Disrespecting un-Americanised Asians [Archive]

Proud_Jook_Sing

11-30-2003, 07:13 PM

You know why there is this attitude? Because guys will be guys and it doesn't matter what race they are. To some guys it's a zero sum game. Victory when your guy breaks the color barrier which means it's a loss for the other guy's race.

Also, guys tend to me more superficial than gals. That is why guys accuse WMs of being Asiaphiles while it's harder for guys to conceive of women being that superficial.

Another factor is that FOB males are not socially equipped to date American women whereas FOB females don't really need much skill to say yes to a date. American born Asian males do alot more IR dating because of their upbringing.

But I will say this: for an Asian male to date a non-Asian DOES herald some achievement; it means he managed to learn the right social skills to ask a girl out and have her say yes.

So us AMs do have it harder but that's the still the modern dating game, men still have to make the first moves.

mrazntre

12-01-2003, 12:55 PM

But I will say this: for an Asian male to date a non-Asian DOES herald some achievement; it means he managed to learn the right social skills to ask a girl out and have her say yes.

I'm still trying to decipher exactly what this means. So are you saying that by being Asian (or let's say any other minority) that you will only be able to learn the "right" social skills to ask a girl out? The beginning of your post seems quite progressive and forward thinking, but I ran into this road block at the end. What you're saying is that basically all other types of social interaction that occur among and between minorities is a second citizen type of interaction.

Why would it herald some sort of achievement for an Asian male to date a non-Asian? So do social skills amongst the Asian community mean nothing?

:bomb2:

SunWuKong

12-01-2003, 01:07 PM

But I will say this: for an Asian male to date a non-Asian DOES herald some achievement; it means he managed to learn the right social skills to ask a girl out and have her say yes.

achievement?

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

now i feel like a man of success, because i've dated non-Asian girls.

mrazntre

12-01-2003, 01:13 PM

achievement?

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

now i feel like a man of success, because i've dated non-Asian girls.

me too.

^5

:blush:

Fireblade

12-01-2003, 02:59 PM

me too.

^5

:blush:

Holy crap... me too.

now I feel like I've accomplished something with my life. :laugh:

Proud_Jook_Sing

12-01-2003, 03:57 PM

I'm still trying to decipher exactly what this means. So are you saying that by being Asian (or let's say any other minority) that you will only be able to learn the "right" social skills to ask a girl out? The beginning of your post seems quite progressive and forward thinking, but I ran into this road block at the end. What you're saying is that basically all other types of social interaction that occur among and between minorities is a second citizen type of interaction.

Why would it herald some sort of achievement for an Asian male to date a non-Asian? So do social skills amongst the Asian community mean nothing?
I guess I mistyped or am trying to avoid using FOB to much. What I was trying to say is that an Asian man who was born and socialized overseas and comes to America must learn a whole new set of social skills to date the girls socialized in America. Dating is hard enough for American born any-male. So for a male immigrant to come over and have to relearn a new style of dating and get the American girl sounds like a nice achievement.

The flip side of it, is that American born Asian males should have a much better idea of what they're supposed to do to get a date so for them its not that much of an achievement.

SunWuKong

12-01-2003, 10:03 PM

I guess I mistyped or am trying to avoid using FOB to much. What I was trying to say is that an Asian man who was born and socialized overseas and comes to America must learn a whole new set of social skills to date the girls socialized in America. Dating is hard enough for American born any-male. So for a male immigrant to come over and have to relearn a new style of dating and get the American girl sounds like a nice achievement.

The flip side of it, is that American born Asian males should have a much better idea of what they're supposed to do to get a date so for them its not that much of an achievement.

whatever, man. fob or not, non-Asian girls aren't some trophies for men to "achieve".

and in my opinion, i'd be more impressed if a fobby guy manages to hook up with an American-born Asian girl because American-borns (for example, like you) love to perceive fobs as socially inept, when really, it's just that they're not Americanised.

recks

12-01-2003, 10:12 PM

mr. x

12-01-2003, 10:13 PM

shy

12-02-2003, 06:36 AM

kitty

12-02-2003, 07:27 AM

this is so true! both points...

yeah... i don't think anyone should be judged on who they go out with. so long as they don't flaunt it or abuse it in anyway. an asian man who dates a non-asian woman is no better then an asian man dating an asian woman. or vice-a-versa.

in most cases, these people are happy with who they are with and i think that's the important factor.

i totally agree!!

Proud_Jook_Sing

12-02-2003, 07:51 AM

whatever, man. fob or not, non-Asian girls aren't some trophies for men to "achieve".

and in my opinion, i'd be more impressed if a fobby guy manages to hook up with an American-born Asian girl because American-borns (for example, like you) love to perceive fobs as socially inept, when really, it's just that they're not Americanised.
It's just like SWK to take something obvious and twist it into a personal attack. Social ineptitude depends on the context, you can be great in China but come to America you may become socially inept (and vice versa). Being an un-Americanized FOB will make you socially inept since the context is now American style dating. That's nothing earth shattering.

So if you want to define FOB as un-Americanized then sure FOB = socially inept at American style dating.

I also find it funny how you generalize all American-born Asian girls.

Let's change the subject just a bit. Is American-style dating getting popular around the world? I define American-style dating as looking for love, and giving the girl alot of attention, equality in the relationship, being openly affectionate, mutual respect.

Are girls all over the world becoming more attracted this style? If so, why? Did some cultures not even have a "real" style of dating?

Personally I think it is the natural evolution (irregardless of culture) of women gaining more equality, prominence and say in their own relationships. And the smart guys are naturally evolving too to adapt to give women what they want. The guys who don't adapt are being left behind as they should (like un-Americanized FOBs trying to date in American girls.)

golden_buns

12-02-2003, 08:10 AM

Proud_Jook_Sing

12-02-2003, 08:22 AM

I see Proud's point to an extent. In my case, eventhough I lived all my life in a western country when I first moved to the States I found it hard to date amercian girls mainly because the culture, humor, and conversation subjects where very different. Plus not being fluent in english and not being to communicate nor express my thoughts how I wanted was another problem.
Hehe, I never said non-Asian girls were a trophy even though SWK implied it. What I said was what Golden Buns confirmed.

His family background did not prepare him for the new social context plus he had to learn a new language with all the metaphors and jingo. Obviously not easy to do. Small talk, shared interests, humor, sports, music, dancing, etc. Even if you're American that's hard to manage anyway.

I mean all my parents and relatives would talk about is food, food, children, food, be a doctor, food, study hard, food, etc. That's not going to attract many women.

nonamerasian

12-02-2003, 08:34 AM

Let's change the subject just a bit. Is American-style dating getting popular around the world? I define American-style dating as looking for love, and giving the girl alot of attention, equality in the relationship, being openly affectionate, mutual respect.

I thought American-style dating was more along the lines of looking for booty rather than looking for love. Dating people based mainly on exterior aesthetics who you may not even fall in love with or consider for marriage.

SunWuKong

12-02-2003, 09:01 AM

It's just like SWK to take something obvious and twist it into a personal attack. Social ineptitude depends on the context, you can be great in China but come to America you may become socially inept (and vice versa). Being an un-Americanized FOB will make you socially inept since the context is now American style dating. That's nothing earth shattering.

So if you want to define FOB as un-Americanized then sure FOB = socially inept at American style dating.

I also find it funny how you generalize all American-born Asian girls.

Let's change the subject just a bit. Is American-style dating getting popular around the world? I define American-style dating as looking for love, and giving the girl alot of attention, equality in the relationship, being openly affectionate, mutual respect.

Are girls all over the world becoming more attracted this style? If so, why? Did some cultures not even have a "real" style of dating?

Personally I think it is the natural evolution (irregardless of culture) of women gaining more equality, prominence and say in their own relationships. And the smart guys are naturally evolving too to adapt to give women what they want. The guys who don't adapt are being left behind as they should (like un-Americanized FOBs trying to date in American girls.)

you are a piece of work, because "i find it funny how you generalise all fobs".

and take it from one who has participated in "Chinese-style dating" as well as "American-style dating" - whatever the fuck those terms means, i assume i've done both because i've dated both in Asia as well as in America. "Chinese-style dating" also means: looking for love, giving the girl a lot of attention, equality in the relationship, being openly affectionate, mutual respect.

you are truly a fine example of a Jook Sing - you look down on fobs even more than white people do.

deez nuts

12-02-2003, 09:36 AM

I see Proud's point to an extent. In my case, eventhough I lived all my life in a western country when I first moved to the States I found it hard to date amercian girls mainly because the culture, humor, and conversation subjects where very different. Plus not being fluent in english and not being to communicate nor express my thoughts how I wanted was another problem.

that shit don't matter, brother buns. my nickname in college was the "international man" way before austin powers came to be. my game and pimp pimp playah playah skills transcends the international date line.

i prefer the nickname carvel though, cuz i had all 31 flavas.

edit: **pats self on the back**

Proud_Jook_Sing

12-02-2003, 09:37 AM

you are truly a fine example of a Jook Sing - you look down on fobs even more than white people do.
No I think it is 100% personal SWK.

deez nuts

12-02-2003, 09:39 AM

oh lookie lookie....fobs and bobs versus jook sings the sequel.

SunWuKong

12-02-2003, 10:56 AM

No I think it is 100% personal SWK.

the sad thing about you is you don't even realise how disrespectful your attitude is, thinking that fobs are "inept" at the most simple human things like "equality in the relationship, being openly affectionate, mutual respect".

So if you want to define FOB as un-Americanized then sure FOB = socially inept at American style dating.

