Convention panel debates appropriateness of jokes

[achtungbaby]

08/09/2002

By MANUEL MENDOZA / The Dallas Morning News

Keiko Agena says she has no idea why she laughs at some jokes about Asians but not others.

The Japanese-American actress, a star of The WB television series Gilmore Girls, wonders whether it's bad, for instance, that she likes the character Miss Swan, played by her non-Asian friend Alex Borstein on the Fox sketch-comedy show Mad TV.

She floats one possibility: Is it that she finds Miss Swan, a loudmouthed manicurist who speaks English poorly, specific enough to overcome the stereotype?

Ms. Agena's comments came during a panel Thursday at the Fairmont Hotel, where the Asian American Journalists Association is holding its annual meeting this week. "Can Race Ever Be a Laughing Matter?" also included comedian Henry Cho, actor John Cho (no relation) and activist Guy Aoki, among others.

Mr. Aoki, who has led protests against Miss Swan and other such characters, disagreed with Ms. Agena's assessment, saying white performers would never get away with doing the same shtick with a black character. But Neal Justin, TV critic at the Minneapolis Star-Tribune and the panel's moderator, pointed out that in fact it happened when Billy Crystal imitated Sammy Davis Jr. on Saturday Night Live.

The difference, Mr. Aoki answered, was that at the time of Miss Swan's 1990s debut on Mad TV, she was the only Asian character on an y Fox show. "We're like 30 years behind," he said. "And the Miss Swan thing just sets us back."

Shortly thereafter, the panel veered off its scheduled topic and dedicated the rest of its two hours to the issue that always seems to dominate discussion of minorities and the media: the lack of ethnic diversity on TV.

Earlier Thursday, the AAJA released a study that found a dearth of Asian male TV-news reporters and anchors in the country's top 25 television markets. In addition, only 2 percent of the roles on prime-time TV are played by Asians.

There was equal disagreement here as well. Who is responsible? How can the doors of the TV networks and the movie studios be broken down? Are Asians obligated to refuse stereotypical roles and only play role models?

Originally, the lightning rod for the race-and-humor panel was a joke told by comedian Sarah Silverman on Conan O'Brien's late-night talk show. Ms. Silverman – who Henry Cho described as "the funniest female under 30 on Earth" – said she had told a friend that she wanted to get out of jury duty. The friend suggested she write something inappropriate on the jury form, such as "I hate chinks." But, Ms. Silverman said, she didn't want to seem racist. So instead she wrote, "I love chinks."

Mr. Aoki, who writes scripts for Dick Clark's radio countdown show and also heads the Media Action Network for Asian Americans, argued Thursday that the appropriateness of such a joke depends on who's telling it.

But Henry Cho – who grew up as the only Asian in his Knoxville, Tenn., neighborhood and still retains a hint of a Southern accent – defended Ms. Silverman. "As a comic, it's hilarious," he said. "That's a well-written joke."

Amy Leang, a photographer who has been in the news for objecting to a sketch performed by a comedy troupe at a recent newspaper editors convention, said context is key. Asians may feel comfortable laughing at Asian jokes in an all-Asian audience but not one that includes non-Asians.

E-mail mmendoza@dallasnews.com

[angel nympho]

I think a lot of Asian jokes are funny. It also entertains me when white people see the same thing I'm watching, and check to make sure that I'm laughing before they do. I see why they're offensive to some people, but I can't help the fact that I'm not offended. Nor can I explain why I'm not. It just doesn't bother me. The fact that there's a white lady doing an imitation of an Asian lady on TV doesn't make my boss want to fire me. It doesn't make Asians less hire-able in any industry. I don't see it as a problem.

But there are occasionally times when I do find something offensive. It's not like I think these things are gonna directly do anything to hinder my way of life... it's just that sometimes I wonder who came up with shit like that. Not to sound stupid or anything, but there are certain things that you just can't say unless you're Asian.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 10 2002, 10:08 PM
I think a lot of Asian jokes are funny. It also entertains me when white people see the same thing I'm watching, and check to make sure that I'm laughing before they do. I see why they're offensive to some people, but I can't help the fact that I'm not offended. Nor can I explain why I'm not. It just doesn't bother me. The fact that there's a white lady doing an imitation of an Asian lady on TV doesn't make my boss want to fire me. It doesn't make Asians less hire-able in any industry. I don't see it as a problem.

