military capabilities of Asian powers.

[Proud_Jook_Sing]

A single US aircraft carrier battlegroup in coordination with Taiwanese defense forces is plenty to stop an invasion. (Battle groups also include subs which China has no chance of detecting.) Unlike Iraq and Afghanistan which are Army affairs, the Navy is pretty much idling at the moment.

Amphibious invasions are horribly tricky affairs. And Taiwan has plenty of patriot batteries for missile defense.

[VV o n g B a]

A single US aircraft carrier battlegroup in coordination with Taiwanese defense forces is plenty to stop an invasion. (Battle groups also include subs which China has no chance of detecting.) Unlike Iraq and Afghanistan which are Army affairs, the Navy is pretty much idling at the moment.

Amphibious invasions are horribly tricky affairs. And Taiwan has plenty of patriot batteries for missile defense.
i wasn't arguing the strategic reality. i was arguing US public perception. i realize if the US decided to defend taiwan, things would probably go pretty badly for the chinese. but i've heard some rumors that suggest if taiwan declares independence, the taiwanese military would stage a coup... in that case, the US wouldn't even really have much of a say in the whole affair except economically.

[Made in China]

A single US aircraft carrier battlegroup in coordination with Taiwanese defense forces is plenty to stop an invasion. (Battle groups also include subs which China has no chance of detecting.) Unlike Iraq and Afghanistan which are Army affairs, the Navy is pretty much idling at the moment.

Amphibious invasions are horribly tricky affairs. And Taiwan has plenty of patriot batteries for missile defense.
Uh......http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/EK25Ad01.html

China's Ming Class Sub went into Japanese Waters undetected. If I am correct, Japan is more technologically advanced, and is equipped with plenty of American hardware?

The Chinese are laughing there asses off at the Americans and the Japanese.

Well, Taiwan is the 12th largest economy, which is helpful to China.
Bush said during his inauguration: The US will do "whatever it takes" to defend Taiwan.

This is the perfect time to invade Taiwan, since US is already in TWO WARS already, and the Americans are fed up with Bush's war crap.

Taiwanese are Chinese am I correct?

lol, read the article, its SURPRISING!:dance:

[Made in China]

GASP! You called me MIC! .....

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/EK25Ad01.html

[Ogumo]

A single US aircraft carrier battlegroup in coordination with Taiwanese defense forces is plenty to stop an invasion. (Battle groups also include subs which China has no chance of detecting.) Unlike Iraq and Afghanistan which are Army affairs, the Navy is pretty much idling at the moment.

Amphibious invasions are horribly tricky affairs. And Taiwan has plenty of patriot batteries for missile defense.


Exactly.

[Made in China]

for what purpose? symbolic?
Symbolically, it means, Made In China (MIC) someone people from another asian forum calls me this. :blush:

Originally Posted by Proud_Jook_Sing
A single US aircraft carrier battlegroup in coordination with Taiwanese defense forces is plenty to stop an invasion. (Battle groups also include subs which China has no chance of detecting.) Unlike Iraq and Afghanistan which are Army affairs, the Navy is pretty much idling at the moment.

Amphibious invasions are horribly tricky affairs. And Taiwan has plenty of patriot batteries for missile defense.

nah, Chinese subs can get passed anything, even American hardware.

Did anyone go to that link I showed? Chinese sub went into Japanese territory undetected. Japan used US-made P-3C Orion aircraft, allegedly the most advanced anti-submarine scouts in the world.
It was undetected until China's national flag was hoisted after its surfacing.

It was a diesel powered Ming Class sub.

heres the link, Again. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/EK25Ad01.html

[Made in China]

the 2,113-ton diesel-powered Ming-class vessel, which popped up at a record-close distance from the Japanese shore, demonstrates the Chinese navy's power to breach Japan's and the United States' joint defense of Taiwan.
GASP, I cant believe that China did that! surprising!
China, the next Superpower.

