Wesley Clark's Letter to Asian Americans

[Yeahman]

As the fastest-growing ethnic group in our nation, Asian Pacific Americans (APAs) deserve a larger role in shaping our national priorities. The APA community is emerging as more and more of a social and economic force. We need to listen to carefully to the growing chorus of APA voices.

As a group, APAs should be proud of their achievements and contributions to American society. But I realize these achievements have also spawned a problem - the myth of the "model minority." While it's important to recognize the impressive strides that APAs have made, it is equally important to see the "model minority" myth for what it is - a dangerous misconception that APAs no longer face challenges in this country. In fact, APAs suffer from significantly higher poverty rates than non-Hispanic white Americans. They also lag behind the rest of the country in such important indices as home ownership and health insurance.

Our government has a history of discrimination against APAs. That's why it is absolutely essential that APAs - who have overcome so many barriers and contributed so much to our economy and our society - be treated with fairness, dignity and respect. Many APAs are recent immigrants. By ensuring equal treatment and opportunity in economic policy, health care, immigration, bilingual education, government services, home ownership and affordable housing, I will ensure that APAs feel welcomed and accepted as full-fledged American citizens.

Specifically, I will focus on:

* Job Creation and Economic Security
Nearly three million private-sector jobs have been lost under the Bush administration - the worst record on the economy since Herbert Hoover. Job creation must be our top economic priority. Opportunity starts with jobs, which is why I want to repeal Bush's massive tax cuts for the wealthy and invest $100 billion in a job creation program. The past three years have also seen the largest number of small business failures in American history. I will refocus attention on creating opportunities for small businesses, which employ over half of all American workers - and where many APA immigrants get their start.

* Health Care
Health care is a problem for all Americans and a crisis for many. Costs are skyrocketing, and more Americans are uninsured than at any time in our history. The problem is especially acute in the APA community, where the proportion of uninsured is higher than the country as a whole. Parents shouldn't have to choose between necessities and health care for their children. I will fight to ensure that APAs can access affordable, high-quality health care. My health care plan provides coverage for every uninsured American under 22. The plan also reduces premiums and provides access to coverage for all Americans. We must remedy the inequities in minority access and care. We can do that by increasing funding for the National Center for Minority Health and Health Disparities and by strengthening programs such as the Department of Health and Human Service's Asian American and Pacific Islander Initiative. Finally, we must not turn our backs on health care for expectant mothers and immigrant children - as the Republicans in Congress have done. Children who aren't citizens shouldn't be treated differently from children who are, especially when it comes to health care. We need to lift the ban on Children's Health Insurance for non-citizens.

* Immigration Reform
We must never forget that we are a nation of immigrants. Unlike George W. Bush, I am committed to ensuring evenhandedness and efficiency in the administration and enforcement of our immigration laws. The transfer of INS functions to the Department of Homeland Security has caused confusion and bureaucratic delay for too many innocent immigrant families. The Bush administration made things worse by targeting immigrants from Islamic countries for added scrutiny and registration. I will make sure that immigrants are processed fairly and efficiently. We need reform that recognizes the important contributions of immigrants. Our policy must help to unite families instead of dividing them. It must ensure that law-abiding, hard-working undocumented workers may eventually earn their citizenship. And we must create a temporary worker program that funnels workers to employers who need them and protects workers from exploitation. We must also reform the immigration process - by cutting the backlog of applications at the Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services, speeding up the naturalization process, and reducing the wait for family visas. And with the processes for legal immigration improved, we must tighten our borders to deter attempts at illegal immigration that too often end in tragedy. This requires better border security, enhanced penalties against illicit traffickers, and full enforcement of unfair labor practice laws against employers who exploit undocumented workers.

* Homeland Security and Equal Treatment
I support the fundamental purpose of the Patriot Act - to give law enforcement additional tools to combat terrorism. But I oppose provisions of the Act that create opportunities for discrimination and the abuse of our civil rights or individual liberties. Unfortunately, certain ethnic groups like Arab Americans and South Asian Americans have borne the brunt of new laws and practices that impose unfair and unreasonable burdens on them and their families. The Bush administration's approach strikes fear in the hearts of innocent citizens. We should yield the absolute minimum amount of our liberty necessary to protect us from terrorism, because these liberties are what make our country worth protecting. For example, I condemn the unjustified use of race in routine law enforcement. It's discriminatory and it's wrong. I support federal legislation to help end racial profiling. The Bush admnistration makes speeches about racial profiling, but actions speak louder than words.

* Education
Early education is essential to giving every child a chance to succeed. That's why I proposed a plan to provide pre-school for all four year olds and expand Head Start so that all eligible children can enroll. I am committed to fully funding programs that target necessary resources to the schools that need them. We need to fix No Child Left Behind so that children aren't stuck in schools crippled by lack of resources. We must also invest in hiring, training, and retaining teachers - instead of cutting funding, like the Bush administration. And we need to invest in school construction and renovation so that teachers and students have safe, modern facilities in which to work and learn. We must also overcome educational language barriers through bilingual programs that recognize multicultural environments help children learn and thrive. College education is critical. That's why I'll give students $6,000 for the first two years of college, helping an additional one million Americans get a higher education.

* Improving Access to Government Services
Many APAs find it hard to access the government services they need due to language barriers, cultural differences, and lack of information. Executive Order 13125, issued by President Clinton, was the first executive order in American history dedicated to increasing the participation of APAs in federal programs where they have traditionally been underserved. Programs such as health, human services, education, housing, labor, transportation, and economic and community development. Unlike President Bush, I will never allow this initiative to lapse. One of my first acts as President will be to issue a new order. It is essential that we improve the access and participation of APAs that have historically been underserved.

* Housing
Owning your own home is key to the American dream. Contrary to the "model minority" myth, APAs lag behind in home ownership. They also face problems in obtaining affordable housing. Three steps will help fix these problems. First, we must get the economy going again, since economic growth is essential to expanding home ownership. Second, we need to crack down on predatory lending. And third, we must support minority enterprises and other financial institutions that service minority communities. We must also do more to help low-income APAs get housing assistance, including affordable housing tax credits rental subsidies like Section 8 vouchers.

* Hate Crimes
Hate crimes are anathema in a democratic society. We recently marked the twentieth anniversary of the death of Vincent Chin, a Chinese American who was mistaken for Japanese and tragically beaten to death by unemployed auto workers in Detroit. I strongly support federal legislation to toughen sanctions against hate crimes committed on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, or other minority status. I support the recent bipartisan bill submitted by Senators Kennedy and Hatch in the Senate Judiciary Committee, and I also urge the House leadership to discharge the Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act, which is currently languishing in the Republican Congress.

Asian Pacific Americans have immeasurably contribute to this country and honorably serve under its flag. A Japanese American regimental combat team was the most highly decorated unit of World War II, even though some of their families were interned in concentration camps at the time. There is no better example of patience, courage, and patriotism them then service of those men. I am committed to making sure that APAs voices are heard in my campaign and in my endeavors to create a better America.

[BaiginLong]

source?

[Yeahman]

http://clark04.com/downloads/pdf/Clark04_APA.pdf

[ShortNBitter]

That's really cool... but not to sound like an idiot... who is Wesley Clark?

[ShortNBitter]

Oh hell. Okay I know who he is now. You can stop the laughing at me.

[bluemonq]

correct me if im wrong, but is this the letter clark wrote to 80-20?

[Faithless]

Whatever happened to that thread of Clark making the chinaman reference?

Anyway, here's a thread from another forum, where Clark makes his appology:

http://blog.forclark.com/story/2003/11/25/212254/08

[bluemonq]

my bad, that would be the 80-20 letter

[Proxy]

Clark is a great guy based on what I know about him. His "Chinaman" remark is political correctness gone wrong. Military people are the least discriminatory in all of society bar none. :biggrin:

[ShortNBitter]

Clark is a great guy based on what I know about him. His "Chinaman" remark is political correctness gone wrong. Military people are the least discriminatory in all of society bar none. :biggrin:

I'm not quite sure if that was Sarcasm... but isnt there that Naval base down in Cali where the KKK-activities are like thru the rough. And its all those Marines doing stuff? And then of course prolly 40% (conservative guess) of the rest of America there are KKK peoples too just like hanging out??

[Proxy]

Hi

That was not meant to be sarcastic. Military people are the least discriminatory generally speaking. Statistics indicate over 25% of all military marriages are "interracial" further more the military mainly bases your rank on performance and not on superficial qualities. Hence the commander of all US and coalition forces in Iraq right now is General Ricardo Sanchez, Former Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff General Shinski and Current secretary of state and former Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff Colin Powell is african American.

The KKK was bankrupted by the civil rights lawsuits filed against it. Currently there are ~20 branches of the KKK in the United States with a estimated membership of ~800 (of course I would be willing to bet a good solid 10% of the US population is a fairly strong-very strong racist).

I am not sure about SC racist activities but the lower on the food chain a group is the higher probability of conflict. There are always a few bad apples everywhere.

[>:^|]

Military people are the least discriminatory generally speaking. Statistics indicate over 25% of all military marriages are "interracial" further more the military mainly bases your rank on performance and not on superficial qualities.

Hmmm .... Just a few thoughts here:

- "Don't ask, don't tell"
- Interracial marriage does not prove lack of racism
- The American society claims to be a meritocracy as well

If Clark had any kind of association with Asian Americans, I'd assume he'd know that "Chinaman" is unacceptable.

[golden_buns]

hmm...military ppl the least racist...
Have you been to Itaewon in Seoul, and heard any of the GIs remarks on Koreans?
If that's not racist then I wonder what is

[Faithless]

Clark should drop-out, soon, since he won't make much headway against the other Dems.

Pride might keep him in there.

[kitty]

"skinnys". "gooks". "charlies".

just to name a few slurs that started through military action.

[Banana]

Also, since you're using interracial marriages to prove a lack of racism, I must ask you the following: Out of those marriages, how many of these marriages have a white husband?

