Are Asians minorities?

[>:^|]

full story at http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0403080202mar08,1,7084470.story

Set-asides said to omit Asian firms
Ordinance still under discussion

By Rob Kaiser
Tribune staff reporter
Published March 8, 2004

Asian-owned firms are unlikely to be included in a new City of Chicago ordinance to set aside a portion of construction contracts for minority- and women-owned firms, according to people familiar with the issue.

The expected exclusion of Asian-owned firms highlights the politically sensitive process that city and business officials are engaged in to try to preserve the bulk of the contract set-aside program.

"We were shocked," said Perry Nakachi, president of the Association of Asian Construction Enterprises. "We've always been classified as minorities."

Moran wrote in his decision that although construction firms owned by African-Americans faced clear discrimination, particularly in seeking loans, evidence of discrimination against firms owned by Hispanics, Asians and women was not as clear.

* * *

"A third-generation Japanese-American from a wealthy family, and with a graduate degree from MIT, qualifies."

[SunWuKong]

doesn't surprise me. we're only considered "minorities" when it's convenient for either whites or blacks.

[kitty]

Depends on if you're using an economic classification of 'minority'. It's ridiculous to me -- just because Asians may seem affluent in certain areas of society, it is only an illusion. Asians are still very much underrepresented and more importantly underrserved. So yes, we are a minority.

[hooligan]

Depends on if you're using an economic classification of 'minority'. It's ridiculous to me -- just because Asians may seem affluent in certain areas of society, it is only an illusion. Asians are still very much underrepresented and more importantly underrserved. So yes, we are a minority.

don't forget about the history of oppression and racism.

[TB4000]

Yeah, I do see where they get that from. The whole minority thing is applied to blacks and hispanics because we're quote unquote, "the downtrodden ones in society". Worst test scores, largest amounts of crime, not as successful compared to other races, and other crap people tend to spout off about. They look at me and look at an asian guy, they'll most likely assume I've had it rougher than him, even if we've both had the exact same upbringing.

[SunWuKong]

Yeah, I do see where they get that from. The whole minority thing is applied to blacks and hispanics because we're quote unquote, "the downtrodden ones in society". Worst test scores, largest amounts of crime, not as successful compared to other races, and other crap people tend to spout off about. They look at me and look at an asian guy, they'll most likely assume I've had it rougher than him, even if we've both had the exact same upbringing.

don't forget Native Americans. i think they've had the worst of it.
although i hear that the government gives something like 60K to the members of certain tribes when they reach the age of 18. not a bad sum.

[jjangAPSAchick]

omg im so glad there arent any foolish people on this post~! its so refreshing to hear intelligant commentary :)

[Tao]

i love getting screwed over twice....ohhhh yeah!

yeah we're not a fucking minority cause we're successful? ....gee thanks, may i please get my share of racism now?

[SunWuKong]

i love getting screwed over twice....ohhhh yeah!

yeah we're not a fucking minority cause we're successful? ....gee thanks, may i please get my share of racism now?


another can of worms: affirmative action in college admission?

[kimpossible]

another can of worms: affirmative action in college admission?

i was thinking the same thing. it's hard not to.

[yoMAMA]

If being only 3% of the population and a history of being discriminated and excluded does not qualify as a minority group, then i don't know what is a minority.

[kitty]

don't forget about the history of oppression and racism.

isn't that a given?

[yoMAMA]

don't forget Native Americans. i think they've had the worst of it.
although i hear that the government gives something like 60K to the members of certain tribes when they reach the age of 18. not a bad sum.

No kidding!

Talking about getting screwed by the U.S government....... :frown: :mad:

I've seen alot of Native Americans on the streets of downtown minneapolis, drunk and homeless.......it's really sad..... :frown:

on the other hand, there are alot of native owned casinos all over minnesota, but i heard only a few tribal leaders and their [white] business partners are profiting.

[Green_Circle]

Still yet another rip off :mad:

[DavidJoo]

I consider Asian Americans a minority, however I'm dead set against any form of benefits based upon purely racial lines.This is why I think the affirmative action system is broken, and it has such a strong opposition nationwide.

It honestly doesn't make sense to me how anyone could expect a certain "portion of construction contracts for minorities." That seems like begging for handouts to me. All contracts should be based on a competitive scale, irregardless of race or color.

Now giving financial aid or assistance to those from lower classes, then that makes sense to me. But at the University of Michigan, I've met far too many wealthy African American kids who went to Andover Mass or Exeter, who benefitted from affirmative action.

just because Asians may seem affluent in certain areas of society, it is only an illusion. Asians are still very much underrepresented and more importantly underrserved. So yes, we are a minority.

I thought with current immigration policies, only those with special skills were qualified for naturalization in the United States. Thus, wouldn't it be a forgone conclusion that most Asian immigrants (legal) would be more succesful than average? Now if you're talking about the thousands of Asian illegal immigrants (a few of our family friends are,) well then the USA isn't obligated to do anything for them anyways.

As far as Asians being very much underrepresented and underserved, I don't know about that. Although Asians make up a tiny minority of the American population, there is a SIGNIFICANTLY disproportionate amount of Asians in institutes of higher education, graduate schools, and in professional fields such as technology and medicine. Take a stroll in ANY top University in American and you'll see a LOT of Asians.

There is a lack of Asians in public service and posititions of authority in the corporate world, but I attribute this to Asian parents for raising their kids to be doctors and engineers rather than businessmen and politicians.

[kitty]

There is a lack of Asians in public service and posititions of authority in the corporate world, but I attribute this to Asian parents for raising their kids to be doctors and engineers rather than businessmen and politicians.

And I would argue that this is because people just aren't ready to see Asians in areas of public office. Nor are there many programs to help the nonaffluent members of the Asian community -- Asians are predisposed to certain physical and mental health/social (suicide, depression, domestic abuse) concerns, and yet there are few studies that have shown this, let alone any actions to deal with these community specific problems. This is an example of how Asians are undersserved -- by being largely ignored, the uniquely Asian issues are dismissed as unimportant.

We are underrepresented in that if you take a stroll through a college campus, you may see many Asians, but what kinds of Asians are you seeing? East Asians? Chinese? Japanese? Koreans? The big three are highly represented, whereas South Asians are rather underrepresented... why? Because everyone sees slanted eyes and thinks "ooh. Asian." When in fact the Asian diaspora includes many communities who came to the U.S. as refugees, are in poor sectors of the economy, and are underrepresented in higher education because universities assume that having the big three Asians warrants removing the entire pan-Asian ethnicity from affirmative action policies.

To say that affirmative action policies should be removed, and everything should be based entirely on competitiveness and merit is to make a big assumption: that everyone is equal, starting at an equal starting point, and all have access to the same opportunities. This is flat out untrue, and it is partly because of institutional racism that oppresses minority communities (including Asians!).

Therefore, affirmative action is designed not to merely give a certain number of plans to minorities, but to combine merit with racial diversity. People always argue that if you give an opportunity to a minority through affirmative action, you're giving it to someone less qualified -- isn't that a pretty racist assumption? That the minority is inherently not as good? Most of the legal forms of affirmative action require that the two applicants be of the same merit, before one chooses the minority applicant over the white applicant.

You guys are talking about quotas, which I don't think is legal anymore.

[DavidJoo]

And I would argue that this is because people just aren't ready to see Asians in areas of public office.

To say that affirmative action policies should be removed, and everything should be based entirely on competitiveness and merit is to make a big assumption: that everyone is equal, starting at an equal starting point, and all have access to the same opportunities. This is flat out untrue, and it is partly because of institutional racism that oppresses minority communities (including Asians!).


I never said Affirmative Action should be removed. Simply modified so that it benefits people of financial need, rather than strictly on racial lines.

As far as people just not ready to see Asian in public office...you could have said the same about African Americans 40 years ago. But how did men such as Martin Luther King Jr, Thurgood Marshall, Colin Powell, rise to such proportions? By earning the respect of American citizens. This is the challenge facing Asians today.

We have already succeeded in some efforts. Look at General Eric Shinseki, who was the past Army Chieof of Staff, the highest position in the US Army. Current Senator Daniel K. Inouye (D), who won the Congressional Medal of Honor during WWII. There are a couple more out there, and it's clear that people in the medicine and IT fields aren't the ones who are going to deliver Asians into national prominence to fight for our rights.

[hooligan]

isn't that a given?
just needed a little reinforcement.

I never said Affirmative Action should be removed. Simply modified so that it benefits people of financial need, rather than strictly on racial lines.
if you go on financial need, you're actually going to accept a lot of poor whites. color is still going to be an issue.

I consider Asian Americans a minority, however I'm dead set against any form of benefits based upon purely racial lines.This is why I think the affirmative action system is broken, and it has such a strong opposition nationwide.

It honestly doesn't make sense to me how anyone could expect a certain "portion of construction contracts for minorities." That seems like begging for handouts to me. All contracts should be based on a competitive scale, irregardless of race or color.
if affirmative action is broken, then explain why there has been a steady drop in people of color attending ucla ever since the removal of affirmative action?

those "handouts" are supposed to work against the racism that exists in those structures. you're not seeing the forest for the trees, a lot of things are very "white", one of them being management and construction.

I thought with current immigration policies, only those with special skills were qualified for naturalization in the United States. Thus, wouldn't it be a forgone conclusion that most Asian immigrants (legal) would be more succesful than average? Now if you're talking about the thousands of Asian illegal immigrants (a few of our family friends are,) well then the USA isn't obligated to do anything for them anyways.
there's is a significant amount of southeast asian refugees, don't sell them short. a bi-modal distrubtion of wealth exists for the AAPI community. you're not seeing the forest for the trees again.

As far as Asians being very much underrepresented and underserved, I don't know about that. Although Asians make up a tiny minority of the American population, there is a SIGNIFICANTLY disproportionate amount of Asians in institutes of higher education, graduate schools, and in professional fields such as technology and medicine. Take a stroll in ANY top University in American and you'll see a LOT of Asians.