[MellowDrama]

Pshh... forget the subs, it's all about the RUSSIAN SS-N-22 SUNBURN Missiles. Fast as hell and low flying. You're in its range, you're fucked. End of story. As of 2000, Senate Armed Services Committee was saying this missile is essentially indefensible. I don't know if we've developed any countermeasures to this.

[Proud_Jook_Sing]

GASP, I cant believe that China did that! surprising!
China, the next Superpower.
Hehe, I wouldn't be so hasty to assume it went in undetected. China is a newcomer to playing tag submarine style. I don't think Japan or the US will advertise how well it can detect enemy subs. For all you know, a US sub was tailing it the whole way.

Why do I think that? Well, your article notes that the US was surprised to hear that the Ming could stay underwater for over a month (not bad for a diesel). So how could they know that unless they've been tailing it the whole time? ;)

In any case, your article does not counter my assertion that no one can detect US subs. US subs are quieter than the background noise of the ocean.

P.S. John101, I don't recall how Taiwan obtained it's nuclear capability. Probably the same way Israel did. ;) Also South Africa and Pakistan have nuclear weapons and Japan, Australia, and Canada are certainly capable of creating nuclear weapons rather quickly. Taiwanese nukes are probably lower yield single boosted gravity bombs (50kt probably).

[lethal]

Japanese subs may use American technology, but the sailors don't have anything near American training.

If I were China, I wouldn't be so quick to proclaim victory in the seas.

[Ogumo]

Hehe, I wouldn't be so hasty to assume it went in undetected. China is a newcomer to playing tag submarine style. I don't think Japan or the US will advertise how well it can detect enemy subs. For all you know, a US sub was tailing it the whole way.

Why do I think that? Well, your article notes that the US was surprised to hear that the Ming could stay underwater for over a month (not bad for a diesel). So how could they know that unless they've been tailing it the whole time? ;)

In any case, your article does not counter my assertion that no one can detect US subs. US subs are quieter than the background noise of the ocean.

P.S. John101, I don't recall how Taiwan obtained it's nuclear capability. Probably the same way Israel did. ;) Also South Africa and Pakistan have nuclear weapons and Japan, Australia, and Canada are certainly capable of creating nuclear weapons rather quickly. Taiwanese nukes are probably lower yield single boosted gravity bombs (50kt probably).

My sentiments exactly. Japan has been in the navy game for years. Either this is letting the chinese gain a big head or some form of equopment failure. Like you said they were probably observed the entire time.

[Ogumo]

Japanese subs may use American technology, but the sailors don't have anything near American training.

If I were China, I wouldn't be so quick to proclaim victory in the seas.

I am not so sure. America has the most military spending in the world but japan is number 2 in spending. They may not be as well trained as americans but they know what they are doing.

[Ogumo]

Pshh... forget the subs, it's all about the RUSSIAN SS-N-22 SUNBURN Missiles. Fast as hell and low flying. You're in its range, you're fucked. End of story. As of 2000, Senate Armed Services Committee was saying this missile is essentially indefensible. I don't know if we've developed any countermeasures to this.


Hell no. The the russian missle are much more advanced than the american counter parts. I doubt the americans have developed countermeasures yet. It is....you probably cannot develop counter measures for that missle...

[Proud_Jook_Sing]

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/plan/ming.htm
"While these boats are entirely obsolete by modern standards, they are useful for patrol and coastal defense duties, and construction continues providing a relatively inexpensive replacement for aging Romeo-class boats."

Check it out. The Ming is an upgraded design based on the WW2 U-boats. There's no way that sub went in undetected. Also, it had no way of detecting patrol planes and the sub only spotted the plane when it surfaced.

Now the 2 Sovremenny (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/plan/sovremenny.htm) class destroyers and their Sunburn missiles are dangerous but still they cannot protect an amphibious invasion fleet.

Which seems to be too small anyway:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/plan/yuting.htm
"The PLAN's amphibious fleet provides sealift sufficient to transport approximately one infantry division."
Maybe it is 2-3 divisions now but still pretty insufficient.

