when celebrities appropriate our culture - justin timberlake's CHI

[kasia]

Justin Timberlake Opens Chi On Sunset Boulevard
November 22, 2003


Pop star, Justin Timberlake, has now jumped into the restaurant business as many other celebrities have done in the past including his ex-girlfriend Britney Spears. Described by the Los Angeles Times as "1930s Shanghai-meets-'Blade Runner'" with indoor and outdoor waterfalls, Chi is somewhat appropriately located at the legendary rock-n-roll Hyatt on Sunset Boulevard where famous acts of the seventies including Led Zepplin and The Who crashed while playing L.A. shows.

So what’s the special? Dim Sum! Literally meaning “touch the heart” this delicacy is a Cantonese cuisine that comes mainly in the form of steamed and fried dumplings containing a wide array of fillings.

Obviously, a busy touring and recording pop star won’t be running a restaurant. So, who is running this show? Brothers Art and Allan Davis, who own three other clubs in the Los Angeles area have teamed up with Timberlake who will remain a silent partner.

In addition to dabbling in the restaurant business, Timberlake is the singer of the McDonald’s tune, I’m Lovin’ It. McDonald’s is sponsoring Timberlake’s European tour where he will be performing the song as well as making personal appearances at McDonald’s restaurants.

[kasia]

i guess i should mention this - in los angeles, there are trendy restaurants like this that serve dim sum for dinner (for white people, of course). there's no way a chinese person would pay $8.00 for a plate of four siu mai made by a white chef who probably never studied chinese cuisine. but oh well :)

bet you anything the chopsticks are red. (they were at the other place i ate at on sunset blvd.)

[kitty]

i guess i should mention this - in los angeles, there are trendy restaurants like this that serve dim sum for dinner.

o.O

dinner? that just doesn't... work... for me..

[rice cracker]

I don't know, on one hand it's nice to see "Asian" culture in the mainstream, however generically applied, but on the other hand it just seems so...cheesy, as well as exploitative. One could argue that it's much better than, say, A&F, but it's still Asia being represented for novelty to a white market.

[kasia]

I don't know, on one hand it's nice to see "Asian" culture in the mainstream, however generically applied, but on the other hand it just seems so...cheesy, as well as exploitative. One could argue that it's much better than, say, A&F, but it's still Asia being represented for novelty to a white market who views it as an exotic respite from other typical mainstream entertainments.


very exotic. there's a waterfall inside.

[ellsworth81]

i guess i should mention this - in los angeles, there are trendy restaurants like this that serve dim sum for dinner (for white people, of course). there's no way a chinese person would pay $8.00 for a plate of four siu mai made by a white chef who probably never studied chinese cuisine. but oh well :)

bet you anything the chopsticks are red. (they were at the other place i ate at on sunset blvd.)

mmm, $2 siu mai. must be stuffed with some real gourmet shit.

Wow. Red chopsticks. That's pretty cool.

Just a question in general... since red is considered a lucky color, how come it's not more common? Too expensive? Or is it only reserved for special occasions.

[rice cracker]

very exotic. there's a waterfall inside.

lol, I do have a small gift for hyperbole :)

[AngryABCGirl]

You could get 4 pieces of sau mai for a buck sixty that tastes about sixty times better in SGV. Sad people.

[kasia]

You could get 4 pieces of sau mai for a buck sixty that tastes about sixty times better in SGV. Sad people.

yeh, but it's not open at night, there's no waterfall, and there people aren't dressed in clothes from fred segal.

[ChinaLama]

and they can't hear Justin Timberlake going, "I'm lovin' it."

[kboy75]

i haven't been there, so i can't really speak on that place in particular...

but actually if it is a fusion restaurant, i don't see anything wrong with it. there are lots of great east-west fusion places that do it well and do it tastefully.

as well, if they are being blatantly offensive (geisha girl waitresses in an "chinese" restauatant, bad caricature drawings, etc...) that is a reason for concern.

if the food just sucks, then all bets are off.

[Rogmok]

i wonder how much influence JT had on picking the theme of his restaurant... i think its interesting that he wanted dim sum. maybe he really likes it..

$8 bucks a plate for dim sum?! thats messed up in the head...

[moJo]

...it's still Asia being represented for novelty to a white market.
My thoughts exactly.

Though as kboy mentioned, it depends on how it's all being presented. I'd probably have to see it for myself.

[SunWuKong]

i guess i should mention this - in los angeles, there are trendy restaurants like this that serve dim sum for dinner (for white people, of course). there's no way a chinese person would pay $8.00 for a plate of four siu mai made by a white chef who probably never studied chinese cuisine. but oh well :)

bet you anything the chopsticks are red. (they were at the other place i ate at on sunset blvd.)

holy shit 8 bucks?
and aren't red chopsticks only for some special occasions? like ancestral worship? i think it's only laid out but never actually used by a living person? i'm not sure. i'm almost certain my grandmother would say "choi!" if she sees people using red chopsticks to eat.

[kasia]

holy shit 8 bucks?
and aren't red chopsticks only for some special occasions? like ancestral worship? i think it's only laid out but never actually used by a living person? i'm not sure. i'm almost certain my grandmother would say "choi!" if she sees people using red chopsticks to eat.


my godfather did say, "choi," when a white chick walked into a chinese restaurant in a cheongsam, hair in two side buns, all made up. =p it was funny.