There is a lack of Asians in public service and posititions of authority in the corporate world, but I attribute this to Asian parents for raising their kids to be doctors and engineers rather than businessmen and politicians.
repeat after me: numbers don't mean shit in regards to representation and service. asians only make up 6% of the college going community, (yes, i know that they make up 4% of the total pop.) numbers alone still don't mean that they are represented.

well, explain to me why there aren't any engineers in positions of power, CEOs of engineering companies, etc. why aren't there hospitals owned by AAPI doctors, or AAPI doctors in significant roles in healthcare? there is a need for representation. healthcare for AAPIs suffer from the model minority myth.

[DavidJoo]

well, explain to me why there aren't any engineers in positions of power, CEOs of engineering companies, etc. why aren't there hospitals owned by AAPI doctors, or AAPI doctors in significant roles in healthcare? there is a need for representation. healthcare for AAPIs suffer from the model minority myth.

Because CEOs are primarily MBAs and prominent businessmen. Engineers rarely head engineering companies. Same goes with hospitals. There is a subfield of business that deals with managing hospitals, so doctors do the research and operations.

It's important to keep in mind that the people chosen to be CEOs and executives are the ones with strong leadership ability. For far too long, Asians Americans have been neglecting this aspect and choosing instead to go for more technological fields. This is a key difference between the anthropology of AFrican Americans to Asian Americans, and the results today are clear.

A big aspect is having connections and pull in the professional field. Right now such connections are few and far between, and until we have them it is going to be hard for Asians to have an "in" when it comes to being prominent in American leadership.

[lethal]

Because CEOs are primarily MBAs and prominent businessmen. Engineers rarely head engineering companies. Same goes with hospitals. There is a subfield of business that deals with managing hospitals, so doctors do the research and operations.

Actually, something like half of all Fortune 500 CEOs have engineering degrees.

MBAs and engineers are not mutually exclusive.

[ellsworth81]

fuck that.

if rich latinos/blacks/whatever get the proverbial government cheese, we should get some too.

and as for affirmative action, there's plenty of "under-achieving" asians too. they need just as much help as the other under-achievers in the other races.

either everyone gets some action or none at all.

[yoMAMA]

And I would argue that this is because people just aren't ready to see Asians in areas of public office. Nor are there many programs to help the nonaffluent members of the Asian community -- Asians are predisposed to certain physical and mental health/social (suicide, depression, domestic abuse) concerns, and yet there are few studies that have shown this, let alone any actions to deal with these community specific problems. This is an example of how Asians are undersserved -- by being largely ignored, the uniquely Asian issues are dismissed as unimportant.

We are underrepresented in that if you take a stroll through a college campus, you may see many Asians, but what kinds of Asians are you seeing? East Asians? Chinese? Japanese? Koreans? The big three are highly represented, whereas South Asians are rather underrepresented... why? Because everyone sees slanted eyes and thinks "ooh. Asian." When in fact the Asian diaspora includes many communities who came to the U.S. as refugees, are in poor sectors of the economy, and are underrepresented in higher education because universities assume that having the big three Asians warrants removing the entire pan-Asian ethnicity from affirmative action policies.

To say that affirmative action policies should be removed, and everything should be based entirely on competitiveness and merit is to make a big assumption: that everyone is equal, starting at an equal starting point, and all have access to the same opportunities. This is flat out untrue, and it is partly because of institutional racism that oppresses minority communities (including Asians!).

Therefore, affirmative action is designed not to merely give a certain number of plans to minorities, but to combine merit with racial diversity. People always argue that if you give an opportunity to a minority through affirmative action, you're giving it to someone less qualified -- isn't that a pretty racist assumption? That the minority is inherently not as good? Most of the legal forms of affirmative action require that the two applicants be of the same merit, before one chooses the minority applicant over the white applicant.

You guys are talking about quotas, which I don't think is legal anymore.

Can't agree any more.

[DavidJoo]

and as for affirmative action, there's plenty of "under-achieving" asians too. they need just as much help as the other under-achievers in the other races.


Those, "under-achievers" need a lesson in hard work and discipline, instead of crying to Uncle Sam for more handouts.

And I don't understand why people think it's so necessary to have Affirmative Action. I'll be the first to tell you I grew up in a small dinky apartment, and couldn't even speak English until I was in the 5th grade. Hell, my dad got fired from his job when I was still in high school. I couldn't have even afforded to go to college if I hadn't signed up for an ROTC scholarship.

Yet somehow I managed to do really well in school, scored a 178 on my LSATs last fall, and got into West Point. Tell me, if racism is so rampant, how is it that I as a Korean with no money or political connections, got nominated by not only my US Senator, but also the President of the United States? Is it because I'm smarter and better than everyone else? I think not.

If I can make it and suceed, what excuse does anyone else have? And so what if its unfair. The true measure of a man is how he overcomes adversity. Instead of crying about it, they shuold just work THAT much harder to achieve their goals. "By any means necessary," as Malcom X once said.

Seriously, maybe you guys don't feel this way, but I can tell you that most of the white community at UofM (when I was on student government) despised the whining done by minorities for affirmative action. Is this how you want America to view us as an ethnicity?

[SunWuKong]

I thought with current immigration policies, only those with special skills were qualified for naturalization in the United States. Thus, wouldn't it be a forgone conclusion that most Asian immigrants (legal) would be more succesful than average? Now if you're talking about the thousands of Asian illegal immigrants (a few of our family friends are,) well then the USA isn't obligated to do anything for them anyways.

no, you're thinking about Canada. and it works if you have enough money to invest, too. most legal Asian immigrants in the US are here either because they're from a refugee background, or they have relatives with citizenship that sponsored them. and don't forget those pregnant mothers that fly over to the US to give birth.

As far as Asians being very much underrepresented and underserved, I don't know about that. Although Asians make up a tiny minority of the American population, there is a SIGNIFICANTLY disproportionate amount of Asians in institutes of higher education, graduate schools, and in professional fields such as technology and medicine. Take a stroll in ANY top University in American and you'll see a LOT of Asians.

as far as higher education goes, that is not actually true if you break it down by ethnicity. a lot of Southeast Asians actually scholastically perform at a level that's around the same average as blacks and Hispanics, which is to say, well below the white average.

[hooligan]

Those, "under-achievers" need a lesson in hard work and discipline, instead of crying to Uncle Sam for more handouts.
sorry, horatio alger doesn't exist.

[DavidJoo]

sorry, horatio alger doesn't exist.

Mmmm actually he did.

[SunWuKong]

To say that affirmative action policies should be removed, and everything should be based entirely on competitiveness and merit is to make a big assumption: that everyone is equal, starting at an equal starting point, and all have access to the same opportunities. This is flat out untrue, and it is partly because of institutional racism that oppresses minority communities (including Asians!).

well if we change affirmative action to a class-based one, it would cover the grounds where somebody would have had less opportunities, regardless of race.

Therefore, affirmative action is designed not to merely give a certain number of plans to minorities, but to combine merit with racial diversity. People always argue that if you give an opportunity to a minority through affirmative action, you're giving it to someone less qualified -- isn't that a pretty racist assumption? That the minority is inherently not as good? Most of the legal forms of affirmative action require that the two applicants be of the same merit, before one chooses the minority applicant over the white applicant.

well if affirmative action works like the Michigan one, then being black, Hispanic, or Native American automatically makes someone more qualified because points are automatically awarded for being of one of those races. it's not used only as a tie breaker. that's not exactly comparing two applicants of the same merit, is it?

i read that the Berkeley rejected more than 3,200 students with SAT scores better than 1400 in 2002 while accepting close to 400 students who scored 1000 or lower, and more than half of the students with the lower scores were black and Hispanic. now, i support class-based affirmative action 100%, but you better be pretty damn poor to make up for 400 points on the SATs.

[DavidJoo]

as far as higher education goes, that is not actually true if you break it down by ethnicity. a lot of Southeast Asians actually scholastically perform at a level that's around the same average as blacks and Hispanics, which is to say, well below the white average.

Well whose fault is that? Is there some unknown force keeping these kids from studying more, so they wouldn't be performing below average? Let me guess: it's called Counterstrike and Simpsons. That's what I tell my brother when he shows my parents a poor report card, and I see him playing games and watching TV 24/7.

[pfc beansprout]

omg im so glad there arent any foolish people on this post~! its so refreshing to hear intelligant commentary :)


*cough, cough* you mean "intelligent" dave? heh..sorry, had to gig u on this one :biggrin: :tongue: i'll add somethin more meaningful to this later (i hope)...got exams to study for........


sincerely,
the spelling nazi :wink:

[hooligan]

i read that the Berkeley rejected more than 3,200 students with SAT scores better than 1400 in 2002 while accepting close to 400 students who scored 1000 or lower, and more than half of the students with the lower scores were black and Hispanic. now, i support class-based affirmative action 100%, but you better be pretty damn poor to make up for 400 points on the SATs.
you know that the uc's don't practice affirmative action anymore.

[DavidJoo]

*cough, cough* you mean "intelligent" dave? heh..sorry, had to gig u on this one :biggrin: :tongue: i'll add somethin more meaningful to this later (i hope)...got exams to study for........:

You used the word, "gig." That's the first evidence I've seen yet that you are indeed in the Army
:tongue:

[SunWuKong]

if you go on financial need, you're actually going to accept a lot of poor whites. color is still going to be an issue.

and i don't have a problem with that personally. if they have around the same scores and grades as middle class blacks, then they probably would have worked harder than the middle class blacks.

if affirmative action is broken, then explain why there has been a steady drop in people of color attending ucla ever since the removal of affirmative action?

because class-based affirmative action is needed.