But there are occasionally times when I do find something offensive. It's not like I think these things are gonna directly do anything to hinder my way of life... it's just that sometimes I wonder who came up with shit like that. Not to sound stupid or anything, but there are certain things that you just can't say unless you're Asian.
It's about how the media is affecting the way people view Asian Americans. If you're in San Francisco, fine, nobody is going to think that you can do karate by virtue of being Asian. But believe it or not, in junior high I was the only Asian kid around and the new friends I made asked me if I could do kungfu. Ok, maybe kids were just being stupid, but then grown adults asked me how it is that my English is so good. I don't really mind that because they just don't see any Asian people around, but come on, Asian Americans are not foreigners. Bad media image is just going to continue to portray us in ridiculous ways to people who don't know better. And are you so sure that it doesn't make Asians less hire-able in any industry? I am inclined to think that in industries where appearance and personal interactions with clients are constantly factors that can affect your performance, bad media image of Asians can affect job prospects of Asian Americans.



<!--EDIT|SunWuKung|Aug 10 2002, 10:27 PM-->

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Aug 11 2002, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 10 2002, 10:08 PM
I think a lot of Asian jokes are funny. It also entertains me when white people see the same thing I'm watching, and check to make sure that I'm laughing before they do. I see why they're offensive to some people, but I can't help the fact that I'm not offended. Nor can I explain why I'm not. It just doesn't bother me. The fact that there's a white lady doing an imitation of an Asian lady on TV doesn't make my boss want to fire me. It doesn't make Asians less hire-able in any industry. I don't see it as a problem.

But there are occasionally times when I do find something offensive. It's not like I think these things are gonna directly do anything to hinder my way of life... it's just that sometimes I wonder who came up with shit like that. Not to sound stupid or anything, but there are certain things that you just can't say unless you're Asian.
It's about how the media is affecting the way people view Asian Americans. If you're in San Francisco, fine, nobody is going to think that you can do karate by virtue of being Asian. But believe it or not, in junior high I was the only Asian kid around and the new friends I made asked me if I could do kungfu. Ok, maybe kids were just being stupid, but then grown adults asked me how it is that my English is so good. I don't really mind that because they just don't see any Asian people around, but come on, Asian Americans are not foreigners. Bad media image is just going to continue to portray us in ridiculous ways to people who don't know better. And are you so sure that it doesn't make Asians less hire-able in any industry? I am inclined to think that in industries where appearance and personal interactions with clients are constantly factors that can affect your performance, bad media image of Asians can affect job prospects of Asian Americans.
No matter how Asians are portrayed in the media, people in areas where there isn't much exposure to other races, will ALWAYS hold strange stereotypes towards others. But holding stereotypes doesn't mean that people aren't open minded. I actually have a lot of friends who confided in me that until they were in high school, they thought Asians all had these crazy black belts in weird martial arts. Nonetheless, they were fascinated by Asian culture and were willing to treat Asians as equals. Just because they held a few stereotypes (which eventually they learned were untrue) doesn't mean they wanted to treat Asians any different. I get asked a lot of times weird things about my culture, but I don't get all butthurt about it... I just correct whatever weird beliefs other people might have, and if they say something that offends me, a dirty look is usually enough to shut them up. Just because there's a few images of Asian people in the media where they aren't portrayed as 100% perfect (which they are most definately NOT) doesn't make the entire society look down on us. Just because there's some creepy rednecks portrayed on television, do you look down on white people?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 11 2002, 04:58 AM
No matter how Asians are portrayed in the media, people in areas where there isn't much exposure to other races, will ALWAYS hold strange stereotypes towards others. But holding stereotypes doesn't mean that people aren't open minded. I actually have a lot of friends who confided in me that until they were in high school, they thought Asians all had these crazy black belts in weird martial arts. Nonetheless, they were fascinated by Asian culture and were willing to treat Asians as equals. Just because they held a few stereotypes (which eventually they learned were untrue) doesn't mean they wanted to treat Asians any different. I get asked a lot of times weird things about my culture, but I don't get all butthurt about it... I just correct whatever weird beliefs other people might have, and if they say something that offends me, a dirty look is usually enough to shut them up. Just because there's a few images of Asian people in the media where they aren't portrayed as 100% perfect (which they are most definately NOT) doesn't make the entire society look down on us. Just because there's some creepy rednecks portrayed on television, do you look down on white people?
Actually I think that more positive media portrayal of Asian Americans can lessen the amount of strange stereotypes that people have of us. I know that most people don't actually look down on us because of these stereotypes, and I'm not insulted by most of the misunderstandings, but I would still like to see these stereotypes go away and have people accept us as normal Americans instead of foreigners in this country. More positive media portrayal can help with this.