I define American-style dating as looking for love, and giving the girl alot of attention, equality in the relationship, being openly affectionate, mutual respect.

Proud_Jook_Sing

12-02-2003, 11:17 AM

the sad thing about you is you don't even realise how disrespectful your attitude is, thinking that fobs are "inept" at the most simple human things like "equality in the relationship, being openly affectionate, mutual respect".
Amazing how you continue to try and put words in my mouth when it is only your own pathetic thinking generalizing to fit your own misconceptions.

What world did you come from? Are you trying to tell me these were the priorities for dating for my parents generation? Get real, it had little to do with those characteristics. How often do your parents kiss each other in front of others? Compatibility, financial security, familial obligations were stronger priorities. Do you really think they conceived of women's lib? They respected each other but for the roles that had been traditionally conceived.

"So if you want to define FOB as un-Americanized then sure FOB = socially inept at American style dating."

I stand by what I SAID and NOT by what you say it says, even if cannot grasp by the meaning of it.

If dating in Asia now is more like in America that's western influence. There was NO DATING in traditional Chinese culture.

I just being disrespectful of your pompous attitude and not of my Asian brethren who are born in Asia to be clear.

kimpossible

12-02-2003, 11:26 AM

oh lookie lookie....fobs and bobs versus jook sings the sequel.

*clicks seat belt in place*

This is definitely one of those Chinese things I don't get.

Proud_Jook_Sing

12-02-2003, 11:52 AM

oh lookie lookie....fobs and bobs versus jook sings the sequel.
It's me vs. SWK. Or as SWK likes to generalize - SWK vs. all Jook Sings with that attitude.

Which is too bad because this thread is better than that.

SunWuKong

12-02-2003, 12:13 PM

Amazing how you continue to try and put words in my mouth when it is only your own pathetic thinking generalizing to fit your own misconceptions.

What world did you come from? Are you trying to tell me these were the priorities for dating for my parents generation? Get real, it had little to do with those characteristics. How often do your parents kiss each other in front of others? Compatibility, financial security, familial obligations were stronger priorities. Do you really think they conceived of women's lib? They respected each other but for the roles that had been traditionally conceived.

"So if you want to define FOB as un-Americanized then sure FOB = socially inept at American style dating."

I stand by what I SAID and NOT by what you say it says, even if cannot grasp by the meaning of it.

If dating in Asia now is more like in America that's western influence. There was NO DATING in traditional Chinese culture.

I just being disrespectful of your pompous attitude and not of my Asian brethren who are born in Asia to be clear.

yeah, Jook Sing. just keep learning about Asian cultures from Amy Tan books.

Chester

12-02-2003, 12:13 PM

the sad thing about you is you don't even realise how disrespectful your attitude is, thinking that fobs are "inept" at the most simple human things like "equality in the relationship, being openly affectionate, mutual respect".
I can see your point with regard to PJS's earlier post.

But, as I've said before, you yourself have a habit of painting ABCs with a broad, condescending brush.

The quickness with which you sometimes take things personal when this topic comes up strikes me as unproductive, in general, and unseemly, given that you're a moderator.

Which isn't to say that I'm above this sort of thing. But...I'm not a moderator...and a disrespectful "jook sing" besides.

Anyway, you might want to tone that kind of shit down because you're engaging in the same sort of scornful generalizations that you often complain about.

This sort of shit, for example, is totally unnecessary and takes things to an ugly place that even PJS had the dignity to avoid:
yeah, Jook Sing. just keep learning about Asian cultures from Amy Tan books.

SunWuKong

12-02-2003, 12:16 PM

But, as I've said before, you yourself have a habit of painting ABCs with a broad, condescending brush.

kind of hard not to when we've got a great example of a Jook Sing being his unsurprisingly disrespectful self.

Proud_Jook_Sing

12-02-2003, 12:19 PM

kind of hard not to when we've got a great example of a Jook Sing being his unsurprisingly disrespectful self.
SWK you'll never admit to your own prejudices.

mr. x

12-02-2003, 12:28 PM

hoookay this is not good u two

im sure theres a misunderstanding somewhere. so deal with it privately

Chester

12-02-2003, 12:37 PM

SWK you'll never admit to your own prejudices.
Actually...I think that's sort of what he just did, albeit in a pretty shitty way.

SunWuKong

12-02-2003, 12:56 PM

SWK you'll never admit to your own prejudices.

let me lay it down for you.

What world did you come from? Are you trying to tell me these were the priorities for dating for my parents generation? Get real, it had little to do with those characteristics. How often do your parents kiss each other in front of others? Compatibility, financial security, familial obligations were stronger priorities. Do you really think they conceived of women's lib? They respected each other but for the roles that had been traditionally conceived.

If dating in Asia now is more like in America that's western influence. There was NO DATING in traditional Chinese culture.

you are comparing the current society with the society of your parents' generation. you're 34? you're better off comparing your parents to Westerners that were born in the 40s. as if Americans today don't find discrepancies between their dating patterns and that of their parents. get real, fob or not, we are not our parents. like i said, keep reading about Chinese culture from Amy Tan books. even my grandparents had a courtship, and they were born in 1920s rural China. call it "Western influence" if you like, but if you would rather take your parents' generation as evidence of how fobs are instead of taking my word for it for how it is, whereas i have dated girls in Asia and fobby girls in the US, then it's your call. just don't be surprised when i tell you that it's stereotypical Jook Sing mentality.

I just being disrespectful of your pompous attitude and not of my Asian brethren who are born in Asia to be clear.

oh, you mean sort of like how you think becoming Americanised is an achievement to be praised? where the reverse - not being assimilated - means they are lacking in certain achievements in life? becoming Americanised is just a natural effect of having lived in the US for long periods of time and socialising with American friends. it is no achievement, and it's condescending to think that it is.

Chester

12-02-2003, 01:09 PM

oh, you mean sort of like how you think becoming Americanised is an achievement to be praised? where the reverse - not being assimilated - means they are lacking in certain achievements in life? becoming Americanised is just a natural effect of having lived in the US for long periods of time and socialising with American friends. it is no achievement, and it's condescending to think that it is.
The way that you're taking it, most definitely.

At the same time, I don't think he was saying being Americanized is necessarily an achievement, but that being able to act within American standards is.

That is, he's not applauding people giving up their culture...but applauding those who can add a new set of mores to operate within.

At least, I would. Just as I think it would be an accomplishment for a white American to go to China and be able to conform to Chinese customs when the situation requires or suggests it. Not to open the whole IR maelstrom, but I would also see it as an accomplishment for him to be able to woo a Chinese girl as someone who is adapting to her culture rather than forcing her to adapt to his.

Is this to say that "FOBby" behavior is deficient or somehow bad? No. But I don't think it's condescending to say that an immigrant has achieved something by being able to mix seamlessly both into a "FOB" crowd and a native American crowd.

Anyway, I don't know what PJS means, but that's what I mean.

Proud_Jook_Sing

12-02-2003, 01:27 PM

The way that you're taking it, most definitely.

At the same time, I don't think he was saying being Americanized is necessarily an achievement, but that being able to act within American standards is.

That is, he's not applauding people giving up their culture...but applauding those who can add a new set of mores to operate within.

At least, I would. Just as I think it would be an accomplishment for a white American to go to China and be able to conform to Chinese customs when the situation requires or suggests it. Not to open the whole IR maelstrom, but I would also see it as an accomplishment for him to be able to woo a Chinese girl as someone who is adapting to her culture rather than forcing her to adapt to his.

Is this to say that "FOBby" behavior is deficient or somehow bad? No. But I don't think it's condescending to say that an immigrant has achieved something by being able to mix seamlessly both into a "FOB" crowd and a native American crowd.

Anyway, I don't know what PJS means, but that's what I mean.
Chester got it right. I thought I was simply stating the obvious, if you're raised with one set of norms and get thrown into a new environment and learn or add a whole new set of norms that is an achievement whether it relates to business or dating, etc. SWK blew it up into something of his own thinking.

SWK, you do not understand what being Americanized really really is. It is not a natural effect, it takes practice, empathy, observation and listening skills. If you think Americanized means being able to blend in then that's nothing. But it is a totally different thing to build a set of American social skills that enables you to be a persuasive speaker, a schmoozer, a networker, etc. There is no glass ceiling for Asians who have those skills in the social context and those are very hard to achieve.

That's the same in any country. Success in most everything comes from understanding the norms and excelling at those social traits that society values. Too many Asians think learning the local language and dressing "native" is Americanized while neglecting the real hard empathic social skills that make people want to listen to you, promote you, look up to you, etc.

Fireblade

12-02-2003, 01:29 PM

ok, this thread just degenerated into a FOB vs. ABC thing.
Wtf happened here? :mad:
Make a new rant thread about it, but don't do it here.

Anyway, going along HH and Kitty's post about IR groupies, it's weird, because some of them will acknowledge you when you're with someone. Once in a while, people will stare, but eventually you kind of nod it off. I dunno... Just my experience.

SunWuKong

12-02-2003, 01:30 PM

SWK, you do not understand what being Americanized really really is. It is not a natural effect, it takes practice, empathy, observation and listening skills. If you think Americanized means being able to blend in then that's nothing. But it is a totally different thing to build a set of American social skills that enables you to be a persuasive speaker, a schmoozer, a networker, etc. There is no glass ceiling for Asians who have those skills in the social context and those are very hard to achieve.

stop. you're making me laugh now. i'm a 1.5 genner. i know more about becoming Americanised than you ever will. you were born Americanised.

by the way, praise me now, because i can culturally fit in with a room full of white people in the US as well as local Chinese in Asia. go me. i'm special.

