Sorry To Be The One To Say This...

[angel nympho]

I understand how everybody here is outraged that Asian Americans are omitted so much in the media. Honestly, I think it's stupid that a lot of times Asians play the loser parts, but I realize how small of a minority we actually are, even though in places around where I live, it doesn't always seem that way.

I just wanted to point out, though... shows and movies are made for entertainment... not to make a political statement. I give most people the benefit of the doubt, and I don't think that every director/producer's first thought in their mind should be required to be "Oh, shit, we have to include Asians!!!"

Any thoughts? I don't mean to be the whole "anti-activist" of the crowd... but I think my opinions are valid.



<!--EDIT|angel nympho|Aug 28 2002, 07:40 AM-->

[Arex]

The problem is, even though it's supposedly "just entertainment," television and movies can have a real impact on how people perceive the world we live in. Example, do you think the antiquated stereotype in America of all Asians being martial arts masters would have come about if Bruce Lee movies were never widely released here? Ever so slowly, that stereotype is fading because we're starting to see Asian actors in other types of roles. This is why Better Luck Tomorrow by Justin Lin has drawn a bit of criticism. After seeing it, much of America will probably see Asian American youths in a whole new light, and not necessarily for the better. But at least it actually does depict at least one small slice of reality.

While I don't expect every director/producer to necessarily make it a first priority to cater to the PC police, I don't think it's too much to ask that movies and television shows that purport to be a dramatization of reality at least try to somewhat fairly depict that reality. For example, Presidio Med. I understand that they've gotta make it appeal to the broadest possible audience (read: whites) but given the statistics other people here've given regarding the population of San Francisco and the medical profession as a whole, I think it's absolutely ridiculous that there's not even one Asian regular on the show.

My two cents...

Alex



<!--EDIT|Arex|Aug 28 2002, 12:40 AM-->

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 28 2002, 12:40 AM
I just wanted to point out, though... shows and movies are made for entertainment... not to make a political statement. I give most people the benefit of the doubt, and I don't think that every director/producer's first thought in their mind should be required to be "Oh, shit, we have to include Asians!!!"
I used to believe this too. At the back of my mind, I'd watch certain movies or television programs and think, "Wait, maybe they didn't intend for it to be like that..." But directors and producers are so friggen anal about every reel of film that goes into a production, of course every message conveyed is a message they wanted you to receive -- whether it's the exclusion of Asian actors, like in Blue Crush, or the portrayal of Asians as the enemy (and a whole lot of other things), like in Rising Sun.

I remember watching something a few months back on how some filmmakers were resolving to present America-positive films in the wake of 9/11. A comparison was made to the propaganda-type films of WWII, but as one director pointed out, the American public today wouldn't stomach such gushy, pro-USA cinema; instead, the director said, filmmakers would rely on more subtle image-branding, a practice that every director is familiar with.

[boycott]

Angelnympho,
I find it fantasticly amazing that you as an Asian American have never had it occur to you that there should be Asian Americans on TV and the movies instead of Asians and European Americans. You've never imagined how it would be like to have a high budget Hollywood movie starring an all Asian American cast? not that it would be possible any time soon or within our lifetime. The chances of me hitting the lottery are greater. So as an Asian American you've never felt that Asian Americans are special that we are different from the Asians and the whites? Growing up as a child you've never wondered why there weren't any shows with Asian Americans who spoke English well? You watch entertainment with no feelings? I bet you're more likely to see someone like Brad Pitt and think he's cute than to see someone like Jet Li and think he's cute am I right? :huh:

[DaBestSpooner]

Originally posted by boycott@Aug 28 2002, 05:54 AM
Angelnympho,
I find it fantasticly amazing that you as an Asian American have never had it occur to you that there should be Asian Americans on TV and the movies instead of Asians and European Americans. You've never imagined how it would be like to have a high budget Hollywood movie starring an all Asian American cast? not that it would be possible any time soon or within our lifetime. The chances of me hitting the lottery are greater. So as an Asian American you've never felt that Asian Americans are special that we are different from the Asians and the whites? Growing up as a child you've never wondered why there weren't any shows with Asian Americans who spoke English well? You watch entertainment with no feelings? I bet you're more likely to see someone like Brad Pitt and think he's cute than to see someone like Jet Li and think he's cute am I right? :huh:
brad pitt is fucking hot

jet is ugly

[kimpossible]

I think Jet Li is hot. Not in a soft model-boy way but that doesn't mean an Asian man has to look like a freaking Adonis in order to deserve attention from someone else. Dunno what it is for angel, but I think it's his physical prowess that turns me on. Agility, flexibility, strength, endurance.

Better than some smoky, drinky pretty boy that ends up being a two-minute brutha.



<!--EDIT|Hello_Hapa|Aug 28 2002, 07:40 AM-->

[kimpossible]

media issues> In my humble little opinion, I don't really care if Asian America gets a slice of the big white American media pie. I think things like chasing down mainstream recognition and awards like the Academy only panders to white America. As if we will be using their meter stick forever to gauge our success. I'd rather watch my Asian-made Asian flicks.

On the other hand, I am reminded how much Asian Americans continue to be represented by the legacy of yellow face and Bonanza stereotypes when shit like [what was the name of that movie?] Lost Empire [?] hits the airwaves.

In summary, while I'm not overly concerned with the recognition of mainstream American media, I think we always have to watch our ass because America has a love/hate relationship with Asians. The dehumanizing or demonizing of Asians by the mainstream seems to be pretty persistent.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 28 2002, 02:40 AM
I just wanted to point out, though... shows and movies are made for entertainment... not to make a political statement. &nbsp;I give most people the benefit of the doubt, and I don't think that every director/producer's first thought in their mind should be required to be "Oh, shit, we have to include Asians!!!"