The difference between rednecks in the media and stereotypical Asians in the media is that stereotypical Asians are almost the only Asian characters you see in the media. On the other hand, most white characters are not stereotypical characters like rednecks. Nobody is going to look down on white people because for one redneck on TV, there're also 20 to 30 normal white people on TV.

[artsfartsyjanet]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Aug 11 2002, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 11 2002, 04:58 AM
No matter how Asians are portrayed in the media, people in areas where there isn't much exposure to other races, will ALWAYS hold strange stereotypes towards others. &nbsp;But holding stereotypes doesn't mean that people aren't open minded. &nbsp;I actually have a lot of friends who confided in me that until they were in high school, they thought Asians all had these crazy black belts in weird martial arts. &nbsp;Nonetheless, they were fascinated by Asian culture and were willing to treat Asians as equals. &nbsp;Just because they held a few stereotypes (which eventually they learned were untrue) doesn't mean they wanted to treat Asians any different. &nbsp;I get asked a lot of times weird things about my culture, but I don't get all butthurt about it... I just correct whatever weird beliefs other people might have, and if they say something that offends me, a dirty look is usually enough to shut them up. &nbsp;Just because there's a few images of Asian people in the media where they aren't portrayed as 100% perfect (which they are most definately NOT) doesn't make the entire society look down on us. &nbsp;Just because there's some creepy rednecks portrayed on television, do you look down on white people?
Actually I think that more positive media portrayal of Asian Americans can lessen the amount of strange stereotypes that people have of us. I know that most people don't actually look down on us because of these stereotypes, and I'm not insulted by most of the misunderstandings, but I would still like to see these stereotypes go away and have people accept us as normal Americans instead of foreigners in this country. More positive media portrayal can help with this.

The difference between rednecks in the media and stereotypical Asians in the media is that stereotypical Asians are almost the only Asian characters you see in the media. On the other hand, most white characters are not stereotypical characters like rednecks. Nobody is going to look down on white people because for one redneck on TV, there're also 20 to 30 normal white people on TV.
I agree that something should be done to lessen stereotypes about Asian Americans in the media. I am actually doing research this summer with a social psychology professor on the impact the media has on Asian Americans and how these images are perceived by non-Asians. My study will examine how concepts of self-esteem among AAs is affected by negative portrayals of Asians in the media, how the media (as well as accounting for any other facets) perpetuate stereotypes among non-Asians, and how the level of ethnic identity plays a mediator between self-esteem and positive/negative stereotypes of Asians in the media (e.g. films or TV shows).

[Saiko]

I laugh at Asian cracks. I laugh at any race crack, but I'm strictly against racism. But a joke is a joke as long is it isn't taken too far or too seriously. Ms. Swan I like a lot. But the Queen of the Chinese on MadTV wasn't as appealling. I wasn't angered, but I wasn't laughing either.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Saiko@Aug 11 2002, 04:11 PM
I laugh at Asian cracks. I laugh at any race crack, but I'm strictly against racism. But a joke is a joke as long is it isn't taken too far or too seriously. Ms. Swan I like a lot. But the Queen of the Chinese on MadTV wasn't as appealling. I wasn't angered, but I wasn't laughing either.
actually i liked Ms Swan, too. because the character wasn't just about taking cheap shots at racial stereotypes. she was a crazy character that did things that are not exclusive to stereotypical Asian characters. and Alex Borstein said that the character is actually based on her grandmother.

[Saiko]

Her grandma must be one interesting character. o_O

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 10 2002, 08:08 PM
...but I can't help the fact that I'm not offended. &nbsp;Nor can I explain why I'm not. &nbsp;It just doesn't bother me.

What are you offended by?

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 10 2002, 08:08 PM
The fact that there's a white lady doing an imitation of an Asian lady on TV doesn't make my boss want to fire me. &nbsp;It doesn't make Asians less hire-able in any industry. &nbsp;I don't see it as a problem.

Who said that stereotypes and persistent negativity help perpetuate racism?

Not me.

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 10 2002, 08:08 PM
It's not like I think these things are gonna directly do anything to hinder my way of life... it's just that sometimes I wonder who came up with shit like that. &nbsp;Not to sound stupid or anything, but there are certain things that you just can't say unless you're Asian.