[Ogumo]

Thats funny.

[ChinaLama]

Hey, just how strong is the Taiwanese army? Don't they have a mandatory draft? Plus I heard the PRC army is so weak that despite its impressive stats, it can't really invade any of its neighbors. :-(

[Ogumo]

Well taiwan uses american weapons I believe. They would keep the chinese away for sometime but eventually would be over run. Taiwan may be stronger than south korea. Neither would be able to invade a neighbor successfully but they would make it like hell for any country that uses variations of russian weapons.

PRC is another name for the chinese army I assumre?

[Proud_Jook_Sing]

Hey, just how strong is the Taiwanese army? Don't they have a mandatory draft? Plus I heard the PRC army is so weak that despite its impressive stats, it can't really invade any of its neighbors. :-(
Fortress Taiwan is probably plenty strong with good training and equipment. As I noted before, it doesn't take much if the PLA can only move over 1 division amphibiously at a time.

It's true that the PRC's strength is now as good as the numbers but the PLA does have elite divisions like the US. And looking at it's neighbors I don't think their pretty strong at all.

[mr. x]

yes because the fact that people hate the U.S. for starting wars is THE SAME REASON that they will give China a pass for doing the same

think about it

[radiohum]

A single US aircraft carrier battlegroup in coordination with Taiwanese defense forces is plenty to stop an invasion. (Battle groups also include subs which China has no chance of detecting.) Unlike Iraq and Afghanistan which are Army affairs, the Navy is pretty much idling at the moment.

Amphibious invasions are horribly tricky affairs. And Taiwan has plenty of patriot batteries for missile defense.

by defeating the chinese momentarily with superior military power is not the ultimate solution to a peaceful taiwan strait.

this is no iraq war. hell no, this could instead be a mini world war involving china, taiwan, US and japan, and there are also other players which may be drawn into this conflict both voluntarily or involuntarily.

this is a highly complex issue involving the geographical interests of a number of countries in that region. it is never as simple as defeating china with military might.

in my opinion, i do not believe the US would paid whatever price to defend a tiny island over a long period of time anyway. the US government would receive enormous amount of backlashs at home, especially if the war drags on and horror pictures of the wounded or dead american soldiers are constantly sent home.

also, china is too big a player for any country to take lightly, and the price for making china an enemy would be extremely heavy, even for the US.

would you make an enemy that is the size of China that accounts for one fifth of humanity and technologically capable in the years to come?

so at the end of the day, I think uncle sam would eventually abandon the tiny island and ride with the dragon on this matter. it is only a matter of time and it makes sense for any US administrations.

also on military superiority, there is no question that the US has absolute dominance over the chinese, at the moment and perhaps over the next 50 years. but no one can confidently predict the outlook of the balance of power in 50 years time and beyond.

would uncle sam still be a superpower then? not sure, only time will tell.
but, history tells us that no single country or civilisation could dominate forever.

[radiohum]

For those hardcore chinese military followers, here are some of china's most secret weapons.

Xia 092 Nuclear Submarine
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/092_1.jpg

Han 091 Nuclear Submarine
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/091_1.jpg

Song 039 Diesel Submarine
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/039_1.jpg

Ming 035 Diesel Submarine
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/035_1.jpg

i heard there were unconfirmed reports that two han submarines were lurking in the waters near america's east coasts when the americans sent their aircraft carrier to taiwan strait in year 1996.

anyone heard about this rumour??

[radiohum]

Well taiwan uses american weapons I believe. They would keep the chinese away for sometime but eventually would be over run. Taiwan may be stronger than south korea. Neither would be able to invade a neighbor successfully but they would make it like hell for any country that uses variations of russian weapons.

PRC is another name for the chinese army I assumre?

What about countries that use variations of american weapons, huh???
would it be hell for them trying to invade a neighbor too???

also on SK and TW:

i think south korea is stronger than taiwan.

china is predictable. but north korea is not predictable.

china would never go to war with taiwan unless they declare independence.

on the other hand, no one can predict when kim II would go crazy.
south korea is therefore a lot more prepared and well trained, and they also have american troops stationed in their country.

so south korea is stronger than taiwan.