Any thoughts? &nbsp;I don't mean to be the whole "anti-activist" of the crowd... but I think my opinions are valid.
I agree with you that it's not the directors' or producers' inherent responsibility to make fair social portrayals. They are only there to make shows that will sell to the widest range of audience in the US. However...

1) Their idea of what they think their audience wants is not always correct. Are there some national surveys that concluded that people generally don't want to see Asians in the spotlight? No.

2) The irony of the very fact that it is not their responsibility makes it naturally our responsibility to put pressure on them to include Asian faces in their productions. And this is the exact some reason Asian Americans need to be more politically active about Asian American issues in general, not just media portrayal, because we are an extremely small minority. It is nobody's responsibility but our own to make sure that we are treated fairly. That is EXACTLY why we need to talk about Asian American issues, and take necessary actions, like boycotting a certain film, spreading the word about A&F, etc etc.

boring as it may sometimes seem, do you understand why we are always talking about these things?



<!--EDIT|SunWuKung|Aug 28 2002, 11:01 AM-->

[kasia]

in response to the population argument--we make up approximately 5% of the country's population now. do you think 5% of the media's roles are given to asians?

[angel nympho]

Arex -- But isn't the martial arts thing sort of valid? I mean, I know that not ALL Asians are black belts and all that, but shouldn't we be proud that we were the ones who cultivated the entire martial arts arena? I don't think that rumor came about just because of Bruce Lee movies. I mean, I don't think all whites are like aggressive, explosive Rambo-type guys because of Bruce Willis... But I totally see your point because for a while Asians were depicted as nothing BUT martial arts people. Besides, the stereotypes we have to deal with nowdays are once that didn't really come from the media. At least the ones I feel like we have to deal with don't. I don't know, I personally just don't feel like stereotypes against Asians now days have much to do with the media.

achtungbaby -- I think you're right that directors are really anal about a lot of things, such as what roles the Asian people cast in their films get. But I think that when they don't include very many Asians in their film that doesn't really have much to do with Asians at all anyway... it's not that insulting towards us. And I totally hear you on the 9/11 thing. I remember that all the war-related movies that DIDN'T portray America as the hero were pulled, and the ones that DID were rushed to the big screen. Either way, the patriotic movies were great for that time because it was totally what audiences wanted to see.

boycott -- I think if there was a movie with an entirely Asian cast, it wouldn't do so hot in box offices. And I think that's most of the reason they don't get made. Sorry. And I know we're different, but in no way are we superior. I don't go everywhere expecting special treatment because of my skin color. Growing up as a child I knew there weren't a lot of shows with Asian people because I knew there weren't that many Asian people to make them. And I knew for damn sure that I wasn't expecting some culture-conscious white person to make one because of COURSE he'd be picked out by the Asian community for messing up on some details and be totally fucking bombarded with complaints from people like you. Not that I watch entertainment emotionlessly, I just think entertainment is made to shape the youth anymore. Oh yeah, and you're right. I don't find Jet Li good looking. Sorry. It's called preference. He's a little too old for me. I thought Russell Wong was hot, though... so umm...and what did that have to do with anything? I'm sure you think there's a white girl out there who's hotter than Lucy Liu. If you're going to compare Brad Pitt to an Asian guy, at least choose an Asian guy that CAN compare.

Hello_Hapa -- You're right about Jet Li. He's got sort of this cute appeal, when I saw him on Jay Leno. But he's not ... what I see as hot. You make a good point about Asians in the media. Just because a white person doesn't give you an award, doesn't mean you aren't good enough. Just goes to show how much politics is actually involved in awards and such. Of COURSE we won't win one. But personally, I really think a lot of Asians are breaking new ground for us in the media. I see an some Asians on normal things like newscasts and on CNN, and I think THAT is where we should strive for equality. Everybody knows the movies are made to sensationalize.

SunWuKung --- Good point. I can't really argue with that.

kasia -- We may not be all over Hollywood yet, but Asians have come really far within the past decade, and America knows it. Big companies (Charles Schwab, AT&T, etc) are starting to target Asians for business after realizing that the Asian population has grown about... 75%. Not only that... We're richer than anybody every thought we'd be. One-third of Asians earn at least $75,000 annually. Those are real numbers, guys. Isn't equality here more important than getting on TV?

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 28 2002, 11:34 AM
Not only that... We're richer than anybody every thought we'd be. &nbsp;One-third of Asians earn at least $75,000 annually. &nbsp;Those are real numbers, guys.
Who thought we were going to be poor? 1/3 of all Asians earn $75K?!? What statistic is this?

[achtungbaby]

And by the way -- off-topic, but, I don't think Jet Li is hot either. I don't mean to be a Jet Li-hater or anything, but he isn't what I would define as "hot"...Daniel Wu, the guy kasia gets her panties in a bunch for, is a lot better looking. I also saw Jet Li on The Tonight Show and he came off as really fem.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Aug 28 2002, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 28 2002, 11:34 AM
Not only that... We're richer than anybody every thought we'd be. One-third of Asians earn at least $75,000 annually. Those are real numbers, guys.
Who thought we were going to be poor? 1/3 of all Asians earn $75K?!? What statistic is this?
demographics.com.... it was in an article. i didnt mean to say anybody thought we'd be poor, but its not often that an entire minority group can be so successful.

