Born Like This or Chose to Be Like

[Chris]

Just taking a survery.

How many of you YW member think we GBLT member "chose" to be gay or we geninuely was born to like the same sex or you guys are unsure and please explain your answers.

[kitty]

I believe there is a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality, because studies haven't shown that childhood upbringing has much correlation with sexual orientation. Moreover, people still place far too many 'gender markers' on gayness (such as 'playing with barbie dolls' = 'gay male') -- and that you can't 'turn someone gay'.

was that... uhh... coherent?

[SunWuKong]

i don't know.
but more importantly to me is that people have a right to choose a gay lifestyle (as opposed to those that insist on being "in the closet") without being ostricised.

[Faithless]

I say GLBT-ism is pretty biological.

Now the choice to be a "flaming" or closetted one is another story. :rolleyes:

[Chris]

wow the polls are extermely diffrent on the other GBLT forum I mod. Most people in this case for mostly, Asians living in Asia and Asian Americans.

2 people so far said we chose to b e like this.
3 people said we were born like this. (me on this one)
5 people said I don't know
and 7 said it is a mix of both.

Wow the polls are extermely interesting so far.

What made some of you guys come to this conclusion? Thank you 3 for thoguhts. hehe I am going more into topics. And even bring so cross forum information over as well.

[experiment888]

scientists have found one part of the brain associted with same-sex attraction.

gay males have areas similar to females. gay females have areas similar to males. this is to do with the amount of oestrogen (estrogen and something else) present during development. however, this study was done in mice; not sure if this was carried to humans.

however, there is always a environmental factor since:
phenotype = gentic factor + environmental factor.

conclusion = strong gentic link

[Chris]

I was wondering something. Perhaps we do subconsciously choose which team we play on? This would not only mean that gay men and women "choose" to be gay; it would also mean that straight men and women make the same choice to be straight.

Don't get me wrong - I definitely do not think that everyone is born straight and that homosexuals choose to deviate from that. Rather, we all eventually make the choice within the far reaches of our psyche to be straight or gay. Maybe influences like gender roles play into this?

(btw i answered "i don't know")

I think at infancy we are neutral, and that a mixture of subconscious/unconscious thoughts and tendencies (less genetic, more innate) causes people to lean one way or another. I also agree with those who believe in the idea of a "sexual spectrum" and how we can have varying degrees of homo/heterosexuality in us. So hm... that actually sounds like "mixture of both."

This is one of the responses from the other forum. Your thoughts?

[John0101]

How about if we live in a society where same sex relations are not only tolerated but encouraged and viewed as normal then do you think there will be more same sex relationships? Excluded people the people that come out the closest but what if same sex relations.

Ok, i know that sounded a little confusing so here I go again. We are not born with culture, society drill things into our mind and we learn that boys like girls and girls like boys but what if society also tells us that boys can like boys and girls can like girls then will there be people who are straight right now be GBLT in that society?

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I'm wondering, how many gay/lesbian/bisexual people would be offended if this thread was started by someone who was straight?

[Chris]

I wouldn't be offended from my end. I think it is a great topic to be discuss.

[hooligan]

i don't know, but i think it might be a mixture of both. as to which half predominates, i think it depends.

if being lgbt is genetic, it's not going to be due to a single gene, but probably a bunch of genes, each with varying effects.

then again, i think we've been socialized only to love the opposite gender. it's totally possible to lvoe both men and women the same way that i would love a girl, but everything in our society says that we must NOT be gay/lesbian/whatever.

[Emperor_Mike]

I'm inclined to believe that it has a lot to with genetics.

[Faithless]

If I could interject a point of ignorance with the acronym "GBLT".

The T-part, transgender, is considered gay or lesbian?

[cmar]

Considering homosexuality exists in all countries, in all cultures, and has existed as far back as documentation allows....I think it has a natural genetic cause. As a gay man, I actually don't spend a lot of time thinking about this. It is so natural for me, and has been who I am for as long as I can recall. And I don't imagine straight guys spend much time wondering why they are straight (genetic or environmental). When something is so much a part of your being, you accept it without question.

[Faithless]

Considering homosexuality exists in all countries, in all cultures, and has existed as far back as documentation allows....I think it has a natural genetic cause. As a gay man, I actually don't spend a lot of time thinking about this. It is so natural for me, and has been who I am for as long as I can recall. And I don't imagine straight guys spend much time wondering why they are straight (genetic or environmental). When something is so much a part of your being, you accept it without question.
I can understand that.

But does the amount of BS negativity ever create questions in your mind about "what is it about me?"

[myself808]

But does the amount of BS negativity ever create questions in your mind about "what is it about me?" Yes it does. Being called deviant, amoral, and such, has caused myself to think just that, especially when you begin to come to the realization that you are gay. it's something that every GBLT person has to deal with, and the responses will run the gamut from evasion and denial to rabid in-your-face-to the-point-of-being-annoying-gayness.




btw: a transgender is just that, they are in a class by themselves. And if myself said anything different they would tear me a new one :biggrin:

[SunWuKong]

Considering homosexuality exists in all countries, in all cultures, and has existed as far back as documentation allows....I think it has a natural genetic cause. As a gay man, I actually don't spend a lot of time thinking about this. It is so natural for me, and has been who I am for as long as I can recall. And I don't imagine straight guys spend much time wondering why they are straight (genetic or environmental). When something is so much a part of your being, you accept it without question.

playing devil's advocate here...

just because homosexuality has a long history does not mean that it is genetic. and i question whether or not homosexuality historically existed in absolutely all cultures - the argument here being that if homosexuality is not genetic, a culture in isolation, if not introduced to the idea of homosexuality, may not develop homosexuality. and even if it did historically exist in all cultures, it would not be the only similarity that could be found in all or most cultures around the world, so it is possible that different cultures do develop similar practices.

another argument is that same-gender sexual interaction has been displayed in other primates. but i don't remember reading that those animals sexually interact with those of the same gender exclusively, and not also interact with those of the opposite gender. if we can find primates that exclusively interact sexually with those of the same gender instead of those of the opposite gender, i think that would be a stronger case.

[Faithless]

Yes it does. Being called deviant, amoral, and such, has caused myself to think just that, especially when you begin to come to the realization that you are gay. it's something that every GBLT person has to deal with, and the responses will run the gamut from evasion and denial to rabid in-your-face-to the-point-of-being-annoying-gayness.

btw: a transgender is just that, they are in a class by themselves. And if myself said anything different they would tear me a new one :biggrin:
YW is probably the only place where it's okay to talk to "myself". :rolleyes:

Self-doubt? Is self-doubt ever a response?

[Martino]

Just taking a survery.

How many of you YW member think we GBLT member "chose" to be gay or we geninuely was born to like the same sex or you guys are unsure and please explain your answers.

I really hate it when this question comes up. I've had this argument so many times ...

In my case, it was something I was most definatly born with, and, at least during my early teens, struggled with painfully. I didn't want to be gay, I had no gay peers, and for a while there did contemplate suicide.

Just by being in the closet, I knew the attitude of most of my friends and family. When I did come out, I lost a lot of friends.

I have read and know of people who have killed themselves because they were homosexual and couldn't with some of the issues or pressures that come with that.

So who would choose to be gay then do that to themselves?

[Martino]

the argument here being that if homosexuality is not genetic, a culture in isolation, if not introduced to the idea of homosexuality, may not develop homosexuality

Well, there's a slight flaw there in that you are expressing homosexuality as an idea rather than an instinct or a feeling.

I have a strong recollection of having no idea what was going on in my body during early school days when I became mesmorised by my classmates in the showers ...

On a cultural level, the concept of 'homosexuality' wouldn't exist, unless its population was large enough for it to become prevalent enough for, um, let's call it uncommon behaviour to become remarkable by the wider population. At that point, there could be some recognition of "queerness", you're-doing-it-wrong syndrome, attempts to correct the behaviour, and rejection of the individual when 'correction' fails.

Historically, in Arab culture, gays were untouchables, but in Ancient Greece it was a virtue; homosexual practice appear in heiroglyphics and in the karma sutra. Who knows, maybe there is even a cave painting out there somewhere ...

[SunWuKong]

before i sound like a huge homophobe, i want to repeat that my opinion is that i don't know if it's genetic or not, and i'm just discussing this for the sake of playing devil's advocate. personally, it doesn't matter to me whether gay people are born gay or not. i respect how they feel and the lifestyle they choose.


Well, there's a slight flaw there in that you are expressing homosexuality as an idea rather than an instinct or a feeling.

i referred to homosexuality as an idea simply for the sake of the argument because i was presenting a hypothetical situation where an isolated culture which had no history or instances of homosexuality learns about what homosexuality is by newly established contact with other cultures. sorry about the miscommunication.

I have a strong recollection of having no idea what was going on in my body during early school days when I became mesmorised by my classmates in the showers ...

well, just because something is an innate and inseparable part of you, doesn't necessarily mean that you were born with it. it simply just means that this something is an innate and inseparable part of you.