Proud_Jook_Sing

12-02-2003, 01:41 PM

stop. you're making me laugh now. i'm a 1.5 genner. i know more about becoming Americanised than you ever will. you were born Americanised.

by the way, praise me now, because i can culturally fit in with a room full of white people in the US as well as local Chinese in Asia. go me. i'm special.
What do you do for a living? Are you management material?

Here's some qualifications reqs from a job I am interviewing for:

Articulate; excellent communication skills (written, verbal, public speaking) required.

Demonstrated impact of leadership ability, including direct and influence management skills.

Obviously, this is a manager's position that interacts with alot of people who you work with but do not supervise. There are of course technical requirements but any MBA can meet those.

Do you feel you have the above skills and can demonstrate them convincingly in a high pressure interview? Just fitting in won't get you this job.

Being born here only gives me a headstart over you if my entire family does not have good American social skills and didn't have me interact much with Americans as a child.

kasia

12-02-2003, 01:47 PM

But I will say this: for an Asian male to date a non-Asian DOES herald some achievement; it means he managed to learn the right social skills to ask a girl out and have her say yes.

wow. why are we giving non-Asian girls so much credit? i know plenty of dorky white chicks, black chicks, etc. most look pretty awkward at parties to me. i don't think being able to have a non-Asian gf says anything about one's social skills.

i'd be more impressed if the guy went to a korean club and convinced a girl to go home with him. that's social skills.

Proud_Jook_Sing

12-02-2003, 01:57 PM

Pretty self-serving Thread title SWK. I'm done with you.

537

12-02-2003, 02:07 PM

What do you do for a living? Are you management material?

Here's some qualifications reqs from a job I am interviewing for:

Articulate; excellent communication skills (written, verbal, public speaking) required.

Demonstrated impact of leadership ability, including direct and influence management skills.

Obviously, this is a manager's position that interacts with alot of people who you work with but do not supervise. There are of course technical requirements but any MBA can meet those.

Do you feel you have the above skills and can demonstrate them convincingly in a high pressure interview? Just fitting in won't get you this job.

Being born here only gives me a headstart over you if my entire family does not have good American social skills and didn't have me interact much with Americans as a child.

So correct me if I am wrong, but are you arguing that 1.5 genners are not articulate, or do not have excellent communication skills? Is it truly an achievement to you that you were born here and therefore have interacted with more Americans?

I was born in the States, too. However, it would be very irrational to believe this is an achievement which puts me in a better position than someone that immigrated here. So you're interviewing candidates for a position, and from your own words, you definitely sound biased towards someone who has grown up with more "Americans" than someone that wasn't born here.

I wonder how many Equal Opportunity rights that violates....

537

12-02-2003, 02:16 PM

But I will say this: for an Asian male to date a non-Asian DOES herald some achievement; it means he managed to learn the right social skills to ask a girl out and have her say yes.

Are you seriously granting merit to someone based on the ethnicity of the person they are dating? wtf?

This is wrong on so many levels.

Say I were to date some ghetto East-Side crack hoe that is of latin descent. From what I quoted of you, I've made some sort of achievement, correct? (ok....EW.)

Or were you really trying to say that for an Asian male to date [someone of upstanding social status and/or intelligence], that would herald some achievement? At that point, what fucking difference does it make whether she's White, Brown, Yellow, or fucking polka-dotted?

kitty

12-02-2003, 02:26 PM

wow. why are we giving non-Asian girls so much credit? i know plenty of dorky white chicks, black chicks, etc. most look pretty awkward at parties to me. i don't think being able to have a non-Asian gf says anything about one's social skills.

i'd be more impressed if the guy went to a korean club and convinced a girl to go home with him. that's social skills.

this hate fest is kinda frightening. anyways, I agree with Kasia here. It's not like all non-Asians are some 'prize' or some great commodity, that your average Asian man (Americanized or not) would be unable to achieve unless he were in posession of breathtaking social skills. I think social skills has little to do with your ability to 'get' a non-Asian girl vs. an Asian girl. On the other hand, if you like taking your girl out for bubble tea and karaoke, you might have a harder time getting an Americanized girl (Asian or not) as you would a FOBby girl for whom this is your regular friday night.

I don't think SWK is making any sweeping generalizations of Americanized people that are any more critical or wrong than PJS' sweeping generalizations of FOBs. It seems like you both are 'guilty' of trying to peg people down by how/where they were born... and to some extent, you both seem to have some valid points. There are some generalizations you can make about FOBs and ABCs, and you guys are making them... I don't think either of you have crossed the line -- certainly not to the extent that Chester and PJS are implying that SWK has done.

Finally, PJS, could you clarify your argument on the articulate thing with your interview and all that? It DOES sound like you're saying that SWK cannot possess those skills because he's a 1.5 genner... which I know is not the case. Furthermore, it's not like you really have solid ground claiming that you do... because it's just that -- a claim that you are articulate, etc... So really, I don't think that's any basis for any point.

More finally, what personal attack? I don't think SWK is guilty of a personal attack. And I also don't think it's fair for you to tell SWK to quiet his opinion down because he holds admin status. Neither he nor any other mod singlehandedly bears the weight of representing the entirety of YW. He has just as much a right as you do to make sweeping generalizations about a particular group, and back them up with his opinions. He hasn't abused his rights as admin yet, so I don't think it's fair for you to ask him to censor himself in this discussion.

kitty

12-02-2003, 02:28 PM

Are you seriously granting merit to someone based on the ethnicity of the person they are dating? wtf?

This is wrong on so many levels.

Say I were to date some ghetto East-Side crack hoe that is of latin descent. From what I quoted of you, I've made some sort of achievement, correct? (ok....EW.)

Or were you really trying to say that for an Asian male to date [someone of upstanding social status and/or intelligence], that would herald some achievement? At that point, what fucking difference does it make whether she's White, Brown, Yellow, or fucking polka-dotted?

I think the unspoken implication here is that non-Asians are of upstanding social status and/or intelligence -- more so than Asians.

ChairmanMah

12-02-2003, 02:38 PM

I was born in the States, too. However, it would be very irrational to believe this is an achievement which puts me in a better position than someone that immigrated here.

true, alot of the fobby types here have the nicest most riciest cars in Vancouver and Richmond. Not just civics but like beamers, benzs, type r's, rx-7s, s2000's you name it with the craziest kits, rims and paint jobs.

I think, where the heck do these guys get this money from? business, stocks?

kitty

12-02-2003, 02:43 PM

true, alot of the fobby types here have the nicest most riciest cars in Vancouver and Richmond. Not just civics but like beamers, benzs, type r's, rx-7s, s2000's you name it with the craziest kits, rims and paint jobs.

I think, where the heck do these guys get this money from? business, stocks?

FOBs generally come from money -- they are usually the only people who can afford to immigrate which is a lengthy and expensive process.

SunWuKong

12-02-2003, 02:55 PM

What do you do for a living? Are you management material?

Here's some qualifications reqs from a job I am interviewing for:

Articulate; excellent communication skills (written, verbal, public speaking) required.

Demonstrated impact of leadership ability, including direct and influence management skills.

Obviously, this is a manager's position that interacts with alot of people who you work with but do not supervise. There are of course technical requirements but any MBA can meet those.

Do you feel you have the above skills and can demonstrate them convincingly in a high pressure interview? Just fitting in won't get you this job.

Being born here only gives me a headstart over you if my entire family does not have good American social skills and didn't have me interact much with Americans as a child.

i'm just a nerdy FOB who gets nervous when there's a white person within 10 feet of me. but i have managed to acheive certain levels of Americanisation. i have the Certificate of Understanding American Football, but i'm working on the Certificate of Understanding American Humor. i'm almost done with that one. it's quite an achievement, i tell you.

SunWuKong

12-02-2003, 03:03 PM

FOBs generally come from money -- they are usually the only people who can afford to immigrate which is a lengthy and expensive process.

this is true of Canada, but not so much in the US. well, i'm only talking about Chinese immigrants here - excluding Taiwanese. a lot, if not most, Chinese immigrants come to the US because of family relations, or that they were students, or they are illegals.

SunWuKong

12-02-2003, 03:04 PM

More finally, what personal attack? I don't think SWK is guilty of a personal attack. And I also don't think it's fair for you to tell SWK to quiet his opinion down because he holds admin status. Neither he nor any other mod singlehandedly bears the weight of representing the entirety of YW. He has just as much a right as you do to make sweeping generalizations about a particular group, and back them up with his opinions. He hasn't abused his rights as admin yet, so I don't think it's fair for you to ask him to censor himself in this discussion.

well, i admit i'm pushing the envelope and crossing the line a bit. i think people are justified in their complaints because i need to hold myself to higher standards of behaviour precisely because i'm an admin here.

kitty

12-02-2003, 03:06 PM

true... i should change my statement to say 'many middle to upper middle-class FOBs'... especially those in mine, and I assume Mah's, neighbourhood in Canada...

... this doesn't include refugees or immigrants brought in only through family ties (though having money still makes this second group a whole lot easier).

kitty

12-02-2003, 03:08 PM

well, i admit i'm pushing the envelope and crossing the line a bit. i think people are justified in their complaints because i need to hold myself to higher standards of behaviour precisely because i'm an admin here.

sure, maybe you shouldn't stoop to randomly shouting out racial slurs like someone suffering from Turrets, but I fail to see the so-called personal attack in this thread.

kasia

12-02-2003, 03:09 PM

I concur with PJS. He knows what it's all about.

you mean that non-asians are some sort of prize?

kasia

12-02-2003, 03:10 PM

I also find it funny how you generalize all American-born Asian girls.

and this, of course, was so different from how you generalized all non-Asian girls.

kasia

12-02-2003, 03:15 PM

There is no glass ceiling for Asians who have those skills in the social context and those are very hard to achieve.

um...right. we impose the glass ceilings on ourselves.

thank god you didn't become a lawyer.