[kasia]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Aug 28 2002, 08:25 PM
And by the way -- off-topic, but, I don't think Jet Li is hot either. I don't mean to be a Jet Li-hater or anything, but he isn't what I would define as "hot"...Daniel Wu, the guy kasia gets her panties in a bunch for, is a lot better looking. I also saw Jet Li on The Tonight Show and he came off as really fem.
heh, re: daniel wu.

actually, my brother said the same thing after watching the tonight show. apparently, jet li's voice in all of the cantonese movies before were dubbed--it wasn't the tonight show that most found out that his voice was pretty high. i'm still a jet li fan though.

[kasia]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 28 2002, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by achtungbaby@Aug 28 2002, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 28 2002, 11:34 AM
Not only that... We're richer than anybody every thought we'd be. One-third of Asians earn at least $75,000 annually. Those are real numbers, guys.
Who thought we were going to be poor? 1/3 of all Asians earn $75K?!? What statistic is this?
demographics.com.... it was in an article. i didnt mean to say anybody thought we'd be poor, but its not often that an entire minority group can be so successful.
they measure it by household and conveniently leave out the fact that most asian households have, on the average, 7-10 people, while white household have 3-5.

[thaite]

Films and television shows may be make-believe, but bias is not.

and this?

shows and movies are made for entertainment... not to make a political statement.

You're kidding, right? Political statements are nearly always infused with films and television.

Besides, the stereotypes we have to deal with nowdays are once that didn't really come from the media.

Well, you didn't have to attend jr. high when the only Asian on film was Long Duck Dong. I didn't know any Long Duck Dongs growing up, but hey, there he was as the prime representative of Asian culture.

And 75k? Sheeyit, I can't wait to be earning that.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by kasia@Aug 28 2002, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 28 2002, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by achtungbaby@Aug 28 2002, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 28 2002, 11:34 AM
Not only that... We're richer than anybody every thought we'd be. One-third of Asians earn at least $75,000 annually. Those are real numbers, guys.
Who thought we were going to be poor? 1/3 of all Asians earn $75K?!? What statistic is this?
demographics.com.... it was in an article. i didnt mean to say anybody thought we'd be poor, but its not often that an entire minority group can be so successful.
they measure it by household and conveniently leave out the fact that most asian households have, on the average, 7-10 people, while white household have 3-5.
Well, since I lived in Irvine my entire life... households of like 4-5 making over $75,000 was like... totally average.


Is there really 7-10 people on average in an Asian household?!?? SHit, then mine is really small. I mean.. you got... parents, kids.... who else???? sometimes a grandparent, I guess, but they usually don't bring much income in.... who else makes money in the household?

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by buoywonder@Aug 28 2002, 08:50 PM
Films and television shows may be make-believe, but bias is not.

and this?

shows and movies are made for entertainment... not to make a political statement.

You're kidding, right? Political statements are nearly always infused with films and television.

Besides, the stereotypes we have to deal with nowdays are once that didn't really come from the media.

Well, you didn't have to attend jr. high when the only Asian on film was Long Duck Dong. I didn't know any Long Duck Dongs growing up, but hey, there he was as the prime representative of Asian culture.

And 75k? Sheeyit, I can't wait to be earning that.
Well I know that earlier on, television and movies were purely to try to get the public to think one way or another... but it's not really like that anymore. I guess they still make political statements, but it's more like... comments on society to make people think more than it is trying to convince people about the vices of a certain ethnicity.

Nowdays, people save the political statements for an audience that can actually be reached.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 28 2002, 05:43 PM
Well I know that earlier on, television and movies were purely to try to get the public to think one way or another... but it's not really like that anymore. I guess they still make political statements, but it's more like... comments on society to make people think more than it is trying to convince people about the vices of a certain ethnicity.

Nowdays, people save the political statements for an audience that can actually be reached.
i think it would be naive to think that even though shows aren't trying to make any statements, they are not indirectly making a statement or influencing the way people think.

i don't think hollywood has an agenda against asian people. i think it's just out to make money and it chooses to ignore the asian american market because it's so small. but that's all the more reason why we need to raise more awareness and sensitivity about asian american portrayal in popular media.

so going back to your original statement:

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 28 2002, 02:40 AM
I give most people the benefit of the doubt, and I don't think that every director/producer's first thought in their mind should be required to be "Oh, shit, we have to include Asians!!!"

i think the whole point here is we want that to be one of their thoughts.

[thaite]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 28 2002, 03:43 PM
Well I know that earlier on, television and movies were purely to try to get the public to think one way or another... but it's not really like that anymore. I guess they still make political statements, but it's more like... comments on society to make people think more than it is trying to convince people about the vices of a certain ethnicity.

Nowdays, people save the political statements for an audience that can actually be reached.
Some statements are overt, some are subvert, but to think that they aren't there, or are there but unpurposely is ... well, naive.

[kimpossible]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Aug 28 2002, 12:25 PM
And by the way -- off-topic, but, I don't think Jet Li is hot either. I don't mean to be a Jet Li-hater or anything, but he isn't what I would define as "hot"...Daniel Wu, the guy kasia gets her panties in a bunch for, is a lot better looking. I also saw Jet Li on The Tonight Show and he came off as really fem.
Granted, Jet isn't in the same league as some of the younger, taller guys with refined features. At first sight he's a bit weird looking but the man can move. For me, a guy doesn't necessarily have to be perfection incarnate to be sexy.