On a cultural level, the concept of 'homosexuality' wouldn't exist, unless its population was large enough for it to become prevalent enough for, um, let's call it uncommon behaviour to become remarkable by the wider population. At that point, there could be some recognition of "queerness", you're-doing-it-wrong syndrome, attempts to correct the behaviour, and rejection of the individual when 'correction' fails.

Historically, in Arab culture, gays were untouchables, but in Ancient Greece it was a virtue; homosexual practice appear in heiroglyphics and in the karma sutra. Who knows, maybe there is even a cave painting out there somewhere ...

homosexuality also historically existed in Chinese culture. but i haven't researched it to find out what the earliest records of it in Chinese society is. it was not "acceptable behaviour", but homosexuality was not persecuted like in some Western societies either. however, i believe there was/is persecution of homosexuality when the communists took over.

[Chris]

I really hate it when this question comes up. I've had this argument so many times ...

In my case, it was something I was most definatly born with, and, at least during my early teens, struggled with painfully. I didn't want to be gay, I had no gay peers, and for a while there did contemplate suicide.

Just by being in the closet, I knew the attitude of most of my friends and family. When I did come out, I lost a lot of friends.

I have read and know of people who have killed themselves because they were homosexual and couldn't with some of the issues or pressures that come with that.

So who would choose to be gay then do that to themselves?

Sorry to hear that Martino. But in my case. I have yet to lose one single friend and I am very bless that my friends saw me for who I am.

I only brought this topic up becaus the other forum I belong in were talkign about this and have since developed a very healthy discussion and dialogue. You might feel uncomfortable abotu this subject. But I am very comfortable talking abotu it.

[Martino]

Sorry to hear that Martino. But in my case. I have yet to lose one single friend and I am very bless that my friends saw me for who I am.

I only brought this topic up becaus the other forum I belong in were talkign about this and have since developed a very healthy discussion and dialogue. You might feel uncomfortable abotu this subject. But I am very comfortable talking abotu it.

No, it's just me being jaded. The first time I had this conversation must be about twenty years ago.

My parents were wonderful, which was a surprise. I got the I-knew-before-you-did from my Mum, and even my Dad is very welcoming when I take boyfriends over for Sunday dinner. Usually it's the BFs who freak out at the prospect of meeting them...

[frcegrl]

[QUOTE=SunWuKong]playing devil's advocate here...

just because homosexuality has a long history does not mean that it is genetic. and i question whether or not homosexuality historically existed in absolutely all cultures - the argument here being that if homosexuality is not genetic, a culture in isolation, if not introduced to the idea of homosexuality, may not develop homosexuality.


for myself...homosexuality was never "introduced" thru my family. Nor did it surround me when i FIRST realized that i was attracted to girls. so i would say that it is genetic. and again, if it were a choice...something we could "take off"...wouldn't we do it? rather than face all the hate in this world. no...we do not choose to be gay. we are...

[kitty]

so is there a general consensus that if you could 'take back' being gay... you would?

that's interesting... I dunno if I'd want to take back being asian... but maybe it can't really be related.

[SunWuKong]

playing devil's advocate here...

just because homosexuality has a long history does not mean that it is genetic. and i question whether or not homosexuality historically existed in absolutely all cultures - the argument here being that if homosexuality is not genetic, a culture in isolation, if not introduced to the idea of homosexuality, may not develop homosexuality.


for myself...homosexuality was never "introduced" thru my family. Nor did it surround me when i FIRST realized that i was attracted to girls. so i would say that it is genetic. and again, if it were a choice...something we could "take off"...wouldn't we do it? rather than face all the hate in this world. no...we do not choose to be gay. we are...

not to lighten your sexuality, but there are plenty of mental and/or emotional conditions that nobody choose to have and would rather not have, that people were not born with. assuming that people cannot be born gay, and that it is psychological, there can be a number of reasons why people cannot "take it off". maybe they feel like they cannot, and that they've convinced themselves that it's impossible.

and even if people are born homosexual, it may not be hereditary like some people think.

[Martino]

not to lighten your sexuality, but there are plenty of mental and/or emotional conditions that nobody choose to have and would rather not have, that people were not born with.

'Mental or emotional conditions' sort of carries the connotation that you're talking about an illness or mental instabilty ... something wrong with you. You might as well add physical conditions like malformed limbs or extra arms too ... an alternative would be to make support for young adults more accessable, so that they know that there isn't something wrong with them.

[Martino]

so is there a general consensus that if you could 'take back' being gay... you would?

No. What I'm saying is that I wasn't equipped to deal with all the mess and hate that other people generate ... a bit like the crap Asians would have to put up with in a racist environment, but I'd understand if you think the two don't compare. I certainly wanted to be accepted by everyone else, and stay part of the 'group' ... but take it back? ... might as well wish for a different face. It's "me". I don't want to be somebody else.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

'Mental or emotional conditions' sort of carries the connotation that you're talking about an illness or mental instabilty ... something wrong with you. You might as well add physical conditions like malformed limbs or extra arms too ... an alternative would be to make support for young adults more accessable, so that they know that there isn't something wrong with them.

Which is exactly why some non-straight people get offended by such a thread, specifically the ones who are adamant that they did not 'choose' to be gay and were just born with it. My opinion on this aside, these people (I can't really comment actually since I'm not gay) are convinced that they did not choose their sexuality and refuse to believe that they suffer from any type of deviation from the norm or like you said, any type of 'mental or emotional condition' connotating illness or something wrong.

But I get SWK's point, regarding how people can arguably suffer from mentional or emotional conditions and it will seem very real to them but they technically were not born with it. This holds somewhat true with psychological disorders, in that everything that the person feels and perceives is very real to them, they don't feel as if their mind is different from anybody else's, and they don't perceive themselves as irrational in any sense. It's not like looking at a wound in one's leg and saying 'oh yeah, I need medical help, obviously I'm hurt/there's something wrong'. Yet modern science tells them that they are sick, mentally, even though the extent to which such a disorder affects one's cognitive ability and lifestyle varies greatly of course.

[SunWuKong]

'Mental or emotional conditions' sort of carries the connotation that you're talking about an illness or mental instabilty ... something wrong with you. You might as well add physical conditions like malformed limbs or extra arms too ... an alternative would be to make support for young adults more accessable, so that they know that there isn't something wrong with them.

yeah, sorry. i knew i risked giving an impression that i'm equating homosexuality as an illness or mental instability. again, i'm only taking my side of the argument for the sake of playing devil's advocate. call me a science geek, if you will.

assuming first that homosexuality is not something that one is born with, and given the fact that there exists gay people that would choose to be straight if they felt that they had a choice in the matter, it would seem like it is a developed "mental or emotional condition" that people have no control over.

all that i'm saying is that just because you feel that its an innate part of you, and just because you have no choice in the matter, does not mean that homosexuality is something you were born with, or that you inherited.

again - i want to repeat that this is all secondary to the fact that i think that people deserve the same amount of respect irregardless of his/her sexual preference. personally, i think it doesn't matter so much whether or not someone is born homosexual. what matters more is that they are treated equally.

[Chris]

Which is exactly why some non-straight people get offended by such a thread, specifically the ones who are adamant that they did not 'choose' to be gay and were just born with it. My opinion on this aside, these people (I can't really comment actually since I'm not gay) are convinced that they did not choose their sexuality and refuse to believe that they suffer from any type of deviation from the norm or like you said, any type of 'mental or emotional condition' connotating illness or something wrong.

But I get SWK's point, regarding how people can arguably suffer from mentional or emotional conditions and it will seem very real to them but they technically were not born with it. This holds somewhat true with psychological disorders, in that everything that the person feels and perceives is very real to them, they don't feel as if their mind is different from anybody else's, and they don't perceive themselves as irrational in any sense. It's not like looking at a wound in one's leg and saying 'oh yeah, I need medical help, obviously I'm hurt/there's something wrong'. Yet modern science tells them that they are sick, mentally, even though the extent to which such a disorder affects one's cognitive ability and lifestyle varies greatly of course.

Yes that is certainly the case for a lot of us if a non straight person brought it up. But it is I that brought this topic to light and I can handle any stigmas or questions that come with it. I think it warrants a discussion here to enlighten people on this topic.

[Martino]

Yes that is certainly the case for a lot of us if a non straight person brought it up. But it is I that brought this topic to light and I can handle any stigmas or questions that come with it. I think it warrants a discussion here to enlighten people on this topic.

Well, discuss away!

[Martino]

all that i'm saying is that just because you feel that its an innate part of you, and just because you have no choice in the matter, does not mean that homosexuality is something you were born with, or that you inherited.


... and yet, by the same measure, science is not yet an exact science, to paraphrase Twelve Monkeys. What does science know of strange ephermeral things such as instinct, or the complex mechanisms broadly refered to as evolution? Scientists are still arguing about how sperm manage to locate the egg. They only figured out how sperm wriggle last year. That's 2003!

Who can say what perfectly natural mechanisms lay behind homosexuality? Some instinct to keep protective but sexually non-competive males near the females when alpha-males are out hunting? A means of population control? Perhaps a means for evolutionary process to dump redundant genes? Bottom line: no one knows. But we are not ill. We are not defects. We are not impaired in any way. We are not infererior OR superior. We're just different beyond choice or reason.