BTW: Sorry for dragging this off topic even more but I had to ask since I was faced with one of the most ignorant statements ever.

[kitty]

Also, since you're using interracial marriages to prove a lack of racism, I must ask you the following: Out of those marriages, how many of these marriages have a white husband?


well, i wonder if that's a very valid argument. i mean, the reason why IR relationships have such a high numbers in the military, from what I understand, is because of soldiers who marry someone while being posted at a post overseas. Obviously then, a high number of these will have a white husband -- since the military itself is highly white-dominated as well (and marriages between black soldiers stationed in somewhere in Africa and a black woman doesn't count in our society as interracial, even though it may be intercultural, etc etc)

[Banana]

My main point was that to state that just because the military has many interracial marriages does not mean it is anywhere near racially equally.

Remember, just because a white husband has a colored wife doesn't mean he's not racist. This is just something that some women just don't understand.

A guy can be racist and still screw the women of that particular race he's racist against.

Strom is a perfect example. I recall hearing another story about a Vietnam vet that was married to a Vietnamese woman. They had a mixed kid that just started dating. When she would date white guys, the father wouldn't say anything. However, when she would date Asian guys, he would say things like:

"Asians beat their wives and girlfriends. They eat weeds. They are all short and stupid. Asians smell."

What's funny is that the wife would just sit there and not say anything.

This also explains the whole "I'm not racist, I have a {Insert ethnic race here} girlfriend!"

Doesn't it?

[younggiftedandblack]

I see this thread getting split, but I'll say it anyway. I can see how Proxy came to his conclusion, even though it is somewhat off. People tend to think that there is little racism in the military anymore because of the strict rules put into place to combat it and ensure a fair level playing field.

[contra_diction]

I see where banana is coming from, and, to be honest, I comletely agree. Many many military men do marry Asian women because they are stationed overseas. Also, many of them get divorced when they come back stateside. I don't know what the statistic is on this, though, as this is just from personal observation. Another big issue I've noticed is that military (not just white, but mostly) men, 'acquires a flavor' for Asian women after spending time in Asia. I've seen a lot of guys come from Korea saying how much they love filipina women. Unfortunately, these soldiers, airmen, and seamen are only exposed to a tiny piece of the culture. Actually, most times it's only the culture of the town(s) closest to the base (post) that is geared toward the American military presence. Then, the servicemember forms his stereotypes and develops the fetish. It's really horrible to me. The military (as a whole - not necessarily on Wesley Clark's level) tolerates each other's races, but should not be counted out of racism. They're really terrible about it.

oh, I like Wesley Clark, now. I have to take a look at what his stance on other issues are, though.

[Proxy]

Guys

I certainly did not mean to give the impression that there is no racism in the military. If you read my previous post again, I believe you will find I did not assert that position.

Obviously there is racism everywhere and the military is no exception. General Clark himself is of Jewish descent and his remark "Chinaman" was in reference to Chinese men not to Asian Americans of Chinese descent.

I myself is of Chinese Descent and I personally find nothing wrong with his remark, albiet preferably not using the term "Chinaman". I give him the benefit of the doubt considering the circumstances and context in which that term was used.

As for the US service men (who are of all ethnic backgrounds not just white) and marry young women of where they are stationed, it is simply because of natural hormones combined with love. Of course some of the men marry in order to screw (does this not occur in the US among Americans?). People are people, if a US soldier was stationed in CA is he being exercising a fetish for marrying a American girl?

[kitty]

Remember, just because a white husband has a colored wife doesn't mean he's not racist. This is just something that some women just don't understand.

A guy can be racist and still screw the women of that particular race he's racist against.


well i agree that you can still be racist and date interracially -- i just was wondering what you were trying to say with the 'how many of them are *white men*' question... it goes both ways. doesn't matter what colour the guy or girl is.

[kitty]

As for the US service men (who are of all ethnic backgrounds not just white) and marry young women of where they are stationed, it is simply because of natural hormones combined with love. Of course some of the men marry in order to screw (does this not occur in the US among Americans?). People are people, if a US soldier was stationed in CA is he being exercising a fetish for marrying a American girl?

which is why i don't think the number of IR relationships in the military has *anything* to do with racism in the military.

on the other hand... as i said earlier... a *lot* of popular slang against ethnic groups originated out of the military. mostly because the american men are stationed in places where they are trained to regard those around them as the enemy -- and usually the enemy differs in ethnicity and culture.

'charlie', for example, i think had something to do with short-forms of military terminology for the V.C... or something like that.

... and proxy, the argument that wesley clark's comment was only addressed to people of chinese descent -- frankly, i think that's ridiculous. because a man from china doesn't find it offensive, doesn't mean that the history of the word should not be taken into account. it is offensive to asian americans, *because* it was used negatively towards immigrating chinese from a century ago. just because now he's using a slur to talk to someone else, doesn't mean the people who were origianlly victimized by the word should disregard its use.

[ShortNBitter]

- "Don't ask, don't tell"

That's just what my US History teacher said~!!

[Banana]

I was just pointing out that him using interracial marriage as an example of racism being few and far between in the military was incorrect.

I used white men as an example because they make up the majority of the military.

[Proxy]

Kitty Girl

General Clark was refering the term "Chinaman" to Chinese men, not to Asian Americans of Chinese descent. More over I do not believe General Clark knew it was a term which might offend Asian Americans. Given the context of his answer IE Russian man, French man, China man, I believe in the moment to produce parallel cohesion in his sentence he might have uttered a term held offensive to some Asian Americans. Subsequently General Clark made a personal phone call to apologize for this remark.

I present article which detailes the context in which the term was used and the subsequent reactions by General Clark.

"On 11/03, Gen. Clark was interviewed by The National Public Radio. He said, "I am a fair person.... But if somebody from Russia does something right, or a Chinaman does something right, or even a Frenchman, I'm going to say they did something right. Same thing with the Republicans."

That statement was reported to 80-20 by one of its 650,000 supporters. Although it's obvious from the context that Gen. Clark didn't mean to use "Chinaman" in a negative sense, Woo thought Gen. Clark should know that Chinaman was a derogatory term. Woo, therefore, e-mailed one of Clark's strong Korean Am. supporters, Richard Choi Bertsch, asking him to make the general aware of his faux pas and consider apologizing to the APA community.

To Woo's great surprise, Gen. Clark phoned him at home at 5:40 p.m. yesterday to PERSONALLY DELIVER THE APOLOGY. Such a gesture seems a very positive reflection on Clark's leadership quality."

[Proxy]

Banana

Amalgation is the highest form of assimilation in a society, can you deny racism and all her forms are gradually declining in the United States?

If the increase in intermarriage rates, minority people holding higher positions of power IE Gary Locke, General Shinski, Colin Powell, Condaleeza Rice, Ricardo Sanchez, Wesley Clark, and the general opinion of "races" as a biological notion in the United States has gone down are unworthy to be presented as empirical evidence to indicate a decrease in racism then please submit your valid racism indicators.

If you and Kitty girl believe that the increase in interracial marriage rates do not indicate a negative correlation in racism, then good for you. :biggrin:

[Proxy]

Banana

"I was just pointing out that him using interracial marriage as an example of racism being few and far between in the military was incorrect."

I used the statistics on interracial marriages in the military to indicate that relative to the general population the US military is less racist. I provided statistics on interracial marriges ~25% vs ~3% in the military and general population respectively.

Your accustion that my example of using interracial marriages as an example of racism as being few and far between in the military, holds absolutely no water. Besides being extremely ambiguous, your assertion fails to address the structure of my argument, that is to compare racism in the military relative to the general population. :tongue:

[kitty]

If the increase in intermarriage rates, minority people holding higher positions of power IE Gary Locke, General Shinski, Colin Powell, Condaleeza Rice, Ricardo Sanchez, Wesley Clark, and the general opinion of "races" as a biological notion in the United States has gone down are unworthy to be presented as empirical evidence to indicate a decrease in racism then please submit your valid racism indicators.


most of that is tokenism. what percentage of all 'people in power' are we talking about here? sure, we notice colin powell is black, but we don't really talk about the non-minority people?

just 'cuz there are a few token minorities, does not indicate a decrease in racism. hell, the fact that they are being dragged around like showdogs indicates that racism and sexism is still very much alive.


regarding clark, i don't doubt that he didn't 'mean' it, but he certainly should be held accountable for the negative connotations of the words, unintentional or otherwise. a slur is still offensive to the victims regardless of intention.

[Proxy]

most of that is tokenism. what percentage of all 'people in power' are we talking about here? sure, we notice colin powell is black, but we don't really talk about the non-minority people?

just 'cuz there are a few token minorities, does not indicate a decrease in racism. hell, the fact that they are being dragged around like showdogs indicates that racism and sexism is still very much alive.


regarding clark, i don't doubt that he didn't 'mean' it, but he certainly should be held accountable for the negative connotations of the words, unintentional or otherwise. a slur is still offensive to the victims regardless of intention.


Look up the bios of the above mentioned people to understand they earned their place based on merit and nothing else. Colin Powell Born in Harlem, Graduated ROTC at the top of his class with the highest possiable rank, 2 tours in vietnam where he earned 11 decorations for bravery, MBA from George Washington University, Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff (highest military rank in the military second only to president).

If you believe those people got their places of power based on "tokenism" I urge you to reconsider.

General Clark was made known of his inadverdent use of an offensive term and he held himself responsiable by personally making a apology regarding that statement.

You keep attacking my indicators of racism, I would be willing to bet the vast majority of people in the US society would agree that phsyical almagation and increases of minority power is a good indicator of racist beliefs in the general population. Indicators that you have rejected. please enlighten me kitty girl. I would like to see you present valid indicators to guage the level of racism in the US society.