There are a lot of 'sexy' men I don't find sexy. Brad Pitt, Matt Damon, Ben Affleck, Tom Cruise. Am I weird? Prolly. I've seen Daniel Wu and he doesn't do anything for me. I'm not saying Daniel Wu isn't sexy. I'm just trying to express that I think the everyday looking guy can be sexy too.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by buoywonder@Aug 29 2002, 01:25 AM
Some statements are overt, some are subvert, but to think that they aren't there, or are there but unpurposely is ... well, naive.
No, I DO know that there are statements being made, but I don't think they involve racism. Usually movies talk more about the state of society... materialism, knowing the importance of family or friends, overcoming challenge, etc. Most movies, I believe, are made to encourage people in the way they think (to strive to become a better person) or to bring people together... Not push them apart.



Oh yeah, and SunWuKung... I know that it would be NICE if directors thought "shit! we forgot to include Asians!" but... Asian or not, we're all people, and to be expected to be treated special because you're Asian is just like ... I don't know. I don't see a huge difference between being treated worse because we're not white, and being treated better because we're not white. ... Did that even make ANY sense?? Dahhh... =x

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 28 2002, 11:31 PM
Oh yeah, and SunWuKung... I know that it would be NICE if directors thought "shit! we forgot to include Asians!" but... Asian or not, we're all people, and to be expected to be treated special because you're Asian is just like ... I don't know. I don't see a huge difference between being treated worse because we're not white, and being treated better because we're not white. ... Did that even make ANY sense?? Dahhh... =x
on the other hand, i don't think producers and directors including asians in their cast would mean that they're giving asians special treatment. i think that is giving asians equal treatment. there is a difference.

media portrayal or not, there are many areas where asians are treated worse. we are not asking for better treatment than white people. we are asking for equal treatment.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Aug 29 2002, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 28 2002, 11:31 PM
Oh yeah, and SunWuKung... I know that it would be NICE if directors thought "shit! we forgot to include Asians!" but... Asian or not, we're all people, and to be expected to be treated special because you're Asian is just like ... I don't know. I don't see a huge difference between being treated worse because we're not white, and being treated better because we're not white. ... Did that even make ANY sense?? Dahhh... =x
on the other hand, i don't think producers and directors including asians in their cast would mean that they're giving asians special treatment. i think that is giving asians equal treatment. there is a difference.

media portrayal or not, there are many areas where asians are treated worse. we are not asking for better treatment than white people. we are asking for equal treatment.
A lot of movies are out that black people aren't included in... a lot of movies are out that other minorities aren't included in... Asians don't have to be in every single film made... white people don't have to be in every single film made either, for that matter. But just because we're not in every movie doesn't mean we're not treated equally. I suppose it depends on the roles? I'd definately rather see one Asian person portrayed in a positive light, than three movies with tons of Asians playing... weird out-there type roles.

... it WOULD be special treatment if they MADE SURE to include Asians in their films... as opposed to... treated all the actors that auditioned for parts as equals... just because the Asian doesn't win doesn't mean he/she wasn't treated equally.



<!--EDIT|angel nympho|Aug 30 2002, 12:00 AM-->

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 29 2002, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Aug 29 2002, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 28 2002, 11:31 PM
Oh yeah, and SunWuKung... I know that it would be NICE if directors thought "shit! we forgot to include Asians!" but... Asian or not, we're all people, and to be expected to be treated special because you're Asian is just like ... I don't know. I don't see a huge difference between being treated worse because we're not white, and being treated better because we're not white. ... Did that even make ANY sense?? Dahhh... =x
on the other hand, i don't think producers and directors including asians in their cast would mean that they're giving asians special treatment. i think that is giving asians equal treatment. there is a difference.

media portrayal or not, there are many areas where asians are treated worse. we are not asking for better treatment than white people. we are asking for equal treatment.
A lot of movies are out that black people aren't included in... a lot of movies are out that other minorities aren't included in... Asians don't have to be in every single film made... white people don't have to be in every single film made either, for that matter. But just because we're not in every movie doesn't mean we're not treated equally. I suppose it depends on the roles? I'd definately rather see one Asian person portrayed in a positive light, than three movies with tons of Asians playing... weird out-there type roles.

... it WOULD be special treatment if they MADE SURE to include Asians in their films... as opposed to... treated all the actors that auditioned for parts as equals... just because the Asian doesn't win doesn't mean he/she wasn't treated equally.
do you consider a TV show about a hospital in San Francisco that was written with no Asian people in the main cast to be equal treatment? i certainly don't. it's not just about the audition.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Morientes@Aug 30 2002, 10:26 AM
on the topic of jet li -- i'd never really thought much about the guy. he tries to pass off as the new bruce lee but in my opinion does'nt achieve this. movie wise - to be honest i can't stand his movies and i don't watch them (HK or hollywood). it's just that he lacks - in my opinion - charisma, personality - etc. the reliance upon computer generated special effects makes all the action scenes comedic in effect.

btw -- i think 90% of mainstream hollywood movies suck anyway (most films just don't relate to me).
yeah i never really liked jet li. his characters are always the same ultimate do-gooder traditional chinese virtuous hero. well i was pleasantly surprised that he played a bad guy in lethal weapon 4.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Aug 30 2002, 02:01 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 29 2002, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Aug 29 2002, 05:01 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 28 2002, 11:31 PM
Oh yeah, and SunWuKung... I know that it would be NICE if directors thought "shit! we forgot to include Asians!" but... Asian or not, we're all people, and to be expected to be treated special because you're Asian is just like ... I don't know. I don't see a huge difference between being treated worse because we're not white, and being treated better because we're not white. ... Did that even make ANY sense?? Dahhh... =x
on the other hand, i don't think producers and directors including asians in their cast would mean that they're giving asians special treatment. i think that is giving asians equal treatment. there is a difference.

media portrayal or not, there are many areas where asians are treated worse. we are not asking for better treatment than white people. we are asking for equal treatment.
A lot of movies are out that black people aren't included in... a lot of movies are out that other minorities aren't included in... Asians don't have to be in every single film made... white people don't have to be in every single film made either, for that matter. But just because we're not in every movie doesn't mean we're not treated equally. I suppose it depends on the roles? I'd definately rather see one Asian person portrayed in a positive light, than three movies with tons of Asians playing... weird out-there type roles.