Chester

12-02-2003, 03:17 PM

I don't think either of you have crossed the line -- certainly not to the extent that Chester and PJS are implying that SWK has done.
Well, I'd say that PJS has gotten personal, but the personal things he has gone off on have been behavior based, whereas SWK -- as has been a habit -- has been making personal generalizations based upon a person being an ABC.

More finally, what personal attack? I don't think SWK is guilty of a personal attack.

Insulting Generalization #1:
American-borns (for example, like you) love to perceive fobs as socially inept, when really, it's just that they're not Americanised.
Insulting Generalization #2:
you are truly a fine example of a Jook Sing - you look down on fobs even more than white people do.
Personal Insult/Presumption #1:
yeah, Jook Sing. just keep learning about Asian cultures from Amy Tan books.
Insulting Generalization #3:
kind of hard not to when we've got a great example of a Jook Sing being his unsurprisingly disrespectful self.
I guess that one was kind of personal too.
Personal Insult/Presumption #2:
like i said, keep reading about Chinese culture from Amy Tan books.
And I also don't think it's fair for you to tell SWK to quiet his opinion down because he holds admin status.
I didn't tell him to quiet his opinion due to his being an admin. I was just reminding him that, since he is an admin, he might want to follow the same guidelines he's supposed to enforce on others.
He has just as much a right as you do to make sweeping generalizations about a particular group, and back them up with his opinions.
Yeah, I guess he has the right to put out insulting generalizations. It's also my right to point out that he's wrong when he does this.
He hasn't abused his rights as admin yet, so I don't think it's fair for you to ask him to censor himself in this discussion.
1. I didn't say he abused his rights as an admin. I said his behavior was unseemly given that he's an admin.
2. I can't censor him. I'm not an admin.

I'm not making this reply to slag on SWK, as he's already settled down, just to clarify to you, Kittygirl, what I meant by my first couple posts in this thread.

Chester

12-02-2003, 03:25 PM

Do you feel you have the above skills and can demonstrate them convincingly in a high pressure interview? Just fitting in won't get you this job.

Being born here only gives me a headstart over you if my entire family does not have good American social skills and didn't have me interact much with Americans as a child.
First of all, while I can agree with certain aspects of your opinion, the way you're phrasing this gives a very strong impression that you consider yourself superior and that you're gloating about it. Before and after you start criticizing others about making personal attacks, you might want to hold yourself to a similarly-high standard, even when it comes to the subtext of what you write.

On the topic of immigrants/ABCs and management...I have a cousin who came to the U.S. from HK for college. He still speaks with a very strong accent and is unmistakably "FOBby," but since graduating, he's steadily rose up in a particular, well-known tech company's ranks and is currently managing quite a few people. The very definition of "management material."

One reason is that he has leveraged the fact that he has a strong Chinese cultural background, which has made him indispensable in terms of their Chinese offices.

The other reason -- the more significant one, is that he's simply a good manger. He's diligent, intelligent, a good people person, and capable of delegating work effectively. Those skills are aided by being able to seamlessly melt into the local culture, but they are not mutually exclusive from that ability. Far from it.

SunWuKong

12-02-2003, 03:39 PM

:laugh:

ok thanks Chester, for pointing out where i have crossed the line.

and thanks also for pointing out PJS's pompous attitude. honestly it doesn't surprise me at all because i've always known this is how he feels - that Americanisation makes one superior.

deez nuts

12-02-2003, 05:04 PM

i never knew so much thought process along with so much cultural prerequisites and ramifications are involved in getting a date for friday night.

i just kinda figured you stroll up to the girl you're interested in, ask what her name is, make a little small talk, maybe get to know her for a brief period of time and casually slip in that you want to have dinner with her somewhere down the line.

i didn't know it involved such complex intricacies like deriving bernoulli's law.

kasia

12-02-2003, 05:12 PM

SunWuKong

12-02-2003, 05:13 PM

i just kinda figured you stroll up to the girl you're interested in, ask what her name is, make a little small talk, maybe get to know her for a brief period of time and casually slip in that you want to have dinner with her somewhere down the line.

apparently, you are unable to do this if you are not Americanised.

and apparently, for a fobby guy to manage to get a date with an American girl, it is quite an achievement. because, you know, American girls just generally don't like fobby guys. makes me wonder what those girls in junior high saw in me then.

deez nuts

12-02-2003, 05:14 PM

you speak english so well. i bet you can get a lot of girls. non-asian girls, that is.

no kas, i'm a socially inept 1.5 genner.

deez nuts

12-02-2003, 05:15 PM

Blue dice

12-02-2003, 05:21 PM

apparently, you are unable to do this if you are not Americanised.

and apparently, for a fobby guy to manage to get a date with an American girl, it is quite an achievement. because, you know, American girls just generally don't like fobby guys. makes me wonder what those girls in junior high saw in me then.
Maybe you were the exception? Can you relate some personal experiences to us in regards to your dating american girls as a fob. :>

He does have somewhat of a point, if the culture difference is too great then it's going to be harder finding some common ground to be able to date. Plus it's not like asian accents or culture is stereotyped as "sexy" like a italian, french, or spanish person. The media portrays anyone with an asian accent as a person working in a liquor store, kung fu master, or a B-movie villain.

kimpossible

12-02-2003, 05:22 PM

If all this were true, I would care more about the incredibly articulate posts Emporer Mike makes rather than ponder the 8 incher in his pants.

ChairmanMah

12-02-2003, 05:22 PM

i think this all started with PJS saying SWK had "pathetic thinking"

that really pissed him off after that.

SunWuKong

12-02-2003, 05:41 PM

Maybe you were the exception? Can you relate some personal experiences to us in regards to your dating american girls as a fob. :>

what can i say, there were girls that liked me just the way i was, fobby and all, when i first moved to the US.

but anyway, that's the point exactly. there are plenty of non-Asian girls that would go for fobby guys, as long as the guys have the balls to take the initiative. and no, being fobby doesn't mean you don't have balls.

He does have somewhat of a point, if the culture difference is too great then it's going to be harder finding some common ground to be able to date.

sure, i'll agree with that. but passing off Americanisation as something to be achieved? sorry. no.

Plus it's not like asian accents or culture is stereotyped as "sexy" like a italian, french, or spanish person. The media portrays anyone with an asian accent as a person working in a liquor store, kung fu master, or a B-movie villain.

you gotta give girls more credit. they've got their own minds to make up.
and you know what, i would go as far to say that American-born Asians are more stigmatised by these negative stereotypes because a lot of fobby guys don't even know that these portrayals are supposed to be negative, that American girls have grown up with negative media portrayals of Asian people.

AliBabaIncorporated

12-02-2003, 06:14 PM

If you think Americanized means being able to blend in then that's nothing. But it is a totally different thing to build a set of American social skills that enables you to be a persuasive speaker, a schmoozer, a networker, etc.
Congratulations on being very proud of your social skills, but by this definition half of America isn't Americanized. Look in any computer science department across the nation and you'll find plenty of native-born white people who couldn't persuade a frog to jump and whose networking skills all require an ethernet cable. There's many US-born Asians like them. There's many foreign-born Asians like them too. It hasn't got three shits to do with being Americanized or not. It's called NERD and it's a multicultural phenomenon, though with different manifestations and adherents in every culture.

To a certain extent, social skills from one culture carry over. Not entirely, not even mostly, but somewhat. More importantly, the confidence that goes behind knowing you have good social skills in at least one culture will show through to people. There's a difference between a FOB who's also a nerd whether in USA or in China, and a FOB who's a hit in China but doesn't have many friends in the US yet due to lack of communicative ability.

achtungbaby

12-02-2003, 07:52 PM

yeah, Jook Sing. just keep learning about Asian cultures from Amy Tan books.I like Amy Tan. I felt so Asian after reading her books.

kitty

12-02-2003, 08:52 PM

I'm not making this reply to slag on SWK, as he's already settled down, just to clarify to you, Kittygirl, what I meant by my first couple posts in this thread.

Thanks Chester, that actually helped a lot... sorry to make you go through all that. Some of the stuff you posted I don't think should be classified as personal but... at this point, I think we should let SWK and PJS handle this matter privately...

Anyways, my main point was that SWK has every right to say what he wants and you have every right to shoot down... as long as he's not calling X person an idiot... which for the most part he wasn't.

AngryABCGirl

12-03-2003, 02:02 AM

I guess I mistyped or am trying to avoid using FOB to much. What I was trying to say is that an Asian man who was born and socialized overseas and comes to America must learn a whole new set of social skills to date the girls socialized in America. Dating is hard enough for American born any-male. So for a male immigrant to come over and have to relearn a new style of dating and get the American girl sounds like a nice achievement.

The flip side of it, is that American born Asian males should have a much better idea of what they're supposed to do to get a date so for them its not that much of an achievement.

Actually I think a lot of fobs got more confidence than Asian-American guys cause they haven't lived with a lot of stigma. That's my experience anyway.

Anyway, I'm tired and just browsing and have no idea what this thread is about, but dissing other people because you find that they aren't Americanized enough and cultured like you is not cool, the other way around is not cool at all either. Sometimes I don't understand why we keep debating this crap.

AngryABCGirl

12-03-2003, 02:04 AM

by the way, praise me now, because i can culturally fit in with a room full of white people in the US as well as local Chinese in Asia. go me. i'm special.