BTW why dont you start pulling your weight and showing some concrete logical thinking along with hard data to support your assertions rather than making half-effort posts based on anomolies? Using your logic of using anomolous data, we can negate 99.999% of otherwise valid arguments in the real world. IE Death rates go up in pedistrians who stand voluntarily in the way of a moving automobile. Thus it is not a good idea to walk in front of a moving automobile. However using your logic, we can cite a instance of a person who was critically injured yet not killed by the automobile and negate teh conclusion that it is hazardous to one's health by walking in front of a moving automobile. Quite ridiculous no?

[>:^|]

Look up the bios of the above mentioned people to understand they earned their place based on merit and nothing else.

If you believe those people got their places of power based on "tokenism" I urge you to reconsider.

Well, I don't believe that anybody earns his or her position solely on merit. Because I don't believe America is a meritocracy. But in any event, "tokenism" doesn't really have much to do with whether the individuals in question were qualified.

General Clark was made known of his inadverdent use of an offensive term and he held himself responsiable by personally making a apology regarding that statement.

Well, it makes me think he's a dumbass and that he has no association with Asian Americans. I have to give him credit for his statement, although the cynic in me imagined him yelling, "Quick! Research the major concerns of Asian Americans and put together a policy statement!"

By the way, whose Proxy are you? :biggrin:

[Proxy]

Hi

There is no pure meritocracy in the world. IE we are all born with different physical attributes and mental capabilities. Is a 6'2 buff guy with an IQ of 160 going to be able to compete with a mentally retarded midget? Given the circumstances there is no way any society can manage a pure meritocracy, eventually the benefits gleaned by one generation who has recieved genetic blessings will be passed on to their offspring in the form of material wealth, social capital etc, thus a basis of pure meritocracy cannot exsist. (theoritically communism is capable of producing a pure meritocracy) America is relatively one of the most meritocric states in the world.

2nd, people make mistakes, I really don't understand why people are making such a big deal about this. Especially considering the general was trying to be grammatically cohesive in his use of parallelism. Never the less you have the right to your opinion and I fully respect that.

Finally I am Proxy as in derivative (options trader) :biggrin:

[>:^|]

Hi

There is no pure meritocracy in the world. IE we are all born with different physical attributes and mental capabilities. Is a 6'2 buff guy with an IQ of 160 going to be able to compete with a mentally retarded midget? Given the circumstances there is no way any society can manage a pure meritocracy, eventually the benefits gleaned by one generation who has recieved genetic blessings will be passed on to their offspring in the form of material wealth, social capital etc. America is relatively one of the most meritocric states in the world.

Huh?

2nd, people make mistakes, I really don't understand why people are making such a big deal about this. Especially considering the general was trying to be grammatically cohesive in his use of parallism. Never the less you have the right to your opinion and I fully respect that.

Parallel structure would be something like "Russia man, France man, China man," or "Russian man, French man, Chinese man."

[Proxy]

Let assume two men are in the world. A and B. A builds a nice house, garden and husbands wild horses. B is not as strong nor as intelligent as A, he has a tiny shack, no garden and barley manages to survive and produce offspring.

In order for a pure meritocracy to exsist the children of A and B would start on the same playing field. This does not occur because even assuming the children of A and B are genetically comparable in physical strengh and mental capacity, the children of A has an advantage of living in a sheltered enviornment with adequate sources of nutrition whereas the children of B does not.

In the real world a child of a upper class family would have greater access to resources IE better schools, books, private tutors, education, money, etc etc that would give them a advantage as compared to a lower class child. The result is an impure meritocracy even if the standards for success were held the same for both children.

Another example is a racecar competition, one guy owns a porsche, the other owns a used ford taurus, the finish line is the same for both of them. Obviously due to the material advantage of the prosche owner and not purely based on skill will he most likely win the competition. Thus this is not a pure meritocracy.


Parallel structure would be something like "Russia man, France man, China man," or "Russian man, French man, Chinese man."

Did you note the word "trying" in my sentence? :biggrin:

[Craig]

America is relatively one of the most meritocric states in the world.
It's so nice that a 20 year old can talk so much about the fairness of the great society he lives in. I'm sure he must have a solid formal education and years of work experience in diverse environments to back up his claims. Good thing for that, I need to be reminded about the lack of job discrimination in this great country.

Even nicer to see an 'American' tell other people about how things are in the rest of the world.

Especially convincing is the human touch he added by not being able to spell properly; I guess it's a skill he overlooked in his rapid climb to success in such a meritocratic society.

[kitty]

well, proxy, you haven't responded to my continuing examples of most slurs coming out of the military. I also point to other statistics made by studies recently as my indicators of racism -- while it doesn't point to root causes of problems, it points to the existence of some imbalance

(i'm not going to look up these numbers for you since frankly i don't have the time for it), but i'm speaking of the recent study that pointed to an appallingly low representation of hispanics and asian americans in primetime television, as well as the continuingly low representation of african americans -- which includes stereotypical representations.

also, continuing clustering of african americans and hispanics in lower income neighbourhoods and areas which receive poorer education. low representation of these same minority groups in higher education.

we have never had a person of colour or even a female president in the entire history of the united states.

also, the fact that affirmative action (necessarily) continues to exist. I believe in affirmative action as a necessary racial discrimination to combat the much more unbalancing effect of racism, the goal of which is to get our society to a point where affirmative action is no longer needed. But the fact that without affirmative action, we would see even lower numbers of blacks and hispanics in some parts of society speaks volumes of racial inequality in our society.

Let's also discuss the fact that racial profiling, in our airports, at our borders, and among various police forces around the country, is an accepted and even encouraged form of crime prevention.

To me -- these are just a few more telling examples of how racism is very much a thriving force in America, that easily contradict the fact that Colin Powell, token or qualified (or most likely a bit of both) made it into Bush's cabinet.

[kitty]

Well, I don't believe that anybody earns his or her position solely on merit. Because I don't believe America is a meritocracy. But in any event, "tokenism" doesn't really have much to do with whether the individuals in question were qualified.


lol... i agree... my statement is on the extreme. i don't doubt that colin powell is a great house negr... i mean, military guy.

okay, sorry, bad joke. seriously, i'm sure he's very qualified for his job, but i'm certain that his race had much to do with his position. it's certainly affected how people perceive how he's doing. remember the whole comment the media made about how colin was so 'well-spoken'? as if a black man couldn't be anything but a thug?

[Yeahman]

(i'm not going to look up these numbers for you since frankly i don't have the time for it), but i'm speaking of the recent study that pointed to an appallingly low representation of hispanics and asian americans in primetime television, as well as the continuingly low representation of african americans -- which includes stereotypical representations.
You don't get the UPN channel (aka BET2) or something?

And there is no market for Hispanic or Asian American shows. There's that crappy new Hispanic sitcom. We've tried the Asian American sitcom. Hispanics watch Telemundo and Asian Americans that watch the major networks are such a small demographic. And Asian Americans are so hypersensative about how they are portrayed in the media that they'll critisize any Asian American show until it's canceled.

[Yeahman]

lol... i agree... my statement is on the extreme. i don't doubt that colin powell is a great house negr... i mean, military guy.

okay, sorry, bad joke. seriously, i'm sure he's very qualified for his job, but i'm certain that his race had much to do with his position. it's certainly affected how people perceive how he's doing. remember the whole comment the media made about how colin was so 'well-spoken'? as if a black man couldn't be anything but a thug?
Colin Powell is black?!

Anyway there aren't that many people with Powell's qualifications so no I don't think race had anything to do with his position.

[kitty]

You don't get the UPN channel (aka BET2) or something?

And there is no market for Hispanic or Asian American shows. There's that crappy new Hispanic sitcom. We've tried the Asian American sitcom. Hispanics watch Telemundo and Asian Americans that watch the major networks are such a small demographic. And Asian Americans are so hypersensative about how they are portrayed in the media that they'll critisize any Asian American show until it's canceled.

uh. huh.

UPN and BET both portray african americans as either thugs, rappers, or somehow lower class, uneducated, and glorifying the street life. there are relatively few african american programs that cater towards a black middle class or are positive representations.

And the reason there may not be a 'market' for Hispanic or Asian American show is because they haven't done enough market research to find it. Are you trying to tell me that Hispanics or Asian Americans don't watch tv? :rolleyes:

that's a pretty big generalization you're making up there.

and incidentally, i wasn't talking about networks. that is obviously a problem, but i was talking about characters of colour on popular tv shows. such as friends. ER. etc etc etc ... are you going to make me dig up that study?

[Banana]

Did you mean amalgamation?

American society may be more tolerant of colored folks but it doesn’t really mean that racism is any less prevalent than it was 30 or 40 years ago. Just because you don’t face blatent racism or discrimination doesn’t mean that it hasn’t been pushed underground. Having many white friends to act like spies on all white gatherings, he hears and witnesses many racist remarks regarding people of color when they’re not present. The same applies to job discrimination. Just because someone doesn’t come up to my face and say “We don’t like Chinese people to hold management positions” doesn’t mean he can’t find excuses in my resume for me not to qualify.

People nowadays just aren’t as blatent as they used to be. To believe that racism has gone down tenfold is something I choose not to believe because I have not received proof otherwise.

I’ll agree that racism, as a whole, in this country has gone down after the civil rights movement but it’s not as much as you think.

Regarding interracial marriage and them having a negative correlation in racism, I already issued an example and I hear about it often with me working in my college’s student development center. I already issued an example with Strom. Apparently, he cut off racial discrimination when his dick was involved.

Like Kitty stated, a big factor as to why the US military has so many personnel involved in interracial marriages is because they’re usually stationed in “colored” nations and after about 4 years, colored women start to look pretty good even if you are racist. I would also like to ask how many of those personnel are white women, just out of curiosity.

My sole problem is not what you said. You never said that interracial marriages PROVED, without a doubt, that racism in the US military is less than the general US population. My problem is what you implied.

[Banana]

I think we should get back on topic.

Do I think McCain is racist? No.

Do I think Clark is racist? No.

[Yeahman]

uh. huh.