... it WOULD be special treatment if they MADE SURE to include Asians in their films... as opposed to... treated all the actors that auditioned for parts as equals... just because the Asian doesn't win doesn't mean he/she wasn't treated equally.
do you consider a TV show about a hospital in San Francisco that was written with no Asian people in the main cast to be equal treatment? i certainly don't. it's not just about the audition.
In general, though.

[Shuriken]

Originally posted by boycott@Aug 28 2002, 11:54 AM
You've never imagined how it would be like to have a high budget Hollywood movie starring an all Asian American cast? not that it would be possible any time soon or within our lifetime.
This is just a bit of trivia and not an effort to contradict Boycott: A big-budget Hollywood feature with an all-Asian American cast might not happen in everyone else's lifetime, but speaking as the old geezer on this forum, it did happen in my lifetime.

In 1961, Universal made the big-budget feature film, Flower Drum Song, a movie adaptation of Richard Rodgers & Oscar Hammerstein's Broadway musical (which, in turn, was adapted from the novel by C.Y. Lee). Available on video, the movie is a musical comedy starring Nancy Kwan, James Shigeta, Miyoshi Umeki, and Jack Soo. All of the major roles are played by Asian actors except one: the character of Madame Liang (Shigeta's aunt), who is played by African American actress Juanita Hall. However, the role was originally cast with Anna May Wong, who died before filming began. Since she played Madame Liang on Broadway, Hall might have been a last-minute replacement.

Looking at it today, Flower Drum Song seems dated, and its portrayal of the Asian American community has been embraced in some quarters and criticized in others. It stands as more of a quaint curio than a model for contemporary Asian American filmmaking.

However, the stage version of Flower Drum Song has now been completely revamped by David Henry Hwang, who rewrote the book to reflect greater community consciousness. After premiering in Los Angeles, Hwang's Flower Drum Song will open on Broadway in September. For more about the musical, see:

http://www.flowerdrumsong.com

If Hwang's version of the musical is a success — who knows? — it might open up a few more doors.

[Faithless]

Originally posted by Arex@Aug 28 2002, 12:30 AM
The problem is, even though it's supposedly "just entertainment," television and movies can have a real impact on how people perceive the world we live in. Example, do you think the antiquated stereotype in America of all Asians being martial arts masters would have come about if Bruce Lee movies were never widely released here? Ever so slowly, that stereotype is fading because we're starting to see Asian actors in other types of roles.
But whose fault is it if some dumb hick believes what he sees of Asians in the movies, etc., without realizing that all Asians aint like Brucie-baby?

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by ChottoMatte@Jul 1 2003, 02:01 AM
But whose fault is it if some dumb hick believes what he sees of Asians in the movies, etc., without realizing that all Asians aint like Brucie-baby?
It's the fault of the dumb hick and his friends. How is pinning the blame for racism on a Hollywood movie any different than some lady claiming she stabbed three people to death cuz she thought she was trapped in the Matrix?

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by AliBabaIncorporated@Jul 1 2003, 11:56 PM
It's the fault of the dumb hick and his friends. How is pinning the blame for racism on a Hollywood movie any different than some lady claiming she stabbed three people to death cuz she thought she was trapped in the Matrix?
I agree wholeheartedly.

[BeTheReds]

Originally posted by Shuriken@Sep 1 2002, 04:29 AM
and its portrayal of the Asian American community...
You mean the San Francisco Chinatown community?

I saw that movie. Don't try to tell me that those people are reprezenting who I am.

[Erendani]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 29 2002, 11:59 PM
I'd definately rather see one Asian person portrayed in a positive light, than three movies with tons of Asians playing... weird out-there type roles.

Angel you hit the nail on the head. That's exactly the issue right now.

I will stop complaining about Hollywood when the Asian weird out-there roles are somewhat more balanced with positive Asian portrayals.

For every dumb hick Chris Farley type role you have a Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt hero role. I can't count the number of stereotyped Kung Fu or geeky Asian roles you have for every positive Asian role.

Because Hollywood is so rife with weird type roles for Asians, the American public as a whole has a skewed perception of Asian Americans. And that affects my everyday reality.

For example, last week on the freeway, a white guy leans out the window at me and starts making kung fu noises. I don't know any kung fu. But why did he think I did?

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by Erendani@Jul 3 2003, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 29 2002, 11:59 PM
I'd definately rather see one Asian person portrayed in a positive light, than three movies with tons of Asians playing... weird out-there type roles.

Angel you hit the nail on the head. That's exactly the issue right now.

I will stop complaining about Hollywood when the Asian weird out-there roles are somewhat more balanced with positive Asian portrayals.

For every dumb hick Chris Farley type role you have a Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt hero role. I can't count the number of stereotyped Kung Fu or geeky Asian roles you have for every positive Asian role.

Because Hollywood is so rife with weird type roles for Asians, the American public as a whole has a skewed perception of Asian Americans. And that affects my everyday reality.

For example, last week on the freeway, a white guy leans out the window at me and starts making kung fu noises. I don't know any kung fu. But why did he think I did?
The difference between you and me, though, is that I blame that guy on the freeway for what he did... not Hollywood.