[Martino]

Yet modern science tells them that they are sick, mentally, even though the extent to which such a disorder affects one's cognitive ability and lifestyle varies greatly of course.

My fevered disorderly mind suddenly finds your avatar ... strangely attractive ... must resist ... must ... resist ...

[SunWuKong]

But we are not ill. We are not defects. We are not impaired in any way. We are not infererior OR superior. We're just different beyond choice or reason.

definitely, i agree with that 100%.

and i agree that science can't explain a lot of things yet. that's why i answered "i don't know" to this poll.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

definitely, i agree with that 100%.

and i agree that science can't explain a lot of things yet. that's why i answered "i don't know" to this poll.

Hmm...I'm kinda confused. If you agreed 100% then how come you still voted 'I don't know'?

[SunWuKong]

Hmm...I'm kinda confused. If you agreed 100% then how come you still voted 'I don't know'?


this is the statement i agree 100% with:

But we are not ill. We are not defects. We are not impaired in any way. We are not infererior OR superior. We're just different beyond choice or reason.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I think another possibility is that perhaps some were neither born with it nor made a conscious choice, and that it was an uncontrolled process (just suggesting shit out of my ass here) during one's childhood that as of yet remains unexplicable.

[kitty]

No. What I'm saying is that I wasn't equipped to deal with all the mess and hate that other people generate ... a bit like the crap Asians would have to put up with in a racist environment, but I'd understand if you think the two don't compare. I certainly wanted to be accepted by everyone else, and stay part of the 'group' ... but take it back? ... might as well wish for a different face. It's "me". I don't want to be somebody else.

yeah... that's more in line with what I believe... that's why I was trying to get a clarification...

[nola]

It doesn't matter if homosexuality is biological, personality or a choice, society needs to accept it. Like racism, society is the problem.

[myself808]

It doesn't matter if homosexuality is biological, personality or a choice, society needs to accept it. Like racism, society is the problem.While myself agrees that society is the problem, we have to work in the context of today's society, and it matters a great deal if its a choice or not. That's the entire argument over gay rights in a nutshell. If you choose to be gay, then you can then you can also choose not to be, thus you should not get any *special* rights, like those that society gives to protect a minority population for being who/what they are. IMO, society is slowly changing, tolerance and even acceptance is growing, but only because the argument that being gay is not a choice is also gaining acceptance. It wasn't until the 1970s that homosexuality was declassified as a psychiatric disorder, yet there are still many who still believe this.

[nola]

The argument of the gay movement has been that even if it's chosen, it should be accepted.

[myself808]

The argument of the gay movement has been that even if it's chosen, it should be accepted.myself has heard that one too, but that's not one that I use.

[frcegrl]

so is there a general consensus that if you could 'take back' being gay... you would?

that's interesting... I dunno if I'd want to take back being asian... but maybe it can't really be related.


no...i would not take anything back. i can't say my life would definitely be better if i was straight...given all the issues out there. would i trade one of my days to live the straight lifestyle (and not feel gay inside), yup...i would.

[frcegrl]

so do straight ppl choose to be straight? and maybe we're all gay...

[Chester]

so do straight ppl choose to be straight? and maybe we're all gay...
I used to be, but I locked into heterosexuality 20 years ago to avoid variable orientation rates.

[Irezumi Kiss]

so do straight ppl choose to be straight? and maybe we're all gay...

Eh. I simply know what kinda person turns me on.

Somehow that person looks more like Saki Takaoka than Brad Pitt!

(no offense to those who love Brad Pitt)

I only picked choice because I believe we (largely) choose our own (sexual) destinies and what makes us feel good within our lives.

Also because there are so MANY variants these days...we gotta toss the labels cuz nobody's 100% anything anymore...just saying gay and straight is the same thing as believing the world is just full of white and black people and forgetting about Asians...

(who in my analogy would be what? Bi? Transsexual? Metrosexuals? Omnisexuals?)

yeeesh!

Think about it...I mean, I'm not gay, but say if my male friend was giving me a "platonic" back massage and I popped a serious stiffy because of the physical stimulation, am I supposed to question my sexuality at that point?

Sometimes being touched and being loved is simply that, I think. So we choose who gets to touch and love us.

[Martino]

I mean, I'm not gay, but say if my male friend was giving me a "platonic" back massage and I popped a serious stiffy because of the physical stimulation, am I supposed to question my sexuality at that point?

If you're seriously suggesting that a back rub from a man was enough to float your boat, then I'd seriously suggest you consider the possability that you are gay.

[Irezumi Kiss]

If you're seriously suggesting that a back rub from a man was enough to float your boat, then I'd seriously suggest you consider the possability that you are gay.

You know, upon further reflection, I think you'd be right. I was just thinking that sometimes other stimulation than a directly sexual one may play a factor in arousal.

And if it just so happened I WUZ gay...well, fine!

Doubles my chances for getting laid on Saturday night!

:tongue:

[sageb1]

Tradition and social mechanics combined with genetics may explain GLBT and straight sexual behavior.

If there was a GLBT nation, then most of the people would be GLBT and the straights a minority.

Would we then consider straights are born straight?

I'd even quantify GLBT behavior as approximately 85% choice and 15% genetics, since social conditioning may be a causal factor.

E.g. a classmate of mine from elementary school days had a boy, and dressed him up in girl's clothing and treated him just like a girl. If he thinks of himself as gay, then it's because he was socialized as a girl rather than a boy. However, he is more articulate and less aggressive than boys who are treated like boys.

My sister's nieces consider him worthy of protection from ignorant boys and young men try to gay-bash him.

[Martino]

E.g. a classmate of mine from elementary school days had a boy, and dressed him up in girl's clothing and treated him just like a girl. If he thinks of himself as gay, then it's because he was socialized as a girl rather than a boy. However, he is more articulate and less aggressive than boys who are treated like boys.

I'm gay but I wasn't "socialised" as a girl ... I'm masculine. What you are describing is someone who is being conditioned to be a drag queen, a cross-dresser, which is something else again.

I would also consider this to be a case of child abuse ...

[holybull101]

IMO, I think it's a Birth Defect of some sort that causes some chemical imbalance.

[Martino]

IMO, I think it's a Birth Defect of some sort that causes some chemical imbalance.

Ah, eugenics rears its head again ...

[jjmeister]

I can understand that.

But does the amount of BS negativity ever create questions in your mind about "what is it about me?"

certainly.

but back to the original topic: i can only speak for myself, and i think i was born this way...i've been attracted to guys for as long as i remember (and this goes WAY back in my days as a child)...i never felt like i chose to be gay...

[kitty]

IMO, I think it's a Birth Defect of some sort that causes some chemical imbalance.

wow... a birth defect?

[rice cracker]

wow... a birth defect?

Don't feed it.

[rice cracker]

Can we spank it? Or whip it?
:wink:

Whatever, trust me when I say nobody cares to hear about it.

[Mr.Lum]

wow... a birth defect?
that could make sense I think...I mean, what is the good that comes out of it? not to be offesneive or anything, but it could be just that. I dont really care tho because it doesnt effect me. I dont really know how it happens, but it does.

[SunWuKong]

that could make sense I think...I mean, what is the good that comes out of it? not to be offesneive or anything, but it could be just that. I dont really care tho because it doesnt effect me. I dont really know how it happens, but it does.

well what good can come out of having one single organ that performs both functions of urination and ejaculation? by all accounts that can be considered a birth "defect". what good can come out of having tail bones? five fingers? i mean, we only really need 2 or 3, 1 of them being an opposable digit. toes? male nipples?

[kitty]

well what good can come out of having one single organ that performs both functions of urination and ejaculation? by all accounts that can be considered a birth "defect". what good can come out of having tail bones? five fingers? i mean, we only really need 2 or 3, 1 of them being an opposable digit. toes? male nipples?

i love male nipples! don't take them away!!

to say that homosexuality is a birth defect is to imply, socially, that there's something wrong or unnatural about alternative sexualities. it's a) seen throughout the animal kingdom and b) making that distinction could have enormous social ramifications, because you would be lumping homosexuality back in with psychological illnesses and disease.

on a purely biological level, we don't know what causes homosexuality vs. heterosexuality vs. bisexuality, or how anyone's sexuality is hardwired in the brain. Therefore, it's hardly appropriate to claim that it's a birth defect, when you don't know what's normal and what's been 'defected'.

and incidentally, as far as evolutionarily, the only behaviours that are 'good' are ones that would improve fitness or reproduction of an organism under certain circumstances. while it's arguable that homosexuality might decrease likelihood of reproduction, it's not as if homosexual men and women are incapable of reproduction, or do not have reproductive instincts (re: couples who have children through surrogate mothers, sperm donors or adoption). So really, if there is a genetic basis to homosexuality, it's probably an incidental development in the human species that never affected firtness and is kind of like male nipples, knuckle and toe hair, etc.

[Mr.Lum]

well what good can come out of having one single organ that performs both functions of urination and ejaculation? by all accounts that can be considered a birth "defect". what good can come out of having tail bones? five fingers? i mean, we only really need 2 or 3, 1 of them being an opposable digit. toes? male nipples?