Well whose fault is that? Is there some unknown force keeping these kids from studying more, so they wouldn't be performing below average? Let me guess: it's called Counterstrike and Simpsons. That's what I tell my brother when he shows my parents a poor report card, and I see him playing games and watching TV 24/7.

or maybe it's called growing up in a bad neighborhood where it's not a conducive environment for studies, having to work to help the family out, being stuck in a piss-poorly funded public school as opposed to middle class kids who grew up in well adjusted environments and went to private schools.

you know that the uc's don't practice affirmative action anymore.

yeah, not technially... which is why i say, they better be pretty damn poor to make up for 400 points...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/03/08/state2211EST0195.DTL

[DavidJoo]

or maybe it's called growing up in a bad neighborhood where it's not a conducive environment for studies, having to work to help the family out, being stuck in a piss-poorly funded public school as opposed to middle class kids who grew up in well adjusted environments and went to private schools.


Well ya, that's why I'm saying a class based affirmative action system would make a much bigger impact to helping the poor, than a simple race one.

[hooligan]

and i don't have a problem with that personally. if they have around the same scores and grades as middle class blacks, then they probably would have worked harder than the middle class blacks.

because class-based affirmative action is needed.

no, you're missing the fact that you still need to look at race.

[SunWuKong]

Well ya, that's why I'm saying a class based affirmative action system would make a much bigger impact to helping the poor, than a simple race one.

i agree.
it just so happens that race correlates with class. it is a statistical fact that on the average, blacks, Hispanics, and Southeast Asians are not as financially well-off as whites and East Asians.

[hooligan]

i agree.
it just so happens that race correlates with class. it is a statistical fact that on the average, blacks, Hispanics, and Southeast Asians are not as financially well-off as whites and East Asians.
class can't judge racism or prejudice, or the effects of both.

[SunWuKong]

no, you're missing the fact that you still need to look at race.

why not just look at economics? if you have achieved good grades in school and have good test scores despite the fact that you came from a poor background, regardless of race, then you're well-deserving.

[hooligan]

why not just look at economics? if you have achieved good grades in school and have good test scores despite the fact that you came from a poor background, regardless of race, then you're well-deserving.
being rich doesn't lessen the effects of racism.

[SunWuKong]

class can't judge racism or prejudice, or the effects of both.

and race is not an automatic indicator of racism.
but class is an automatic indicator that you've had a harder time to get to where you are.

being rich doesn't lessen the effects of racism.

so middle class suburban black kids who have never been denied any opportunities before, are victims of racism and therefore are automatically more deserving than poor non-black kids, simply because they're black? i'm sorry, i can't agree with that.

[hooligan]

and race is not an automatic indicator of racism.
but class is an automatic indicator that you've had a harder time to get to where you are.
if you're a person of color living in america, you've felt the affects of racism or you've just been ignorant of it.

as for class, true, but a poor white, i believe, has more opportunities than say a poor black. or are they really equal?

and race is not an automatic indicator of racism.
but class is an automatic indicator that you've had a harder time to get to where you are.



so middle class suburban black kids who have never been denied any opportunities before, are victims of racism and therefore are automatically more deserving of poor kids, regardless of race, simply because they're black? i'm sorry, i can't agree with that.
you always make cross-class comparisons, i think if you're going to argue that class is more important you've got to compare low class to low class. the opportunities are exacerbated when you compare high vs low, etc.

[kitty]

well if we change affirmative action to a class-based one, it would cover the grounds where somebody would have had less opportunities, regardless of race.



well if affirmative action works like the Michigan one, then being black, Hispanic, or Native American automatically makes someone more qualified because points are automatically awarded for being of one of those races. it's not used only as a tie breaker. that's not exactly comparing two applicants of the same merit, is it?

i read that the Berkeley rejected more than 3,200 students with SAT scores better than 1400 in 2002 while accepting close to 400 students who scored 1000 or lower, and more than half of the students with the lower scores were black and Hispanic. now, i support class-based affirmative action 100%, but you better be pretty damn poor to make up for 400 points on the SATs.

Well, from what I understand, quotas are illegal, but the system that I am comfortable with is the one used in Cornell. Here, you have three piles: the "got the scholastics to get in" pile, the "sorta got the right grades to get in" pile, and the "no way" pile.

The first pile, you need excellent scores to get in. The second pile is where race factors -- and it factors about as well as playing the trombone. While it is a point system, everyone for which it applies was placed in the second category and characteristics like race, as well as other special skills were flagged.

They never pull people from the third pile, regardless of race.

So, my response to the example above, would be that are you sure that the kids turned away with the high SAT scores were turned away because of their race? Schools look for more than numerical scores... you need to have a high SAT score and/or extracurricular activities/volunteer experience, or other well-rounded activities to make it in. It's possible that those with the high scores were turned away because they had little else in their application that distinguished them the rest of the applicants -- and college entrance boards care not only about scholastic achievement but other indicators that tell them that the student will be able to positively contribute to the college community.

They may have a system whereby the actual SAT scores are adjusted according to the educational background of their neighbourhood, or the kids may have had other traits in their application, such as a good essay, or the ability to play some little known instrument.

All the kids were probably in the second pile, where they were one dimensional, or lacking the 'you're in right away!' criteria, and those that were had high scores and were not accepted probably had no extracurricular activities.

As an anecdote, one of my friends didn't get into Cornell med school (though she's a Cornell alum) even though she had awesome grades and a killer MCAT score. She bombed the interview because, when asked what she does outside of schoolwork, she had no response. The interviewer than basically indicated some displeasure -- most likely he felt that she wasn't as well-rounded enough to survive med school.

[SunWuKong]

if you're a person of color living in america, you've felt the affects of racism or you've just been ignorant of it.

ok, so how do we quantify that? no offense, but maybe we should award a black kid 10 SAT points everytime he was called the "n" word? and if affirmative action really is for all minorities, why are Asian people not the recipients of it in college admission? what, the fact that i've never used English as a mode of communication before when i came to the US is not a qualified hardship for affirmative action?

if you were denied opportunities, then hell yeah, i believe those kinds of racism affects how much you're able to achieve in your life. i mean, sorry if this is white man's land and that you are not represented. but unless you were denied opportunities to advance in life, how has racism really hindered your achievements? yeah i get pissed that i'm called a chink and i'm pissed that Asian guys are not getting laid on TV, but that doesn't make me do bad in school. it would be an over-generalisation of minority people's hardships and a marginalisation of non-race-based hardships that individuals may have faced in their lives, to award merit based on race.

as for class, true, but a poor white, i believe, has more opportunities than say a poor black. or are they really equal?

sure, i can agree with that the fact a poor white have more opportunities than a poor black. i would agree with using colour as a tie-breaker. but if Michigan was any example of how affirmative action operates, than clearly that is not the case.

you always make cross-class comparisons, i think if you're going to argue that class is more important you've got to compare low class to low class. the opportunities are exacerbated when you compare high vs low, etc.

and cross-class comparisons are not legitimate? i'll agree that race should be used as tie-breakers, but shit, there are plenty of poor Asian kids, no? do they get any preference? no. because they're Asian and not black.

Well, from what I understand, quotas are illegal, but the system that I am comfortable with is the one used in Cornell. Here, you have three piles: the "got the scholastics to get in" pile, the "sorta got the right grades to get in" pile, and the "no way" pile.

The first pile, you need excellent scores to get in. The second pile is where race factors -- and it factors about as well as playing the trombone. While it is a point system, everyone for which it applies was placed in the second category and characteristics like race, as well as other special skills were flagged.

They never pull people from the third pile, regardless of race.

So, my response to the example above, would be that are you sure that the kids turned away with the high SAT scores were turned away because of their race? Schools look for more than numerical scores... you need to have a high SAT score and/or extracurricular activities/volunteer experience, or other well-rounded activities to make it in. It's possible that those with the high scores were turned away because they had little else in their application that distinguished them the rest of the applicants -- and college entrance boards care not only about scholastic achievement but other indicators that tell them that the student will be able to positively contribute to the college community.

They may have a system whereby the actual SAT scores are adjusted according to the educational background of their neighbourhood, or the kids may have had other traits in their application, such as a good essay, or the ability to play some little known instrument.

All the kids were probably in the second pile, where they were one dimensional, or lacking the 'you're in right away!' criteria, and those that were had high scores and were not accepted probably had no extracurricular activities.

As an anecdote, one of my friends didn't get into Cornell med school (though she's a Cornell alum) even though she had awesome grades and a killer MCAT score. She bombed the interview because, when asked what she does outside of schoolwork, she had no response. The interviewer than basically indicated some displeasure -- most likely he felt that she wasn't as well-rounded enough to survive med school.

i'm not really surprised by the kids that were turned away even though they had 1400 or more for their SAT scores, especially seeing how there were as many as 3,200 of them. i'm alarmed that given that trend, there are actually kids getting in with 1000 or less for their SAT scores. seeing how more than half of those low-scoring kids were black or Hispanic, unless there is some trend of black or Hispanic kids being extraordinary trombone players or something, then they were probably given more leeway for admission because they were poor (no, it's not a generalisation to say that blacks and Hispanics are poorer on the average - it's a statistical fact). and all i'm saying is, they better have been pretty damn poor to have made up for 400 points.


and how about the model minority myth? so an Asian kid is not black or Hispanic, all of a sudden he's got to score several hundred points better than the black kid to get in, simply because he's Asian and for some reason, he's supposed to do well???

[hooligan]

ok, so how do we quantify that? no offense, but maybe we should award a black kid 10 SAT points everytime he was called the "n" word? and if affirmative action really is for all minorities, why are Asian people not the recipients of it in college admission? what, the fact that i've never used English as a mode of communication before when i came to the US is not a qualified hardship for affirmative action?

if you were denied opportunities, then hell yeah, i believe those kinds of racism affects how much you're able to achieve in your life. i mean, sorry if this is white man's land and that you are not represented. but unless you were denied opportunities to advance in life, how has racism really hindered your achievements? yeah i get pissed that i'm called a chink and i'm pissed that Asian guys are not getting laid on TV, but that doesn't make me do bad in school. it would be an over-generalisation of minority people's hardships and a marginalisation of non-race-based hardships that individuals may have faced in their lives, to award merit based on race.
what's with the hate rad? of course you can't quantify racism or prejudice, but you've got to do something. racism and it's effects go further than just not getting laid, it shapes the way you view yourself and the environment that you live in. it's insiduous and race has a lot to do with why things are the way they are in America. learning about race and race relations has lead me to believe that racism exists everywhere. everything that we are today is a product of that racism. call my views bleak, but hey, it's life.

sure, i can agree with that the fact a poor white have more opportunities than a poor black. i would agree with using colour as a tie-breaker. but if Michigan was any example of how affirmative action operates, than clearly that is not the case.

and cross-class comparisons are not legitimate? i'll agree that race should be used as tie-breakers, but shit, there are plenty of poor Asian kids, no? do they get any preference? no. because they're Asian and not black.
so, who's got it better, low class asians, low class blacks, or low class whites?