That isn't special. But at least you can understand being from two different worlds than what you think are the two different worlds.

I"m responding to random drunken posts because I need a break from working.

AngryABCGirl

12-03-2003, 02:05 AM

Congratulations on being very proud of your social skills, but by this definition half of America isn't Americanized. Look in any computer science department across the nation and you'll find plenty of native-born white people who couldn't persuade a frog to jump and whose networking skills all require an ethernet cable. There's many US-born Asians like them. There's many foreign-born Asians like them too. It hasn't got three shits to do with being Americanized or not. It's called NERD and it's a multicultural phenomenon, though with different manifestations and adherents in every culture.

To a certain extent, social skills from one culture carry over. Not entirely, not even mostly, but somewhat. More importantly, the confidence that goes behind knowing you have good social skills in at least one culture will show through to people. There's a difference between a FOB who's also a nerd whether in USA or in China, and a FOB who's a hit in China but doesn't have many friends in the US yet due to lack of communicative ability.

God I'm glad a constructive point was thrown in.

AngryABCGirl

12-03-2003, 02:08 AM

Are you seriously granting merit to someone based on the ethnicity of the person they are dating? wtf?

This is wrong on so many levels.

Say I were to date some ghetto East-Side crack hoe that is of latin descent. From what I quoted of you, I've made some sort of achievement, correct? (ok....EW.)

Or were you really trying to say that for an Asian male to date [someone of upstanding social status and/or intelligence], that would herald some achievement? At that point, what fucking difference does it make whether she's White, Brown, Yellow, or fucking polka-dotted?

You know if I found out an Asian guy was dating one of my white friends for that reason and using her as a trophy, I'd beat the shit out of him. This thread is full so full of stupidity I"m going to go to bed and not study anymore.

deez nuts

12-03-2003, 05:47 AM

i'd be more impressed if the guy went to a korean club and convinced a girl to go home with him. that's social skills.

awww really? i'm soooooo touched.

golden_buns

12-03-2003, 06:07 AM

that shit don't matter, brother buns. my nickname in college was the "international man" way before austin powers came to be. my game and pimp pimp playah playah skills transcends the international date line.

i prefer the nickname carvel though, cuz i had all 31 flavas.

edit: **pats self on the back**

shit, maybe if all girls in America were fluent in spanish then I wouldn't have spent my first year of college all lonely

deez nuts

12-03-2003, 06:10 AM

shit, maybe if all girls in America were fluent in spanish then I wouldn't have spent my first year of college all lonely

:cry:

golden_buns

12-03-2003, 06:14 AM

i never knew so much thought process along with so much cultural prerequisites and ramifications are involved in getting a date for friday night.

i didn't know it involved such complex intricacies like deriving bernoulli's law.

All this just to get laid.

I might as well save all the effort and go for a hooker

Proud_Jook_Sing

12-03-2003, 10:50 AM

i think this all started with PJS saying SWK had "pathetic thinking"

that really pissed him off after that.
No, SWK has some complex about Jook Sings and anything I say pisses him off. He likes to generalize and I kept it personal (but not childish like he did) because I am not going to lump non-ABCs with SWK even though he likes to lump all ABCs together.

In no thread have I said ABCs are superior to others, SWK just reads that in everything and spouts that in every reply to color my responses. (Look at the title of this thread he made.) I get pissed off because of SWK being SWK where's its always ABCs vs. whatever.

Merit vs. Mgmt Potential (http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=11006)
This is what I mean by having real Americanized social skills and it applies to whether you are ABC, 1.5, or even white American. My point is if you think just fitting in makes you Americanized you're not going to get far professionally unless the job requries no social skills and has no office politics.

As you can see from the beginning of this linked thread I have stated I feel handicapped in this area and I do not want my fellow Asians to neglect developing their finer social skills. If I had the social skills I advocate then my career would be a hell of a lot better than it is now.

The purpose of posting that job description is to show that developing those social skills employers want does not come from naturally being in America, it takes development and practice. SWK can certainly develop those skills and if he thinks it can come naturally from living in America then kudos to him because I certainly think it is very very hard to develop.

um...right. we impose the glass ceilings on ourselves.

thank god you didn't become a lawyer.
Kasia, I am very disappointed in you. You're a lawyer and there was no way you could deduce that from what I said plus you decided to make it personal. I simply said that there is no glass ceiling if you have great social skills. You've posted in my other thread Merit vs. Mgmt Potential (http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=11006) so you know where I was coming from.

Is there a glass ceiling? Probably in some places. If your work does not involve your ethnicity (like dealing with Chinese clients or suppliers) then
you will rely on your technical and social skills to climb the corporate ladder or make partner, etc. like other Americans. Andrea Jung, CEO Avon, has excellent people skills like all CEOs must have to deal with political and people issues.

Why is there such a vehemence against Americanization and why do you think it must supplant your ethnicity? I'm just trying to advise my fellow Asians that having a higher awareness/skills of American social norms is beneficial to your career. It's not rocket science, substitute America with another country and Asian with another race and it still holds true.

Most of you are at the beginning of your careers and advancement/promotions come rapidly because of your great technical skills or work ethic, etc. Penetrating the management layer where office politics and social skills are vital to manage superiors, subordinates and peers is were the difficult times will come. I've always joked I am politically tone deaf. Well, it's not funny anymore because I need those skills to move up.

SunWuKong

12-03-2003, 10:56 AM

That isn't special.

yeah, i was just being sarcastic.

applehead

12-03-2003, 11:01 AM

go me. i'm special.

yes. special
:wub:

applehead

12-03-2003, 11:01 AM

If all this were true, I would care more about the incredibly articulate posts Emporer Mike makes rather than ponder the 8 incher in his pants.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

kimpossible

12-03-2003, 11:03 AM

what possesses me to write shit like that?

deez nuts

12-03-2003, 11:08 AM

what possesses me to write shit like that?

:wacko:

Emperor_Mike

12-03-2003, 11:08 AM

I think we all need to sit back, take a deep breath, and consider the merits behind this view. While you do that I must say that in my opinion, this discussion has nothing worthy in it. The issue of objectifying people and writing off whole masses of individuals who do not have the "right" social skills or who do not fit some preconceived notion of "normality" is a positively abhorrent practise that no one in their right mind should indulge in. Why is it so difficult for people to realise or to see that a person is just a person and that everyone has the right to be themselves without someone coming along and saying that their actions do not constitute as being normal? Quite frankly, none of you have the prerogative to dictate what others should be. None of you have a special gift to make others who do not conform to your social views feel as though they're any less of a human being.

In the months I've spent here on YW I have been appalled on numerous occasions and this thread ranks as one of the most despicable theories of social segregation I've ever had the misfortune to read. It's people who defend, promote, and support ideas like these who are doing their part in promoting the degredation of society. I, for one, am thoroughly disgusted.

kasia

12-03-2003, 11:14 AM

Kasia, I am very disappointed in you. You're a lawyer and there was no way you could deduce that from what I said plus you decided to make it personal. I simply said that there is no glass ceiling if you have great social skills.

you simply said that there is no glass ceiling if you have great social skills.

no glass ceiling if you have great social skills.

in other words: if you have great social skills, there will be no glass ceiling.

flip and negate: if there is a glass ceiling, it's because you don't have great social skills.

edit: h.h. and rogmok - the 2 taking the lsat this saturday - please proofread my work and correct as necessary.

*repeating in head several times*

this statement necessarily implies that the glass ceiling is based on social skills and not race or some other discriminatory factor. thus indicating that the glass ceiling is based on the individual's deficiency and *not* some bias or discriminatory attitude that the hiring/promoting partner may hold.

the only reason you would be disappointed in me is because you have poor logic skills.

Fireblade

12-03-2003, 11:18 AM

All this just to get laid.

I might as well save all the effort and go for a hooker

Remember to bring protection. Like in Lesuire Suit Larry... you have sex with a hooker with no rubber... and you die. :excl:

AliBabaIncorporated

12-03-2003, 11:40 AM

no glass ceiling if you have great social skills.

flip and negate.

if you don't have great social skills, there will be a glass ceiling.
wait up ... define two predicates S(x) and G(x), where S(x) means x has good social skills, and G(x) means x suffers from the effects of the glass ceiling. no glass ceiling if you have great social skills is the same as if you have great social skills, then there's no glass ceiling, or:
(1) for all X, if S(x), then Not G(x).

It's invalid to conclude from that statement "if you don't have great social skills, then there's a glass ceiling," which is equivalent to:
(2) for all x, if Not S(x), then G(x)

"If A Then B" doesn't imply "If Not A Then Not B." The only thing we can conclude from (1) is:
(3) for all x, if G(x), then Not S(x)
i.e. If the glass ceiling applies to X, then he doesn't have good social skills.

However, this means PJS' statement (1) implies a conclusion I suppose you'd find equally untrue:
(4) Not Exist x s.t. S(x) & G(x)
There exists no x such that he has good social skills AND the glass ceiling applies to him. If you can point to an individual with good social skills suffering from the effects of a glass ceiling, this controverts (4) and as a result proves PJS' assumption (1) to be untrue.

SunWuKong

12-03-2003, 11:52 AM

No, SWK has some complex about Jook Sings and anything I say pisses him off. He likes to generalize and I kept it personal (but not childish like he did) because I am not going to lump non-ABCs with SWK even though he likes to lump all ABCs together.

In no thread have I said ABCs are superior to others, SWK just reads that in everything and spouts that in every reply to color my responses. (Look at the title of this thread he made.) I get pissed off because of SWK being SWK where's its always ABCs vs. whatever.