I see the need for toes. my uncles friend lost his toes on his left foot and he walks real funny and cant run. male nipples may phase out sooner or later and the penis deal is just convinent. I mean, what a pain in the ass it would be to have to whip out a different organ to have sex/pee. the tail bone is I think left over from when we had tails and will likely be gone soon. I dont really see why someone would be gay. I mean, its unproductive. I cant have kids with you (a dude) I mean, if one were gay out in the wild with no adoption agencies or special social programmes of getting kids there would be no point in it. I could steal a baby or go find one, but for me to like dudes and want kids, Id have to go bone a woman. so Im not realy sure if it is genetic or not, it may just be a choice. I really dont care tho. all I know is that I dont like guys and some dudes like dudes and some chicks like chicks and thats how they are. oh well.

[kuilong]

so Im not realy sure if it is genetic or not, it may just be a choice. I really dont care tho.

I don't think that dichotomy is too clear. The APA says that while sexual orientation might not be completely genetic, it's certainly not a choice.

[Martino]

I dont really see why someone would be gay. I mean, its unproductive.

Is anything truly "unproductive" in nature? Everything natural exists for a purpose, so who's to say there is no evolotionary purpose for a gay gene switching itself on and off every few generations?

Population regulation, perhaps, or maybe a mechanism to encourage non competitive males of any given species to protect the female whilst the alpha's are out putting there thing down?

It certainly isn't comparable to obsolete physical characteristics like vestigial tails (btw, anyone heard the theory that humans were evolving towards a ife in the sea, but did an evolutionary U-turn?)

[kuilong]

It certainly isn't comparable to obsolete physical characteristics like vestigial tails (btw, anyone heard the theory that humans were evolving towards a ife in the sea, but did an evolutionary U-turn?)

The "aquatic ape" hypothesis? I think that's been discredited.

[Irezumi Kiss]

Population regulation, perhaps, or maybe a mechanism to encourage non competitive males of any given species to protect the female whilst the alpha's are out putting there thing down?
Yeah, but where does that leave lesbians?

(btw, anyone heard the theory that humans were evolving towards a ife in the sea, but did an evolutionary U-turn?)
Y'mean like growing gills out of the side of yer face? Like Mariner in "Waterworld?"
http://www.crankycritic.com/archive/posters/waterworld.jpg

[Martino]

The "aquatic ape" hypothesis? I think that's been discredited.

Not adopted by the scientific community, but not exactly discredited. It raised some interesting questions about some aspects of human physiology that seemed to be going some way towards an adaption to water.

Y'mean like growing gills out of the side of yer face? Like Mariner in "Waterworld?"

Er ... no.

[kitty]

I see the need for toes. my uncles friend lost his toes on his left foot and he walks real funny and cant run. male nipples may phase out sooner or later and the penis deal is just convinent. I mean, what a pain in the ass it would be to have to whip out a different organ to have sex/pee.

you mean like girls do?

[Napoleon Chynamite]

you mean like girls do?

Well technically I'm not sure if you consider the urinary tract/urethra an organ, but regardless girls/women don't pee with the vagina/vaginal organ-pathway cause it's a different canal obviously. In men both semen and urine pass through the urethra which in turn is of course inside the penile organ/penis.

[buffalo]

I was born gay. I can't recall a time when I didn't prefer men sexually. Not only do I prefer men, I can't imagine having sex or being intimate with a woman. Look, you turn 13, and with men, your dick chooses what sex you want to fuck. My dick chose Chris, Larry, Bill, and John. And it's been choosing men ever since.

[yoMAMA]

I was born gay. I can't recall a time when I didn't prefer men sexually. Not only do I prefer men, I can't imagine having sex or being intimate with a woman. Look, you turn 13, and with men, your dick chooses what sex you want to fuck. My dick chose Chris, Larry, Bill, and John. And it's been choosing men ever since.

Good point.

[rocketbunny]

I think sexual orientation is determined by genetics. I've seen gay people who say they "wished they weren't gay."

[onnihs]

i strongly believe that gays and lesbians were born with the certain traits that encourage same-sex orientation, but also decide for themselves which way they swing.

I don't know the biological validity of this, but perhaps homosexuality is an acquired trait passed on recessively, much like agression, or liking chocolate... i don't believe that being gay or not is like choosing black or white -- there are many, many shades of gray, namely, one's sexual fetishes. Perhaps homosexuality is merely a sexual fetish, like someone having a taste for feet, but it's completely up to the individual to decid whether or not that fetish will influence their entire lives.

so it's a mix of both!?

[Irezumi Kiss]

Doesn't that make hetero-ism a sexual "fetish," as well?

I mean, there are some people who are just asexual in nature — meaning that they could care less for having or wanting sex when they'd much rather eat a pizza with anchovies.

And then you have people who are so sexually intense, that for them, an orgasm is an orgasm regardless of who (or what..brrrrr) they're doing it with.

Perhaps the urge to have sex is biological and the nature/method of satisfying that urge is by choice?

[Hiroshi2]

Doesn't that make hetero-ism a sexual "fetish," as well?

I mean, there are some people who are just asexual in nature — meaning that they could care less for having or wanting sex when they'd much rather eat a pizza with anchovies.

And then you have people who are so sexually intense, that for them, an orgasm is an orgasm regardless of who (or what..brrrrr) they're doing it with.

Perhaps the urge to have sex is biological and the nature/method of satisfying that urge is by choice?




I don't know about that.......................I can't imagine life without *some* kind of sexual feelings. They're always there and on my mind.


And there is such a thing as "situational homosexuality", i.e. being in an enviornment with the same sex for long periods of time (prison, military, etc).

[hooligan]

I don't remember if answered before, but of course, born like this. I also believe that things in our society make heterosexism acceptable, justified by religion, social norms and gender roles. so, someone who's born lgbt has to overcome all these barriers to be accepted for who they really hard. (and it's tough).

[NotAsian]

I voted "born like this" but I don't think it's strictly true. I think it's something that happens after birth. My vote reflects my belief that it is out of the individual's control.

[Shuriken]

Whenever I get into an argument with someone about equal rights for gay people, those opposed to them fail to answer one question: Why would someone choose to be a member of such a despised minority?

In these days of Will & Grace and Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, homosexuality may seem to be fashionable in some circles. But I'm old enough to remember when gayness was shunned. Even to show a little sympathy or understanding of it was to make oneself suspect and socially ostracized. Things didn't begin to change in any meaningful way until the death of Rock Hudson and the growth of the AIDS-awareness movement. It certainly took determination to turn things around, and if homosexuality were only a "choice," a "habit" that could be kicked like smoking, I doubt that this would have happened.

As a heterosexual, I think that people are born gay, and if they "give up" homosexuality sometime after being "curious" and experimenting with it, they were probably never really gay to begin with.

[cmar]

Agreed. I get so tired of this discussion with people who think I chose to be gay. A person's sexuality is not something they make a decision on. It is something they are born with and instinctivly know. Sure, there are true bisexuals, and those people may chose between a gay or straight partner, but that doesn't mean that straight and gay people have that same option.

Could I live a straight lifestyle with a girlfriend/wife? Sure, but I would be unhappy and living a miserable lie. Mimicing the behavior doesn't change who we really are. Gay guys try it a lot (Governor of NJ, for example) but, like in his case, it usually doesn't work for them.

[Shuriken]

Could I live a straight lifestyle with a girlfriend/wife? Sure, but I would be unhappy and living a miserable lie. Mimicing the behavior doesn't change who we really are. Gay guys try it a lot (Governor of NJ, for example) but, like in his case, it usually doesn't work for them.

This is beside the point, but I think that N.J. Governor McGreevy was only using an admission of homosexuality to mask a case of government corruption.

[tapestrybabe]

Whenever I get into an argument with someone about equal rights for gay people, those opposed to them fail to answer one question: Why would someone choose to be a member of such a despised minority?

because they were despised...
and treated like shit...
by the opposite sex...
of whom they were partners with...
and they may find comfort, solice and
more understanding...
with their own...

being a member of a minority..
thats despised by society..
is different than being despised and...
treated like shit from a person...
on an individual level in whom one has a
relationship with...

born like this or a chose to be like this??
i believe this issue shouldnt be seen as
so black and white...
this or that...
because i believe environment...
and genetics both can play a part...

[cmar]

because they were despised...
and treated like shit...
by the opposite sex...
of whom they were partners with...
and they may find comfort, solice and
more understanding...
with their own...

being a member of a minority..
thats despised by society..
is different than being despised and...
treated like shit from a person...
on an individual level in whom one has a
relationship with...

born like this or a chose to be like this??
i believe this issue shouldnt be seen as
so black and white...
this or that...
because i believe environment...
and genetics both can play a part...

If people became gay because they were treated like shit by someone of the opposite sex, then gays would be the majority. Please.....

[tapestrybabe]

If people became gay because they were treated like shit by someone of the opposite sex, then gays would be the majority. Please.....

i disagree...
i think its is very well possible
for it to be a choice...
due to how ppl end up being treated
by others...

and i suppose i'm speaking...
in the perspective of being in the minority...
when it comes to being a female...

and that yeah, from my experience...
i find more comfort, more solice,
and more understanding amongst females...
amongst my own...
as opposed amongst males...

i regard myself as straight tho...
but i wouldnt pass it by some
women... who would make it a choice...
to be with other women...
just due to the fact...
they find more similarities...
amongst one another...