[moJo]

my godfather did say, "choi," when a white chick walked into a chinese restaurant in a cheongsam, hair in two side buns, all made up. =p it was funny.
huh...two side buns? i didn't know us Chinese people ever did that. It makes me think of Princess Leia more than anything.

[artsfartsyjanet]

my godfather did say, "choi," when a white chick walked into a chinese restaurant in a cheongsam, hair in two side buns, all made up. =p it was funny.


hahahaha... i can imagine that for some reason. i saw a woman at borders with a cheongsam on trying to find a book for me on the computer. her eyelids definitely had eyeliner to accentuate those slants... :)

[SunWuKong]

huh...two side buns? i didn't know us Chinese people ever did that. It makes me think of Princess Leia more than anything.

now you got me wondering about the same thing, whether or not Chinese girls ever did 2 buns. i think i might have seen it on Chinese TV shows or movies, but i don't think i should trust them in terms of historical accuracy.

[kasia]

chun li?

[rice cracker]

During my incredibly slow commute home I had some time to think more about this bit of news past my initial reaction upon reading it. I came to the conclusion that it's not necessarily bad that non-Asians have opened up an Asian fusion restaurant as long as they are respectful about it, i.e. no outlandish claims about authenticity, no caricatures or Asian stereotypes and not using some fakey Eastern spirituality as a selling point. I mean, Olive Garden doesn't really offend anyone (other than their food sucking) and I'm sure not all of them are opened by Italian Americans.

[SunWuKong]

During my incredibly slow commute home I had some time to think more about this bit of news past my initial reaction upon reading it. I came to the conclusion that it's not necessarily bad that non-Asians have opened up an Asian fusion restaurant as long as they are respectful about it, i.e. no outlandish claims about authenticity, no caricatures or Asian stereotypes and not using some fakey Eastern spirituality as a selling point. I mean, Olive Garden doesn't really offend anyone (other than their food sucking) and I'm sure not all of them are opened by Italian Americans.

agreed. for the most part i just think it's funny.

[Chester]

I came to the conclusion that it's not necessarily bad that non-Asians have opened up an Asian fusion restaurant as long as they are respectful about it, i.e. no outlandish claims about authenticity, no caricatures or Asian stereotypes and not using some fakey Eastern spirituality as a selling point.
That is, basically, what I believe.
I mean, Olive Garden doesn't really offend anyone (other than their food sucking)
That is, precisely, what I believe.

If non-Asians aren't "allowed" to open Asian places or Asian fusion places, then, by extension, Asians aren't allowed to open non-Asian places, which would really fuck up the livelihoods of all those Cambodian doughnut mavens.

[missmeow]

Yeah, what's with the hair buns thing? Coz I wear my hair in two buns either on the top/back of my head or behind my ears depending upon my mood. I have been doing this for a very, very, very long time. My friend and I used to call the high ones teddy bear ears because they look like little ears. I had never heard of it being a chinese thing until I started reading some of these forums (never heard it from any Asian friends either, but they're not Chinese).


Also, why aren't non-Asians allowed to wear Asian stuffs? I mean I understand if you look stupid--like you are wearing a costume. But cheongsams were in style a few years ago and it seemed like everyone had one.

[teaz0r]

i bet they call it fusion food.

[deez nuts]

bet you anything the chopsticks are red. (they were at the other place i ate at on sunset blvd.)


why someone getting married?

we celebrating the chinese new year?

[Emperor_Mike]

I wouldn't pay eight dollars. It's probably some odd combination of Western and Eastern cooking anyway. I have a thing against fusion cooking. Some chefs do it well, but most end up giving you strange combinations that should never be imagined let alone executed on a plate.

[ChairmanMah]

do any of you find that a lot of KFC restaraunts have a lot of filipino workers?

[kasia]

think of it this way...some of our things - like cheongsams - didn't become popular until *white* people appropriated it. it became cool only when *they* decided it would become cool.

[Emperor_Mike]

think of it this way...some of our things - like cheongsams - didn't become popular until *white* people appropriated it. it became cool only when *they* decided it would become cool.

Isn't that a damn shame? Leave it to them to start fashion trends that have been around for years.

[kasia]

4, vol 113 -- January 27, 2003
editor's voice: Steamed rice
Sarom Bahk, Associate News Editor

Last Halloween, a woman I know showed up at a party in a "Chinese" costume: slinky cheongsam dress, exaggerated black eyeliner, and a chopstick holding up her long blond tresses.

What struck me as amusing was how normal it seemed to my friend to be wearing an eating utensil. By contrast, her costume, and the fact that she was attempting to portray a stereotyped representation of another race, had disturbing implications. Perhaps it is difficult to understand why - she was dressed up as a China Doll because she thought it was a sexy, attractive image, right?

At first glance, there seems to be nothing wrong with Western culture appropriating Eastern aesthetics. Isn't this the natural product of a multicultural society? Don't all those Hindu god T-shirts and Chinese character tattoos merely indicate that North Americans appreciate the exotic allure of Asian symbols? When does cultural 'borrowing' become ignorant appropriation?

Some may argue that the popularity of these products demonstrates the pluralism of North America, that Sanrio cellphone ornaments are a sign of diversity. What concerns me about this smorgasbord consumption of the East is that people might see their love of green tea ice cream as a substitute for in-depth cultural knowledge. You don't need to learn about the Philippines, so long as you wear a shirt that says "happy flower" in Tagalog.