[kitty]

rad, what proves your worth more? A kid who gets a 1400 out of a high school class where 80% gets 1400 or higher? Or a kid who gets 1000 out of a high school class that gets on average 300 or 400 (if they bother to take the test at all)?

[DavidJoo]

so, who's got it better, low class asians, low class blacks, or low class whites?

If you're poor, it sucks either way. I mean I've driven through the Appalachians and been to countless slums where white people couldn't afford to eat if it weren't for food stamps. It's just that these poor whites are so separated from society that you hardly ever see or hear about them. Thus, in the public's eye, "poor whites" are usually depicted as the "trailer trash." And even being that isn't very good.

I will admit that blacks probably do experience a slightly worse life than whites simply based on their race. But if you generalize Affirmative Action around racial lines, you leave open way too many loopholes and failures in the system for rich black kids to get into college, while totally ignoring the kids who live in the white slums.

[SunWuKong]

what's with the hate rad?

sorry. sometimes i get frustrated because i think sometimes minorities are crying victim unnecessarily.

of course you can't quantify racism or prejudice, but you've got to do something. racism and it's effects go further than just not getting laid, it shapes the way you view yourself and the environment that you live in. it's insiduous and race has a lot to do with why things are the way they are in America. learning about race and race relations has lead me to believe that racism exists everywhere. everything that we are today is a product of that racism. call my views bleak, but hey, it's life.

sure, i'll agree with that.
but you've got to consider what the effects of racism are, on the individual. like i said, how has racism obstructed your path to success and achievement? and if it hasn't really stopped you from a level of achievement you would have otherwise attained, then do you really deserve more merit for your race?

[hooligan]

sure, i'll agree with that.
but you've got to consider what the effects of racism are, on the individual. like i said, how has racism obstructed your path to success and achievement? and if it hasn't really stopped you from a level of achievement you would have otherwise attained, then do you really deserve more merit for your race?
i used to think like that^ too, but learning about race has made me realize that a lot of things may be based on race and class more than i'd like to admit.

crying victim? i think it's about time, we've got about 250 years or so of crying victim to do.

[SunWuKong]

rad, what proves your worth more? A kid who gets a 1400 out of a high school class where 80% gets 1400 or higher? Or a kid who gets 1000 out of a high school class that gets on average 300 or 400 (if they bother to take the test at all)?

honestly, the first kid.
however, i am not opposed to awarding more merit for having came out of a poor ass school. that would be part of a class-based affirmative action. whereas i am totally opposed to awarding more merit for coming out of a famous private school, or for your daddy being a rich alum, etc etc.

[DavidJoo]

rad, what proves your worth more? A kid who gets a 1400 out of a high school class where 80% gets 1400 or higher? Or a kid who gets 1000 out of a high school class that gets on average 300 or 400 (if they bother to take the test at all)?

Most public schools actually fit the national model of standardized test results. Of course places like Andover and Exeter have higher averages.

But ya, some inner city schools have totally messed up results and that's a tragedy. But to say that most inner city schools are populated by minorities, and that no good public schools have minorities is wrong. It is truthful to say, however, that most inner city schools are composed of poorer families.

So if you changed Affirmative Action to a class based system, you would STILL benefit all those poor kids at the crappy schools, while denying benefits to rich minorities, and you would also be able to help poor non-minorities.

[SunWuKong]

i used to think like that^ too, but learning about race has made me realize that a lot of things may be based on race and class more than i'd like to admit.

man, you've got to lay off those Asian American studies classes.

:biggrin:

just playing, buddy.

So if you changed Affirmative Action to a class based system, you would STILL benefit all those poor kids at the crappy schools, while denying benefits to rich minorities, and you would also be able to help poor non-minorities.

exactly.

[DavidJoo]

crying victim? i think it's about time, we've got about 250 years or so of crying victim to do.

The Jews have about 2000 years of crying victim to do, the Christians a couple of hundred, the Irish several hundred, the Scots several hundred, the Russians several hundred, muslims several hundred...

Point being, every race on this planet has been wronged in one way or another by a foreign country (or two or three or four or more.)

Shoot nothing would get accomplished if people continued to point fingers at each other and blame each other for things that happened hundreds of years ago.

Don't forget that our current allies and top trading partners were our sworn enemies as early as 40 years ago...

[Tao]

wait..so which option helps my chances of getting into med school more?

:P

[SunWuKong]

wait..so which option helps my chances of getting into med school more?

:P

well, i would pretend to be black and then pretend to be poor for added measures.

at any rate. how about affirmative action for Asians in college admission? they've probably not had received as much racism as blacks and Hispanics, but they've got to have received more than white people. why are Asians not given preference for being Asian? i think this is where the racism argument in support of race-based affirmative action doesn't hold water for me.

and how about the model minority myth? Asians are supposed to do better, despite being a minority, just because they're Asian? why are we having to work harder to achieve higher grades and scores just to be fairly measured?

[ellsworth81]

i'm confused, are you arguing against how affirmative action is being abused/misused by minorities, or just the fact that you don't want affirmative
action at all?

Perhaps i should have been more specific, but i dont necessarily defend affirmative action either. i'd prefer to see something more socio-economic based than anything else.

and what you propose david sounds like a sink or swim solution ... to a certain extent, in an ideal world, i'd be in perfect agreement. but it's not an ideal world. Many minorities have bad situations that extend further than just living in a small apartment. Some have shitty domestic situations - abusive parents, drugs in the house, no role models. It's a bleak situation.

While your family's (and probably a number of other families here) rags to riches story is not so uncommon, I would hope that you have a certain modicum of sympathy for some of these people. I felt lucky as shit not to have live like so many other unfortunate others. And I just wouldn't feel right telling them, "tough shit, that's the breaks." Some people are just that confused and lost in that downward spiral - they need help. There's nothing condescending about it either - some people just want to help others get out of a bad situation.

Which is why on random occasions I'll give a little something to random street vagrants. It probably won't help them in the long run - but at least maybe I was helpful.

However, in the same vein, I don't want to help people blindly as I do for the street people. On a national level, it's got to be targetted - it has to go where it's needed - not just to anyone because of their skin color or heritage.

And have there been any kind of reports/studies analyzing the effectiveness of affirmative action (assuming such a report could be produced)?

And for all those unfortunate whites who lost out on their college admissions, how come they don't have to work harder? Why didn't they study even harder - get that 1600 SAT or whatever. Overcome this new system that has been setup to "shaft" them. Yes, it may sound like a ludicrous question, but why can't they roll up their sleeves just this once, as you are asking for the minorities to do?

But I suspect from some of your statements that you're a person that feels compassion is for the weak. I could be wrong. But I agree with that attitude to a certain extent as well. However, it's only true going by what this "survival of the fitttest" attitude that we've clung to for years. And this un-ending rift between the haves and have-nots will never end because there just isn't enough to go around. Moreover, it appears nobody is interested in changing this system at the cost of their own welfare.

To be honest, sometime in the past, I did think the same way as you do now. But, nowadays ... nyeh. Things seem ... different.

Those, "under-achievers" need a lesson in hard work and discipline, instead of crying to Uncle Sam for more handouts.

And I don't understand why people think it's so necessary to have Affirmative Action. I'll be the first to tell you I grew up in a small dinky apartment, and couldn't even speak English until I was in the 5th grade. Hell, my dad got fired from his job when I was still in high school. I couldn't have even afforded to go to college if I hadn't signed up for an ROTC scholarship.

Yet somehow I managed to do really well in school, scored a 178 on my LSATs last fall, and got into West Point. Tell me, if racism is so rampant, how is it that I as a Korean with no money or political connections, got nominated by not only my US Senator, but also the President of the United States? Is it because I'm smarter and better than everyone else? I think not.

If I can make it and suceed, what excuse does anyone else have? And so what if its unfair. The true measure of a man is how he overcomes adversity. Instead of crying about it, they shuold just work THAT much harder to achieve their goals. "By any means necessary," as Malcom X once said.

Seriously, maybe you guys don't feel this way, but I can tell you that most of the white community at UofM (when I was on student government) despised the whining done by minorities for affirmative action. Is this how you want America to view us as an ethnicity?

[DavidJoo]

And for all those unfortunate whites who lost out on their college admissions, how come they don't have to work harder? Why didn't they study even harder - get that 1600 SAT or whatever. Overcome this new system that has been setup to "shaft" them. Yes, it may sound like a ludicrous question, but why can't they roll up their sleeves just this once, as you are asking for the minorities to do?

Well they actually do have to either work harder, or don't get into the school they want in some cases.

With the exception of 1 or 2 students who sued UofM for its Affirmative Action policies, the vast majority of America has decided to "overcome" this new system instead of crying about it.

[ellsworth81]

Vast majority of America doesn't cry about it? I dunno about that. And there's really no way to dis/prove that. However, the US track record ain't so hot cuz they seem to cry about everything else. Like McDonald's making their kids fat. Like violent movies making their kids psycho. The US loves to complain.

And so, with my impression of people in general, if they could, I'm betting they would. 'Cept they can't. Whites criticizing blacks is not an issue politcians really want to deal with since it's a relatively volatile issue.

Whining isn't limited to just minorities.

Well they actually do have to either work harder, or don't get into the school they want in some cases.

With the exception of 1 or 2 students who sued UofM for its Affirmative Action policies, the vast majority of America has decided to "overcome" this new system instead of crying about it.