UPN and BET both portray african americans as either thugs, rappers, or somehow lower class, uneducated, and glorifying the street life. there are relatively few african american programs that cater towards a black middle class or are positive representations.
UPN does. UPN has a bunch of shows about blacks living in upper-class suburbs or with high-income jobs. They did it to fight the stereotypical black image and tap into the Cosby phenomena but I guess someone forgot to tell them to add the humor.

And the reason there may not be a 'market' for Hispanic or Asian American show is because they haven't done enough market research to find it. Are you trying to tell me that Hispanics or Asian Americans don't watch tv? :rolleyes:?
What percentage of the primetime audience is 18-34 year old English-speaking Asian Americans?

and incidentally, i wasn't talking about networks. that is obviously a problem, but i was talking about characters of colour on popular tv shows. such as friends. ER. etc etc etc ... are you going to make me dig up that study?
Oh OK. Yeah, there are no minorities on Friends. I don't know what part of New York City they're supposed to be living in. That is a problem. At least there are some Asian women that make guest appearances and there was Lucy Liu on Ally McBeal. We Asian guys didn't make a non-Kung-Fu related TV appearance since 21 Jump Street.

[kitty]

UPN does. UPN has a bunch of shows about blacks living in upper-class suburbs or with high-income jobs. They did it to fight the stereotypical black image and tap into the Cosby phenomena but I guess someone forgot to tell them to add the humor.


yeah. where's the hispanic or asian equivalent? and how much of these programming is about 'acting the fool' for white audiences? i.e.... who makes this programming? i hate to be all FUBU about this, but the reason why it's bad may be because it's still a white ideal of what black middle class finds funny.


What percentage of the primetime audience is 18-34 year old English-speaking Asian Americans?


what percentage of asian americans doesn't watch primetime tv because they are not represented in it?

it goes both ways.

but yes. back on topic. no one has addressed my other concerns.

[Yeahman]

yeah. where's the hispanic or asian equivalent? and how much of these programming is about 'acting the fool' for white audiences? i.e.... who makes this programming? i hate to be all FUBU about this, but the reason why it's bad may be because it's still a white ideal of what black middle class finds funny.
The Hispanic equivelent is the George Lopez show and the Asian equivelent was the All American Girl.
All these shows are probably written by old white executives following the Cosby formula.
Blacks are in a position where they can break out of that wholesome family sitcom crap. In fact they did. Martin was hugely successful. They need more of that. And I would love to see Hispanic and Asian American shows like that.

what percentage of asian americans doesn't watch primetime tv because they are not represented in it?
A very small percentage, I would suspect. How long did All American Girl last?

[kitty]

edit: i hadn't seen all american girl, but here's a comment another article made:


Previous attempts by networks to "target" the Asian audience have failed. "All American Girl", a 1994 sitcom starring Margret Cho, was severely criticized by Asian Americans for its portrayal of Korean American family life. White producers attempted to make a comedy out of the immigrant experience, and it was a resounding failure. Was the failure caused by the show’s focus on being "Asian?" Can’t Asians be depicted as "normal" people, just like the white characters are? Can’t they be cast in non race-specific roles?


i think the problem was the margaret cho's family on the show was like hyper-koreanized for a white audience... that it exoticized and poked fun at the korean immigrant experience, rather than sharing a laugh with that community.

asian americans are something like 4% of the american population. if you compare the ratings to something that attracts a white audience in large numbers, obviously there's no competition, but does that mean that minorities don't rate decent media representation?

and seriously... why are you generalizing the existence or not of a minority audience on the success of *one* show?

and this doesn't get at the *heart* of my point which is that racism is very much alive and potent.

[BaiginLong]

i know racism is prevalent in media but come on ppl
tell me how many of you really want to push this issue and watch it end up with another negative image of Asians permanently engrained onto television
we're lingering very close to making asians the Kung fu kids or the study freaks or something else
it's better that we shy away from this instead of demanding representation and in the efforts to gain ratings, stuff ourselves into some niche we can't get out of gracefully
kitty you mentioned BET right
you want an AET?
I sure don't

I'm not happy with this gap in representation but at least this way we don't make a joke out of ourselves as entertainers
the occasional appearance is fine with me unless you can think of a better plan than sitcoms and action dramas

[kitty]

so let's just be happy with our current complete lack of representation?

forgive me if i just roll my eyes.

do i want an AET? no, because i think BET does nothing but exacerbate the problem. let us not forget that BET, too, is white-owned and operated. But, do I want a network that can positively represent asians in media? Say, ImaginAsian, which I hear is a new network that will be catering to Asian Americans.

(http://www.imaginasiantv.com/, from the website, my only gripe is that it thinks that importing asian shows will cater to asian americans, rather than creating asian american targetted programming, but who can blame a fledgling network?)

I have high hopes that this network will actually bring attention to the starved asian american audience, as well as help to combat the idea that asian americans are nothing but kung fu boys and dragon ladies. baiginlong, if you want to be happy being the buttmonkey of media execs, be my guest.

personally, i dream of something better.

[Yeahman]

There were lots of Asian Americans hostile to All American Girl. I find that to be a major obstacle in Asian American progress in the media. We're in no position to be picky. It's not like it was a racist show or anything.

4% of the population? 2% of which speak fluent English? 1% of which is in the 18-34 age group? Hardly makes business sense to target them. Now it wouldn't hurt to cast Asian Americans despite the almost non-existent Asian American audience in roles like that of Lucy Lui in Ally McBeal. In fact I would love to see more of that. But unfortunately we don't have the numbers to justify a show catering to Asian Americans.

We need more Asian American comedians too. There's less of a barrier to entry in that industry and it opens up greater opportunities. We only have 1 well-known Asian American comedian; Margaret Cho. Dat Phan's 15 minutes of unfunny fame doesn't count.

And yes racism is still alive and potent though it's more covert now.
Back to the topic...
It would be really stupid to hold Clark's "Chinaman" comment against him especially after he apologized. I bet any of the other candidates could have made the same mistake.
The fact is that Clark is the only one to have verbally pledged to fight discrimination against Asian Americans.
I doubt any of the candidates have had any significant exposure to Asian Americans so even Clark's mentioning of Asian Americans is a good sign.

[hooligan]

just throwing this in but i heard that W. hasn't really issued any official/unofficial letters to the AAPI community. no one representing AAPIs knows what he thinks about our peoples.

[Tao]

i don't know why yellow's supporting clark to begin with, despite what he said about asians. Clark is such an opportunist that he flip flopped on the iraq issue several times before taking his "stance" agaist the war. When bush first proposed the war, clark's head was so far up bubba's ass that his nose was brown. Fuck Clark...fuck him in the asshole with a big rubber dick.

[kitty]

There were lots of Asian Americans hostile to All American Girl. I find that to be a major obstacle in Asian American progress in the media. We're in no position to be picky. It's not like it was a racist show or anything.


let's just take whatever bone the white people throw at us? if that's your stance then i think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

i think we are in the exact position to be picky. we want fair representation -- that means we should have some say in it. margaret cho had no creative control over the show that she was starring in -- that was based in part on her comedy. Now if that isn't the white mainstream patronizing its people of colour i don't know what is.

we aren't dogs that should be content with being kicked by those in power. that smacks of buying into the racial hierarchy bullshit that oppresses minorities in the US of A in the first place.

and incidentally, that 4% may look small, but numerically, it is massive (i.e., 4% of a billion is still 40 million). and it is definitely an untapped market, meaning its potential capital, if anyone ever learned to use it.


It would be really stupid to hold Clark's "Chinaman" comment against him especially after he apologized. I bet any of the other candidates could have made the same mistake.
The fact is that Clark is the only one to have verbally pledged to fight discrimination against Asian Americans.
I doubt any of the candidates have had any significant exposure to Asian Americans so even Clark's mentioning of Asian Americans is a good sign.

I have nothing against clark except that the gaff was made. show's that someone isn't as entrenched in this topic as one would like.

i do have a little problem with the statement that the military isn't racist or that asians should put up or shut up as far as white programming.

[Proxy]

Banana

"My sole problem is not what you said. You never said that interracial marriages PROVED, without a doubt, that racism in the US military is less than the general US population. My problem is what you implied."

I can't help on how you INTERPRET my posts. Also thanks for bashing me for statements I never made. :wink:


Craig

I didn't bother to do a spell check. I admit, my spelling in the age of windows word spell checker is horriable.

I won't bother with the rest of your worthless post filled with personal attacks.

[Proxy]

Kitty girl

I don't know what you want me to say regarding the military racial slurs. Viet Cong or VC was coined for the communist vietnamese forces. In the military alphabet V - victor and C - Charles, so VC came out to be victor charles and later shortened to charlie. "gook" another term came during the korean war. Han Gook was the korean term for Korea. The GI's picked up on the term and started refering to the north korean troops as gooks. As for the other racial terms, some are self explanatory and others are irrelevent to this discussion.

I said relative to the general population the military is less racist. How hard is that to understand? Why do you keep trying to prove their is racism in the general population and in the military? Did I argue there was no racism?

Where is the indicators of racism that you deem valid?

[kitty]

I can't help on how you INTERPRET my posts.



Yes you can. you can word your arguments to be beyond ambiguous interpretation. the way you structured your post, you pretty much said that the instances of IR relationship meant the military wasn't racist. it wasn't that far of a stretch: you followed a sentence about the lack of racism in the military with a sentence about the number of IR relationships. one assumes you were making a cause and effect type of argument. otherwise, your bringing up of the IR relationship stat would be wholly irrelevant.

edit: here is what you said. it doesn't seem at all ambiguous to me.

. Military people are the least discriminatory generally speaking. Statistics indicate over 25% of all military marriages are "interracial"

it seems pretty much obvious you are saying: military isn't discriminatory. here's a stat of how many IR marriages there are to prove it.


Craig

I didn't bother to do a spell check. I admit, my spelling in the age of windows word spell checker is horriable.

I won't bother with the rest of your worthless post filled with personal attacks.

*looks at Craig's post*

*steps into mod shoes*

I don't see a personal attack. Flaming isn't allowed, but please point out where you feel Craig attacked you.