[Martino]

and that yeah, from my experience...
i find more comfort, more solice,
and more understanding amongst females...
amongst my own...
as opposed amongst males...

So do 99.999% of women on the planet. They're all lesbian?

There is a world of difference between a guy hanging out with other guys to talk guy stuff (cars ... um ... DIY ... football ... women) and a guy seeking male company because his genes are screaming at him to buy each and every cd single ever released by bloody abba.

i regard myself as straight tho...
but i wouldnt pass it by some
women... who would make it a choice...
to be with other women...
just due to the fact...
they find more similarities...
amongst one another...

So you're saying you seek solace with other women without finding yourself thinking about exploring their lady gardens --- you are kind of disproving your own idea, don't you think?

[asvenus]

i kind of agree with alot of what tapestry babe is saying...although its true that if we chose to be gay due to being treated like shit by ex partners the majority of people on the planet would be gay....i have worked and been around alot of gay people for the past 8 years..(thats not meant to sound strange although it might!!)...and my observation is that there appears to be alot of difference between men and women who are gay...i could be wrong and i probably am but i notice that women appear more opent ot the idea of having any partner whereas men seem to be more dogmatic about their 'gayness' and would not play with the idea of ahving girlfriends etc....maybe gender plays a part..who knows...born/chose...we'll never know and it probably differs for everyone...

[cmar]

i kind of agree with alot of what tapestry babe is saying...although its true that if we chose to be gay due to being treated like shit by ex partners the majority of people on the planet would be gay....i have worked and been around alot of gay people for the past 8 years..(thats not meant to sound strange although it might!!)...and my observation is that there appears to be alot of difference between men and women who are gay...i could be wrong and i probably am but i notice that women appear more opent ot the idea of having any partner whereas men seem to be more dogmatic about their 'gayness' and would not play with the idea of ahving girlfriends etc....maybe gender plays a part..who knows...born/chose...we'll never know and it probably differs for everyone...


Again I will argue, mimicing behavior does not change who we are. If you know a straight woman who explored lesbianism after being hurt by a man, it doesn not mean that she is now a lesbian. She is still a straight woman. As a gay man, I could easily engage in a heterosexual relationship with a woman, but I would still be gay and nothing would ever change it (like the NJ governor).

I honestly don't know anyone who chose their sexuality. Are you seriously saying that you had the option to pick? Did you flip a coin? Draw straws? Or did you just know deep inside who you were physically attracted to?

Sorry, but I get so frustrated with this discussion. Gay people are not really straight people who just want to piss all of you off by acting different.

[SunWuKong]

i kind of agree with alot of what tapestry babe is saying...although its true that if we chose to be gay due to being treated like shit by ex partners the majority of people on the planet would be gay

from my own experience, the problem with that idea is that, many (not all) gay people i've known actually never were sexually or romantically involved with people of the opposite sex in the first place as to have been "treated like shit" by them.

Again I will argue, mimicing behavior does not change who we are. If you know a straight woman who explored lesbianism after being hurt by a man, it doesn not mean that she is now a lesbian. She is still a straight woman. As a gay man, I could easily engage in a heterosexual relationship with a woman, but I would still be gay and nothing would ever change it (like the NJ governor).

I honestly don't know anyone who chose their sexuality. Are you seriously saying that you had the option to pick? Did you flip a coin? Draw straws? Or did you just know deep inside who you were physically attracted to?

Sorry, but I get so frustrated with this discussion. Gay people are not really straight people who just want to piss all of you off by acting different.

i think a big part of the confusion is that people who subscribe to the "choice" argument are thinking of the lifestyle as a matter of choice, and not plain attraction itself. personally, i don't think people choose who they are attracted to, but i do think they do choose what kind of sexual lifestyles they lead. however, it would seem more strange to me for gay people to consciously choose partners of the opposite sex than simply having same-sex couples. i've seen enough same-sex couples that it's not that strange to me anymore.

[tapestrybabe]

So do 99.999% of women on the planet. They're all lesbian


i did not say that would make
99% of women all lesbians...
i just implied...
coming from the view point of a female...
females who are seen as minorities...
i think its plausible...
for a percentage of females
because of life experiences...
how society is run, etc...
to make a concious decision to want
to be with their own...


so you're saying you seek solace with other women without finding yourself thinking about exploring their lady gardens --- you are kind of disproving your own idea, don't you think?

yes, i think i tend to seek better understanding...
amongst other women...
just like i can say...
i seek better understanding amongst other
asians...
and i'm just saying as an hypothesis...
if i can deliberately choose to
wanna date my own...
when it comes to dating another asian..
why than can i or anyone else...
make that same choice to
date their own...
when it comes to dating their same gender...
without having to be dictated solely by biology...

[SunWuKong]

i did not say that would make
99% of women all lesbians...
i just implied...
coming from the view point of a female...
females who are seen as minorities...
i think its plausible...
for a percentage of females
because of life experiences...
how society is run, etc...
to make a concious decision to want
to be with their own...

yeah but what if these particular women are not sexually attracted to other women, but are sexually attracted to men?

[asvenus]

i agree with alot of what tapestry babe is saying....as a woman, i can relate. i think (from what i have seen...no cmar i am not trying to assert any judgement or argument as i cant speak for gay peple experience as i am straight and would never be that preseumptious)...al im saying is men and women are very different in how we interact with eachother and other people, so i believe there are differences also between gay men and women...i dont think its a homogenous experience or even that similar....i know alot more lesbians than gay men so maybe my point of view is skewed...

[Martino]

al im saying is men and women are very different in how we interact with eachother and other people, so i believe there are differences also between gay men and women...i dont think its a homogenous experience or even that similar....i know alot more lesbians than gay men so maybe my point of view is skewed...

I'm sorry if I sound sarcastic, but is there anyone on the planet who doesn't know men and women are different, gay or not? I just don't see where you are going with this.

i did not say that would make
99% of women all lesbians...
i just implied...
coming from the view point of a female...
females who are seen as minorities...
i think its plausible...
for a percentage of females
because of life experiences...
how society is run, etc...
to make a concious decision to want
to be with their own...

... and women might feel more comfortable, stepping onto a tube train late at night, if there aren't just men on board. But what is the point you are trying to make???



yes, i think i tend to seek better understanding...
amongst other women...
just like i can say...
i seek better understanding amongst other
asians...
and i'm just saying as an hypothesis...
if i can deliberately choose to
wanna date my own...
when it comes to dating another asian..
why than can i or anyone else...
make that same choice to
date their own...
when it comes to dating their same gender...
without having to be dictated solely by biology...

Well ... the yard stick by how you measure these things is something called SEX.

You are talking about making a choice. Are you saying that you able to programme your body not to get sexually excited if, for example, an otherwise attractive man were to gyrate naked in front of you, on the grounds that you choose not to associate with his particular ethnicity? Can you consciously control your glands to suppress feelings of lust?

Or are are you talking about other factors that you are not acknowledging - race hate, for example?

Gay men and women do not make choices about homosexuality. If Sarah Jessica Parker pressed herself against me, I would not have to decide whether to sexually react or not. It just wouldn't happen.

[asvenus]

exactly martino that is the point im trying to make....what i was trying to say by reminding us all that men and women are different is simply to say that, that also means lesbians and gay men are very different, which relates to my earlier point about gay men and lesbians reacting differently to the same sex experience. thats why i support alot of what tapestry babe was saying...example you as a gay man is saying no matter what you would not be attracted to a woman sexually and in my experience that appears to be common in most gay men...lesbians on the other hand appear to be alot less dogmatic (not the right word but you know what i mean)...because women are different, i know that thorugh mine and other experience, we would maybe embark on a lesbian or straight experience for rather different reasons to a gay man....so what im saying is that even though myself and tapestry babe are straight i believe we have more in common than you with lesbians, even though youre gay based solely on the female experience and what that feels like...im not suggesting that lesbians decide to be lesbian all im saying is that many (if not most) do choose a partner (male or female) based on different things to a gay man...i dont know if you understand any of that as im starting to lose the plot now too....being gay or straight is not a fixed, homogenous experience, it is fluid and individual experience

[Martino]

exactly martino that is the point im trying to make....what i was trying to say by reminding us all that men and women are different is simply to say that, that also means lesbians and gay men are very different, which relates to my earlier point about gay men and lesbians reacting differently to the same sex experience. thats why i support alot of what tapestry babe was saying...example you as a gay man is saying no matter what you would not be attracted to a woman sexually and in my experience that appears to be common in most gay men...lesbians on the other hand appear to be alot less dogmatic (not the right word but you know what i mean)...because women are different, i know that thorugh mine and other experience, we would maybe embark on a lesbian or straight experience for rather different reasons to a gay man....so what im saying is that even though myself and tapestry babe are straight i believe we have more in common than you with lesbians, even though youre gay based solely on the female experience and what that feels like...im not suggesting that lesbians decide to be lesbian all im saying is that many (if not most) do choose a partner (male or female) based on different things to a gay man...i dont know if you understand any of that as im starting to lose the plot now too....being gay or straight is not a fixed, homogenous experience, it is fluid and individual experience

yes, yes, no, well, yes, no, no, yes, really, ooh, yes, gay fluid.