To add insult to injury, people in the West are making serious money by co-opting Eastern traditions. Blond celebrities like Madonna and Gwen Stefani sport bindis and sell their 'cross-cultural' images to record companies and fans. Banyan Books in Kitsilano is packed with New-Agers eager to buy Buddha. Magazines constantly tout Eastern Chic, from henna to Hello Kitty, Jet Li to dragon-embossed purses. (So why is there never an Asian on the cover?)

Such unabashed commodification also propagates orientalised clichés that further the view of Asians as mysterious and exotic beings, permanent foreigners on the North American landscape. The submissive Geisha Girl. The scheming Dragon Lady. The Kung Fu master. The oversexed Oriental prostitute. The sexually sterile Asian male. The list of stereotypes goes on and on.

I'm not saying that Asians should shed their ethnic traditions by assimilating within the mainstream. Nor do I think that cultural borrowing shouldn't occur. All cultures are amalgamations of each other, which can result in marvelous innovations like the California roll. What I believe is that if you're going to tattoo "momma" onto your body, you should know why you want it written in Chinese. If you're ordering "curried potatoes with peas" from an Indian restaurant, you should be aware that the actual name is aloo muttar and that the word "curry" doesn't exist in any Indian language.

After all, it is a culture of assimilation that compels my cousins to insert plastic tubes up their noses to make them 'bigger' or slice their eyelids to form that coveted Western crease.

And it's the same Eurocentric standard of beauty that sells 'whitening cream' in Asian department stores, or induces South Americans to bleach their indigenous roots. You can walk into any SFU classroom and witness a sea of black heads soaked in chemicals. Forget the rainbow hues of Benetton ads: blonds do have more fun.

One could see this scramble for 'round eyes' as internalised racism, an unconscious desire to be white. And no amount of feng shui lotion purchased can compensate for a conditioned self-loathing of one's genealogical features.

Cultural appropriation is inevitable, but superficial possession of a cultural image, without understanding its significance, can be insulting and ridiculous. It is bizarre to hear groups of Koreans from Los Angeles - baggy pants slipping from slight Asian bones - calling each other "nigga."

As ridiculous as wearing a fork in my hair, I guess.

[BeTheReds]

think of it this way...some of our things - like cheongsams - didn't become popular until *white* people appropriated it. it became cool only when *they* decided it would become cool.

I don't remember it ever being cool.

[missmeow]

Can't someone like something just because they like it? I understand what you're saying about the implications of cultural co-opting, but at the same time, it is just fashion. As long as someone isn't in costume, I don't see why wearing a cheongsam is offensive.

[deez nuts]

Can't someone like something just because they like it? I understand what you're saying about the implications of cultural co-opting, but at the same time, it is just fashion. As long as someone isn't in costume, I don't see why wearing a cheongsam is offensive.


sure, if you don't mind looking like an idiot wearing it as everyday wear.

[missmeow]

sure, if you don't mind looking like an idiot wearing it as everyday wear.

Do people really wear them as everyday wear?

[deez nuts]

Do people really wear them as everyday wear?

if they don't wear it as everyday wear and by your definition :

Can't someone like something just because they like it? I understand what you're saying about the implications of cultural co-opting, but at the same time, it is just fashion. As long as someone isn't in costume, I don't see why wearing a cheongsam is offensive.

when else would they wear it except in costume? in a formal function such as the office party or an evening to the opera? i really doubt the average middle class non asian woman would wear it during those occasions either.

[missmeow]

if they don't wear it as everyday wear and by your definition :



when else would they wear it except in costume? in a formal function such as the office party or an evening to the opera? i really doubt the average middle class non asian woman would wear it during those occasions either.

I've only seen them worn by non-Asians in a semi-formal setting, like a party or prom.

[deez nuts]

I've only seen them worn by non-Asians in a semi-formal setting, like a party or prom.


and did they look better when compared to a woman in say a prada dress?

[missmeow]

and did they look better when compared to a woman in say a prada dress?


I don't know what you're getting at. I wouldn't know a Prada dress if I saw one. I'm a fashion (brand name) retard.

[deez nuts]

I don't know what you're getting at. I wouldn't know a Prada dress if I saw one. I'm a fashion (brand name) retard.


ok...how about when compared to a normal evening dress?

what i am getting at is this:

please don't look like an idiot. i know fashion is subjective and you're entitled to wear what you want and when you want. but, there is an unwritten dress code on what to wear and when to wear it.

[BeTheReds]

Well, Britney Spears appeared in Seoul wearing Hanbok to start off her Asian Tour.

I just started laughing when I saw pictures of it.

But, I suppose it was at least accurate and appropriate.

[rice cracker]

ok...how about when compared to a normal evening dress?

what i am getting at is this:

please don't look like an idiot. i know fashion is subjective, but there is an unwritten dress code on what to wear and when to wear it.

Yeah, don't look like this http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/12987.htm


Note: Can't find the "browse" button on the attach feature to attach a pic.

[BeTheReds]

Yeah, don't look like this http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/12987.htm


Note: Can't find the "browse" button on the attach feature to attach a pic.


Hanbok just doesn't look right on blondes for some reason.

[rice cracker]

Hanbok just doesn't look right on blondes for some reason.

That hanbok she's wearing would look awesome on me though.

[deez nuts]

i'm tempted to start throwing chestnuts and dates at her

[deez nuts]

That hanbok she's wearing would look awesome on me though.


oh yeah?

**throws chestnuts and dates at you**

catch it woman, catch it.

ooooooh......ahhhhhhhhh....brittney.

[ChinaLama]

Hanbok just doesn't look right on blondes for some reason.

that's why she should take it off.