[kitty]

honestly, the first kid.
however, i am not opposed to awarding more merit for having came out of a poor ass school. that would be part of a class-based affirmative action. whereas i am totally opposed to awarding more merit for coming out of a famous private school, or for your daddy being a rich alum, etc etc.

wow... you're gonna have to explain to me why you think the first kid has achieved more. I mean, being able to pay to get your kid into a prep school -- i don't think that indicates the child is brighter than the first kid, who literally pulled his/her ass up by the bootstraps and outperformed by a statistically higher percentage than what his/her educational background would've allowed.

Oh, and regarding class-based affirmative action ignores problems of racism, as ben has been putting forth.

Regardless of class, studies have shown that blacks do not perform as well as whites. This is not because of some biological intellectual weakness as some might theorize; actually, studies further suggested that it was actually teachers who were subconsciously buying into stereotypes of dumb blacks and smart whites and Asians, and subconsciously encouraging those children over the other kids. (This was demonstrated by having researchers watch a teacher's technique, and enumerate how many times (s)he rewarded a right answer from a white/Asian student, and how many times (s)he picked on black children in the class, even if they're hand was raised, then comparing it to the grades they were given).

Regardless of class, race still plays a factor in your educational development, and should not be ignored when it comes to affirmative action.

[>:^|]

If we truly believed in a level playing field, we would level the playing field from birth. We would have equal access to education and resources for all children. Affirmative action is too little, too late.

However, I do believe that affirmative action addresses a problem that is rarely discussed. That is, if diversity were not a consideration, the status quo will never change. If employers or college administrators never have to consider race as a factor, Whites will always have an unfair advantage. There are several practices that advantage Whites, such as legacy admits. And in the University of Michigan cases, there were many rejected applicants with better test scores and grades than Jennifer Gratz and Barbara Grutter. Frankly, neither were particularly stellar candidates.

In my personal experience in White-majority environments, I have often found that the people of color had better qualifications than many of the Whites.

I thought the article posted was interesting because it demonstrated how the "model minority" stereotype plays out in real life.

[SunWuKong]

wow... you're gonna have to explain to me why you think the first kid has achieved more. I mean, being able to pay to get your kid into a prep school -- i don't think that indicates the child is brighter than the first kid, who literally pulled his/her ass up by the bootstraps and outperformed by a statistically higher percentage than what his/her educational background would've allowed.

it's simple. because the SAT is a nationally standardised test. which means that the SAT test that students at one school took is not more difficult than the one that the students at the next school took.

the kids at the rich school may have averaged higher on the SATs, but that doesn't mean they haven't worked hard for it. it only means that their environment is more conducive for them to achieve those results, probably because people around them give them more encouragement and guidance. in the same way, just because you score exceptionally higher than your schoolmates on the SATs, doesn't mean that you worked harder than the kids that actually got higher SAT scores in other schools. it could just mean that the kids around you on the average didn't work as hard. remember, the SATs is a standardised test and no kid is taking a more difficult test than the next.

but by all means, if you score exceptionally better than the kids around you, where you came from a shitty school, you deserve to be awarded for that. that's where class-based affirmative action would work. and besides, the SATs is actually the secondary thing that undergraduate programs look at (at least when i was still in school). it's your grades in school that is the most important. if a kid from a poor school outperforming his peers in grades is definitely more worthy than a kid from a rich school performing close to the average amongst his peers.

Oh, and regarding class-based affirmative action ignores problems of racism, as ben has been putting forth.

again, the racism argument doesn't hold water in my opinion because Asian kids are not given preference for being Asian. there have actually been cases where it was more difficult for Asian kids to get in, because they're Asian. if you support the current implementation of affirmative action and believe that it rewards kids for having received racism, then you're basically saying that Asian kids are never on the receiving end of racism.

and if a school has a percentage of black and Hispanic population that more than reflects the national population, you can bet that it wouldn't be giving that much preference to them anymore. but does that mean future black and Hispanic applicants were never on the receiving end of racism? no.

Regardless of class, studies have shown that blacks do not perform as well as whites. This is not because of some biological intellectual weakness as some might theorize; actually, studies further suggested that it was actually teachers who were subconsciously buying into stereotypes of dumb blacks and smart whites and Asians, and subconsciously encouraging those children over the other kids. (This was demonstrated by having researchers watch a teacher's technique, and enumerate how many times (s)he rewarded a right answer from a white/Asian student, and how many times (s)he picked on black children in the class, even if they're hand was raised, then comparing it to the grades they were given).

i'd really like to see read a study of this. seeing how a lot of black kids actually go to schools where the majority is black, that means the teacher would be calling on the only few Asian and white kids repeatedly.

Regardless of class, race still plays a factor in your educational development, and should not be ignored when it comes to affirmative action.

in my opinion, race plays a factor because society forces certain races into certain classes.

[deez nuts]

Those, "under-achievers" need a lesson in hard work and discipline, instead of crying to Uncle Sam for more handouts.

And I don't understand why people think it's so necessary to have Affirmative Action. I'll be the first to tell you I grew up in a small dinky apartment, and couldn't even speak English until I was in the 5th grade. Hell, my dad got fired from his job when I was still in high school. I couldn't have even afforded to go to college if I hadn't signed up for an ROTC scholarship.

Yet somehow I managed to do really well in school, scored a 178 on my LSATs last fall, and got into West Point. Tell me, if racism is so rampant, how is it that I as a Korean with no money or political connections, got nominated by not only my US Senator, but also the President of the United States? Is it because I'm smarter and better than everyone else? I think not.

If I can make it and suceed, what excuse does anyone else have? And so what if its unfair. The true measure of a man is how he overcomes adversity. Instead of crying about it, they shuold just work THAT much harder to achieve their goals. "By any means necessary," as Malcom X once said.

Seriously, maybe you guys don't feel this way, but I can tell you that most of the white community at UofM (when I was on student government) despised the whining done by minorities for affirmative action. Is this how you want America to view us as an ethnicity?

well said and well done

i agree with everything that you have said so far 100%

edit: moving to rant

[kimpossible]

In theory and mission, I agree with affirmative action but in real long term results, I don't see how it can do anything but continue to fail. As long as there are quotas, the minority percentage can be managed. There is no incentive to look past the quota once it's filled.

[hooligan]

Those, "under-achievers" need a lesson in hard work and discipline, instead of crying to Uncle Sam for more handouts.

And I don't understand why people think it's so necessary to have Affirmative Action. I'll be the first to tell you I grew up in a small dinky apartment, and couldn't even speak English until I was in the 5th grade. Hell, my dad got fired from his job when I was still in high school. I couldn't have even afforded to go to college if I hadn't signed up for an ROTC scholarship.

Yet somehow I managed to do really well in school, scored a 178 on my LSATs last fall, and got into West Point. Tell me, if racism is so rampant, how is it that I as a Korean with no money or political connections, got nominated by not only my US Senator, but also the President of the United States? Is it because I'm smarter and better than everyone else? I think not.

If I can make it and suceed, what excuse does anyone else have? And so what if its unfair. The true measure of a man is how he overcomes adversity. Instead of crying about it, they shuold just work THAT much harder to achieve their goals. "By any means necessary," as Malcom X once said.

Seriously, maybe you guys don't feel this way, but I can tell you that most of the white community at UofM (when I was on student government) despised the whining done by minorities for affirmative action. Is this how you want America to view us as an ethnicity?

totally missed this, but why don't you start kowtowing to the white folk already?

the only option you come up with against racism is just simply work harder. you know what? i can't and won't accept racism as easily as you do and i'm not willing to just "work harder" to overcome the racism in america. so, what if white people despise us? that's their problems, they're responsible for the problems with this country just as much as they think people are color are responsible. it's about time they start to recognize that changes must be made in the way that race is viewed in america.

they're perverted sense of justice just makes us work harder, although affirmative action is way too little, and way too late, it's something that we need to look at becuase it HAS been putting people of color in college.

you'd be surprised at what government policies and laws that has helped you and your dad. why can't there be more to help asian immigrants (or all other immigrants)? after all, they have every right to be in college as you do. education is a right, not a privelege.

i used to think like you too, until i realized that there's so much that the government has done to help my family. yes, call me a product of affirmative action, but i believe in it becuase it has helped my family. i'm sure you've benefited in ways you haven't thought abou.

In theory and mission, I agree with affirmative action but in real long term results, I don't see how it can do anything but continue to fail. As long as there are quotas, the minority percentage can be managed. There is no incentive to look past the quota once it's filled.

affirmative action doesn't use quotas. it hasn't failed, only after the uc's stopped using it has the rate of minority (ahem, i mean african and latino) admissions dropped. it was doing a great job before hand, why'd we stop? because white people said so.

[deez nuts]

just because one person's outlook and opinion doesn't appeal to you doesn't mean he/she is kowtowing to whitey.

one can just as easily say, because of the fervent ardor you have shown towards affirmative action, stop playing the victim card.

[kimpossible]

I've thought of working harder as saying "Fuck You" to whitey. I take care of mine and I'm not waiting for you to give me what you feel I deserve.

Yeah, I'm going to take shit for that one. But I prolly deserve it.

[>:^|]

I don't think of it as an "either-or" thing. That is, either you are a whining loser waiting for a handout or you have, through hard work, made it in spite of racism.

When I was growing up, my parents always told us that we had to work "ten times" as hard. They never told us who we had to work ten times harder than. I think we already knew.

But when I'm in a competitive situation and I find that the candidates of color are much more qualified than the Whites, I have to wonder why equally-qualified candidates of color are not being considered.

And I wonder where my parents would be if they just worked as hard as Whites but were considered their equals.

[hooligan]

just because one person's outlook and opinion doesn't appeal to you doesn't mean he/she is kowtowing to whitey.

one can just as easily say, because of the fervent ardor you have shown towards affirmative action, stop playing the victim card.

no, but he's been saying to ignore race, ignore racism. it's the same argument that the dominant culture has been playing up ever since the affirmative action debate started. i'm not playing the victim card, i'm telling it to you like it is. if you don't see racism, then that's your ignorance, not mine.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

no, but he's been saying to ignore race, ignore racism. it's the same argument that the dominant culture has been playing up ever since the affirmative action debate started. i'm not playing the victim card, i'm telling it to you like it is. if you don't see racism, then that's your ignorance, not mine.