To summarise, do you vote Born Like or Chose to be Like? Because, to be frank, reading the above I still haven't a clue what you are trying to say.

[asvenus]

teehee...me sorry..i told you i was losing the plot myself!! i actually voted 'born like this', but then thought i should have put 'i dont know'....to try and clarify (look i have a hangover k :tongue: ) all im saying is gay men seem to be more GAY than lesbians, simply because men and women are programmed in different ways...ie; YOU (a gay MAN) will not find any woman sexually arousing, not through choice whereas ME (a straight WOMAN) may find certain women sexually arousing depending on how i choose to look at the situation/her....ok i give up...*collapses*

[nonamerasian]

YOU (a gay MAN) will not find any woman sexually arousing, not through choice whereas ME (a straight WOMAN) may find certain women sexually arousing depending on how i choose to look at the situation/her....ok i give up...*collapses*

I don't think so. I'm a straight woman and by your theory, I should be able to be aroused by women, but no.

It doesn't happen.

We don't have control in what we are excited by. Our sexuality is controlled by something innate.

[hooligan]

It's funny because I get called on when I post in the hapa forum. I don't think it's fair for people who do not identify within the community to answer in regards to a question that, i believe, that only people of the LGBTIQQ community can answer. We can assume all we like, but unless we are of the community we can't say that it is due to one or the other.

As for choice or birth, I'm going to agree with the those who say that it's something that's more innate.

[tapestrybabe]

So you're saying you seek solace with other women without finding yourself thinking about exploring their lady gardens --- you are kind of disproving your own idea, don't you think?

i had my very first sexual experience being with another women the other night... OKAY, it was more like a threesome i was involved in, a couple... yes, i'm pushing the envelope with myself here... and it was quite an enjoyable experience, thank you very much...

and yes, when it comes to my sexuality... i would very much consider myself a bisexual... in which i think i was innately born like that... however, when it comes to dating, being in a relationship, love, romance-- i see myself as a heterosexual... but because of the so called "solace" i may feel with another woman... i think its a POSSIBILIty i could date another female... i'm not sure tho... i mean, i know there would be a different quality to it, if i did... and if i did... i know it would be more of a choice...

[Shuriken]

When I was recovering from surgery Back East, I read the letters section of a newspaper with a rather conservative readership. I remember reading, more than once, some letters to the editor arguing that since homosexuals can be "converted" to heterosexuality, discrimination against them isn't really discrimination.

According to these people, "discrimination" can only occur if bias is directed against something that the discriminatee can't change, such as skin color. And since homosexuality can be "changed," it is argued, bias against it isn't considered "discrimination." Therefore, issues such as the banning of same-sex marriage aren't seen as discriminatory.

Never mind that any "evidence" about the changeability of homosexuality is not supported by the larger scientific community; as long as something buttresses these people's pre-existing beliefs, they will cling to it.

So, the idea that homosexuality is a "choice" helps to foster discrimatory laws and attitudes. As a heterosexual — and more importantly, as a fellow human being — I'm very dismayed by all this.

[Irezumi Kiss]

So, the idea that homosexuality is a "choice" helps to foster discrimatory laws and attitudes. As a heterosexual — and more importantly, as a fellow human being — I'm very dismayed by all this.
You'd think that as a "choice," it'd beget more compassion and understanding, but nope...

Doesn't matter if by choice or design, methinks...if a person or a group of people fear something that threatens to take down one of their self-constructed walls, they'll do whatever it takes to put it in its place.

[Hapa Meister]

From my experience in Homo Lumpur, feminine have a significantly higher chance of being/becoming homosexual or a transvestite. Unfeminine guys are more likely to be bisexual than full blown homo.

There are different degrees of fem-ness... Michael Jackson and Richard Simmons would be the extremes but there's of course those that are only mildly fem. So in essence there is a large genetic factor at play w/ regards to the fem's hormone levels being different than your typical macho man- hence the higher pitched voice, softer, more elegant facial features of fem guys.

[Martino]

From my experience in Homo Lumpur, feminine have a significantly higher chance of being/becoming homosexual or a transvestite. Unfeminine guys are more likely to be bisexual than full blown homo.

There are different degrees of fem-ness... Michael Jackson and Richard Simmons would be the extremes but there's of course those that are only mildly fem. So in essence there is a large genetic factor at play w/ regards to the fem's hormone levels being different than your typical macho man- hence the higher pitched voice, softer, more elegant facial features of fem guys.

You can be camp and straight. Butch and gay. Fat and gay. Thin and gay. Straight and look great in a dress. You can be gay and insensitive. Gay and racist. Gay and hideous. Being 'feminine' or not is not the starting point for being gay or not.

[Hapa Meister]

Then why do MOST gay guys TALK LIKE THAT!?
Hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii sweety!!!!!!!!!! Be it Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, the MTV Real World's Latino guy's gay friends, Homo Lumpur's loads of examples.
Actually MTV Real World had one gay guy who wasn't fem- the Black guy what's his name.
But seriously, 80+% of the gay dudes I encountered in the Gay Capital of Malaysia and even elsewhere spoke in a somewhat softer tone and in a higher pitch.

Oh, and I joined the talent agency of this one fashion designer guy who would put on a more "normal sounding" voice when conducting business but when I met the guy he switched to his "gayer"/more high pitched feminineish voice... like WTF!?

P.S. Many of the gay guys in KL were bigtime gym buffs.

[Martino]

Then why do MOST gay guys TALK LIKE THAT!?

What "most" gay guys? Are you viewing the world thru your TV set?

Come to London. Go to pubs like The Yard, go to gyms like Holmes Place in Canary Wharf, go to saunas like Pleasuredome in Waterloo, you will not run into the squeaky voiced camp guys you think equates as 'gay'.

Most gays I have met or dated aren't camp, most gays I meet and circulate with don't go in for that kind of affectation. You are just talking stereotypes.

[Hapa Meister]

Come to London. Go to pubs like The Yard, go to gyms like Holmes Place in Canary Wharf, go to saunas like Pleasuredome in Waterloo, you will not run into the squeaky voiced camp guys you think equates as 'gay'.

Most gays I have met or dated aren't camp, most gays I meet and circulate with don't go in for that kind of affectation. You are just talking stereotypes.

Hmmm... It'll be interesting to compare the gays in London one day. KL and the parts of the States I've lived in, most of the gays were effeminate from a range of mildly to very. It could be that there are fewer effeminate gays amongst the European Caucasian community compared to Asian/Eurasian/Latino(?).

[Hapa Meister]

Someone should start a thread about dudes who go from straight to bisexual or even straight to bisexual and then souly homosexual.
Have any of you enjoyed watching female porn (or internet porn) ever and then somehow started liking dudes more?

[Martino]

Hmmm... It'll be interesting to compare the gays in London one day. KL and the parts of the States I've lived in, most of the gays were effeminate from a range of mildly to very. It could be that there are fewer effeminate gays amongst the European Caucasian community compared to Asian/Eurasian/Latino(?).


The London scene is multi-cultural.

So how many guys have you shagged then? Looking at your message history, you're clearly closeted with issues ...

[>:^|]

Don't feed it and maybe it will go away.

It would be so helpful if people were required to wear those pink triangles. Then we would know for sure who was gay and who wasn't.

[YuheiCarreau]

Don't feed it and maybe it will go away.

It would be so helpful if people were required to wear those pink triangles. Then we would know for sure who was gay and who wasn't.

No need. You can tell by the voice, remember?

And if the man is a mute, the bright nail polish, frosted hair, and pink feather boa should tip you off...

[Hapa Meister]

I don't do dudes.

[hooligan]

I don't do dudes.

Sounds like you might. It's ok though, we're all closet homosexuals.

[Irezumi Kiss]

Sounds like you might. It's ok though, we're all closet homosexuals.
Some of us have bigger closets than others, though... :tongue:

[Martino]

I don't do dudes.

But you study gay men so closely, and it sounds like you hang around gay gyms, shower rooms etc an awful lot.

[Hapa Meister]

scientists have found one part of the brain associted with same-sex attraction.

gay males have areas similar to females. gay females have areas similar to males. this is to do with the amount of oestrogen (estrogen and something else) present during development. however, this study was done in mice; not sure if this was carried to humans.

however, there is always a environmental factor since:
phenotype = gentic factor + environmental factor.

conclusion = strong gentic link

Like I said from the beginning- hormonal factors.
That's why a lot of those feminine voice dudes turnout to be gay.

[sOKaLiBoY]

i think that you might be born with the path laid in front of you. But you need to make the choice yourself in which way you swing

[Meki]

I believe that it has to genetics because out of all my friends that are GBLT even though they had not known what it meant to be GBLT when they were younger they always knew something was quite different about themselves. Besides how do you really "choose" who you are attracted to or not?

i think that you might be born with the path laid in front of you. But you need to make the choice yourself in which way you swing

Well yeah, everyone has a choice. But you can choose to live a lie or not. For instance, if a straight person chooses to marry someone for love or chooses to marry someone for money.