[missmeow]

please don't look like an idiot. i know fashion is subjective and you're entitled to wear what you want and when you want. but, there is an unwritten dress code on what to wear and when to wear it.

Yeah I agree with you. I just want to know what I'm banned from wearing.

[mr. x]

hehe remember when Bush wore that Chinese clothes? now THAT was funky

[missmeow]

That hanbok she's wearing would look awesome on me though.


Of course it would, you're actually pretty. Unlike Britney.

(Sorry, but I don't get the Britney thing. Sure, she has a hot body, but she is very average in the face deparment)

[missmeow]

that's why she should take it off.

You're naughty!

[ChinaLama]

You're naughty!

ohhhh you thought i meant that? i just meant she should take it off and put on something else. yeah that's it. :eek:

[rice cracker]

Of course it would, you're actually pretty. Unlike Britney.

(Sorry, but I don't get the Britney thing. Sure, she has a hot body, but she is very average in the face deparment)

Ooh, you get karma. Um, for your spot on critique of Britney Spears...yeah..that's it. :)

[missmeow]

ohhhh you thought i meant that? i just meant she should take it off and put on something else. yeah that's it. :eek:


Yeah suuuuuure. Uh huh.

:tongue:

[missmeow]

Ooh, you get karma. Um, for your spot on critique of Britney Spears...yeah..that's it. :)

:biggrin:

[SunWuKong]

Yeah, don't look like this http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/12987.htm


Note: Can't find the "browse" button on the attach feature to attach a pic.


damn she looks freaky.

http://www.nypost.com/photos/news12090327.jpg

[applehead]

people come to my dad's business
and buy hanbok to wear
as a halloween costumes.
i told him, i'd wish he would stop selling it.
it's just so offensive to me.
especially when they go
"chinese people wear it on new year's day, right??"

[missmeow]

What is the little hat thing called (if you don't mind my asking)?

[mr. x]

What is the little hat thing called (if you don't mind my asking)?

when i saw it i was like "wth isnt that indian or SE Asian?!?!" but then i calmed down and went "oh wait this is korean....so mayyyybe"

anyways i remember when she gave that interview in Rolling Stones she was all like "im totally into Indian religion" and the guy was like "u mean like hinduism?" and she was like "whats that?"

she's blonde, you figure it out (OH SNAP)

[Blue dice]

Hanbok just doesn't look right on blondes for some reason.
No offense to koreans but I think it looks goofy in general because of the little hat. It looks worse on Britney because it seems like the Hanbok was meant to accentuate dark hair through light colors. With her blonde hair w/ pink it just looks tacky. I bet Britney would look hot in a Kimono though.

[>:^|]

The majority has long appropriated the culture of the minority. Look at how fashion trends often follow African Americans and the GLBT community.

But the "costume" aspect has always bothered me, like applehead mentioned.

[kboy75]

No offense to koreans but I think it looks goofy in general because of the little hat. It looks worse on Britney because it seems like the Hanbok was meant to accentuate dark hair through light colors. With her blonde hair w/ pink it just looks tacky. I bet Britney would look hot in a Kimono though.
actually I think Britney looks cute in a hanbok. that hanbok is for one of those sang goongs (court ladies)... i think they are like door-opening women or something like that. the lil hat (whcih i'm not a fan of) tipped me off.

[juice]

I’m not sure I see what’s wrong with non-Asians owning Asian restaurants and wearing Asian clothing. I don’t hear anyone calling for Western style restaurants run by Asians to be closed. If this new restaurant can prepare food that people want, then they will be successful. If they want to serve traditional Chinese food or fusion, that is fine. They have great Italian and French restaurants in Japan, run by Japanese. Good food is good food. Besides, as was mentioned earlier, I’d hate to give up my donuts because the Cambodians are not allowed to make them any longer. Not to mention going to my favorite sandwich shop which is run by Koreans.

Same goes for clothing. Appropriation goes on all the time. A couple of years ago cheongsams were really popular in Japan. Girls would wear them for formal occasions and when they were going out. Why did they wear them? Because they liked the way they looked. I’m sure that is the same reason why many “Western” girls wear them as well. Many Americans find it funny when they see Asians decked out in hip hop gear stylized to meet their own cultural tastes. Isn’t this really the same thing?

[SunWuKong]

Many Americans find it funny when they see Asians decked out in hip hop gear stylized to meet their own cultural tastes. Isn’t this really the same thing?

i think that's funny looking, too.

[DragonKnight]

actually I think Britney looks cute in a hanbok. that hanbok is for one of those sang goongs (court ladies)... i think they are like door-opening women or something like that. the lil hat (whcih i'm not a fan of) tipped me off.
*sees britney wearing a hanbok*

Britney: Hey, how's it going?

Me: -bleep- open the damn door for me! :mad:

Rich, "not a big fan of booby spears"

[ellsworth81]

i think that's funny looking, too.

i concur.

but i've grown accustomed to seeing the minorities that pioneered hip-hop and urban culture to wear it. however, that thug look is arguably an american look, and presumably lots of asians that are thuggin' it are asian-*american*, which should make it acceptable. just goes to show you how accepted we are :-/



so are "cheongsams" the same as "qi pao"?

[deez nuts]

damn she looks freaky.

http://www.nypost.com/photos/news12090327.jpg

it's the hat. some snowflakes look seggzy in them outfits. makes me wanna get freaky deaky with them and play "little lost and displaced white girl in china kidnapped by rich and powerful sexually deviant chinese guy."