Yeah, it's just like telling black people "Hey look, see how many Asians are successful, it's cause they're hard-working and you're not, you only have yourself to blame".

[deez nuts]

no, but he's been saying to ignore race, ignore racism. it's the same argument that the dominant culture has been playing up ever since the affirmative action debate started. i'm not playing the victim card, i'm telling it to you like it is. if you don't see racism, then that's your ignorance, not mine.


sorry, i didn't get the impression that he said to ignore race and racism.

and i'm telling it to you how others might see it.

ignorance? hardly. maybe you're just too racially sensitive.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

sorry, i didn't get the impression that he said to ignore race and racism.

and i'm telling it to you how others might see it.

ignorance? hardly. maybe you're just too racially sensitive.

Perhaps he didn't say that we should ignore it, but he's insinuating that all that is needed to fight or overcome racism is to work harder to even things out and to stop complaining about the discrimination or oppression itself. Just because he was able to make it to the top via hard work doesn't mean everyone else will be able to regardless of his overwhelming circumstances. I'm a lazy ass mofo born into an upper-middle class Asian family, and I can tell you that even with the jackshit that I've accomplished, I've been given more second-chances and opportunities at success than any black kid living in the ghettos with good work ethic (which I don't have) will ever get, and I STILL have yet to succeed or make anything of myself. I have a hard time believing that African Americans would have made the progress they made simply by 'working hard' and 'ceasing to complain' or speak out against discrimination.

[deez nuts]

Perhaps he didn't say that we should ignore it, but he's insinuating that all that is needed to fight or overcome racism is to work harder to even things out and to stop complaining about the discrimination or oppression itself. Just because he was able to make it to the top via hard work doesn't mean everyone else will be able to. I'm a lazy ass mofo born into an upper-middle class Asian family, and I can tell you that even with the jackshit that I've accomplished, I've been given more second-chances and opportunities at success than any black kid living in the ghettos with good work ethic (which I don't have) will ever get, and I STILL have yet to succeed or make anything of myself. I have a hard time believing that African Americans would have made the progress they made simply by 'working hard' and 'ceasing to complain' or speak out against discrimination.

i distinctly recall that he said that affirmative action shouldn't be done away with, but simply revamped so it takes into account both race and financial need.

never said Affirmative Action should be removed. Simply modified so that it benefits people of financial need, rather than strictly on racial lines.

the current system is prone to being abused. what may seem like opportunities to one person may seem like an opportunistic chance to abuse the system to another person.

i never said hardwork was the only solution. i've never said to cease complaining in the face of racism. i've always said that hard work is only part of the equation. but, i don't think it's fair for those that only want to receive and not invest something in return.

[>:^|]

but, i don't think it's fair for those that only want to receive and not invest something in return.

Who?

[deez nuts]

Who?

you know who.

people that abuse the system

[AngryABCGirl]

Man, I said it a millions time and I'll say it a million times again, AA wouldn't be a fucking issue if people would fucking spend money on schools and make them more equal instead of squandering it on welfare or the military or other shit. Fucking up the education system is one of those things that truly fucks over society.

[SunWuKong]

this is what i don't understand. if affirmative action is meant to fight racism, why does it not include Asian people in college admission? is it because of the model minority myth that Asian kids are naturally smarter and therefore the bar is set higher for them? for the supporters of affirmative action, do you think Asian kids should get extra points like blacks and Hispanics, for being Asian?

[hooligan]

you know who.

people that abuse the systemracially sensitive? i think i'm being consciousness, you're just not being consciousness enough. :frown:

this is what i don't understand. if affirmative action is meant to fight racism, why does it not include Asian people in college admission? is it because of the model minority myth that Asian kids are naturally smarter and therefore the bar is set higher for them? for the supporters of affirmative action, do you think Asian kids should get extra points like blacks and Hispanics, for being Asian?it does, southeast asians, pacific islanders, as i recall southeast asians are asians too. asian's aren't discriminated against by affirmativev action. as for your particular example, yes, but there are better ways to using affirmative action.

Man, I said it a millions time and I'll say it a million times again, AA wouldn't be a fucking issue if people would fucking spend money on schools and make them more equal instead of squandering it on welfare or the military or other shit. Fucking up the education system is one of those things that truly fucks over society.unfortunately, we need to fix the little problems first and start looking at the real issues in our society. for example, the prison-industrial complex, why funding to our schools is decreasing while spending for war and the military is increasing?

you know who.

people that abuse the systemwelfare queens? bush made that up (the senior).

[SunWuKong]

it does, southeast asians, pacific islanders, as i recall southeast asians are asians too. asian's aren't discriminated against by affirmativev action. as for your particular example, yes, but there are better ways to using affirmative action.

ok, let me rephrase that then. why are East Asians not given merit for being East Asian? aren't East Asian kids on the receiving end of racism, too?

[hooligan]

ok, let me rephrase that then. why are East Asians not given merit for being East Asian? aren't East Asian kids on the receiving end of racism, too?
yeah, but everyone still thinks we're overrepresented in colleges. :wink:

[SunWuKong]

yeah, but everyone still thinks we're overrepresented in colleges. :wink:

exactly. this is why i think the current implementation of affirmative action has its goal in diversity instead of fighting racism. if racism is considered at all, East Asian kids would also be given preference. and in my opinion, it's not fair to those who have achieved more to give race-based preference to people because their race is under-represented.

but again - i don't want to get rid of affirmative action. i just want it to be class-based, and i also want to get rid of preference given to kids from famous private schools, being children of alums, etc etc.

[hooligan]

exactly. this is why i think the current implementation of affirmative action has its goal in diversity instead of fighting racism. if racism is considered at all, East Asian kids would also be given preference. and in my opinion, it's not fair to those who have achieved more, to give race-based preference to people because their race is under-represented.

but again - i don't want to get rid of affirmative action. i just want it to be class-based, and i also want to get rid of preference given to kids from famous private schools, being children of alums, etc etc.
you have to look at the background of the east asian kids, i think most of them are much better off than their southeast asian bretheren and filipinos. this is where i agree with you, but you can't deny that race plays a large role in diversity. if you do it by class alone you're totally ignoring the race issue.

[kasia]

exactly. this is why i think the current implementation of affirmative action has its goal in diversity instead of fighting racism. if racism is considered at all, East Asian kids would also be given preference. and in my opinion, it's not fair to those who have achieved more to give race-based preference to people because their race is under-represented.

but again - i don't want to get rid of affirmative action. i just want it to be class-based, and i also want to get rid of preference given to kids from famous private schools, being children of alums, etc etc.

but then that would be indicating that, within the class, there are no discrepancies - or at least no substantive ones worth recognizing. i don't agree with that.

[kimpossible]

you have to look at the background of the east asian kids, i think most of them are much better off than their southeast asian bretheren and filipinos. this is where i agree with you, but you can't deny that race plays a large role in diversity. if you do it by class alone you're totally ignoring the race issue.

to me, the idea of 'diversity' in the U.S. is one of the problems. diversity is no more than lip service to socio-economic equality: take white majority and add color until comfortably off-white tone is reached. when mix actually threatens to turn a color rather than remain comfortably off-white, hold off on adding color until white base is assured continued existence.

it's a push-pull relationship. cultivating diversity to feel good about multicultural representation, yet should the core of WASPy authority be threatened all of a sudden it's cries of reverse-racism.

[hooligan]

to me, the idea of 'diversity' in the U.S. is one of the problems. diversity is no more than lip service to socio-economic equality: take white majority and add color until comfortably off-white tone is reached. when mix actually threatens to turn a color rather than remain comfortably off-white, hold off on adding color until white base is assured continued existence.

it's a push-pull relationship. cultivating diversity to feel good about multicultural representation, yet should the core of WASPy authority be threatened all of a sudden it's cries of reverse-racism.
yeah, that's because no one really believes in diversity. it's the people paying the lip service. on the other hand, radical, militant social movement is a good choice compared to diversity, is it not? personally, i'd rather choose diversity over angry, militant colored folk, but to each their own.

reminds me of this one middle-aged, white lady screaming "frank chin's about reverse racism" in my english class yesterday.

[kimpossible]

Now, I am in the Pacific Northwest but I don't know British Columbia that well but I've heard from friends who live there that the sense of diversity there truly seems more true to the spirit of diversity. Number one, can anyone who lives there or has lived there explain what it's like? Number two, who does Number Two work for? Kidding. Number two, would that work as a model for the United States? And if not, why not?

[Tao]

Personally, I've been debating AA with myself for so long that I just don't know what to think anymore.

I know of a good example of AA at work at my school's medical college. The dean, imo, seems to "encourage" under represented minorities to apply for medicine.....now granted before I had considered applying to med school, i wouldn't have given it a second thought...you know? It would've been like, oh yeah sure, more black community representation in the field of medicine, that's great. But then, after I had decided to compete for those coveted few spots in med school, I began to question these practices. WHo really benefiets from such an action? The patients? ...well the answer is, it depends. If a hispanic doctor got into med school due to the fact that he was born that skin color, it might hurt society, due to the fact that he prevented another more qualified white/asian doctor from becoming one. If however, the hispanic doctor treats mostly hispanic patients, then his own cultural/language skills and values will come in handy in treating patients. Granted, my change in attitude is probably because i feel the threat of someone taking my spot...and so that's pretty selfish of me. But then hey, I figure, everyone is selfish to one extent or another. Your basically argueing how are you gonna cut the pie. And frankly now, I still can't make a decision. Ben makes a good point, and so does Rad, and Steve too. I personally don't think i can make a rational and objective decision on this since, well it affects me too much, my opinion would be very biased.