[Hapa Meister]

I know you're gay, but what am I? :rolleyes:

[Martino]

I know you're gay, but what am I? :rolleyes:

The phrase 'gagging for it' springs to mind.

[YuheiCarreau]

I know you're gay, but what am I? :rolleyes:

I really want to give an honest answer here...

[kimpossible]

Hapa Meister, you've done nothing but antagonize and show disrespect in the gay and lesbian forum.

Stay out of it. Closing this thread until Chris gets back and decides what to do with it.

[Chris]

This is opening back. On the condition that Hapa Meister do not post on this thread. I am tired of his generalizations. Sorry to all fellow members for me not being around. I will try to be online more from now on. =( But all you guys are great.

[Trowa Sky]

I think we' chose this lifestyle. If i really wanted to i could force my self to be fully gay or fully straight.

[Hiroshi2]

I think we' chose this lifestyle. If i really wanted to i could force my self to be fully gay or fully straight.





You say "we" as in, you are gay yourself and you say you've chosen such a lifestyle. I can believe that. There's this dude at our church......................he's a young white man from Miami (predominantly middle-aged black church) and he says that he "used to be gay" until he got back with Christ, and said he had to leave Miami because of "the temptation".

[kimpossible]

Looking back through the thread for other responses though, you'll see that many don't feel it was a 'lifestyle' they chose. Before you come to a conclustion based solely on Trowa's response you might want to read back through other responses and consider it as a whole.

[Trowa Sky]

I've read other responses, and I've heard my gay friends tell me they were born like this, but the truth is we're not.

Babies aren't born having sex. Bottom line you're not born straight, nor gay. You're born with the ability and CHOICE to follow whatever path you want. It just so happens that most of our culture tries to push the heterosexual lifestyle on us. And infact it did for most of our time. But in times when it wasn't pushed people were more accepted so people who decided to give into other temptations that they might have had could have. I.E. the Roman Empire where homosexuality, bisexuality, heterosexuality, and bestiality (which is wrong no matter what) where commonly practiced. Before men would settle down and marry they would have homosexual affairs with teenage boys (and their would shower the parents with gifts) and it was OK. But NOW since the media was pushing the HEtero lifestyle people had to lie and bullshit and say "oH I was BORN like this, why would i want to CHOOSE THIS?" which i think is bullshit and just a cop out. The only thing you're born is male, female, black, white, asian, indian, spanish, and so forth with ethnicites. No matter what anyone says or what bullshit genetics they come up with babies aren't born having sex, so you're not born gay or straight we all have a tendencey to be both ( like myself) or just limit ourselves to one. i don't know how a guy who's never had sex with a girl can say he prefers men to women, and how a guy who's never had sex with a man to say he prefers women to men. If you haven't tried it you never know, you can only assume you wouldn't like it but you don't know I think it's a cop out to bitch and whine that we're born like this. Yeah so you go through shit when you come out, okay so what, I'm going through shit now for starting my coming out process. But if you're really sticking with your decision then just stick it out, don't cop out and say that we're born like this because we're not. And another example of how we're more likely to be gay or bi, is now. Look at all the younger kids deciding that they want to give being gay or bi a shot because of all the gays in the media. you've got 16-19 year old kids trying out both lifestyles to see which one their more comftorble with.

To everybody thats' come out, or is coming out yeah i Know it can suck, but just stick with it.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

A few things here, I realize this is a sensitive topic:

It's hard for me to believe that I had an equal choice (or still do) in whether I'm attracted to girls or guys, because I remember being attracted to girls at the age of 4 or 5, and I would only get erections after looking at girls before middle school, when having a crush on a girl or expressing your attraction towards a girl meant social ridicule or teasing by peers.

2nd of all, it doesn't make biological sense to me. It would seem that a predisposition of sexual desire towards the opposite sex in the majority of the population would be necessary to ensure reproduction and the passing on of genetic material.

My current stance on homosexuality: I only have my own experiences to go off of, but I don't think we are born with equal predisposition to wanting to fuck either sex. I believe we (or the vast majority of us) are born with a leaning towards either side, even though biological determinants may not lead an individual to end up with a certain orientation for sure. I also think that a predisposition towards wanting to fuck the opposite sex makes biological sense, which isn't to say that homosexuality is a defect (frankly whether it is or isn't makes little difference to me), but simply to say it doesn't make sense to say that we are all born with the equal opportunity to choose, with socialization and environmental circumstances being the prime determinants of our sexual orientation. So basically, all gay, lesbian, and bisexual people are the way they are because they somehow resisted socialization or the socialization process didnt' affect them in the same way it affected most of the others? Something about that doesn't sit right with me.

i don't know how a guy who's never had sex with a girl can say he prefers men to women, and how a guy who's never had sex with a man to say he prefers women to men.

I can say I prefer women to men because my dick only gets hard when I see women, especially women who are as hot as fuck. Speaking from the point of view of a hot-blooded guy in his 20's, when I see a hot woman I have the urge to jump her bones and empty myself inside her. Sometimes the mere attractive voice of a girl/woman is enough to get the machinery going. On the other hand, while I can agree that Brad Pitt has a really beautiful and impressive body, nothing really happened when I watched him strut around in Troy. Is that a poor measure of determination? You tell me. I can honestly say that there have been times when I've looked at guys from afar and thought that they were women, and thus been aroused. But that's only because I interpreted what I saw as a woman and not a man. This has also happened with guys that have certain parts of the body that seem more feminine or look like the parts of women. Still doesn't change the fact that I'm naturally attracted to feminine features, or features that are more prevalent among females.

[Trowa Sky]

thats what i think. Seriously, how do you know?? Unless you've never done it. Like how would you know you hate Vanillia unless you never tasted it, vice versa with Chocolate. We're able to eat ((be)) both but people just limit themselves from the get go. Like little children saying they don't like peas, even though they've yet to eat them.

[sOKaLiBoY]

I can say I prefer women to men because my dick only gets hard when I see women


word. i have never been turned on by a man. i have no interest in men that goes beyond a friendship. end of story

[Meki]

thats what i think. Seriously, how do you know?? Unless you've never done it. Like how would you know you hate Vanillia unless you never tasted it, vice versa with Chocolate. We're able to eat ((be)) both but people just limit themselves from the get go. Like little children saying they don't like peas, even though they've yet to eat them.

If you are strictly speaking in regards to the physical aspects of sex then, I guess anyone could get off on pure physical stimulation from any gender. But this does not mean they are attracted to this person. I can personally say that I am not physically attracted to a woman and trust me sometimes I think it would be easier if I were (At least with the understanding part. :wink: ) so I would have no problems admitting it if that were the case. I would have to agree with Gumby on this one. I have always been attracted to the male form. This was even at a young age and it’s not like anyone encouraged me to be attracted to anyone. It was just something innate. And I’m sorry but to compare sexual attraction to food is not even a true comparison. I don’t have to be with a woman sexually to know that I don’t find them physically appealing. I merely have to look at them. Attraction is not sexual gratification. So even though I may not have been with a woman sexually, I know what I find physically attractive and that is not the female form. Therefore, I would have to say that this is how some people that are GLBT feel as well.

[Martino]

I've read other responses, and I've heard my gay friends tell me they were born like this, but the truth is we're not.

So what do your cough friends say to you when tell them they are liars, that they are completely wrong and don't know their own minds and bodies?

and if your friends are, indeed, your friends - why don't you listen to them?

[Chris]

I've read other responses, and I've heard my gay friends tell me they were born like this, but the truth is we're not.

Babies aren't born having sex. Bottom line you're not born straight, nor gay. You're born with the ability and CHOICE to follow whatever path you want. It just so happens that most of our culture tries to push the heterosexual lifestyle on us. And infact it did for most of our time. But in times when it wasn't pushed people were more accepted so people who decided to give into other temptations that they might have had could have. I.E. the Roman Empire where homosexuality, bisexuality, heterosexuality, and bestiality (which is wrong no matter what) where commonly practiced. Before men would settle down and marry they would have homosexual affairs with teenage boys (and their would shower the parents with gifts) and it was OK. But NOW since the media was pushing the HEtero lifestyle people had to lie and bullshit and say "oH I was BORN like this, why would i want to CHOOSE THIS?" which i think is bullshit and just a cop out. The only thing you're born is male, female, black, white, asian, indian, spanish, and so forth with ethnicites. No matter what anyone says or what bullshit genetics they come up with babies aren't born having sex, so you're not born gay or straight we all have a tendencey to be both ( like myself) or just limit ourselves to one. i don't know how a guy who's never had sex with a girl can say he prefers men to women, and how a guy who's never had sex with a man to say he prefers women to men. If you haven't tried it you never know, you can only assume you wouldn't like it but you don't know I think it's a cop out to bitch and whine that we're born like this. Yeah so you go through shit when you come out, okay so what, I'm going through shit now for starting my coming out process. But if you're really sticking with your decision then just stick it out, don't cop out and say that we're born like this because we're not. And another example of how we're more likely to be gay or bi, is now. Look at all the younger kids deciding that they want to give being gay or bi a shot because of all the gays in the media. you've got 16-19 year old kids trying out both lifestyles to see which one their more comftorble with.