[Deadpool]

I blame both.

[Erendani]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Jul 3 2003, 01:29 AM
The difference between you and me, though, is that I blame that guy on the freeway for what he did... not Hollywood.
I believe very the media has a huge influence on people and what they think, affecting everything from the facts we know, to the shoes we wear.

When Hollywood misrepresents Asians, I truly believe they are influencing millions of peoples' attitudes about Asian people. So I think they deserve some blame. The freeway dude probably never had any REAL interactions with Asians in his life, so he is just going on the limited (and inaccurate) data that he has. This is besides the fact that the dude was just a prick in general.

Ok, here's another trivial example... a theory of mine: the more Asian faces shown on screen speaking perfect English, the less I will be told by a wondering white person "Wow you speak really good English!" Right now I believe the average white person believes that Asians in America don't speak English very well. Hollywood can easily correct this by more accurately portraying Asian Americans on screen.

[kasia]

Originally posted by Deadpool@Jul 2 2003, 05:46 PM
I blame both.
i don't blame either. i don't believe in free will.

but i do think that it is a sad state of affairs.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by Erendani@Jul 3 2003, 08:48 AM
Right now I believe the average white person believes that Asians in America don't speak English very well. Hollywood can easily correct this by more accurately portraying Asian Americans on screen.
I doubt that the *Average white person* believes that. I also think that, of those who DO believe that, Hollywood would ever be able to do anything to change their minds. Most small minded people like that will always believe what they do, no matter what evidence there is to prove them wrong.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

Originally posted by Erendani@Jul 3 2003, 03:48 AM
Ok, here's another trivial example... a theory of mine: the more Asian faces shown on screen speaking perfect English, the less I will be told by a wondering white person "Wow you speak really good English!"&nbsp; Right now I believe the average white person believes that Asians in America don't speak English very well.
No, the smaller proportion of overseas-born persons we have in our population who actually do speak accented English, the less people are going to find it unusual to meet an Asian speaking unaccented English. Out of Asians in the US, almost 75% were born overseas.

Also there's a Canadian guy who used to be on TV in mainland China who speaks perfect, unaccented Mandarin. White friends in Beijing report this still hasn't changed the basic situation of local dumbasses running down the street shouting "Halllooo! Halllooo!" after them ...

[BeTheReds]

Word.

I am complemented on my flawless Japanese accent and marvelled at my ability to use chopsticks despite there being guys like David Specter, and Ramos, and Alessandro Santos, and gosh, tons of other foreigners on TV who speak FLAWLESS Japanese and use chopsticks just fine.

In fact I'd say a MAJORITY of the non-Asian representation on Japanese TV speaks perfect or near perfect Japanese (with a few exceptions of course).

Why are people amazed at my ability to live here and interact with people on more than a survival level? Because 90% of the other visibly foreign people do not speak Japanese thus don't have much interaction with Japanese people and have trouble communicating at even the most basic of situations, not because the media shows Bob Sapp acting like a moron shoving whole Unagi in his mouth with his bare hands on TV.

In the USA with 75% of Asians having been born overseas when English is not their native toungue, people's interactions with them happen to be those which would suggest that the majority of Asians don't speak English well.

I would suggest that you try working at any fast food restaurant, retail store in the mall, or similar part time job to see the point. I did do all these things, and a lot of Asians in my area who visited McDonalds and my mall actually DIDN'T speak English. And as we all know, you don't remember most customers who come up, buy their shit, and leave, you remember the annoying ones who come up and treat you like crap and make a fuss (usually white people), and ones which are difficult to communicate with (usually Asians and Hispanics, and the occasional european tourist.)

However, intelligent people learn to seperate these images lingering in your head and not be surprised when someone deviates from them. Thus, I do not think all white people are annoying pricks who treat store employees like crap because they sold the last beanie baby to someone who isn't even a "real" collector, and I am not surprised to see Hispanics who can speak English. In fact it surprises me when I see someone who has been living in the USA for more than 5 years who CAN'T speak a word of English, with the exception of the elderly of course.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Jul 3 2003, 05:27 PM
Most small minded people like that will always believe what they do, no matter what evidence there is to prove them wrong.
I think you're vastly underestimating the power of televsion and film as a medium for nudging consciousness. Sure, I doubt the media ever somehow implant thoughts that were never there to begin with, but it's how they reinforce other ones repeatedly, over and over, that we should be concerned about.

Why are political ads on television so incredibly effective? Take a brief glance at television ads over the last twenty years and you'd walk away very depressed -- messages that marginalize complex issues into 15 second sound bites, over and over. You begin to ask yourself, "What moron(s) would buy into such nonsense?"

The American people, that's who.

[Deadpool]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jul 7 2003, 03:49 PM
I think you're vastly underestimating the power of televsion and film as a medium for nudging consciousness.
Very true. That medium is a very popular method for psyops in the military.
And at the end of the day I'm not worried about the the once who can dicern from right and wrong, I'm worried about all the dumbasses who can't.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 6 2003, 08:52 PM
However, intelligent people learn to seperate these images lingering in your head and not be surprised when someone deviates from them.
Ahh, there's that word again...intelligent. This being the same country that still believes Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, somewhere...anywhere!

BTW -- by that same logic you use to justify the possible bewilderment of whites when they encounter Asians who speak flawless English, I suppose it's also equally justified to be shocked when you encounter a young black man who isn't a criminal or rapper; or a young Latina who isn't pregnant or a mother -- perhaps even young white males who aren't racist...!