Well on an individual, personal basis, maybe for you, you're a little more thick-skinned towards insults. I'm the same way. But we have to get away from approaching these types of situations with the mindset first of, "How much shit can I endure?" and then when it becomes unbearable, we put our foot down. It's not about whining or complaining, I think. I just don't think we have to put up with it.

[thaite]

I missed that panel. I have to admit that I sometimes laugh. And at the convention I even offended somebody with a terrible joke for which I had to apologize. I felt really bad.

[achtungbaby]

I enjoy laughing at stupid stuff too (in fact...I think that's the only kind of stuff I laugh at...). We're not saying we have more of a high-minded sense of humor or something. I'm just tired of us having this mentality or perspective that's always on the defensive, where we're constantly having to justify what's offensive to us.

If it were a level playing field, then maybe.

[CrX3183]

There is always a time and place for everything including race-based jokes. Most of the time I really don't find them funny. Usually they can be pretty offensive. But if it's a close friend I can't help but laugh. Margret Cho is pretty funny though but, I get embarrassed because I don't think I should laugh as hard as I do. Especially since I know if it was not an Asian person telling the joke I would be pretty offended. One time I was at a bar and this non-Asian guy was trying to "pick me up" (or get my number) anyways he said have you ever heard the one about Bruse Lee going into Burger King...I said no...well, he goes in and can you guess what he orders... I said no...WAH PAH! and he did a karate chop to top it off! I was so offended! I just walked away. Later I told my friends and we all laughed! That guy was trying so hard and ended up really offended. A word of advise to everyone out there if you are going to tell a joke make you know that the person you are telling would find it funny too! SORRY! THIS IS Ch8Li179 NOT Crx3183 opps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



<!--EDIT|CrX3183|Aug 14 2002, 07:53 AM-->

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@Aug 11 2002, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 10 2002, 08:08 PM
...but I can't help the fact that I'm not offended. Nor can I explain why I'm not. It just doesn't bother me.

What are you offended by?

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 10 2002, 08:08 PM
The fact that there's a white lady doing an imitation of an Asian lady on TV doesn't make my boss want to fire me. It doesn't make Asians less hire-able in any industry. I don't see it as a problem.

Who said that stereotypes and persistent negativity help perpetuate racism?

Not me.

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 10 2002, 08:08 PM
It's not like I think these things are gonna directly do anything to hinder my way of life... it's just that sometimes I wonder who came up with shit like that. Not to sound stupid or anything, but there are certain things that you just can't say unless you're Asian.

Well on an individual, personal basis, maybe for you, you're a little more thick-skinned towards insults. I'm the same way. But we have to get away from approaching these types of situations with the mindset first of, "How much shit can I endure?" and then when it becomes unbearable, we put our foot down. It's not about whining or complaining, I think. I just don't think we have to put up with it.
It's not really that I'm thick skinned against insults. I'm actually really sensitive towards criticism... But only when it's something personal. Like something specifically about me. I'm not offended by Asian jokes because they're just jokes. They're not really classified as criticism... at least I don't interpret them to be.

Either way, I wouldn't say all Asians portrayed in the media are portrayed in a negative light... Sure there's a lot more normal white people on TV, but there's a hell of a lot more white people in America. There's a growing number of normal Asians in television and movies as well. And for that, at least, I'm pleased...

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 15 2002, 01:12 PM
I'm not offended by Asian jokes because they're just jokes. &nbsp;They're not really classified as criticism... at least I don't interpret them to be.

But doesn't there ever come a point when you say, "Hey, they're actually laughing at me..."? How long, for example, would you let your friend crack jokes about your father or mother? Sooner or later you might begin to wonder about how much of a "friend" that person was.

[angel nympho]

I don't associate myself with people who will laugh AT me instead of WITH me. And that's how I interpret things on TV... I'm laughing too, so it's not necessarily at my expense. Think of it this way... If somebody's on TV making fun of Americans in a joking manner that is meant to be taken lightly, do you get all hurt and upset? Even if it's a little insulting, you probably wouldn't be outraged about it.... But when somebody is picking on YOU in particular... it's totally different. It's one thing to joke about something, but it's another thing to belittle... And when it comes to that point, I'll stop laughing. I just don't think it has, yet.



<!--EDIT|angel nympho|Aug 15 2002, 09:55 PM-->

[achtungbaby]

Maybe we're just having different points of view on identity and idenfitication.