Merit vs. Mgmt Potential (http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=11006)
This is what I mean by having real Americanized social skills and it applies to whether you are ABC, 1.5, or even white American. My point is if you think just fitting in makes you Americanized you're not going to get far professionally unless the job requries no social skills and has no office politics.

As you can see from the beginning of this linked thread I have stated I feel handicapped in this area and I do not want my fellow Asians to neglect developing their finer social skills. If I had the social skills I advocate then my career would be a hell of a lot better than it is now.

The purpose of posting that job description is to show that developing those social skills employers want does not come from naturally being in America, it takes development and practice. SWK can certainly develop those skills and if he thinks it can come naturally from living in America then kudos to him because I certainly think it is very very hard to develop.

i don't have time to respond to you right now, so maybe tonight i'll do it.
but why the hell are you even talking about career skills? that wasn't even your original comments. should i split this thread again and talk about fobs in the work place?

kasia

12-03-2003, 11:59 AM

wait up ... define two predicates S(x) and G(x), where S(x) means x has good social skills, and G(x) means x suffers from the effects of the glass ceiling. no glass ceiling if you have great social skills is the same as if you have great social skills, then there's no glass ceiling, or:
(1) for all X, if S(x), then Not G(x).

It's invalid to conclude from that statement "if you don't have great social skills, then there's a glass ceiling," which is equivalent to:
(2) for all x, if Not S(x), then G(x)

"If A Then B" doesn't imply "If Not A Then Not B." The only thing we can conclude from (1) is:
(3) for all x, if G(x), then Not S(x)
i.e. If the glass ceiling applies to X, then he doesn't have good social skills.

However, this means PJS' statement (1) implies a conclusion I suppose you'd find equally untrue:
(4) Not Exist x s.t. S(x) & G(x)
There exists no x such that he has good social skills AND the glass ceiling applies to him. If you can point to an individual with good social skills suffering from the effects of a glass ceiling, this controverts (4) and as a result proves PJS' assumption (1) to be untrue.

you're right - you responded before i made the edits - check the post again.

if a then b would only imply if not b then not a.

SunWuKong

12-03-2003, 12:03 PM

[smartass]wait up ... define two predicates S(x) and G(x), where S(x) means x has good social skills, and G(x) means x suffers from the effects of the glass ceiling. no glass ceiling if you have great social skills is the same as if you have great social skills, then there's no glass ceiling, or:
(1) for all X, if S(x), then Not G(x).

It's invalid to conclude from that statement "if you don't have great social skills, then there's a glass ceiling," which is equivalent to:
(2) for all x, if Not S(x), then G(x)

"If A Then B" doesn't imply "If Not A Then Not B." The only thing we can conclude from (1) is:
(3) for all x, if G(x), then Not S(x)
i.e. If the glass ceiling applies to X, then he doesn't have good social skills.

no that's wrong.
she's saying:
(S(x) -> not G(x)) -> (G(x) -> not S(x))
which is valid

in other words: if you have great social skills, there will be no glass ceiling.

flip and negate: if there is a glass ceiling, it's because you don't have great social skills.

Proud_Jook_Sing

12-03-2003, 12:03 PM

the only reason you would be disappointed in me is because you have poor logic skills.
No, I think I have good reason to be disappointed in you and its not about nitpicking your logic.

AliBaba did what I was about to do including the last statement so I thank him for that.

My original statement was to say that with really good social skills you can usually penetrate glass ceilings. Nowadays in America, most of glass ceilings we would encounter are not consciously imposed or overt, but are rather porous.

Proud_Jook_Sing

12-03-2003, 12:05 PM

i don't have time to respond to you right now, so maybe tonight i'll do it.
but why the hell are you even talking about career skills? that wasn't even your original comments. should i split this thread again and talk about fobs in the work place?
Do what you want. You seem to be good at splitting threads to shape the discussion to your own personal agenda. Like I said, I'm done with you.

SunWuKong

12-03-2003, 12:06 PM

you're right - you responded before i made the edits - check the post again.

if a then b would only imply if not b then not a.

oh you changed your post. :p

>:^|

12-03-2003, 12:10 PM

My original statement was to say that with really good social skills you can usually penetrate glass ceilings. Nowadays in America, most of glass ceilings we would encounter are not consciously imposed or overt, but are rather porous.

The qualifier makes all the difference.

But I believe that the glass ceiling exists. Do I believe that it is overt racism? No. But subconscious racism is even more difficult to penetrate.

ChinaLama

12-03-2003, 12:13 PM

No, I think I have good reason to be disappointed in you and its not about nitpicking your logic.

AliBaba did what I was about to do including the last statement so I thank him for that.

My original statement was to say that with really good social skills you can usually penetrate glass ceilings. Nowadays in America, most of glass ceilings we would encounter are not consciously imposed or overt, but are rather porous.

I would disagree. A glass ceiling is a glass ceiling BECAUSE it's not a phenomenon that mere talent/ social skills can break. For instance, there's statistical data that shows that in universities, non-Asian Americans have almost 3 times the number of administrators compared to their # of non-administrators as Asian Americans do. E.G., for every 100 Black faculty, there are approximately 20 Black administrators. The ratios for other ethnic groups vary from about 16-18/100, except for Asian Americans, where it's around 6 Asian American administrators for every 100 Asian American faculty. I don't think the fact that SUCH a huge discrepancy can be solely or even mostly attributed to "lack of social skills."

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs98/98228apb.pdf

Proud_Jook_Sing

12-03-2003, 12:14 PM

The qualifier makes all the difference.

But I believe that the glass ceiling exists. Do I believe that it is overt racism? No. But subconscious racism is even more difficult to penetrate.
I agree except I think subconscious racism is more pervasive but easier to penetrate.

kasia

12-03-2003, 12:14 PM

No, I think I have good reason to be disappointed in you and its not about nitpicking your logic.

AliBaba did what I was about to do including the last statement so I thank him for that.

My original statement was to say that with really good social skills you can usually penetrate glass ceilings. Nowadays in America, most of glass ceilings we would encounter are not consciously imposed or overt, but are rather porous.

interesting that you didn't understand alibaba's post.
or maybe not so interesting.

here's his analysis of your statement:
However, this means PJS' statement (1) implies a conclusion I suppose you'd find equally untrue:
(4) Not Exist x s.t. S(x) & G(x)
There exists no x such that he has good social skills AND the glass ceiling applies to him. If you can point to an individual with good social skills suffering from the effects of a glass ceiling, this controverts (4) and as a result proves PJS' assumption (1) to be untrue.

applehead

12-03-2003, 12:15 PM

I agree except I think subconscious racism is more pervasive but easier to penetrate.
really?
how so?

kasia

12-03-2003, 12:18 PM

I agree except I think subconscious racism is more pervasive but easier to penetrate.

then you're not agreeing b/c the very point of his statement was that subconcious racism is more *difficult* to penetrate.

(does anyone else find this funny? :beerchug: )

>:^|

12-03-2003, 12:20 PM

I agree except I think subconscious racism is more pervasive but easier to penetrate.

Nah, I think if people can't even face their racism there's no hope.

From my personal experience, and from my look at the stats (such as those ChinaLama presented and others), if people have a racially-associated belief about you it's nearly impossible to dispel.

Hey, I just noticed that subhead is a personal remark directed at someone. Can somebody please fix my previous post to delete it? I really dislike personal remarks, although I'm inclined to them at times. :dry:

SunWuKong

12-03-2003, 12:21 PM

I would disagree. A glass ceiling is a glass ceiling BECAUSE it's not a phenomenon that mere talent/ social skills can break. For instance, there's statistical data that shows that in universities, non-Asian Americans have almost 3 times the number of administrators compared to their # of non-administrators as Asian Americans do. E.G., for every 100 Black faculty, there are approximately 20 Black administrators. The ratios for other ethnic groups vary from about 16-18/100, except for Asian Americans, where it's around 6 Asian American administrators for every 100 Asian American faculty. I don't think the fact that SUCH a huge discrepancy can be solely or even mostly attributed to "lack of social skills."

http://nces.ed.gov/pubs98/98228apb.pdf

right. i don't know if PJS really knows the meaning of "glass ceiling".

SunWuKong

12-03-2003, 12:22 PM

Like I said, I'm done with you.

good. be done then.

kasia

12-03-2003, 12:24 PM

right. i don't know if PJS really knows the meaning of "glass ceiling".

i agree. except that i do know that PJS really knows the meaning of "glass ceiling."

(cheap shot. sorry.)

kitty

12-03-2003, 12:25 PM

oh my god... this is getting circular... can someone close this thread?

applehead

12-03-2003, 12:25 PM

Nah, I think if people can't even face their racism there's no hope.

that's how i feel.
if it's subconscious, how can someone
outside of your subconsiousness
penetrate it?

applehead

12-03-2003, 12:27 PM

keep it open.
some of us are asking valid questions.

ChinaLama

12-03-2003, 12:27 PM

ok guys, when you say you're done arguing with one another, please keep your word. :-) I don't want to close this thread just because of a few arguments.

AngryABCGirl

12-03-2003, 12:28 PM

deez nuts

12-03-2003, 12:29 PM

that's how i feel.
if it's subconscious, how can someone
outside of your subconsiousness
penetrate it?

i have conscious control over penetrating subconsciously. i really do.

lethal

12-03-2003, 12:32 PM

I'm not going to even try to deconstruct the logical flaws in these arguments at this point.

kasia

12-03-2003, 12:33 PM

i have conscious control over penetrating subconsciously. i really do.

i agree. except that i think that you don't.

serious now - should we start a thread on glass ceilings - b/c i think this thread was originally about how asian guys who can date non-asians should be proud of themselves or something like that.