It's so nice that a 20 year old can talk so much about the fairness of the great society he lives in. I'm sure he must have a solid formal education and years of work experience in diverse environments to back up his claims. Good thing for that, I need to be reminded about the lack of job discrimination in this great country.

Even nicer to see an 'American' tell other people about how things are in the rest of the world.

Especially convincing is the human touch he added by not being able to spell properly; I guess it's a skill he overlooked in his rapid climb to success in such a meritocratic society.


I thought he was pointing out that you, as a privileged young American, cannot with expertise or confidence relate the conditions of other cultures globally, unless there's something about yourself that we do not know.

It doesn't seem to be a flame to me.

[golden_buns]

I won't bother with the rest of your worthless post filled with personal attacks.

I don't think Craig was the only one who found your views a bit naive

[hooligan]

"gook" another term came during the korean war. Han Gook was the korean term for Korea. The GI's picked up on the term and started refering to the north korean troops as gooks. As for the other racial terms, some are self explanatory and others are irrelevent to this discussion.
gook was actually used by the american soldiers to describe the filipino fighters during the war in the philippines in the 1920s. gook was once again used by americans soldiers in the korean war when koreans would say mi gook to describe themselves. it's a pattern of racism.

[Yeahman]

i don't know why yellow's supporting clark to begin with, despite what he said about asians. Clark is such an opportunist that he flip flopped on the iraq issue several times before taking his "stance" agaist the war. When bush first proposed the war, clark's head was so far up bubba's ass that his nose was brown. Fuck Clark...fuck him in the asshole with a big rubber dick.
Quotes from Clark BEFORE the war...
"He does not have the weapons now as best we can determine."

"I haven't seen any substantial evidence linking Saddam's regime to the Al Qaida network"

"We should not be using force until the personnel, the organizations, the plans that will be required for post conflict Iraq are prepared and ready. This includes dealing with requirements for humanitarian assistance, police and judicial capabilities, emergency medical and reconstruction assistance and preparations for a transitional governing body and eventual elections, perhaps even including a new constitution.
Ideally, the international/multinational organizations will participate in the readying of such post conflict operations, the United Nations, NATO, other regional organization, Islamic organizations, but we have no idea how long this campaign could last, and if it were to go like the campaign against the Afghans, against the Taliban in which suddenly the Taliban collapsed and there we were.
We need to be ready because if suddenly Saddam Hussein's government collapses and we don't have everything ready to go, we're going to have chaos in that region."

"So, all that having been said, the option to use force must remain on the table. It should be used as the last resort after all diplomatic means have been exhausted unless there's information that indicates that a further delay would represent an immediate risk to the assembled forces and organizations. And, I want to underscore that I think the United States should not categorize this action as preemptive."

"The honest truth is that the absence of intelligence is not an adequate reason to go forward to war in and of itself, and so what we have to do is we have to build a program that builds, that encourages other nations to share our perspective. We can do it relatively quickly. We should not discard inspections. They have done some measure of good, otherwise Saddam wouldn't object to them so strongly."

"But I will say this, that the administration has not proceeded heretofore in a way that would encourage its friends and allies to support it. One of the problems we have is the overhang from a number of decisions taken by the administration which have undercut its friends and allies around the world and given the impression that the United States doesn't respect the opinions of other."

"I think it will be more effective and more useful and I think it's more in keeping with the checks and balances that are the hallmark of the American government if that resolution is narrowed.
And on the other hand, I think you have to narrow it in such a way that you don't remove the resort to force as a last option consideration in this case. So, not giving a blank check but expressing an intent to sign the check when all other alternatives are exhausted."

"I hope that we're starting to do that in a very, very serious way but there are a number of steps that have to be taken first, like engaging international organizations and the U.N. and trying to build a framework because we don't want to put the United States armed forces if it takes I don't know how many, 50,000, 70,000 initially.
We don't want a bunch of young men in battle dress uniforms out there indefinitely trying to perform humanitarian assistance. That's not our job. We're not very good at it. We're also not any good at police work."

[Proxy]

I never said there was no job discrimniation. In fact my post about meritocracy supports the notion that we do not compete equally. Keep making stuff up....................... :biggrin:

[kitty]

Kitty girl

I don't know what you want me to say regarding the military racial slurs. Viet Cong or VC was coined for the communist vietnamese forces. In the military alphabet V - victor and C - Charles, so VC came out to be victor charles and later shortened to charlie. "gook" another term came during the korean war. Han Gook was the korean term for Korea. The GI's picked up on the term and started refering to the north korean troops as gooks. As for the other racial terms, some are self explanatory and others are irrelevent to this discussion.


Yes, and they were used derogatorily to refer to people of Asian descent in America here. That implies a negative connotation with those words as they were being used, when they originated. They weren't calling the enemy 'gook' out of love, were they?


I said relative to the general population the military is less racist. How hard is that to understand? Why do you keep trying to prove their is racism in the general population and in the military? Did I argue there was no racism?


Because you made the statement that

Amalgation is the highest form of assimilation in a society, can you deny racism and all her forms are gradually declining in the United States?

If the increase in intermarriage rates, minority people holding higher positions of power IE Gary Locke, General Shinski, Colin Powell, Condaleeza Rice, Ricardo Sanchez, Wesley Clark, and the general opinion of "races" as a biological notion in the United States has gone down are unworthy to be presented as empirical evidence to indicate a decrease in racism then please submit your valid racism indicators.


And I argue wholeheartedly that racism is *not* declining. It's simply becoming institutionalized.

Where is the indicators of racism that you deem valid?

See my post a page back.

[kitty]

i don't know why yellow's supporting clark to begin with, despite what he said about asians. Clark is such an opportunist that he flip flopped on the iraq issue several times before taking his "stance" agaist the war. When bush first proposed the war, clark's head was so far up bubba's ass that his nose was brown. Fuck Clark...fuck him in the asshole with a big rubber dick.

wow... you have a very vivid imagination...

it's kinda kinky. and grotesque. all at the same time :)

[hooligan]

And I argue wholeheartedly that racism is *not* declining. It's simply becoming institutionalized.
word

[kitty]

gook was actually used by the american soldiers to describe the filipino fighters during the war in the philippines in the 1920s. gook was once again used by americans soldiers in the korean war when koreans would say mi gook to describe themselves. it's a pattern of racism.

i don't speak korean, but i thought 'mi gook' meant 'american', but the americans were mocking them, thinking they were saying "me, gook".

[hooligan]

i don't speak korean, but i thought 'mi gook' meant 'american', but the americans were mocking them, thinking they were saying "me, gook".
whoops what you said haha. han gook is korean, mi gook is american. sorry to all the koreans i've offended.

[>:^|]

I think we should get back on topic.

Do I think McCain is racist? No.

Do I think Clark is racist? No.

I think the word "racist" is problematic because it implies the sum of the person's identity. People are much more comfortable limiting the use of the word "racist" to members of the KKK and ignoring or excusing racism from "good" people.

McCain freely used (and defended his right to) the word "gook." The media, many of them happily touring along with him, never bothered to call him on it. It was a part of his regular vocabulary. What does that say about the man?

Clark's situation is different. He's got a one-time usage of a derogatory term in a more neutral context. However, he does seem to be trying to convince us of his openmindedness. But just the fact that he was unaware that this term is racist suggests to me that he has very little contact with Asian Americans and that he had not really thought about what the term implies.

[Yeahman]

let's just take whatever bone the white people throw at us? if that's your stance then i think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

i think we are in the exact position to be picky. we want fair representation -- that means we should have some say in it. margaret cho had no creative control over the show that she was starring in -- that was based in part on her comedy. Now if that isn't the white mainstream patronizing its people of colour i don't know what is.

we aren't dogs that should be content with being kicked by those in power. that smacks of buying into the racial hierarchy bullshit that oppresses minorities in the US of A in the first place.
Puhahaha
The problem with many Asian Americans is that they're so hypersensative that they won't be happy with ANY Asian American portrayal in the media.
Like I said, All American Girl wasn't racist against Asians. I would be opposed to such a representation. But what many Asian Americans were complaining about at the time was not that Margaret Cho didn't get enough creative license but that she and the show were embarrassments to the Asian American community.
And in the end we lose out.
The Asian American community says they want progress in the media. But when it comes along, they immediately critisize it. Everything's a stereotype to them. They won't be satisfied until there are no Asians in the media and they're reduced to whining about how there're no Asians in the media.

[kitty]

I think the word "racist" is problematic because it implies the sum of the person's identity. People are much more comfortable limiting the use of the word "racist" to members of the KKK and ignoring or excusing racism from "good" people.

McCain freely used (and defended his right to) the word "gook." The media, many of them happily touring along with him, never bothered to call him on it. It was a part of his regular vocabulary. What does that say about the man?

Clark's situation is different. He's got a one-time usage of a derogatory term in a more neutral context. However, he does seem to be trying to convince us of his openmindedness. But just the fact that he was unaware that this term is racist suggests to me that he has very little contact with Asian Americans and that he had not really thought about what the term implies.

agreed, and very good, tempered post btw. like i mentioned, i don't think clark is a bad man, and i even hope he beats dean and others to get the dem nomination (mostly 'cuz i dislike dean).

i do think it cheapens what this whole thread was about in the first place -- his open letter to asian americans, if he doesn't know the history of asians. if he needed someone to tell him about the word 'chinaman' and why it is derogatory, i have little faith that he knows much about the other issues he's talking about. but again, it's merely a gaff, and no real indicator of his character.