To everybody thats' come out, or is coming out yeah i Know it can suck, but just stick with it.


I could say the very same thing about your response. That yoru choice is a cop out response as well. Just because you dont feel that your answer fits into your lifestyle that the rest of us that are legitmate responses to this question is moot in point.

I feel that you are entitle to your response. But don't think MY response is a cop out to being born like this.

[Trowa Sky]

well perhaps i came off WAY TOO BRASH. I dunno i talked to my friend Amarndo(GAY) about this today, and It's just like,,,,,,,,,,,, i dunno i don't want to cause any more drama in the gay community ( lord knows we have enough ) by this, I shouldn't consider other peoples feelings bulllshit, because they can in return consider my feelings bullshit. I'm taking a different stance now, I feel i chose this life, but if you feel you were born this way, then ok. I'm not trying to deep throat you with my ideas. Nor disrespect anyone any further.

[Hiroshi2]

It's hard for me to believe that I had an equal choice (or still do) in whether I'm attracted to girls or guys, because I remember being attracted to girls at the age of 4 or 5, and I would only get erections after looking at girls before middle school, when having a crush on a girl or expressing your attraction towards a girl meant social ridicule or teasing by peers.



Well, first thing is.....................I think Trowa had a very good point I've never even thought of before - is anybody born gay, or straight, for that matter? Isn't sexuality shaped by enviornment, what we grow up around?


As for the peer pressure............................there is no such thing at age 4 or 5. Kids that age do what their parents want them to do, expect them to do. They don't care what they're friends think. They don't kiss girls because their parents probably don't encourage any kind of sexual, or remotely sexual behavior at that age. Most fathers in America would be highly dissappointed/upset, if not furious, that their son was gay. So I guarantee you that if a boy in kindegarten does something like kiss another boy, or act a little feminine, the parents will try their hardest to straighten it out. And assuming it's not too late...........................the kid'll straighten out and understand kissing/displaying open, intimate affection with other boys is not acceptable, and so he will not do it. Then again..............................I think even by age 7 or 8 it could be too late, based on my own personal observations of kids I know that age who I *know* are going to turn out to be gay.

[Martino]

I've never even thought of before - is anybody born gay, or straight, for that matter?

Er ... maybe you should take a look at the title of the thread?

:confused:

[nonamerasian]

I've read other responses, and I've heard my gay friends tell me they were born like this, but the truth is we're not.

Babies aren't born having sex. Bottom line you're not born straight, nor gay. You're born with the ability and CHOICE to follow whatever path you want. It just so happens that most of our culture tries to push the heterosexual lifestyle on us. And infact it did for most of our time. But in times when it wasn't pushed people were more accepted so people who decided to give into other temptations that they might have had could have. I.E. the Roman Empire where homosexuality, bisexuality, heterosexuality, and bestiality (which is wrong no matter what) where commonly practiced. Before men would settle down and marry they would have homosexual affairs with teenage boys (and their would shower the parents with gifts) and it was OK. But NOW since the media was pushing the HEtero lifestyle people had to lie and bullshit and say "oH I was BORN like this, why would i want to CHOOSE THIS?" which i think is bullshit and just a cop out. The only thing you're born is male, female, black, white, asian, indian, spanish, and so forth with ethnicites. No matter what anyone says or what bullshit genetics they come up with babies aren't born having sex, so you're not born gay or straight we all have a tendencey to be both ( like myself) or just limit ourselves to one. i don't know how a guy who's never had sex with a girl can say he prefers men to women, and how a guy who's never had sex with a man to say he prefers women to men. If you haven't tried it you never know, you can only assume you wouldn't like it but you don't know I think it's a cop out to bitch and whine that we're born like this. Yeah so you go through shit when you come out, okay so what, I'm going through shit now for starting my coming out process. But if you're really sticking with your decision then just stick it out, don't cop out and say that we're born like this because we're not. And another example of how we're more likely to be gay or bi, is now. Look at all the younger kids deciding that they want to give being gay or bi a shot because of all the gays in the media. you've got 16-19 year old kids trying out both lifestyles to see which one their more comftorble with.

To everybody thats' come out, or is coming out yeah i Know it can suck, but just stick with it.

I think that being bi, it's easier for you to say that sexuality is a choice.

I used to be ambidextrous and it was difficult for me to understand why lefties couldn't just use scissors with their right hands and stop complaining.

It was easy for me to think that people could just choose which hand they do what with because I wasn't born with a propensity to use one hand more than the other.

You don't have that inclination to go to only one sex because you are attracted to both, so it's easier for you to say that people choose who they are attracted to.

[nola]

Stereotyping gays (saying they like cooking and baking and have high-pitched voices) is not the topic of this thread. Stay on topic and I thought you were supposed to stop posting about homosexuality.

Being gay is a combination of nature and nurture. I agree with nonamerasian that bis see it more as a choice because that is more often their own experience.

[C&Hgrl]

Culture is taught. Gender roles and expectations are taught. I think each individual has a blueprint or genetic imprint to be more or less feminine or masculine.
This can cause conflicts to one's identity and role in society, be it gay, lesbian, bi, transgender or intersexed.

Gender and culture can conflict, when one is born into a mix. Look at hapas for instance. Hapas conflict with their cultures. A baby can be born intersexed, being part male and female. This conflicts with gender identity. Some say that being gay, lesbian, bi or transgender is merely a intersex type condition to a lesser degree.

This is a fact of nature and is spread throughout different species, such as polar bears, monkeys and humans. This phenomenon is on the rise, with pollutants in the air, water and land increasing. Pollutants release large amounts or toxic estradiol like substances.

Estradiol is a female hormone which helps to develop secondary sex characteristics in fetuses.
When babies are first conceived, we are androgenous, or sexless. Through dna, we are assigned xx (female) or xy (male) chromosomes. When the fetus's development is interupted by outside or (hormonal) imbalances, it hinders the male or female development, resulting in an intersex birth. In severe cases, the baby is born with both genitalia. ("Hermaphrodite" is a derogatory term). In the mildest of case, a baby with xy chromosomes can develop strong feminine characteristics including (but not limited to) personality and physical development. This same phenomenon can also occur to xx babies having strong masculine traits and appearances.

The world in not black and white as many percieve it to be. It's elitism that perpetuates the attitudes.

[Irezumi Kiss]

"Hermaphrodite" is a derogatory term

Interesting and the first time I've heard so. I'm willing to take your word for it, if you can explain how (I know, "human" is the only label we all REALLY need) it is. It's hard for me to feel "hermaphrodite" being on the same derogatory insult level as being called "faggot," if you get my drift.

[C&Hgrl]

Hermaphrodite was originally use as a medical term describing intersex conditions. However, over the years the term has been exploited in the sex industry to 'exotify' intersexed people just like "homosexual" to "gay. "Intersex" is the current term used in medicine.

[Irezumi Kiss]

Hermaphrodite was originally use as a medical term describing intersex conditions. However, over the years the term has been exploited in the sex industry to 'exotify' intersexed people just like "homosexual" to "gay. "Intersex" is the current term used in medicine.
Ahhh okay, now I understand it better! Thanks! For some reason, I'd never heard of that term until you mentioned it and I try to pride myself on being on the up-and-up about these sorta things...I did a Google on it and found out that there is a magazine called "Intersex," although it seems to be more of a porn thing than scientific!

[C&Hgrl]

The world is always full of surprises and wonders. Yes, you're hypothesis was indeed correct. Females trapped in men's bodies.
Tranvestites however is a different world. "Transvestite" is actually a latin term meaning "crossdresser". Transvestites differ from transsexuals and intersexuals, in that their reasons for "dressing up" is for sexual fetish or pervertion. Transexuals are those who were born male or female, but have strong psychological identities of the opposite sex. Intersexuals are born with physicaly obvious anomalies, such as having both genitals, no genitals, or somewhere in the mix in between. In some cases, intersexual have XXY, XXXY, X or XYY chromosomes. There are also intersexuals that have XX (female) chromosome, but are born physically male, or XY(male) chromosome, but are born physically female.
The old binary, one is either male or female gender is not true.
To learn more about intersex conditions, you might look up the "american intersex society" website. I think you'll find it very interesting reading from a medical standpoint.

[etcj]

Hermaphrodite has a bit more of a poetic license for the derivations, but yeah, it is a bit outdated for today's standard.

Getting back to the topic, I actually found a great report (PDF Format http://www.nyacyouth.org/nyac/NYAC_YOC_Report-Nov02.pdf) on published ethnographic studies about sexuality and youth of color. For the most, it does discuss how Asian and Pacific Islander cultures typically reject being non-heterosexual as a product/foreighn influence of Western culture. Therefore, launching us back into a Details-esque dichotomy of whether we're Gay or Asian.

[Kisa]

I really think that homosexual people are predisposed genetically to be homosexual. BUT! It really isn't peoples' choice as to whom they are attracted to.

[Martino]

Is this the longest running poll in YW history?