FYI:
PRC = People's Republic of China
PLA = People's Liberation Army

[radiohum]

Hey, just how strong is the Taiwanese army? Don't they have a mandatory draft? Plus I heard the PRC army is so weak that despite its impressive stats, it can't really invade any of its neighbors. :-(

dunno about the strength of the taiwanese army. but i know a fact that many of the soldiers (including frontliners) wear spectacles.

PRA is not weak. they are incredibly impressive on record despite facing opponents which have superior military equipments.

for instance, they defeated the nationalist army during the civil war, they defeated the indians (during 1962-63 border conflict), they defeated the vietnanmese (during sino-vietnamese war in 1979), they forced the amercians to retreat from the korean and vietnam wars.

also, the PRA bring along corpse bags when training.

[Ogumo]

For those hardcore chinese military followers, here are some of china's most secret weapons.

Xia 092 Nuclear Submarine
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/092_1.jpg

Han 091 Nuclear Submarine
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/091_1.jpg

Song 039 Diesel Submarine
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/039_1.jpg

Ming 035 Diesel Submarine
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/sub/035_1.jpg

i heard there were unconfirmed reports that two han submarines were lurking in the waters near america's east coasts when the americans sent their aircraft carrier to taiwan strait in year 1996.

anyone heard about this rumour??


Trust me I am sure they were still in internation water. But I dont doubt that they werent just outside. And those weapons are not "secret" if you are able to find them and post them on a public forum like this. And why havent you been banned yet??

[Ogumo]

What about countries that use variations of american weapons, huh???
would it be hell for them trying to invade a neighbor too???

also on SK and TW:

i think south korea is stronger than taiwan.

china is predictable. but north korea is not predictable.

china would never go to war with taiwan unless they declare independence.

on the other hand, no one can predict when kim II would go crazy.
south korea is therefore a lot more prepared and well trained, and they also have american troops stationed in their country.

so south korea is stronger than taiwan.

FYI:
PRC = People's Republic of China
PLA = People's Liberation Army

Yes it would be harder for them to invade another neighbor yes. Even if they used american weapons. Because the countries that do use the american weapons like south korea for example are second rate armies and japan is only limited by the constitution. But it is much more difficult for a country that uses russia weapons to attack another country that uses much more advanced weapons. You may be correct about south korea being more prepared than taiwan...but I believe the taiwan army is larger than the south korean army and that does make a difference...

[Proud_Jook_Sing]

South Korea and Taiwan's and even Japan's military all have different missions so it's not appropriate to compare them. South Korea faces a land invasion, Taiwan an amphibious one and Japan a long range missile threat/naval blockade.

As far as I know, none of the Chinese subs are remotely stealthy enough to evade detection so if their mission is to attack or protect ships they have to get in harms way. The Xia class though is a SSBN so it's mission is to disappear and avoid confrontation and the ocean is a big place.

If you want to talk about military strength you can't generalize, you need to discuss what mission they are trying to achieve. So if it's invading Taiwan, China has little chance of success given they only have amphib capability for 1-3 divisions at a time and have to attain air and sea superiority.

South Korean troops depend on the huge mine field to slow and hinder an invasion. I understand the troops are not well trained in maneuver but to stand and fight instead. That is what cost Nazi Germany the Normandy invasion, they never counter attacked. South Korea is pretty strong militarily for the mission of defending against an invasion.

[Ogumo]

South Korea and Taiwan's and even Japan's military all have different missions so it's not appropriate to compare them. South Korea faces a land invasion, Taiwan an amphibious one and Japan a long range missile threat/naval blockade.

As far as I know, none of the Chinese subs are remotely stealthy enough to evade detection so if their mission is to attack or protect ships they have to get in harms way. The Xia class though is a SSBN so it's mission is to disappear and avoid confrontation and the ocean is a big place.