[deez nuts]

racially sensitive? i think i'm being consciousness, you're just not being consciousness enough. :frown:

oh please. come on now. i'm just oozing with consciousness.

welfare queens? bush made that up (the senior).

it's a little more than that.

edit: and tao, you do realize that if you are wait listed in med school, you're spot is essentially bumped up or changed from being wait listed to being accepted, if and only if someone of the same race/ethnicity as you declines their acceptance. the med schools already have an ideal demographic on their incoming first year class. granted those accepted meet the minimum requirements they are looking for, but some are cut more slack than others. the waiting list isn't based on an ascending order from the highest to lowest gpa and mcat scores or how well you did on your interviews. a lot of med schools i know do this.

[hooligan]

oh please. come on now. i'm just oozing with consciousness.



it's a little more than that.

edit: and tao, you do realize that if you are wait listed in med school, you're spot is essentially bumped up or changed from being wait listed to being accepted, if and only if someone of the same race/ethnicity as you declines their acceptance. the med schools already have an ideal demographic on their incoming first year class. granted those accepted meet the minimum requirements they are looking for, but some are cut more slack than others. the waiting list isn't based on an ascending order from the highest to lowest gpa and mcat scores or how well you did on your interviews. a lot of med schools i know do this.
ucla's med center has the pictures of their classes on the walls. i notice they're all pretty diverse, i guess they practice affirmative action under the table?

[Tao]

oh please. come on now. i'm just oozing with consciousness.



it's a little more than that.

edit: and tao, you do realize that if you are wait listed in med school, you're spot is essentially bumped up or changed from being wait listed to being accepted, if and only if someone of the same race/ethnicity as you declines their acceptance. the med schools already have an ideal demographic on their incoming first year class. granted those accepted meet the minimum requirements they are looking for, but some are cut more slack than others. the waiting list isn't based on an ascending order from the highest to lowest gpa and mcat scores or how well you did on your interviews. a lot of med schools i know do this.

what if I decline to put donw my race/ethnicity in the application forms and mcat forms?

[deez nuts]

ucla's med center has the pictures of their classes on the walls. i notice they're all pretty diverse, i guess they practice affirmative action under the table?


did i say all med schools do this? how do you know what demographics they're looking for, for that first year's incoming class? and how do you know the scores of the asian students on that wall? maybe they weren't wait listed and got in right away. how do you know how many asians or how many blacks or how many hispanics are on the waiting list?

in my opinion, it's goes beyond whether or not one gets into college or grad school. i, honestly, believe that the current paradgim for affirmative action, hurts asians. sure, it might've served it's purpose back then. but, that was then and this is now, it's such an antediluvian paradigm.

[hooligan]

did i say all med schools do this? how do you know what demographics they're looking for, for that first year's incoming class? and how do you know the scores of the asian students on that wall? maybe they weren't wait listed and got in right away. how do you know how many asians or how many blacks or how many hispanics are on the waiting list?

in my opinion, it's goes beyond whether or not one gets into college or grad school. i, honestly, believe that the current paradgim for affirmative action, hurts asians. sure, it might've served it's purpose back then. but, that was then and this is now, it's such an antediluvian paradigm.
nope, i was just wondering.

yeah, but this country isn't a meritocracy and just because you get the best grades doesn't mean shit. affirmative action is practiced in the work place where it's helped asians.

[SunWuKong]

you have to look at the background of the east asian kids, i think most of them are much better off than their southeast asian bretheren and filipinos. this is where i agree with you, but you can't deny that race plays a large role in diversity. if you do it by class alone you're totally ignoring the race issue.

but then that would be indicating that, within the class, there are no discrepancies - or at least no substantive ones worth recognizing. i don't agree with that.

well, you can be the recipient of racism, but like i've said before, being called a chink isn't going to deny you opportunities. being rejected for a job because of your race, that is a valid qualifier. and if your race has actually set you back in your amount of achievement, that would reflect on your class and economic status - thus class-based affirmative action would cover that.

it's a push-pull relationship. cultivating diversity to feel good about multicultural representation, yet should the core of WASPy authority be threatened all of a sudden it's cries of reverse-racism.

eh. let's not kid ourselves here. if it's cultural diversity they want, they'd let in more international kids. it's racial diversity and multi-racial representation that they want. not multi-cultural.

what if I decline to put donw my race/ethnicity in the application forms and mcat forms?

they'd take one look at your name and put you in the Asian pile?

[hooligan]

well, you can be the recipient of racism, but like i've said before, being called a chink isn't going to deny you opportunities. being denied opportunities because of your race, that is a valid qualifier. and if your race has actually set you back in your amount of achievement, that would reflect on your class and economic status - thus class-based affirmative action would cover that.
then you think about how east asian families treat education. they sacrifce EVERYTHING to get their kids to prestigious private and public colleges. is this worth it? no, i don't think it is. racism can't be measured along class and economic lines SWK, while it may work ideally, like you said before you can't quantify racism. but not doing anything about it is essentially make it a moot issue, which it isnt.

eh. let's not kid ourselves here. if it's cultural diversity they want, they'd let in more international kids. it's racial diversity and multi-racial representation that they want. not multi-cultural.

they'd take one look at your name and put you in the Asian pile?
you're saying that us ABC's got no culture? you're sadly mistaken!

[deez nuts]

affirmative action is practiced in the work place where it's helped asians.

sure back then. but, i don't see it now. i'll give you that it'll prolly help in certain fields, but at the same time hindering those in other fields.

and one more thing back to your UCLA school of medicine paradigm. let's say for the sake of argument, the board of admissions is accepting 50 incoming first years in one year. let's say that when they generate the spreadsheet ranking highest gpa and mcat score amongst their applicants (which is how they do it in most med schools to see whether or not you get a secondary application), let's say the top 30 are asian. and after the secondary applications are submitted and after the interview process, they weed out, let's say, half the asians, which leaves us with 15 asians. do you think they will accept 15 asians out of a class of 50? now, let's say the cut off demographics for asians for that year was 20%. so they'll take 20% of the 15 applicants left. that's what? 3 asians will get acceptances while the others get wait listed. you can tinker around with the numbers if you want, but the bottomline is, they will not be accepting 30 asians out of a 50 incoming first year slots. you, as an asian, will be competing with other asians for that x% space after competing with the general applicant pool. and this is not taking into account that some med schools do have higher standards for their asian applicants and the overall demographics of their combined first through fourth year classes.

[hooligan]

sure back then. but, i don't see it now. i'll give you that it'll prolly help in certain fields, but at the same time hindering those in other fields.

and one more thing back to your UCLA school of medicine paradigm. let's say for the sake of argument, the board of admissions is accepting 50 incoming first years in one year. let's say that when they generate the spreadsheet ranking highest gpa and mcat score amongst their applicants. let's say the top 30 are asian. and after the interview process, they weed out, let's say, half the asians, 15 asians. do you think they will accept 15 asians out of a class of potential class of 50? let's say the cut off demographics for asians for that year was 20%. so they'll take 20% of the 15 applicants left. that's what, 3 acceptances while the others get wait listed. you can tinker around with the numbers if you want, but the bottomline is, they will not be accepting 30 asians out of a 50 incoming first year slots. you, as an asian, will be competing with other asians for that X% space after competing with the general applicant pool.
hell if i know what ucla med school does, but quotas aren't supposed to exist. besides that's not the way that i know ucla practiced affirmative action. if that's the way they're doing it, i don't agree with it, but you don't know how ucla med does their affirmative action, and as far as i know affirmative action isn't practiced by the state of californ for the last 4 or so years.

[DavidJoo]

unfortunately, we need to fix the little problems first and start looking at the real issues in our society. for example, the prison-industrial complex, why funding to our schools is decreasing while spending for war and the military is increasing?


Actually federal funding for education has been increasing. But according to the Constitution, the states have control over their education, and it is the states that are failing to properly fund schools.

[>:^|]

do you think they will accept 15 asians out of a class of 50?

You know, I agree with this. But I think the top limitations on Asian admits speak more about this whole idea of "meritocracy" than it does about affirmative action.

That is, meritocracy means merit if we still come out on top. And affirmative action means look how liberal and generous we are to those poor old colored people. And overrepresented minorities means this is pretty fucking threatening, they're all taking our spots.

If you look at the affirmative action rhetoric, you'll see that it's plagued with contradictions.

[hooligan]

Actually federal funding for education has been increasing. But according to the Constitution, the states have control over their education, and it is the states that are failing to properly fund schools.
ah, i'm only familiar with california's propensity to build more jails not schools.

[deez nuts]

hell if i know what ucla med school does, but quotas aren't supposed to exist. besides that's not the way that i know ucla practiced affirmative action. if that's the way they're doing it, i don't agree with it, but you don't know how ucla med does their affirmative action, and as far as i know affirmative action isn't practiced by the state of californ for the last 4 or so years.

yes, of course they're not supposed to exist. then explain to me why in almost every med school brochure or in a listing of nationwide med schools that i have seen or have gotten gives me the breakdown of each demographics of each class. and the number always seem to revolve in and around the 15% mark for the top med schools. but that was then and this is now.


besides that's not the way that i know ucla practiced affirmative action. if that's the way they're doing it, i don't agree with it, but you don't know how ucla med does their affirmative action, and as far as i know affirmative action isn't practiced by the state of californ for the last 4 or so years.

then i suggest you apply to only UC medical schools. cuz, i'm pretty sure back then it was rumored that stanford school of medicine did it.

[hooligan]

If you look at the affirmative action rhetoric, you'll see that it's plagued with contradictions.
point them out to me.

[SunWuKong]

then you think about how east asian families treat education. they sacrifce EVERYTHING to get their kids to prestigious private and public colleges. is this worth it? no, i don't think it is.

what's your point? doesn't this support the fact that i think race-based affirmative action doesn't work in its current implementation?

racism can't be measured along class and economic lines SWK, while it may work ideally, like you said before you can't quantify racism. but not doing anything about it is essentially make it a moot issue, which it isnt.

right, you can't quantify racism. but you can quantify class and economic background. and if racism has actually negatively affected your lot in life, then it'll reflect in your class and economic situation.