[kitty]

Puhahaha
The problem with many Asian Americans is that they're so hypersensative that they won't be happy with ANY Asian American portrayal in the media.
Like I said, All American Girl wasn't racist against Asians. I would be opposed to such a representation. But what many Asian Americans were complaining about at the time was not that Margaret Cho didn't get enough creative license but that she and the show were embarrassments to the Asian American community.
And in the end we lose out.
The Asian American community says they want progress in the media. But when it comes along, they immediately critisize it. Everything's a stereotype to them. They won't be satisfied until there are no Asians in the media and they're reduced to whining about how there're no Asians in the media.

is it so difficult for you to imagine that there might be such a thing as a positive asian american media representation?

it does exist. b.d. wong in oz is one for me -- a non-racialized character who still deals with being asian without resembling a live action, yellow-skinned, bucktoothed caricature.

ming na wen in ER wasn't too bad either, because for the most part she was just a doctor.

the problem is that too many producers think that they need to write an "Asian" character to increase Asian representation, but when in reality, they simply need to realize that it's possible to cast a non-white character in a non-race specific role. would it have been a crime to have a black or asian rachel or chandler?

[BaiginLong]

Puhahaha
The problem with many Asian Americans is that they're so hypersensative that they won't be happy with ANY Asian American portrayal in the media.
Like I said, All American Girl wasn't racist against Asians. I would be opposed to such a representation. But what many Asian Americans were complaining about at the time was not that Margaret Cho didn't get enough creative license but that she and the show were embarrassments to the Asian American community.
And in the end we lose out.
The Asian American community says they want progress in the media. But when it comes along, they immediately critisize it. Everything's a stereotype to them. They won't be satisfied until there are no Asians in the media and they're reduced to whining about how there're no Asians in the media.
that is true to an extent but still
we can't take the exact opposite direction and let everything slide
it's all about moderation and finding a logical solution
here's an idea: why don't we stop complaining and think up some solutions instead?
anyone with me?

[Banana]

Also thanks for bashing me for statements I never made.

Thanks for not actually reading my post. I stated that you never made such statements that you were being ragged on for. I gave you credit but you chose not to take it.

McCain freely used (and defended his right to) the word "gook." The media, many of them happily touring along with him, never bothered to call him on it. It was a part of his regular vocabulary. What does that say about the man?

Clark's situation is different. He's got a one-time usage of a derogatory term in a more neutral context. However, he does seem to be trying to convince us of his openmindedness. But just the fact that he was unaware that this term is racist suggests to me that he has very little contact with Asian Americans and that he had not really thought about what the term implies.

I agree with you on your analysis of Clark.

However, with McCain, I have a different analysis of the man. While I agree that his usage of the term "gook" was wrong, I do understand what he means when he gives the following explanation. Basically, he said that he only refers to the VC that tortured him and his friends as "gooks" whilst normal Vietnamese people are referred to "Vietnamese." I remember Chris Rock's standup skit about the difference between blacks and niggers.

Basically, Rock seperates them both into 2 very different catagories. One group is good while the other is bad. I believe McCain doesn't hate Vietnamese and Asians in general. Nor do I think he's a racist. McCain was actually the frontrunner to stop American protection of the catfish industry that was screwing Vietnam.

The only problem I have with McCain is that he never apologized until his advisors warned that he couldn't win 2 prize states (California and New York, which he lost) until he stopped using the term. He finally apologized but by that time it was too late.

He only apologized when he was about to lose those states. That's the only problem I have with him. Other than that, personally, I don't believe he's racist at all.

[Tao]

Basically, he said that he only refers to the VC that tortured him and his friends as "gooks" whilst normal Vietnamese people are referred to "Vietnamese."

how does that not register as hypocitical in your mind?

What? America can spread napalm and agent orange on VC villages, but if they just happen to fight back, you'd have no other choice but to call them gook? Hell man, he needs to realize he wasn't doing anyone any "favors" by killing 5 year olds.

[Proxy]

Banana

I read your post. You simply decided to bash what I implied.

All dogs walk on four legs
Alfred walks on four legs
possiable implications: Alfred is a dog.

Well is it true? possiable but alfred can also be a cow, pig, horse etc etc.

I cannot be held responsiable on how you interpreted my posts because I do not know your underlying assumptions.



Kitty girl

You are saying racism did not decrease but simply has been institutionalized.

May I ask on what basis you have come to this conclusion? Also please give specific examples preferable backed with numerical facts and figures.

[kitty]

how does that not register as hypocitical in your mind?

What? America can spread napalm and agent orange on VC villages, but if they just happen to fight back, you'd have no other choice but to call them gook? Hell man, he needs to realize he wasn't doing anyone any "favors" by killing 5 year olds.

completely off topic but... napalm kills. it's evil. i recently saw "we were soldiers" and there's a whole scene when some americans get napalmed by accident. it is so messed up... there's a japanese american whose flesh just falls off and... ew ew ew....

(and then part of me is like, of course, they had to napalm one of the only two asian people shown in the army in that movie....) :p

but yes. i agree. it is hypocritical.

[hooligan]

Kitty girl

You are saying racism did not decrease but simply has been institutionalized.

May I ask on what basis you have come to this conclusion? Also please give specific examples preferable backed with numerical facts and figures.
you've just gotta do a lot of reading. there's a lot of material out there discussing institutionalized racism. and a lot of institutionalized racism hasn't been proven because it's so fucking hard TO prove the existence of it, but ask anyone who's been a victim of institutionalized racism, it exists.

[kitty]

Kitty girl

You are saying racism did not decrease but simply has been institutionalized.

May I ask on what basis you have come to this conclusion? Also please give specific examples preferable backed with numerical facts and figures.

http://forums.yellowworld.org/showpost.php?p=224385&postcount=36

I work for a living. I don't have time to find the numbers. Google search or check the census website for exact figures.

oh, and look to the bottom right hand corner of each post. see the reply button? you can *use* it to quote a post and reply to it :)

[hooligan]

for starters, read about nakanishi's tenure case at ucla.

[Tao]

completely off topic but... napalm kills. it's evil. i recently saw "we were soldiers" and there's a whole scene when some americans get napalmed by accident. it is so messed up... there's a japanese american whose flesh just falls off and... ew ew ew....

(and then part of me is like, of course, they had to napalm one of the only two asian people shown in the army in that movie....) :p

but yes. i agree. it is hypocritical.


not to mention, kids who are born in areas that were heavily exposed to napalm and agent orange all suffer from birth defects.

McCain can fuck his self-righteous ass with a big rubber dick

[Banana]

Proxy, whatever floats your boat, guy. Take it how you want to. I just didn't like the fact that interracial dating/marriage was compared to less racism in the military.

how does that not register as hypocitical in your mind?

What? America can spread napalm and agent orange on VC villages, but if they just happen to fight back, you'd have no other choice but to call them gook? Hell man, he needs to realize he wasn't doing anyone any "favors" by killing 5 year olds.

Well, I view it hypocritical if he said that the VC weren't entitled to call whites "Hairy Albino monkeys." Rock's skit makes it perfectly clear to me how McCain viewed the situation between "gook" and "Vietnamese." I guess it was his way of seperating the bad Vietnamese and the good Vietnamese. The bad ones were called gooks while the good ones were called Vietnamese.

"That spic stole my bike!" "That Latino guy works hard to save money for his kid's education."

He's using one word to refer to "bad" and another to refer to "good" without using the words "good" & "bad."

[kitty]

not to mention, kids who are born in areas that were heavily exposed to napalm and agent orange all suffer from birth defects.

McCain can fuck his self-righteous ass with a big rubber dick


if i had been your secret santa, i woulda bought you a gigantic, 12" soft rubber dong. you seem to have an odd fascination with dildos.

[Proxy]

Kitty girl

Then don't expect me to do your homework for you. If you don't want to take the time to support your opinions then don't post. Don't ask for me for facts and figures and then dismiss it when asked to present your own reasoning.

Hooligan

I am not saying there is no institutional discrimination. I am saying racism has gone down in the US and that it has not simply shifted to institutions.

[Banana]

So, you're hinting that the term "glass ceiling" is just a figment of the colored person's imagination?

[hooligan]

Kitty girl

Then don't expect me to do your homework for you. If you don't want to take the time to support your opinions then don't post. Don't ask for me for facts and figures and then dismiss it when asked to present your own reasoning.

Hooligan

I am not saying there is no institutional discrimination. I am saying racism has not gone down in the US and that it has not simply shifted to institutions.
after 9/11 there's been a resurgance in south asian discrimination/racism. racism has NOT gone down, it's just taking a new form.

to your kittygirl's comment, it's hard to find statistics and a lot of it isn't online. you need to do your reading.

[Tao]

Proxy, whatever floats your boat, guy. Take it how you want to. I just didn't like the fact that interracial dating/marriage was compared to less racism in the military.



Well, I view it hypocritical if he said that the VC weren't entitled to call whites "Hairy Albino monkeys." Rock's skit makes it perfectly clear to me how McCain viewed the situation between "gook" and "Vietnamese." I guess it was his way of seperating the bad Vietnamese and the good Vietnamese. The bad ones were called gooks while the good ones were called Vietnamese.

"That spic stole my bike!" "That Latino guy works hard to save money for his kid's education."

He's using one word to refer to "bad" and another to refer to "good" without using the words "good" & "bad."

that's my point...why is he "good"? that word is SO subjective when talked about in context of the vietnam war.

hell asia had a communist thing going. Now i'm not gonna say whether that was "good" or "bad"...because in truth it doesn't matter. What matters is that the native people themselves have to work it out. That means no outside interferences.

And so mccain wants to impose his lofty well to do first world views on a third world country like vietnam? give me a fucking break. Talk about pretentious, talk about egotistical. McCain's fucking immature if he thinks in terms of "good" and "bad"

[Proxy]

So, you're hinting that the term "glass ceiling" is just a figment of the colored person's imagination?

No - is my answer clear enough?

[kitty]

Proxy, whatever floats your boat, guy. Take it how you want to. I just didn't like the fact that interracial dating/marriage was compared to less racism in the military.



Well, I view it hypocritical if he said that the VC weren't entitled to call whites "Hairy Albino monkeys." Rock's skit makes it perfectly clear to me how McCain viewed the situation between "gook" and "Vietnamese." I guess it was his way of seperating the bad Vietnamese and the good Vietnamese. The bad ones were called gooks while the good ones were called Vietnamese.