Chris

12-03-2003, 12:40 PM

I'm not going to even try to deconstruct the logical flaws in these arguments at this point.

werd. This is way off tangent now.

Emperor_Mike

12-03-2003, 12:41 PM

i agree. except that i think that you don't.

serious now - should we start a thread on glass ceilings - b/c i think this thread was originally about how asian guys who can date non-asians should be proud of themselves or something like that.

"Proud of what?" should be question. The only reason why there should be pride is if Asian men (or women) perceive themselves to be in an inferior position in terms of relationships with other races. Personally, I don't buy that and refuse to believe that just because your genetic makeup is Asian makes you of less value in the eyes of other people. Perhaps this is one instance where I'm going to take the issue not by the facts (since in the present case it's downright revolting) but by principle largely because if I were to base my views on what is being practised right now I can't for the life of me find anything worth defending. This entire matter is one ugly picture of social segregation and how outdated views are still being upheld by both sides.

kitty

12-03-2003, 01:09 PM

I think the problem i have with the statement is that it seems to say that getting with a non-Asian is some sort of achievement, which inherently elevates non-Asian women higher as a 'prize' than Asian women, while also managing to turn dating, yet again, into a way to make the ultimate goal self-serving rather than about mutual companionship.

Women, asian or not, aren't supposed to be fought over like seagulls over mouldy bread. Getting with (whatever ethnicity) women doesn't make you 'better' or 'worse' than anyone else... god, it just isn't that deep.

and the part about the circular arguing -- that was the whole FOBs vs. ABCs... which will just go on forever at this rate.

Emperor_Mike

12-03-2003, 01:14 PM

deez nuts

12-03-2003, 02:26 PM

i agree. except that i think that you don't.

:laugh:

Proud_Jook_Sing

12-03-2003, 03:54 PM

ChinaLama

12-03-2003, 04:10 PM

PJS, didn't you say you were done? :)

In all seriously, please, everyone, let's get away from personal arguments.

SunWuKong

12-03-2003, 04:30 PM

Which Kasia am I supposed to think is the real Kasia?

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Chris

12-03-2003, 04:37 PM

kasia

12-03-2003, 06:15 PM

Kasia, I don't think you understand why I am disappointed in you.

Your tirade of personal insults makes you quite a hippocrit since you PM'd me a week or two ago to tell me that you're not trying to be personal with your replies and now I see this. Which Kasia am I supposed to think is the real Kasia?

that was before you demonstrated your extreme bias against fobs. i usually give people the benefit of the doubt in the beginning and like to welcome people - regardless of their political or social views - to yw. once they fail to respect our members, however, they have overstayed their welcome. with almost each of your posts, you have showed utter disrespect for every yw member who was not born in the united states. check out this thread and the responses you have received. and though i've only considered the idea before, i am highly suspicious that you are lying about going to law school at u. va. because: 1) you cannot follow a logical argument, and 2) you spelled 'hypocrite' wrong.

The qualifier makes all the difference.

But I believe that the glass ceiling exists. Do I believe that it is overt racism? No. But subconscious racism is even more difficult to penetrate.
So I replied:
"I agree except I think subconscious racism is more pervasive but easier to penetrate."

Is it so hard to understand that I agreed to the other parts of >:^|'s post EXCEPT for the last? Really, you're acting like a child.

which part? that the qualifier makes all the difference? what does that sentence mean to you? wouldn't you believe, then, that the glass ceiling is a *huge* problem for our community? why, then, would you write that there would be no glass ceiling if we could master our social skills. and recall, you worded that last sentence in absolute terms.

For those wondering, subconscious racism is different from hidden racism. A person can think they are not racist but have some racist thoughts that they are unaware is racist, i.e. stereotypes. IMHO, it's easier to change the mind of someone like this than someone who is racist whether overt or hidden.

i think applehead asked you for your reasoning behind this. it's a legit question.

Proud_Jook_Sing

12-03-2003, 07:15 PM

I can see your point with regard to PJS's earlier post.

But, as I've said before, you yourself have a habit of painting ABCs with a broad, condescending brush.

The quickness with which you sometimes take things personal when this topic comes up strikes me as unproductive, in general, and unseemly, given that you're a moderator.

Which isn't to say that I'm above this sort of thing. But...I'm not a moderator...and a disrespectful "jook sing" besides.

Anyway, you might want to tone that kind of shit down because you're engaging in the same sort of scornful generalizations that you often complain about.

This sort of shit, for example, is totally unnecessary and takes things to an ugly place that even PJS had the dignity to avoid:
So I have extreme bias against FOBs and SWK does not have vs. ABCs? Go reread the posts yourself Kasia, you and SWK have made things childish with personal attacks. I have always stated that my responses were for SWK's opinions alone whereas he always generalizes to all ABCs. Now you go on and call me a liar which is totally uncalled for in addition to nitpicking statements instead of getting the bigger picture.

You want an example? I say," Good social skills can penetrate a glass ceiling." The big picture statement is that some prejudices can be overcome by have good relational and persuasive skills to change the mind of your antagonist. Instead you nitpick it into its logical construction but worse you generalize that I do not think there is a glass ceiling, etc.

No, I do not have extreme bias against FOBs, I have an extreme bias against SWK and his generalizations and only after he failed to keep it civil.

Shame on you.

ChinaLama

12-03-2003, 07:18 PM

this exchange is gonna continue forever. PJS/SWK/kasie, if you want to continue your discussion, please use PM. Otherwise the thread becomes a conversation of 3, kind of like a classroom where technically everyone can participate but 3 people end up doing all the talking.

kasia

12-03-2003, 07:23 PM

applehead

12-03-2003, 07:25 PM

fair enough. but let's talk about how it's easier to penetrate subconscious racism. can we do that?

yeah. i'm kinda curious about that.
not to "nitpick" what johk sing was saying.
i'm just wondering how that's possible.

ChinaLama

12-03-2003, 07:27 PM

fair enough. but let's talk about how it's easier to penetrate subconscious racism. can we do that?

On the one hand, because a person's racism is subconscious, perhaps it's weaker and the person is more willing to bend once he's educated with facts.

On the other hand, I can see how penetrating subconscious racism would be harder. A lot of times, a person will refuse to believe he's racist because he doesn't "hate Asians." You may tell him some facts but he may just go, "well, that may be triue statistically but in MY case... all Asians I've met really ARE too technical/ not articulate enough/ etc."

kasia

12-03-2003, 07:31 PM

On the one hand, because a person's racism is subconscious, perhaps it's weaker and the person is more willing to bend once he's educated with facts.

On the other hand, I can see how penetrating subconscious racism would be harder. A lot of times, a person will refuse to believe he's racist because he doesn't "hate Asians." You may tell him some facts but he may just go, "well, that may be triue statistically but in MY case... all Asians I've met really ARE too technical/ not articulate enough/ etc."

like...this is just an example for the sake of dicussion, i swear...

wouldn't proud_jook_sing's subconscious bias towards fobs be more difficult to overcome b/c he can't even see it?

applehead

12-03-2003, 07:32 PM

like...this is just an example for the sake of dicussion, i swear...

wouldn't proud_jook_sing's subconscious bias towards fobs be more difficult to overcome b/c he can't even see it?

yes.

kasia

12-03-2003, 07:38 PM

2nd question - can't we just conclude that it's wrong to stereotype?

i'm sure there are plenty of 'fobs' who can date non-asians. i can name a number of my friends off the top of my head.

similarly, there are plenty of americanized asians who can date fobs.

the way we can end this whole 'abc v. fobs' is if we can accept that we really don't know the other group that well - and that our assumptions about them may be wrong. why is that so difficult to do? is having a sense of superiority really that important?

ChinaLama

12-03-2003, 07:42 PM

on the other hand, and not to attack SWK cuz he's my manwhore idol (ok that sounds wrong), but what I see in a lot of BOB's is a subconscious-- actually sometimes outright-- prejudice against ABC's and 1.5'ers for being too twinkish. For instance, they'll act like they know everything about Chinese culture, and then they'll go into how it's "shameful" for a person of Chinese descent not to know Chinese. And that's hard to outroot cuz the whole "it's a shame to lose your roots" argument is pretty popular, and something a lot of us have been hit w/ at some point by some people in our lives, so sometimes because of this subconscious rooting, it's hard for even ABC's and 1.5'ers to be fully confident in their integrity as people to fight back.

So some of the defensiveness and reaction against FOBs and BOB's can be seen in that context.

kasia

12-03-2003, 07:51 PM

SunWuKong

12-03-2003, 11:38 PM

yeah, i lost patience and i crossed the line. i apologise. am i biased? yeah probably. but let's get it straight, if i'm biased at all, it is against people who have very stubbornly Americanised attitudes. plenty of members here have declared that they don't know much about Asian/Chinese culture and languages, and i have not jumped down their throats for it. on the other hand, you will notice that i only reacted to PJS after he made some asinine comments. i shouldn't have made such broad generalisations about ABCs because i do personally know ABCs who do not fit my generalisations. PJS manifests many of the negative stereotypical traits of ABCs and i made those offensive generalisations out of spite. for that, i apologise.

the major beef i have with PJS's attitude, off the top of my head:

1) he uses his parents (who, correct me if i'm wrong, were probably born in the 40s) and text-book Chinese cultural lessons as references to how FOBs are. for example, he thinks that Chinese people traditionally don't "date", and the fact that they do now is because of Westernisation (PJS, is that supposed to lesson the value of the fact that they do currently date?). which really is news to me because my own grandparents had a courtship and they were born in 1920s rural China. from my own grandfather's mouth, he told me that my grandmother was selling something on the streets and he kept trying to talk to her when they first met.