[missmeow]

it's the hat. some snowflakes look seggzy in them outfits. makes me wanna get freaky deaky with them and play "little lost and displaced white girl in china kidnapped by rich and powerful sexually deviant chinese guy."


Snowflakes, that's cute :D

The other part, errr...<chants will not comment...will not comment>

[deez nuts]

Snowflakes, that's cute :D


you likee?

....will you wear this for me?

[missmeow]

you likee?

....will you wear this for me?


You're terrible! :wink:

[SunWuKong]

so are "cheongsams" the same as "qi pao"?

yes.

cheung saam is the Cantonese term for it, and it's just been romanised as "cheongsam" over the years.

[missmeow]

What are the shirts called? They have the same shape as the cheongsam. I like those, they are very flattering. Are they really PJs?

[artsfartsyjanet]

As ridiculous as wearing a fork in my hair, I guess.

That last line was the best, and it reminds me of the pan-Asian restaurant called Zoe's. They still have the money you burn during ancestral rituals when someone dies or to pay tribute to them as a candle holder or center piece on all of their tables. I need to take a picture of it. To me, it's like putting the rosary or the cross in a bowl of holy water as a centerpiece while you eat.

[Chester]

That last line was the best, and it reminds me of the pan-Asian restaurant called Zoe's. They still have the money you burn during ancestral rituals when someone dies or to pay tribute to them as a candle holder or center piece on all of their tables. I need to take a picture of it. To me, it's like putting the rosary or the cross in a bowl of holy water as a centerpiece while you eat.
Ha! And, that shit stinks. They might as well let you smoke cigars in the place.

Well, at least they don't decorate with opium pipes.

[SunWuKong]

Well, at least they don't decorate with opium pipes.

oooh... that would be awesome to decorate a Chinese-themed club with.

[kasia]

I’m not sure I see what’s wrong with non-Asians owning Asian restaurants and wearing Asian clothing. I don’t hear anyone calling for Western style restaurants run by Asians to be closed. If this new restaurant can prepare food that people want, then they will be successful. If they want to serve traditional Chinese food or fusion, that is fine. They have great Italian and French restaurants in Japan, run by Japanese. Good food is good food. Besides, as was mentioned earlier, I’d hate to give up my donuts because the Cambodians are not allowed to make them any longer. Not to mention going to my favorite sandwich shop which is run by Koreans.

Same goes for clothing. Appropriation goes on all the time. A couple of years ago cheongsams were really popular in Japan. Girls would wear them for formal occasions and when they were going out. Why did they wear them? Because they liked the way they looked. I’m sure that is the same reason why many “Western” girls wear them as well. Many Americans find it funny when they see Asians decked out in hip hop gear stylized to meet their own cultural tastes. Isn’t this really the same thing?


someone reply to this - i can't b/c i'm at work. but he has posed the perfect counterargument.

[SunWuKong]

someone reply to this - i can't b/c i'm at work. but he has posed the perfect counterargument.

oh, i agree with him/her.
like i said, i just think it can look kind of funny sometimes. like Britney with her dark eye shadow and blonde hair in a hanbok over there.

[>:^|]

I think it's when liking the culture crosses the line into exoticization.

[kasia]

oh, i agree with him/her.
like i said, i just think it can look kind of funny sometimes. like Britney with her dark eye shadow and blonde hair in a hanbok over there.


okay, well i disagree. sandwiches and doughnuts were popular long before koreans or cambodians started opening their shops.

hanboks and cheongsams, on the other hand, were not considered fashionable until 'teen magazine' put it on the white chick and decided it should be so.

[rice cracker]

Haha, I've never thought that hanboks would ever be fashionable.

Seriously, though, people are going to wear clothes that they feel cool in. And if they, for whatever reason, have it in their heads that dressing in traditional Asian garb is cool, then they're going to do it. It's the reasons behind this that confuse me, because there could be so many. My opinion is that people wear these clothes because they wish to project qualities they feel the clothing implies. Asian women are stereotyped as sex objects, so if you want to look sexy and hip and whatever other half formed qualities you've thought of or have been conditioned to think of Asians as, if you wear their clothing maybe some of it will rub off on you. Ok, I've had too much coffee.

[SunWuKong]

hanboks and cheongsams, on the other hand, were not considered fashionable until 'teen magazine' put it on the white chick and decided it should be so.

i guess i'm just saying - well, what's the big deal? so they put it on a white chick and white people think they look good.

[ellsworth81]

someone reply to this - i can't b/c i'm at work. but he has posed the perfect counterargument.

well, since no one really knows how good those $8 siu mai are, i guess we have to reserve judgement....

I think what everyone is concerned about is how these restaurants seem pretentious. They do it to cash in on a trend or for superficial purposes, without any concern for the culture or history behind it. To me, Koreans running a deli are trying to scrape a living together - and not trying to satisfy their egos by selliing basic lunch meats. Cambodians running a donut shop (first time I heard that) do it for the money. For example, imagine an Asian opening up an Irish tavern/pub with people dressed up in all green and talking with Irish accents. Would an Irish person mind? Maybe, maybe not.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Japanese that operate those really ritzy Italian/French/etc. restaurants were formally schooled in Europe and such.
They seem to take it very seriously. Can the same be said about non-Asians opening Asian restaurants?

If you were to inform Italians or Frenchmen from the old country that Asians were making their food all over Asia, how do you think they would react? They may either feel flattered, or they may feel slighted because they might think Asians can't prepare Italian/French food as well as a full-blooded Italian can.