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Jul 3 2003, 04:27 PM
Most small minded people like that will always believe what they do, no matter what evidence there is to prove them wrong.
But don't you see? Most of the world *is* made up of small minds. :D

That's why it's so easy to stir people up with emotional addresses. Well crafted words and speeches, if orchestrated properly, have the power to draw in the masses. An extraordinarily large percentage of history's demagogues and strongmen/women implicitly understood the workings of the human mind and were able to twist things in their favour with highly charged rhetoric. With movies and television it's no different; You have the Shepherds and you have the Sheep. It's ultimately up to you to decide which camp you belong to.

[deez nuts]

mike:

you talk a good talk and you talk the talk. but, do you walk the walk?

what's your cirriculum vitae like?

i'm just curious. it's up to you if you wanna answer. if it's too personal, it's cool if you don't wanna divulge personal information. i'd understand.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Jul 7 2003, 05:12 PM
what's your cirriculum vitae like?

I'm from the short yellow bus:)

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Jul 7 2003, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Jul 7 2003, 05:12 PM
what's your cirriculum vitae like?

I'm from the short yellow bus:)
me too.

i was just curious since emperor mike said:

You have the Shepherds and you have the Sheep. It's ultimately up to you to decide which camp you belong to.

i'll be more than happy to be a sheep in matters, that are foreign to me. the only time i'm a shepherd is mostly when i'm in the operating room and in the hospital. and every now and then, some basic everyday matters that i know well when i'm in a group.

i, personally, believe in the saying: "too many indian chiefs and too little indians" is a bad thing cuz it gets messy. sometimes, you just gotta listen and possibly follow (if you agree with them) those that know more about a certain subject than you. for example: you wouldn't let or want a radiologist do a endovascular stent graft aortic aneurysm repair on you or let a surgeon read a T2 fast spin echo scan with gadolinium contrast mri scan for you.

[Emperor_Mike]

i'll be more than happy to be a sheep in matters, that are foreign to me. the only time i'm a shepherd is mostly when i'm in the operating room and in the hospital. and every now and then, some basic everyday matters that i know well when i'm in a group.

i, personally, believe in the saying: "too many indian chiefs and too little indians" is a bad thing cuz it gets messy. sometimes, you just gotta listen and possibly follow (if you agree with them) those that know more about a certain subject than you. for example: you wouldn't let or want a radiologist do a endovascular stent graft aortic aneurysm repair on you or let a surgeon read a T2 fast spin echo scan with gadolinium contrast mri scan for you.


Ah! I was about to start a new post but then I remember I did two. :D

Right then, perhaps I should've been a bit clearer. The Sheep/Shepherd statement was actually more geared toward the social and political arena actually. In practical matters like those pertaining to careers, it'd be better to learn from someone rather than to venture off on your own! :D I know I wouldn't want to tackle a major criminal case by myself on my first day on the job. :lol:

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Jul 7 2003, 04:12 PM
mike:

you talk a good talk and you talk the talk.&nbsp; but, do you walk the walk?

what's your cirriculum vitae like?

i'm just curious.&nbsp; it's up to you if you wanna answer. if it's too personal, it's cool if you don't wanna divulge personal information.&nbsp; i'd understand.
What I'd rather not do is blow my own horn...

...too much. :D

Well, I'm a working member or have been a member of the following organisations and groups. The ones in bold I'm still involved in and the ones in italics are the groups I've gotten back into while I'm in Canada for the summer:


1) Amnesty International BC/UK Branch, the BC Cancer Society

2) The Young Liberals of Canada (though far from Liberal.) I was indirectly involved in the re-election campaign of our local Liberal Candidate and wrote/proof read press releases and other related election literature.

3) S.U.C.C.E.S.S. which is a Chinese community organisation of sort geared toward Chinese business and immigrant interests including several small Asian/Non-Asian rotary clubs in Vancouver and my home city of Richmond.

4) Secret campaign helper for the Richmond Canadian Voters (another local Chinese political party.) Acted in same capacity as above for my "Official" party. RCV was clandestine. :D

5) Sit-in member of the Richmond Chamber of Commerce

6) Sit-in City Council member (but then again, most people can attend if they'd like but many don't care.)

7) The BC Youth Parliament

8) The World Federalists of Canada - Vancouver Branch

9) Erstwhile volunteer at the Vancouver Aboriginal Friendship Centre

10) Member of the Youth Service Alliance of British Columbia

11) Contributer to the Sierra Legal Defence Fund (environmental thing.)

12) Fundraising/Donating for/to the Osteoporosis Society of British Columbia

13) 411 Seniors' Centre Society

14) Contributor and volunteer at the Chinese Benevolent Association of Vancouver

15) Contributor to The Chinese Canadian National Council (in an advisory capacity)

16) Assistant Director of The Oaks Community Watch. The OCW ties in with the Richmond Canadian Voters. The RCV is the "political arm" of the OCW. Sounds so very spy-ish. :D


I'm still active in certain societies, but I've dropped a few in the interests of time (and school.) Don't worry, I'm not one to give opinions and thoughts without having done something that's comparable or exceeds the subject matter.

[ChinaLama]

Mike, let's see a newspaper article with your name in it and then we'll get off your case. B) or do you operate in the shadows. :D

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Jul 7 2003, 05:36 PM
Mike, let's see a newspaper article with your name in it and then we'll get off your case.&nbsp; B) or do you operate in the shadows. :D
Sadly, no one interviews volunteers for their efforts. :D I may be involved in many things, but it doesn't necessarily make me the big fish in the pond.

Yet. :D

Well, in all honesty, I don't do it for the limelight. We already have enough people hogging the press and the media in general. I do it because I believe in it and in preparation for the future when those damned journalists will try to dig things up. Haha!