"That spic stole my bike!" "That Latino guy works hard to save money for his kid's education."

He's using one word to refer to "bad" and another to refer to "good" without using the words "good" & "bad."

that argument implies that there is something inantely bad with the 'bad' kind of a race. like 'niggers' do certain bad things because they are black. and 'spics' will steal your bike because they are *bad* hispanics.

either way, you're still devolving people to their race, and categorizing as such. hence, racist.

(i'm not being very articulate here... did that make sense?)

rock is making an extremely un-PC joke, that works because of his audience and because he is, in a sense, poking fun at the stereotype of African Americans rather than a specific group of African Americans. Either way, I see that as 'insider' humour that I'd rather not appropriate as a strict description of African American culture.

[kitty]

Kitty girl

Then don't expect me to do your homework for you. If you don't want to take the time to support your opinions then don't post. Don't ask for me for facts and figures and then dismiss it when asked to present your own reasoning.


I never asked you for facts and figures. I merely argued with the facts and figures you willingly provided.

Are you arguing that racial profiling does *not* exist? That there aren't high numbers of blacks and latinos in the lower class? That there really *was* a black and female president?

I recently went to the American History museum and checked out their exhibit on the American presidency. I guess *they* musta missed her too.

if you want facts and figures you can check those out. meanwhile, I would like to see your take on racial profiling, which doesn't need a fact or figure. It is happening, plain and simple.

The rest, if you want a number, I'll find it. When I get off work.


I am not saying there is no institutional discrimination. I am saying racism has not gone down in the US and that it has not simply shifted to institutions.

funny, I coulda sworn you were arguing that racism had gone down.

[Banana]

that's my point...why is he "good"? that word is SO subjective when talked about in context of the vietnam war.

hell asia had a communist thing going. Now i'm not gonna say whether that was "good" or "bad"...because in truth it doesn't matter. What matters is that the native people themselves have to work it out. That means no outside interferences.

And so mccain wants to impose his lofty well to do first world views on a third world country like vietnam? give me a fucking break. Talk about pretentious, talk about egotistical. McCain's fucking immature if he thinks in terms of "good" and "bad"

I think you're going too far into the politics of the Vietnam War. I'm just talking about a term that has a negative connotation and him using it as a negative connotation. Instead of saying "bad Vietnamese person," he just says gook and instead of saying "good Vietnamese person," he just says "Vietnamese."

I think he's trying to use a racial slur to describe only the bad Vietnamese.

[Proxy]

Kitty girl

Don't try to take this off topic. Also it was a typo I meant to say "I believe racism has gone down".

Why do you ask me irrelevent questions?

Did you eat mac n cheese with a black guy last night?
Do you have a south east African gay female friend?

[kitty]

that's my point...why is he "good"? that word is SO subjective when talked about in context of the vietnam war.

hell asia had a communist thing going. Now i'm not gonna say whether that was "good" or "bad"...because in truth it doesn't matter. What matters is that the native people themselves have to work it out. That means no outside interferences.

And so mccain wants to impose his lofty well to do first world views on a third world country like vietnam? give me a fucking break. Talk about pretentious, talk about egotistical. McCain's fucking immature if he thinks in terms of "good" and "bad"

our president was going after the 'evildoers', don't forget.

[Yeahman]

is it so difficult for you to imagine that there might be such a thing as a positive asian american media representation?

it does exist. b.d. wong in oz is one for me -- a non-racialized character who still deals with being asian without resembling a live action, yellow-skinned, bucktoothed caricature.

ming na wen in ER wasn't too bad either, because for the most part she was just a doctor.

the problem is that too many producers think that they need to write an "Asian" character to increase Asian representation, but when in reality, they simply need to realize that it's possible to cast a non-white character in a non-race specific role. would it have been a crime to have a black or asian rachel or chandler?
I agree with you completely.
But interracial casts are kind of risky when it comes time to write in the intimate relationship scenes. Especially with Asian guys. People don't respond well to interracial relationships. That's why it is usually easier to have a homogenous cast. But still we can have more supporting roles. We don't even have many of those.

To avoid the interracial relationship taboo Asians need to have their own show. It doesn't have to confront race issues at all. Just have a predominately Asian cast.

[hooligan]

Hooligan

I dont need to do anything. It is the responsiability of the party that has made the assertion. IE If scientists believe eating dirt will be the new panacea of diseases, then when asked for clinical trial results said "go do your own research" does that make sense?
well, i really don't want to research for you, and besides nothing i have/know is online.

[Proxy]

well, i really don't want to research for you, and besides nothing i have/know is online.

I didn't ask you to do anything. :biggrin:

[>:^|]

if i had been your secret santa, i woulda bought you a gigantic, 12" soft rubber dong. you seem to have an odd fascination with dildos.


There's always next year. :wink:

The problem that I have with Chris Rock's joke and with McCain's defense is that most ordinary people don't make those kinds of distinctions. Therefore, "nigger" = black person and "gook" = Asian person. If the terms weren't inherently tied to race and didn't derive their power from our racial hierarchy, you could use "bastard" or "moron" instead.

I'm not crazy about Rock. While I understand insider humor may be a bit different, his joke has given license to White morons to use the term "nigger" and then use the defense Rock has conveniently provided and endorsed by his blackness.

Racialization of an enemy is always problematic for those of us who look like the enemy but reside in the U.S. Like Coble, many people see "them" vs. "us."

[Yeahman]

Is this reply in the right thread ?
Yeah. All you people are replying so fast that I can't keep up. That was my reply to kittygirl from like 3 pages back.

[Tao]

I think you're going too far into the politics of the Vietnam War. I'm just talking about a term that has a negative connotation and him using it as a negative connotation. Instead of saying "bad Vietnamese person," he just says gook and instead of saying "good Vietnamese person," he just says "Vietnamese."

I think he's trying to use a racial slur to describe only the bad Vietnamese.

i'm saying if he truely knew the reason why the US failed in Vietnam, and no it wasn't becasue they "pulled out", he would've never used that term to describe the "baddies". That to me showed just how intelligent he was. Either that or how racist. Cause when you think about it.....if a president elect is using ethnic slurs, he's got some problems.

[Banana]

A big problem is that writers write Asians into a show which leads to massive stereotyping.

I think a good solution would be to write a story without knowing what the races of the characters will be and just have Asian people fill in.

Once you write a race into the story, it'll be filled with stereotypes and negative images.

[Banana]

The problem that I have with Chris Rock's joke and with McCain's defense is that most ordinary people don't make those kinds of distinctions. Therefore, "nigger" = black person and "gook" = Asian person. If the terms weren't inherently tied to race and didn't derive their power from our racial hierarchy, you could use "bastard" or "moron" instead.

That was a better counter to my argument. Good point. No offense, Tao. :)

[hooligan]

i'm saying if he truely knew the reason why the US failed in Vietnam, and no it wasn't becasue they "pulled out", he would've never used that term to describe the "baddies". That to me showed just how intelligent he was. Either that or how racist. Cause when you think about it.....if a president elect is using ethnic slurs, he's got some problems.
almost all of our presidents were soldiers and you wonder why america resorts to its military to make policy decisions.

[Proxy]

I was pleased to see the Asian guy on elimidate score the white chick at the end and beat out all of the white boys. :biggrin:

Actually I was happy to see an Asian guy on the show period.

[>:^|]

for starters, read about nakanishi's tenure case at ucla.

This is a little OT, but I found this really interesting. Isn't Nakanishi the head of the department now?

"Don's tenure case was also about the legitimacy of ethnic studies, and whether the administration saw it as having a legitimate place in academia," said Dennis Arguelles, Assistant Director of the Asian American Studies Center.

After the initial decision was made to deny Nakanishi, some professors who were on one of the involved committees broke their code of confidentiality and leaked word that there were racially biased comments made in the review.



http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/db/articles.asp?ID=3044

[Tao]

That was a better counter to my argument. Good point. No offense, Tao. :)

i'm weeping as we speak.....

but seriously, McCain's fucked up if he's gonna be using ethnic slurs in public...i don't care what his justification is, it's fucked up

[hooligan]

This is a little OT, but I found this really interesting. Isn't Nakanishi the head of the department now?



http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/db/articles.asp?ID=3044
yeah i interviewed the guy for a paper i had to do. he's really quiet but pretty nice.

[Yeahman]

I was pleased to see the Asian guy on elimidate score the white chick at the end and beat out all of the white boys. :biggrin:

Actually I was happy to see an Asian guy on the show period.
When was this!??!?!?!
Need more info!
Who is this guy? That guy is an inspiration for all Asian American men.

[Proxy]

Well for what it is worth here is my perspective on why Asian Americans are subject to racism in the United States. Asian American studies 231 notes.

Many people complain that Asian Americans are treated as perpetual foreigners; there is definite truth in that statement however we must examine why that perception is so common. A recent poll has shown that 25% of Americans are very uncomfortable with having an Asian American president vs. 3% and 4% for an African American and Jewish American respectively. The view is that Asian Americans are more loyal to their ethnic homeland rather than to the United States. For a long time I have felt very confused living in the United States and lacking an identity. I felt like a foreigner in my country in which I have been raised in. The following is some factors which dictate why the vast majority of Americans comprising of 72% Euro Americans, 12% Latino, 12% African and 4% Asian Americans, view Asians as perpetual foreigners. I have learned in class that over 2\3 or 67% of Asians residing in the United States are foreign born. Thus this immediate large constituency of the Asian population in the United States combined with radical superficial differences in appearance along with strong accents make Asian Americans stand out among the vast m majority of the current US population. The following three concepts are the main reasons why Asian Americans are regarded as foreigners because the majority (67%) are foreign born, Asian American contribution toward the United States has been relatively small compared to Euro Americans and African Americans, and in part due to the majority of foreign born Asians communication skills are lacking among the Asian population thus leading to generalizations of heavy non-American accents.