And just because people want something doesn't necessarily mean it's "right" either. What if there was a restaurant that served an animal that you actually liked, such as dog or cat? Would you still support it simply because people like the taste of it? Example, some Indians can legitimately berate us for eating cow, which is considered a sacred animal.

And "fusion" cooking remains to be seen as "good" or "quality". I'm not an expert there, but it's way too new to make any definitive judgements.

And I think I already put in my 2 cents about that thug clothing issue in an earlier post...

[kasia]

i guess i'm just saying - well, what's the big deal? so they put it on a white chick and white people think they look good.


why do they get to dictate what looks good?

[kboy75]

I can agree with some of your points but I find some a bit too presumptuous.

well, since no one really knows how good those $8 siu mai are, i guess we have to reserve judgement....

I think what everyone is concerned about is how these restaurants seem pretentious. They do it to cash in on a trend or for superficial purposes, without any concern for the culture or history behind it. To me, Koreans running a deli are trying to scrape a living together - and not trying to satisfy their egos by selliing basic lunch meats. Cambodians running a donut shop (first time I heard that) do it for the money. For example, imagine an Asian opening up an Irish tavern/pub with people dressed up in all green and talking with Irish accents. Would an Irish person mind? Maybe, maybe not.
I have no idea what these guys, Art and Allan Davis, had in mind or how much research they put into this place, but do we really know or have proof of something erroneous or blatantly offensive? If so, then yes, this is grounds for concern.

My parents opened up a Mexican fast food joint, sometimes wore sombreros, and spoke (really bad) Spanish to latinos that patronized our store. They loved it. At least I think they did.

Also, I know this cafe that is owned by Koreans near my college campus. They created the "bulgogi (Korean marinated beef) sandwich". That's not basic lunch meat. I dunno if they were staisfying their egos, but they found it marketable and sold it to whoever would try it. It was really popular among asians and non-asians alike. Can I say that those owners did not see a way to market Korean food in some way and make it gimmicky? Hmm... I dunno... but it sure did well.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Japanese that operate those really ritzy Italian/French/etc. restaurants were formally schooled in Europe and such.
They seem to take it very seriously. Can the same be said about non-Asians opening Asian restaurants?

If you were to inform Italians or Frenchmen from the old country that Asians were making their food all over Asia, how do you think they would react? They may either feel flattered, or they may feel slighted because they might think Asians can't prepare Italian/French food as well as a full-blooded Italian can. I can go along with this, but I don't think you can say that Art and Allan Davis didn't take it seriously either. I don't even know who the head chef is or any of the staff for that matter.


And just because people want something doesn't necessarily mean it's "right" either. What if there was a restaurant that served an animal that you actually liked, such as dog or cat? Would you still support it simply because people like the taste of it? Example, some Indians can legitimately berate us for eating cow, which is considered a sacred animal.
I agree with this.


And "fusion" cooking remains to be seen as "good" or "quality". I'm not an expert there, but it's way too new to make any definitive judgements.
I'd have to say that fusion cooking is not that new anymore. SF bay area has TONS of fusion restaurnts. Some are bad, some are good. But some of the good ones are really great. Top quality and classy places with properly trained staff. They do exist, so I'll disagree with you on fusion cooking.

edit: spelling typo

[deez nuts]

You're terrible! :wink:

i'll take that as a "no?" how about a "maybe?"

i think the bright color of the cheung saam will be a great contrast to your complexion. like a snowflake, you're one of a kind and pure. the outfit will only accentuate these characteristics. plus, you'll melt in my hands and on my tongue.

[Green_Circle]

That is, basically, what I believe.

That is, precisely, what I believe.

If non-Asians aren't "allowed" to open Asian places or Asian fusion places, then, by extension, Asians aren't allowed to open non-Asian places, which would really fuck up the livelihoods of all those Cambodian doughnut mavens.

Actually, the Chinese did invent donuts. Wake up, Chester.

[Green_Circle]

Of course it would, you're actually pretty. Unlike Britney.

(Sorry, but I don't get the Britney thing. Sure, she has a hot body, but she is very average in the face deparment)

Just the same, I wouldn't exactly refuse her come-ons.

[SunWuKong]

why do they get to dictate what looks good?

huh? what looks good for them isn't the same as what i think looks good. i can make up my own damn mind thank them very much.

[kasia]

huh? what looks good for them isn't the same as what i think looks good. i can make up my own damn mind thank them very much.

i'm now talking about cultural hegemony. and who has control.

[SunWuKong]

i'm now talking about cultural hegemony. and who has control.

not to be a smart-ass, but my response would be the same, since i don't exactly identify with whatever culture that teeny-bopper magazines belong to.

[kasia]

not to be a smart-ass, but my response would be the same, since i don't exactly identify with whatever culture that teeny-bopper magazines belong to.


of course you don't. i don't either. but pretend to be an outsider viewing society. then look at when the cheongsam became trendy. then look at when things of other cultures became really trendy. how did it it occur? by white appropriation.

in a few months, we'll see more white people wearing hanboks b/c of britney.

[SunWuKong]

of course you don't. i don't either. but pretend to be an outsider viewing society. then look at when the cheongsam became trendy. then look at when things of other cultures became really trendy. how did it it occur? by white appropriation.

in a few months, we'll see more white people wearing hanboks b/c of britney.

yeah, because the US is a white society. white appropriation of other cultures is just a mere extension of this fact.