[ChinaLama]

Good man and good strategist. you've got the heart... of a champion. now all you need to be an emperor is a harem of women.

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@Jul 7 2003, 05:57 PM
Good man and good strategist. you've got the heart... of a champion. now all you need to be an emperor is a harem of women.
Don't forget an army and the fancy plastic crown with paste jewels.

Perhaps I should put up adverts on YW for Harem Women. :D

[deez nuts]

nice cv.

good job.

[Emperor_Mike]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@Jul 7 2003, 06:20 PM
nice cv.

good job.
Thank you, Doctor Savoury Roast Pork Bun!

[Cipherous]

Originally posted by kasia@Aug 28 2002, 12:39 PM
Who thought we were going to be poor? 1/3 of all Asians earn $75K?!? What statistic is this?
demographics.com.... it was in an article. i didnt mean to say anybody thought we'd be poor, but its not often that an entire minority group can be so successful.[/QUOTE]
they measure it by household and conveniently leave out the fact that most asian households have, on the average, 7-10 people, while white household have 3-5. [/quote]


If I remember correctly from Asian American studies class, the average Asian family have like 2.4 sources of income whereas Whites are like 1.7.

[BeTheReds]

Yea, if you talking in terms of household income, and lots of immigrants live in large numbers in one house, it only takes 3 dudes making 30K to have a 90K household income.

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by BeTheReds@Jul 8 2003, 04:07 AM
Yea, if you talking in terms of household income, and lots of immigrants live in large numbers in one house, it only takes 3 dudes making 30K to have a 90K household income.
So when people say well.. asians have really high income levels... and then people counter with... but asians have tons of ppl living in their houses.... i can't help but think that the number of wage earners in the household isn't a whole lot different than any other family. i mean, generally speaking, most non-asian households have.... 2 main wage earners? isn't that the same with asian families, even if there are grandparents and whatnot living in the house? generally speaking, most people i know who have other people outside of their nuclear family living in their house have them there because they're either a) too old to live alone or B) can't afford to live alone because they don't have jobs.

i mean... the additional people who live in the house usually are, like, grandparents or really fobby aunts and uncles right? don't most of these people just sorta do their own things every day instead of going out and contributing to the household income?

[BigLew]

What about the actors or actresses themselves? Do they fight for roles that are non stereotypical? If casting directors have no Asians that try for certain parts then where is the blame?

[achtungbaby]

<!--QuoteBegin-BigLew+Jul 12 2003, 12:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (BigLew @ Jul 12 2003, 12:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What about the actors or actresses themselves? Do they fight for roles that are non stereotypical? If casting directors have no Asians that try for certain parts then where is the blame? [/b][/quote]
Good question. Many of you have heard of the expression, "Don't hate the player, hate the game." A similar logic seems to have an undercurrent in the Asian actor quagmire these days, "Don't hate the actor, hate the industry in which he's forced to prostrate himself before to get a meal."

Don't get me wrong, Asian actors are dealt with shitty hands (albeit ones that are improving slightly, I think) and I don't go out of my way to necessarily label one actor a sell-out or pretend to know enough about another to say he's "keepin' it real."

I do know that whatever our chosen trade, I think we're all given the opportunity to act as nobly as we can.

[Danny]

Great points on both fronts... I cannot argue with a lot of them and agree with most of what has been written...

My only issue with the media in regards to representation of AA is if they are going to hold a show in a specific city, (Presidio, Streets of San Francisco) that has a large AA community, there should be some kind of representation in the show to 'show' the ethnic breakdown within the city they are trying to portray the show being in.

In due time, maybe not until the AA community actually bands together as opposed to being the Korean American Community and the Tagalog Club and the like, when we are actually a huge voting block that can affect change within a given state, will the media really recognize that our voice is strong.

[BigLew]

Yes, Asian American actors are dealt a crappy hand, at the same time so are all minority actors and actresses some more than others. What I wonder about is: do any Asian American actors even realize that they are doing something that others consider negetive in portraying Asian Americans or Asians in general?

For example Rick Yune was chastized for his roles in the recent Bond flick and Fast and Furious. I don't even think it occured to that guy that he was gonna piss off any groups of AA's. The thing is people always talk about boycott this movie or boycott that movie targeting producers and labels. In my opinion the campaign should be based on information and enlightenment, you can't make an issue about something that doesn't even occur to the bulk of the population.

[Shuriken]

Okay, here's a story for the "it's only make-believe" crowd. It is agreed among historians that one of the most influential works in the 19th century to spur the anti-slavery movement, and thus the Civil War, was Harriet Beecher Stowe's novel Uncle Tom's Cabin, first serialized in a magazine in 1851. This fictional account of the hardships of slaves who never really existed stirred the passions of many and confirmed that slavery was an inhumane institution. In fact, it has been said that when Stowe was introduced to President Lincoln in 1862, after the Civil War began, he said to her: "So you are the little woman who wrote the book that started this great war!"

Uncle Tom? He never existed! Simon Lagree? A figment of an author's imagination! But would anyone say that these make-believe people did not have an impact on real life?

Conversely, it has often been said that D.W. Griffith's horrific, anti-black, pro-Ku Klux Klan movie, The Birth of a Nation (1915) — which, ironically, did more than any other individual movie to define the feature film as we know it — incited many lynchings when it was released. However, since exact figures for lynchings have never been compiled, it's unlikely that this anecdote can be confirmed. But if it is true, the fictional characters in Birth of a Nation definately had a negative impact beyond the world of make-believe.