free will while not believe in it at all.

i really think determinism should be broadened to a "bigger picture" type thing. i guess you could call me a hybrid determinist/free willer. jeeze, i've developed my own little theory. sarah-ism. its my religion too. =)

[kasia]

discussions on determinism get even funkier when you factor in the idea that whether or not people regret or whether or not people judge others are not decisions that *they* make nor consequences of their free will--those things are also predetermined under the doctrine of determinism.

[angel nympho]

^-- Well if everything is a decision that I do not make....

Ok, here's an example of something that better illustrates why I think that's not... valid. Everything in live, I believe, is based upon decisions. It may be predetermined what decision you make, but the fact of the matter is that when you're in the moment... you're consciously weighing out the decision... and making your mind, thus shaping your own future.

Let's say that you and I are in a classroom together, alone. You leave to go to the bathroom, leaving me alone in the room with your books, bag, and... all that stuff. When you come back, I havn't moved at all... but all your belongings are missing. When you ask me where they are, I just shrug. When you ask me if anybody came into the room and took them, I say no. When you ask me if I stole them, I say no. After searching the room, you find that they aren't anywhere.. they've simply disappeared. Then you turn to me, and say.. "it's obvious that you stole them." I say... "No. I didn't steal them. Stealing them happened to me." and shrug and walk away.

Was stealing your belongings a decision that I make? I think, yes, it was. Therefore, I should feel regret for it. But if your theory holds true... stealing them wasn't my fault. It was neither a decision I made nor a consequenceof my free will. It was predetermined. Why should I feel bad? Why should I be punished?

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 13 2002, 02:23 PM
Stealing them happened to me.
Yep...alcohol, cigs, drugs...they all did me.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Sep 13 2002, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Sep 13 2002, 02:23 PM
Stealing them happened to me.
Yep...alcohol, cigs, drugs...they all did me.
Werd. I didn't do him!!! He did me! ...Woops, did I say that out loud?!?

[kimpossible]

My sister and I hold diametrically opposed views on this. In fact, I think this is one of the longest running arguments between us. To some extent I was thinking about this on the topic of birth order. As in, is the role stronger than the person and helps determine personality or assign responsibility.

She uses the past to say, I'm a victim, circumstances made me who I am and therefore I'm not responsible for the decisions I make. My outlook is more along the lines of, life is challenging and can't be measure in the terms of fair/unfair. That which doesn't kill me makes me stronger, etc. I would say I fall within the free will camp. Too often, I think determinism is used as an excuse to escape responsibility.

But what further bakes my noodle is: would I feel this way if our birth order were reversed? Did my position in the family determine my outlook?

[angel nympho]

Werd. Determinism (by definition) seems to me to be just like... a cop-out for people who don't want to take responsibility for their actions. I've got this article about this court case that uses determinism as an argument for why the criminal shouldn't be punished. Though I don't agree with what it says, it's really well said and I give the attorney props for that.

Anyway, I still think it's possible to kinda believe in both. Maybe what I believe in isn't determinism. I think it's more like... fate or destiny... or like... that there's a purpose to life or something. It's kind of hard to explain.