[missmeow]

of course you don't. i don't either. but pretend to be an outsider viewing society. then look at when the cheongsam became trendy. then look at when things of other cultures became really trendy. how did it it occur? by white appropriation.

in a few months, we'll see more white people wearing hanboks b/c of britney.


But what's wrong with it? Are white people not allowed to wear Asian clothing or borrowing Asian textiles/clothing ideas to incoporate into Western designs? I don't really see a problem here as long as it is not partonizing (ie someone wearing a costume). It certainly isn't making Asian people less Asian because a white girl decides to wear a cheongsam to her prom.

[missmeow]

i'll take that as a "no?" how about a "maybe?"

i think the bright color of the cheung saam will be a great contrast to your complexion. like a snowflake, you're one of a kind and pure. the outfit will only accentuate these characteristics. plus, you'll melt in my hands and on my tongue.

Do you work for Hallmark?

:biggrin:

[kasia]

But what's wrong with it? Are white people not allowed to wear Asian clothing or borrowing Asian textiles/clothing ideas to incoporate into Western designs? I don't really see a problem here as long as it is not partonizing (ie someone wearing a costume). It certainly isn't making Asian people less Asian because a white girl decides to wear a cheongsam to her prom.

my question was - how do given styles become trendy? through white appropriation.

i said nothing about white people not being permitted to wear asian clothing.

[kasia]

Do you work for Hallmark?

:biggrin:


no, he just forgot to use his html for sarcasm. poor bunboy.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

why do they get to dictate what looks good?
so then who should dictate what Asian fashions look good on white people? Asian-Americans? I don't see why they can't dictate what looks good on themselves even if it looks ridiculous to everyone else. That's what people do; they care about the opinions of their peers.

[kasia]

so then who should dictate what Asian fashions look good on white people? Asian-Americans? I don't see why they can't dictate what looks good on themselves even if it looks ridiculous to everyone else. That's what people do; they care about the opinions of their peers.

because this isn't a white nation. and segregation ended a while back.

[SunWuKong]

because this isn't a white nation. and segregation ended a while back.

i would disagree with that. i think the US is a white nation. and segregation is self-imposed now.

[AliBabaIncorporated]

because this isn't a white nation. and segregation ended a while back.
Has nothing to do with segregation, though I'm sure it's easier to get people riled up about it if you keep making analogies to it.

Anyway, white people are still 70% of the country. And plenty of them, especially those outside coastal states, come into about zero contact with Asians. They don't care about what Asians think; not cuz they're racists, but cuz they don't know any, so the only opinions which matter to them are those of their peer group, which happens to be mostly white. It's not as though the proportion of the Asian-American 4% who think whites wearing cheongsams are ugly has an automatic fashion veto over people who have never met them before.

That's how fashions in general work: you stay within boundaries defined by your peer group, regardless of whether a small group of people you've never met think it's ridiculous (or even a large group of people you have met; consider goths, who get a lot of ridicule for their fashions from people they know personally, but keep dressing that way anyway because it's fashion supported by their own peer group, the people who matter to them the most).

[missmeow]

my question was - how do given styles become trendy? through white appropriation.

i said nothing about white people not being permitted to wear asian clothing.


No, but you say appropriation like it is a bad thing. If it is a bad thing, then it should not be done, right? So if whites wearing a cheongsam is cultural appropriation, a bad thing, then they shouldn't wear them, no?

Or maybe I am missing the point...

[kasia]

No, but you say appropriation like it is a bad thing. If it is a bad thing, then it should not be done, right? So if whites wearing a cheongsam is cultural appropriation, a bad thing, then they shouldn't wear them, no?

Or maybe I am missing the point...

yes. the fact that our culture must be appropriated by those of another race is a bad thing. i don't see why that is hard to understand.

are we using 'appropriated' in the same sense?

[missmeow]

no, he just forgot to use his html for sarcasm. poor bunboy.

I got the sarcasm. I was returning the favor.
:wink:

[missmeow]

yes. the fact that our culture must be appropriated by those of another race is a bad thing. i don't see why that is hard to understand.


So you are saying that whites need permission to wear Asian clothing.

[SunWuKong]

yes. the fact that our culture must be appropriated by those of another race is a bad thing. i don't see why that is hard to understand.

are we using 'appropriated' in the same sense?

actually, i don't understand why it's a bad thing. not trying to be a smart-ass here, but i honestly don't see that it's a bad thing.

[SunWuKong]

So you are saying that whites need permission to wear Asian clothing.

kasie can probably speak for herself, but no, that's not what she's saying. she only said that it's "a bad thing". which doesn't necessarily mean that white people need permission to do anything.

[kasia]

So you are saying that whites need permission to wear Asian clothing.

NO. i'm saying it is a sad state of affairs when something in our culture does not become socially acceptable until whites decide that it should be so. appropriation = social acceptability. that whites define societal norms and trends.

and i do think this is a bad thing - growing up as an ethnic minority in america.

imagine hiding part of my culture out of shame and embarassment and fear that the kids at school will make fun of me. imagine a chinese girl wearing a cheongsam in the 80's to prom - before it was trendy.

now imagine the white media - taking exactly what you had spent years hiding because white kids chastised you - and deciding that *now* is the time that it will be accepted into our culture.

[missmeow]

NO. i'm saying it is a sad state of affairs when something in our culture does not become socially unacceptable until whites decide that it should be so.

I agree with you there. It is sad when something can be painfully FOBish one day and in style the next just because the cultural majority says so. People should be proud of who they are. And other (white) folks should appreciate other people's differences.