Although I grew up having mostly white friends, I still had a pretty large extended family of cousins, uncles, grandmothers, nieces, etc. We'd always be eating together, at restaurants in Ktown, someone's house, picnics. But because I was so white-washed, I was never too-crazy about them -- I was always one of the youngest who couldn't speak Korean that well and sounded like a white guy when he spoke. Then, towards the end of high school, I started hanging out with more Asians, getting to know more who weren't the same as me (since I probably always maintained I was so distinct), but who I had to admit were pretty similar. And right about that time, a few major events, like the LA Riots. I had never really thought too much about the Korean liquor store owners who only seemed interested in selling alcohol to Blacks (that's what I learned from Boys in the Hood), but like everyone else, I quickly saw their suffering. And because I had made more and more friends with Asians, specifically Koreans, they were just like me, they were friends whose parents worked very hard only to lose everything. These people, I guess, were like my cousins, uncles and aunts, mother and father.

I'm sure everyone's got a different story, but a lot of them are the same, in that somewhere down the line, we started thnking of Asians as our people. No, it's not a crime to laugh at a joke, but I think it would be a shame if you didn't feel anything towards your own people.

It's interesting that you point out making fun of America. White people definitely get offended when foreigners joke or ridicule this country. I guess you're right, we could try and tell people to separate their pride from their humor, although, interestingly, a lot of the comics and late night show hosts scrapped 9/11 from their jokes for a long time after it happened.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by angel nympho@Aug 15 2002, 04:53 PM
But when somebody is picking on YOU in particular... it's totally different. It's one thing to joke about something, but it's another thing to belittle... And when it comes to that point, I'll stop laughing. I just don't think it has, yet.
what if people are picking on people or things that you associate with? do you think it's funny if someone made "ching chong ching" sounds at another Asian as long as that Asian is not you?

[angel nympho]

There's a difference between what goes on in the media (with MADtv, etc) and having somebody come up to me and make their eyes all slanty and yell "CHING CHONG CHING." Don't you think? That's just immature and stupid. Asian jokes in the media are at least slightly more tasteful than that. And let me just remind you that most of the comedians on TV that make a lot of low blows to the Asian community are themselves Asian. You can't say NONE of the jokes are okay... It all depends on context. I think the whole Miss Swan thing is okay... but some random white person screaming "CHING CHONG CHING" is just retarded. Like I said before, there's a huge difference between joking about something and RIDICULING AND BELITTING something.

SunWuKung --> perhaps you misinterpreted. I meant to say that jokes about society as a whole usually have some kind of purpose. At least a little bit of truth behind them. Joking about American materialism shouldn't offend me personally as an American. I'd probably just nod my head sadly, knowing without fully admitting that it's true. I didn't mean making fun of one person is okay while making fun of ME is not. I meant SOCIETY VS INDIVIDUAL.

And achtungbaby... Nobody should joke about 9/11. It's one of those things that you can't laugh about until at least years and YEARS later... if ever. Perhaps I don't fully indentify myself the way you do with Asian people. I identify myself as an American above all else. An Asian-American, for that matter. And thinking a certain MADtv skit is okay to laugh at shouldnt mean that I feel nothing for "our people."

[SunWuKong]

actually i am not offended by the Miss Swan skids on MadTV. but i guess i am still a little confused about what you consider humor that is making fun of society as opposed to humor that is making fun of individuals. if a joke is directed toward a generic asian person and it's poking fun of something that has to do with asian culture, is that a joke directed at an individual or society?

[angel nympho]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Aug 17 2002, 12:05 AM
actually i am not offended by the Miss Swan skids on MadTV. &nbsp;but i guess i am still a little confused about what you consider humor that is making fun of society as opposed to humor that is making fun of individuals. &nbsp;if a joke is directed toward a generic asian person and it's poking fun of something that has to do with asian culture, is that a joke directed at an individual or society?
The comment I made didn't have much to do with Asians. It was a generalized statement regarding humor towards society. Particularly American society. I meant that when comedians make fun of the way Americans live, it's usually a social commentary type move. That's why I was confused that you chose that sentence to comment on. I wasn't saying anything really related to the topic. Like political cartoons, for instance. They're extremely derogatory towards the government, but they're meant as a social commentary. They serve a purpose. So what's the use of getting all insulted when it's just one person's way of bitching about society. We all have complaints about the nation we live in, don't we? But that really has nothing to do with anything that's up for discussion here.

^-- Don't read too far into what I just posted. All I was explaining was how when comedians make comments about the society they live in, it's their way of coping with the things that are typically on everybody's mind already. It had nothing to do with Asian jokes in the media.



<!--EDIT|angel nympho|Aug 17 2002, 06:43 AM-->