[hooligan]

yes, of course they're not supposed to exist. then explain to me why in almost every med school brochure or in a listing of nationwide med schools that i have seen or have gotten gives me the breakdown of each demographics of each class. and the number always seem to revolve in and around the 15% mark for the top med schools. but that was then and this is now.

then i suggest you apply to only UC medical schools. cuz, i'm pretty sure back then it was rumored that stanford school of medicine did it.so, let's just bring back affirmative action so then it'll be out in the open, you can't say they're doing anything wrong. this way, you can now blame affirmative action instead of blaming a board for why med schools are doing the things that they do. you're making excuses for a sense of meritocracy that doesn't exist in america. there's probably huge problems that exist in med school admissions, but let's discuss college admissions.

what's your point? doesn't this support the fact that i think race-based affirmative action doesn't work in its current implementation?


right, you can't quantify racism. but you can quantify class and economic background. and if racism has actually negatively affected your lot in life, then it'll reflect in your class and economic situation.no, what i'm saying is that why does this justify why class based affirmative action when the reasons why asian americans are getting into colleges are independent of their class?

not necessarily, what i'm saying is that the affects of racism are felt throughout, it's not as though you can say just because so-and-so's rich that they're shielded from racism, which is what you're implying with a class based system.

[SunWuKong]

sure back then. but, i don't see it now. i'll give you that it'll prolly help in certain fields, but at the same time hindering those in other fields.

i don't really think affirmative action is implemented in the work place anyway. there's definitely anti-discrimination measures, but that's not the same as affirmative action.

and one more thing back to your UCLA school of medicine paradigm. let's say for the sake of argument, the board of admissions is accepting 50 incoming first years in one year. let's say that when they generate the spreadsheet ranking highest gpa and mcat score amongst their applicants (which is how they do it in most med schools to see whether or not you get a secondary application), let's say the top 30 are asian. and after the secondary applications are submitted and after the interview process, they weed out, let's say, half the asians, which leaves us with 15 asians. do you think they will accept 15 asians out of a class of 50? now, let's say the cut off demographics for asians for that year was 20%. so they'll take 20% of the 15 applicants left. that's what? 3 asians will get acceptances while the others get wait listed. you can tinker around with the numbers if you want, but the bottomline is, they will not be accepting 30 asians out of a 50 incoming first year slots. you, as an asian, will be competing with other asians for that x% space after competing with the general applicant pool. and this is not taking into account that some med schools do have higher standards for their asian applicants and the overall demographics of their combined first through fourth year classes.

that's really fucked up.

[kimpossible]

That is, meritocracy means merit if we still come out on top. And affirmative action means look how liberal and generous we are to those poor old colored people. And overrepresented minorities means this is pretty fucking threatening, they're all taking our spots.


Can we still submit quoted posts? That's a beauty.

[hooligan]

Can we still submit quoted posts? That's a beauty.
there's no such things as spots or quotas when we're discussing affirmative action, it's just perverted rhetoric that people who want to destory affirmative action are pushing.

[deez nuts]

so, let's just bring back affirmative action so then it'll be out in the open, you can't say they're doing anything wrong. this way, you can now blame affirmative action instead of blaming a board for why med schools are doing the things that they do. you're making excuses for a sense of meritocracy that doesn't exist in america. there's probably huge problems that exist in med school admissions, but let's discuss college admissions.



you don't think the same thing goes on in private colleges, say the much sought after ivy leagues the pride and joy of asian mom and dads everywhere?

let's take it back to affirmative action:

i say it don't work. it's an antiquated system, prone to being abused. it may have benefited asians in the past, but not now.

[hooligan]

you don't think the same thing goes on in private colleges, say the much sought after ivy leagues the pride and joy of asian mom and dads everywhere?the privates are overrated anyways ;). i'm a public kid, all the way. i think affirmative action is only successful if people understand and accept the implementation. at ucla, it was done in a fair and acceptable way, it wasn't until people started to think that "spots" were taken and "quotas" to fill up the school with colored people that they started complaing.

you don't think the same thing goes on in private colleges, say the much sought after ivy leagues the pride and joy of asian mom and dads everywhere?

let's take it back to affirmative action:

i say it don't work. it's an antiquated system, prone to being abused. it may have benefited asians in the past, but not now.southeast asians and pacific islanders. here's another argument. we should support it because it helps minorities, in other words, you can't predict how asians will do in years to come and if we dont' support it and years later we end up in the same position as african americans and latino americans, what are we gonna do?

[deez nuts]

the privates are overrated anyways ;). i'm a public kid, all the way. i think affirmative action is only successful if people understand and accept the implementation. at ucla, it was done in a fair and acceptable way, it wasn't until people started to think that "spots" were taken and "quotas" to fill up the school with colored people that they started complaing.



that's why you're for affirmative action. and not everyone lives in the land of cali and can go to ucla. hell it's near impossible for an out of stater to get into the top UC schools from what i hear. plus not everyone in cali wants to go to UCLA or a UC school.

you're being selfish

[hooligan]

that's why you're for affirmative action. and not everyone lives in the land of cali and can go to ucla. hell it's near impossible for an out of stater to get into the top UC schools from what i hear. plus not everyone in cali wants to go to UCLA or a UC school.

you're being selfish
lol. fair enough. i want everyone to come here because we've got a great asian am program and i think everyone should get a piece.

[>:^|]

point them out to me.

Sorry, I guess I should have said anti-affirmative-action rhetoric. Basically, there is an argument that centers around merit. However, if merit really were the primary concern, we wouldn't see such interesting ways of attempting to limit Asian admits.

Teresa Chi-Ching Sun wrote about affirmative action and Asian Americans at UCB. There's another Asian American woman who wrote a case study that I believe was about the U of C schools, but I can't remember her name offhand. *thinks hard*

I think the one advantage of race-based affirmative action is that I believe that if race were not a consideration, the selected few would be White.

[SunWuKong]

no, what i'm saying is that why does this justify why class based affirmative action when the reasons why asian americans are getting into colleges are independent of their class?

i still don't understand. Asians Americans are getting into college independent of class. so?

not necessarily, what i'm saying is that the affects of racism are felt throughout, it's not as though you can say just because so-and-so's rich that they're shielded from racism, which is what you're implying with a class based system.

no, that's not what i'm saying. i'm saying that if you're rich, then the effects of racism has not hindered you. and if you're rich, it probably means you've had more doors opened for you than a poor kid that hasn't been the recipient of racism.

and let me say again, i would agree with using race as a tie-breaker. so in a situation where a poor white kid and a poor black kid has about the same scores and grades, i think the black kid should get in. but right now, race is not used as a tie-breaker. being of a non-Asian minority race, you'd get awarded preference for admission automatically.

[hooligan]

i still don't understand. Asians Americans are getting into college independent of class. so?

and let me say again, i would agree with using race as a tie-breaker. so in a situation where a poor white kid and a poor black kid has about the same scores and grades, i think the black kid should get in. but right now, race is not used as a tie-breaker. being of a non-Asian minority race, you'd get awarded preference for admission automatically.
if asian americans are getting in, independent of class, then race is the only way you can let them in. :)

if you're using race as a tie-breaker, then it's still a racial issue, is it not? just because you can quantify one and not the other does not give the former more weight in decisions. some asian ethnicities are protected by affirmative action.

[SunWuKong]

hell if i know what ucla med school does, but quotas aren't supposed to exist. besides that's not the way that i know ucla practiced affirmative action. if that's the way they're doing it, i don't agree with it, but you don't know how ucla med does their affirmative action, and as far as i know affirmative action isn't practiced by the state of californ for the last 4 or so years.

no no. the quotas that are supposed to be illegal are quotas for a minimum number of ethnic minorities, because that would possibly mean accepting unqualified minorities. what CSB has mentioned is a cap on the maximum number of specific racial groups. that is not the same.

[hooligan]

no no. the quotas that are supposed to be illegal are quotas for a minimum number of ethnic minorities, because that would possibly mean accepting unqualified minorities. what CSB has mentioned is a cap on the maximum number of specific racial groups. that is not the same.i can't respond anymorrrreeeeee. i've got to study! you guys win! :rolleyes: someone ban ME!

[SunWuKong]

southeast asians and pacific islanders. here's another argument. we should support it because it helps minorities, in other words, you can't predict how asians will do in years to come and if we dont' support it and years later we end up in the same position as african americans and latino americans, what are we gonna do?

that's why there're anti-discrimination measures. that's not the same as giving people preference because of their race.

[kasia]

my point was more along the lines of - i don't get as much shit as black people. i just don't. it doesn't mean that i don't face racism or there aren't other forms of racism that are unique to asians. it doesn't make racism against asians any less hurtful. but i went to early elementary school in the inner city, and i saw firsthand how my teachers treated me, my latino peers, and my black peers. and the black kids had it worst.

[deez nuts]

bah, all circuitous mumbo jumbo.

it should mostly boil down to the most qualified. the student with the best scores and/or best interview or the potential employee with the best resume. with other extenuating factors being secondary.

[SunWuKong]

if asian americans are getting in, independent of class, then race is the only way you can let them in. :)

huh? uh... how about that they're getting in because they're making the grade? because they sure as hell aren't given preference for being Asian.

if you're using race as a tie-breaker, then it's still a racial issue, is it not? just because you can quantify one and not the other does not give the former more weight in decisions. some asian ethnicities are protected by affirmative action.

there's a difference between using race as a tie-breaker and giving extra points to an applicant based on his race, right?

my point was more along the lines of - i don't get as much shit as black people. i just don't. it doesn't mean that i don't face racism or there aren't other forms of racism that are unique to asians. it doesn't make racism against asians any less hurtful. but i went to early elementary school in the inner city, and i saw firsthand how my teachers treated me, my latino peers, and my black peers. and the black kids had it worst.

so here're a couple of my points where race-based affirmative action, at least in its current form, does not address the issue of racism, but merely addresses the goal of pulling the racial makeup of student populations to better reflect the racial makeup of the national population:

1) how has racism set you back in the amount of achievement you would have attained, if you had been white?