I was interpreting your posts wrong. My bad.

[kasia]

I agree with you there. It is sad when something can be painfully FOBish one day and in style the next just because the cultural majority says so. People should be proud of who they are. And other (white) folks should appreciate other people's differences.


exactly my point.

[lethal]

I think I agree with SWK here. Maybe its because I'm a guy.

[lethal]

Is Justin Timberlake's Chi any different than Don Johnson's Ana Mandara? Robert DiNiro's Nobu?

[deez nuts]

Do you work for Hallmark?

:biggrin:


sure

i'll send a card along with the outfit to you.

name and addy?

is there a mr. meow in your life? if so, don't worry i don't mind. you can play "lost and displaced white woman in asia kidnapped by freaky deaky rich and powerful asian sexual deviant" with him.

just mail me the pics.

[missmeow]

sure

i'll send a card along with the outfit to you.



I already have one. It's next to my catholic school girl uniform.



is there a mr. meow in your life?



Just you baby.

you can play "lost and displaced white woman in asia kidnapped by freaky deaky rich and powerful asian sexual deviant"...

How about just a depraved sexual deviant?

<VBEG>

[mr. x]

i just saw Aaron Carter on Cribs. gag me with a spoon

the guy wore a 2pac shirt, yes 2pac.

the kid is the whitest wigga i ever saw. talk about apopropriating

[SunWuKong]

i just saw Aaron Carter on Cribs. gag me with a spoon

the guy wore a 2pac shirt, yes 2pac.

the kid is the whitest wigga i ever saw. talk about apopropriating

evidence number 1

http://www.aaroncarter.com/pictures/186721061387963.jpg

[DragonKnight]

evidence number 1

http://www.aaroncarter.com/pictures/186721061387963.jpg
Gross...

[kasia]

Is Justin Timberlake's Chi any different than Don Johnson's Ana Mandara? Robert DiNiro's Nobu?


just b/c they appropriate other cultures doesn't mean that it is any less offensive when they appropriate ours. other races get pissed off, too.

[lethal]

just b/c they appropriate other cultures doesn't mean that it is any less offensive when they appropriate ours. other races get pissed off, too.

Umm...those are examples of other famous people opening up Asian fusion restaurants. I was wondering if there was any uproar over them.

In Nobu's case, DeNiro is a minority owner and the head guy is actually Japanese (I think). They at least hired a top Japanese chef, Morimoto (of Iron CHef fame). I'm not sure who cooks there now as Morimoto has opened up his own restaurant in Philadelphia.

I've no idea who cooks at Ana Mandara, but when I ate there it was only OK. The decor is very good though, pretty authentic. Service is decent, waitstaff is racially mixed. Food's only mediocre. I've had better stuff at authentic Viet places.

So is the difference Timberlake's relative lack of credibility or is it the restaurant itself? Or the chef? Or the management?

[yoMAMA]

i just saw Aaron Carter on Cribs. gag me with a spoon

the guy wore a 2pac shirt, yes 2pac.

the kid is the whitest wigga i ever saw. talk about apopropriating


haha, talk about people with no talent........... :tongue:

[kasia]

Umm...those are examples of other famous people opening up Asian fusion restaurants. I was wondering if there was any uproar over them.

In Nobu's case, DeNiro is a minority owner and the head guy is actually Japanese (I think). They at least hired a top Japanese chef, Morimoto (of Iron CHef fame). I'm not sure who cooks there now as Morimoto has opened up his own restaurant in Philadelphia.

I've no idea who cooks at Ana Mandara, but when I ate there it was only OK. The decor is very good though, pretty authentic. Service is decent, waitstaff is racially mixed. Food's only mediocre. I've had better stuff at authentic Viet places.

So is the difference Timberlake's relative lack of credibility or is it the restaurant itself? Or the chef? Or the management?

one difference is that it isn't a fusion restaurant.

i'm not so sure about the other restaurants, but i watched a clip about CHI on entertainment tonight a few months ago and just didn't like it seeks to portray itself - as exotic, etc. it's just a matter of taking my culture - something i do every weekend in chinatown - and make it hip for white people.

[lethal]

one difference is that it isn't a fusion restaurant.

i'm not so sure about the other restaurants, but i watched a clip about CHI on entertainment tonight a few months ago and just didn't like it seeks to portray itself - as exotic, etc. it's just a matter of taking my culture - something i do every weekend in chinatown - and make it hip for white people.

I'm not sure that Ana Mandara is actually fusion.

It bills itself as Modern Vietnamese Cuisine.

http://anamandara.com/

The chef's Vietnamese I guess.

[Irezumi Kiss]

Kasia > I'm in TOTAL agreement with all you have said here...

I wanna write more on this subject, but I haven't been out in a blessed week and I wanna appropriate my ass down to the East Village and get sake'd out in a Japanese joint where everyone wears ratty ass t-shirts, distressed denims and used-clothing store sneakers...now THAT'S culture!

[krome]

Well, he appropriates black music, so why not Chinese food too, right? :rolleyes: Match...set. But who cares - he should rename it "Money Pit" - cuz it gonna flop just like Brit's. Hi-end celeb restaurant ventures are almost always surefire recipes for disaster.

[Faithless]

How's this for "appropriating". Aint actually celebrities, unless they're auditioning for "stooges":

http://www.whiteman.edu/Student/Hawley_web/chinadress.JPG

[krome]

^ Just curious, is that possibly at the Summer Palace in Beijing?