The biggest obstacle I believe is contribution to the United States, although earlier generations of Asian Americans specifically the Japanese, Chinese, Filipinos, Indian Asians have had a long history dating back to the mid 1800’s. There total numbers were relatively small ranging less than a million; also their jobs were menial such as rail road construction, gold mining for the Chinese to the farm work and plantation management by the Japanese and Filipinos. In part this was due to negative stereotypes and white supremacy views which restricted upward mobility of Asians in general of obtaining any decent job which may have had a greater influence in the history of the United States. Only since WW2 has people’s perception of fascism and racism and learning the atrocities they can lead to specifically German Nazi’s extermination campaign of the Jews and Japan’s war atrocities against Asian nations which were justified in ethnocentric views. Only since the mid 1940’s has Asian Americans begun to play an important role in the historical and important facets of American history.


I have considered the traumatic events and life changing circumstances that Asian Americans had to endure in order to immigrate to the new world. Even though it was very difficult to give up many of the things such as family, possessions and favorite activities which include things being looked forward to, I believe in the end it was worth it. In order to fully assimilate with American culture and to be considered real Americans, I present a quote from Malcolm X he said “sitting down at a restaurant does not make you a diner, you must partake of the food on the table, and similarly being in America does not make you American you must contribute to this great country first”. I agree completely. In a non-bias test I took on the internet that determines hidden bias toward considering Asians to be Americans, only about 40% of the test takers had a neutral feeling or felt Asians were Americans. I believe Asian Americans are entering a great new era of pioneering starting out in the mid 1940’s with the Nisei Japanese 442nd army regiment who fought in Germany and is the most decorated unit in US military history. A US general when asked where these Asians real Americans, answered in the affirmative “you’re damn right they are Americans, they bought a huge chunk of America with their blood and sacrifice and will live in the hearts of Americans now and forever more.” One must contribute to a country before they are considered a real citizen, this applies even more so for minority groups. Now Asian Americans are making serious contributions to America, with Chinese American governor Gary Locke and NASA astronaut Edward Lu not to mention Senators Inoyoue and the Armies highest ranks officer Chief of Staff of Army General Shinseki. This is not to mention contributions by the newly minted doctor’s lawyers and many other successful Asian Americans. I believe firmly Americans and the world will increasingly view Asian Americans as “real Americans” not because the Asian population in the United States will grow considerable in the next few decades but by the sacrifices Asian Americans will make to contribute to this great land of freedom called the United States of America. I personally will serve in US air force upon graduating with my MBA and will specialize in the area of special investigations or intelligence. I no longer get upset knowing most people still view Asians in general as foreigners; I understand their point of view and will respond not with words but with action. No one can see the sacrifices and contributions that Asian Americans will make to our country while believing Asians Americans are anything but.

[Proxy]

When was this!??!?!?!
Need more info!
Who is this guy? That guy is an inspiration for all Asian American men.

Hi Yellowman

It was awhile back in 2003. From my personal experiences I believe the Asian American men doing the interracial deal is increaseing. There is a lot of very attractive non-asian girls with Asian guys. I have seen a lot of gorgous white girls with equally handsome Asian guys.

In my humble opinion based on personal experiences girls of all ethnicities are more open to interracial dating with Asian American guys. I'll leave it at that. :wink:

However FOB type asian guys don't get nearly as much attention from anyone. :confused:

[kitty]

I no longer get upset knowing most people still view Asians in general as foreigners; I understand their point of view and will respond not with words but with action. No one can see the sacrifices and contributions that Asian Americans will make to our country while believing Asians Americans are anything but.


... so basically it's okay that people stereotype asians 'cuz we unless we give to America, it's pretty much true?

geez, and they wonder where the model minority myth comes from.

and i wonder how suddenly it became "proxy, lemme see your aa studies term paper" when we were talking about the prevalence of racism in the united states.

[>:^|]

My quick thoughts (grossly OT):

- Assimilation is bullshit.
- More than half of the foreign-born Asians in this country immigrated before 1989. And "foreign-born" does not necessarily mean "doesn't speak English" or "speaks English poorly."
- 47 percent of Asian Americans over age 25 have at least a bachelor's degree. I'm guessing they can speak English.
- Asian Americans have been contributing to American history since before the 1940's. History has been whitewashed. People of Asian descent fought in the Civil War.
- The 442nd was amazingly successful at eliminating racism. That's why this regiment's relatives were in concentration camps, and why they came home to find their homes sacked and looted and signs reading "No Japs Wanted."
- Similarly, Filipinos who seved in WWII and who were promised citizenship and other benefits instead met the "Recission Act," which reneged on all those promises.

Read history, don't just read White history. Read about Asian Americans as told by Asian Americans, not as interpreted by others.

I think there are other reasons we are perceived as the perpetual foreigner, lacking in contribution, and those reasons serve the majority agenda.

[kitty]

My quick thoughts (grossly OT):

- Assimilation is bullshit.
- More than half of the foreign-born Asians in this country immigrated before 1989. And "foreign-born" does not necessarily mean "doesn't speak English" or "speaks English poorly."
- 47 percent of Asian Americans over age 25 have at least a bachelor's degree. I'm guessing they can speak English.
- Asian Americans have been contributing to American history since before the 1940's. History has been whitewashed. People of Asian descent fought in the Civil War.
- The 442nd was amazingly successful at eliminating racism. That's why this regiment's relatives were in concentration camps, and why they came home to find their homes sacked and looted and signs reading "No Japs Wanted."
- Similarly, Filipinos who seved in WWII and who were promised citizenship and other benefits instead met the "Recission Act," which reneged on all those promises.

Read history, don't just read White history. Read about Asian Americans as told by Asian Americans, not as interpreted by others.

I think there are other reasons we are perceived as the perpetual foreigner, lacking in contribution, and those reasons serve the majority agenda.

again, you took the words right outta my mouth. but i have also completely lost track of what this thread is about. who is arguing what?

[Yeahman]

- 47 percent of Asian Americans over age 25 have at least a bachelor's degree. I'm guessing they can speak English.
You'd be surprised. Remember these are American colleges you're talking about.
Actually now that I think about, they don't even have to be American colleges. There are lots of people with degrees from Asia that can't speak English.
On top of that are the community college FOBs.

Shit what happened to my post? Anyway I wanted to ask for more info about Asians fighting in the Civil War.

[Proxy]

[QUOTE=kittygirl]... so basically it's okay that people stereotype asians 'cuz we unless we give to America, it's pretty much true? QUOTE]

If you don't contribute then why do you feel the need to recieve the rights and protection Americans enjoy?

I posted some of my notes to explain why I feel AA face discrimination in the United States.

So far you have shown great talent at complaining and manipulation but not much else... :biggrin:

[Proxy]

I would like to hear your reasons on why AA are treated as perpetual foreigners.

[>:^|]

again, you took the words right outta my mouth. but i have also completely lost track of what this thread is about. who is arguing what?

I'm arguing that although I have never in my life taken a class in Asian American history, I feel well-educated on the subject through personal experience, listening to the experiences of others, and reading. :wink:

I have no idea what anybody else is arguing. :tongue:

[Yeahman]

I would like to hear your reasons on why AA are treated as perpetual foreigners.
Because most of us are.

[Proxy]

I'm arguing that although I have never in my life taken a class in Asian American history, I feel well-educated on the subject through personal experience, listening to the experiences of others, and reading. :wink:

I have no idea what anybody else is arguing. :tongue:

The book on Asian American history was by a Japanese American which included biographic excerpts by Asian Americans . Also my professor was a 3rd generation Japanese American.

[Tao]

Because most of us are.
jesus man, you might as well just roll over on command

[Kuchana]

Because most of us are.

Err...come again?? :confused:

[kitty]

[QUOTE=kittygirl]... so basically it's okay that people stereotype asians 'cuz we unless we give to America, it's pretty much true? QUOTE]

If you don't contribute then why do you feel the need to recieve the rights and protection Americans enjoy?

I posted some of my notes to explain why I feel AA face discrimination in the United States.

So far you have shown great talent at complaining and manipulation but not much else... :biggrin:

i'm still waiting on how your belief that racism is on the decline in the u.s. stands up to racial profiling.

and i'm not about complaining. i just don't see how signing up with the military will make racism go away.

[kitty]

The book on Asian American history was by a Japanese American which included biographic excerpts by Asian Americans . Also my professor was a 3rd generation Japanese American.

wow! you *must* be a complete expert on the asian american experience, then!!

[Tao]

i just don't see how signing up with the military will make racism go away.
i can see it. sending your son to die for a cause he doesn't believe in, and for minimum wage? and the parents delude themselves, and don't sue? Shit i'd ignore how slanty or yellow they are too! GO USA!!!!!!! I'm a good american cause i have my head in a hole, and am a brood mare for the government! Yay, that'll finally earn us respect!

[Yeahman]

Err...come again?? :confused:
Most of us are immigrants. The stereotyping as foreigners won't go away until 90% of us are American-born. It happens with every new wave of immigrants.

[Yeahman]

wow! you *must* be a complete expert on the asian american experience, then!!
puahhahahaha.

[kitty]

oh, and why are we treated as perpetual foreigners? it's part of the american patriotism attempt to deal with yellow peril. The U.S. has a long history of treating chinese immigrants with fear and loathing (although when they originally arrived on american soil, they were revered and viewed with awe).

chinese immigrants were seen as taking over cheap american labour, immediately following emancipation. a low cost alternative to the loss of slavery. eventually, chinese were deeply ingrained in the coolie labour, which eventually was seen as immigrants *stealing* positions from whites. Also important during that time were anti-miscengenation laws and, contrary to current stereotypes, asian men were seen as predatory sexual fiends preying upon white women.

overall, there was a sense of bringing cheap labour to the united states but an unwillingness to allow them to actually become american -- mainly they were going to be used as labourers and then abandoned. that is why men had an easy time coming into this country, but women and families were not allowed in. asian women in particular were seen as bringing with them the vice of prostitution, since many women wer