2) he uses American standards to pass judgements on FOBs, resulting in serial instead of parallel comparisons between FOBs and Americans. for example, according to him, not being Americanised means "socially inept".

3) he wears his Americanisation like a badge of honour.

etc etc.

TyroneK(prettypretty)

12-04-2003, 12:07 AM

2nd question - can't we just conclude that it's wrong to stereotype?
Kasie, how can we continue to make easy generalized judgments about people if we conclude stereotypes are wrong? That requires thinking. I hate thinking. Thinking means I might conclude that I'm not as great, morally, and ideologically consistent as I think I am. It might expose my own faults which contribute to my own unhappiness. God knows how painful that is. That means I might even have to either accept my imperfection or do change myself to a form closer to who I fancy myself to be.

So stop poisoning our minds with crack talk.

AngryABCGirl

12-04-2003, 12:34 AM

Hey man, this thread sucks and it's denegerating into personal crap.

My own opinion, there's too much bullshit and too big of a spectrum to generalize any group. And in every groupm there are assholes, too many assholes.

As as an minority group, isn't this us fucking each other in the way we essentially hate being fucked aorund with, not being able to just be human beings without being generalized?

Just a thought.

kimpossible

12-04-2003, 07:11 AM

Shame on you.

what? :laugh:

deez nuts

12-04-2003, 08:09 AM

you all are naughty naughty boys and girls.

kasia

12-04-2003, 08:09 AM

stop it. i'm feeling embarassed.

>:^|

12-04-2003, 08:12 AM

Wasn't there a thread on ABCs and FOBs previously? (And would somebody please enlighten me as to what a "BOB" is?)

You know, I think sometimes that the strain between ABCs and FOBs represents the fears and insecurities each group has about itself, projected out at the other group. Fear of losing culture. Beliefs about American superiority. Fitting in. Asserting yourself in a way that defends something you can't change but that by its very nature attacks another group.

I feel this way about racial hatred, as well.

And I think AznBuffGrl has the most accurate summation of this when she says the following:

Hey man, this thread sucks and it's denegerating into personal crap.

My own opinion, there's too much bullshit and too big of a spectrum to generalize any group. And in every groupm there are assholes, too many assholes.

As as an minority group, isn't this us fucking each other in the way we essentially hate being fucked aorund with, not being able to just be human beings without being generalized?

Just a thought.

kasia

12-04-2003, 08:16 AM

Wasn't there a thread on ABCs and FOBs previously? (And would somebody please enlighten me as to what a "BOB" is?)

You know, I think sometimes that the strain between ABCs and FOBs represents the fears and insecurities each group has about itself, projected out at the other group. Fear of losing culture. Beliefs about American superiority. Fitting in. Asserting yourself in a way that defends something you can't change but that by its very nature attacks another group.

I feel this way about racial hatred, as well.

kinda like self-hatred? i feel that abc's criticize those qualities in fob's that they are afraid that they themselves are believed by the majority to possess.

here's another thought - do non-Asians even make the distinction between fobs and abcs? at a job interview, for example, they may see that i speak perfect English, but this won't necessarily stop them from judging me by the color of my skin. so, really, it serves no purpose for me to try to distinguish myself from fobs, since they won't notice anyway.

missmeow

12-04-2003, 08:56 AM

Only stupid people would not notice the difference between FOBs and everyone else, IMO.

kitty

12-04-2003, 09:08 AM

Only stupid people would not notice the difference between FOBs and everyone else, IMO.

I disagree... I mean, aside from the fact that many non-Asians don't even know what the term 'FOB' means, ask yourself how you really know a person is a FOB or an ABC (and how many times you've been wrong)...

The categories of FOBs and ABCs ARE cultural generalizations... I mean, we think of a FOB as a person who dresses a certain way, acts a certain way, drinks bubble tea. And that's not always the traits that every "fresh off the boat" immigrant actually shares.

Non-Asians are less able to discern an Asian person's language capabilities, and the subtle difference between FOB and ABC mode of dress or way of carrying themselves... I don't think that me or SWK going into a job interview are going to get any privileges or disadvantages that differ *because* of where we were born. We might share similar advantage/disadvantages because of the colour of our skin, but I don't think non-Asians would be able to differentiate any further than that, on average.

ChinaLama

12-04-2003, 09:12 AM

The categories of FOBs and ABCs ARE cultural generalizations... I mean, we think of a FOB as a person who dresses a certain way, acts a certain way, drinks bubble tea.

you forgot, squatting. Shows just how much you know about categories. :p

kimpossible

12-04-2003, 09:20 AM

Wasn't there a thread on ABCs and FOBs previously? (And would somebody please enlighten me as to what a "BOB" is?)

Back On the Boat. Like so many enlightened folks have told us: We're going back to China, China, China. Going back to China, hmm, I don't think so.

Really, it's like a 1.5er thinking of at least partially repatriating to birth country and culture rather than continue on in the US, Canada, etc.

Craig

12-04-2003, 09:25 AM

(And would somebody please enlighten me as to what a "BOB" is?)

SWK is a "BOB" - back on the boat.

Edit - Damn, HH responds while I'm reading through the thread.

kitty

12-04-2003, 09:29 AM

oh, so there's actually a difference between a FOB and a BOB?

you forgot, squatting. Shows just how much you know about categories.

:laugh:

Craig

12-04-2003, 09:30 AM

Back On the Boat. Like so many enlightened folks have told us: We're going back to China, China, China. Going back to China, hmm, I don't think so.

Really, it's like a 1.5er thinking of at least partially repatriating to birth country and culture rather than continue on in the US, Canada, etc.
What's wrong with going back to China ? I've been there, I would rather live and work there (and I was born in the USA). If it wasn't for my horrendous Chinese language skills I would have made my way there already.

kimpossible

12-04-2003, 09:35 AM

Only stupid people would not notice the difference between FOBs and everyone else, IMO.

Ta-dah!

*unveils 1.5 generation model*

Ladies and gentlemen, behold the 1.5 genner! Neither fob, nor ABC this model has characteristics of both. I'd continue this bit but I've already subjected everyone to an obscure old school LL Cool J reference.

kimpossible

12-04-2003, 09:37 AM

What's wrong with going back to China ? I've been there, I would rather live and work there (and I was born in the USA). If it wasn't for my horrendous Chinese language skills I would have made my way there already.

tongue in cheek reference to "Go Back to China!" usually followed or preceded by "Chink!" or "Get out of my country!" sumpin like that.

kasia

12-04-2003, 09:38 AM

Only stupid people would not notice the difference between FOBs and everyone else, IMO.

in san francisco, a lot of chinese abc's still grow up with accents. not sure why this phenomenon exists. a lot of my close friends from san francisco have slightly fobby accents. nothing extreme. but yeh, some people would think that they were fobs.

TyroneK(prettypretty)

12-04-2003, 09:38 AM

Back On the Boat. Like so many enlightened folks have told us: We're going back to China, China, China. Going back to China, hmm, I don't think so.
http://953party.com/images/artists/ll_cool_j_c.jpg

Best allusion ever. Ladies Love Hello Hapa.

kasia

12-04-2003, 09:39 AM

we're going going back back to cali cali.

ChinaLama

12-04-2003, 09:48 AM

so i suppose if some 1.5'ers go BOB, what are us twinkie 1.5'ers called? ROB? Ran Off the Boat.

missmeow

12-04-2003, 09:56 AM

Eh, I guess I'm thinking of FOB in terms of the stereotypical FOB type demeanor, lack of English, etc. Of course, people can be FOBs who appear to be ABCs and vice versa, but how are they going to be classified by anyone who doesn't know what exactly they are (including other Asians)? In other words, can FOB be an actual classification while at the same time being a state of being regardless of birth place?

Chris

12-04-2003, 10:03 AM

in san francisco, a lot of chinese abc's still grow up with accents. not sure why this phenomenon exists. a lot of my close friends from san francisco have slightly fobby accents. nothing extreme. but yeh, some people would think that they were fobs.

IE me. Been here for 22 years but then again I spent 13 years in Chinese school learning Cantonese and Mandarin and mix in 7 years of japanese. errr..... never mind.

>:^|

12-04-2003, 10:36 AM

kinda like self-hatred? i feel that abc's criticize those qualities in fob's that they are afraid that they themselves are believed by the majority to possess.

here's another thought - do non-Asians even make the distinction between fobs and abcs? at a job interview, for example, they may see that i speak perfect English, but this won't necessarily stop them from judging me by the color of my skin. so, really, it serves no purpose for me to try to distinguish myself from fobs, since they won't notice anyway.

Yeah, taking your self-hatred and making it hatred of another group.

Only stupid people would not notice the difference between FOBs and everyone else, IMO.

My cynical view of this would be that there are a lot of stupid people out there.

At interviews I try not to get into the whole heritage/ethnicity/race thing, just because I think it's completely improper. The trick is getting people to realize it's improper without them realizing you think they're assholes. Of course, a lot of times I've already decided I don't want the job.

But it ticks me off to have people look at my resume and then ask if I speak fluent English, or when people note that I have just the "slightest accent" and that I speak so well. They are seeing what they want to see. They are completely missing what's there in front of them.

But even if I were an FOB ... shouldn't my experience, education and qualifications count? What the heck difference does it make where I was born, how long I've lived here, what my first language is? (By the way, I've been asked all these questions at interviews.)

Lastly, I just feel sad when I see ABCs and FOBs going at it. One group should see its future and the other group should see its past. Both are equally important.