If you want to talk about military strength you can't generalize, you need to discuss what mission they are trying to achieve. So if it's invading Taiwan, China has little chance of success given they only have amphib capability for 1-3 divisions at a time and have to attain air and sea superiority.

South Korean troops depend on the huge mine field to slow and hinder an invasion. I understand the troops are not well trained in maneuver but to stand and fight instead. That is what cost Nazi Germany the Normandy invasion, they never counter attacked. South Korea is pretty strong militarily for the mission of defending against an invasion.


This is correct you can't generalize. I have a question actually. Is 600 -700 miles consider long range or middle range for missle attack? ICBM type missle.

[Made in China]

FAS has not been updated for years.

Your ASSUMING that US sub was tailing it the whole way. now THATS funny

[Made in China]

Only China and Russia SUCCESSFULLY developed Super-Sonic Anti-Ship missiles.

sunburn missiles can sink Any US aircraft carrier. That is guranteed. Can any missile system detect and react in 2 seconds time, whiles the missile is cruising at Mach 3 from 90 miles away?

highly unlikely.

[mr. x]

leave taiwan out of this dude, if u wanna make it a fantasy war showdown between the U.S. and China fine, but i dont think they will invade Taiwan anytiem soon

like i said, why would anti-war protestors complain about the U.S. and NOT China?

[Made in China]

OKay, It is impossilbe to conquer Taiwan.

In world war two, The allies tried to release taiwan from Japanese occupation.

it was calculated that it would take 3 million man, a ratio of 10-1 men to take control of Taiwan.

3 million? Normandy was only 175,000 men.
Invading Taiwan was Impossible.

And taiwan todate, has over 423,000 man army. 8,000 land, and 400 aircrafts.

It would take atleast 5 million man to overtake Taiwan.

[Made in China]

only if you bomb everything first. and use China's legion of hackers to screw up communication.

cause naval blockade to Starve the people while bombing them endlessly.

...now Thats Hell :)

[Ogumo]

OKay, It is impossilbe to conquer Taiwan.

In world war two, The allies tried to release taiwan from Japanese occupation.

it was calculated that it would take 3 million man, a ratio of 10-1 men to take control of Taiwan.

3 million? Normandy was only 175,000 men.
Invading Taiwan was Impossible.

And taiwan todate, has over 423,000 man army. 8,000 land, and 400 aircrafts.

It would take atleast 5 million man to overtake Taiwan.


And china only has six million men and inferior vehicles.

[Ogumo]

only if you bomb everything first. and use China's legion of hackers to screw up communication.

cause naval blockade to Starve the people while bombing them endlessly.

...now Thats Hell :)

They would not bomb successfully.

[Proud_Jook_Sing]

Only China and Russia SUCCESSFULLY developed Super-Sonic Anti-Ship missiles.

sunburn missiles can sink Any US aircraft carrier. That is guranteed. Can any missile system detect and react in 2 seconds time, whiles the missile is cruising at Mach 3 from 90 miles away?

highly unlikely.
Look I know you're only 14 but you could have some more social graces if you want to continue an honest and open discussion. We can tell your quite proud of supposed Chinese capabilities but saying statements like "That is guaranteed" just indicates how insecure your arguments are.

I have fun discussing military history and stuff but not with people who read something, not think about the source or whether it is propaganda and repeat it as absolute fact and then diss people who disagree with them.

I actually work for a military contractor and interact with military personnel. Believe me, none of the officers are blinded by superiority complexes, they are professionals who know arrogance = death. And secrecy is a serious thing here. Everyone reads military articles here with a grain of salt.

[Ogumo]

Exactly. When you think about it why would china devolouge such information? When it would only in the long run place them at a disadvantage.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Hey, Ogumo and MIC, if I remember correctly, you guys had this same bullshit argument on YOLK once upon a time ago. Nothing like watching a couple of die-hard nationalists go at it. Who cares. China, Japan, who's stronger? Who can kick whose ass? wa wa wa

[Ogumo]

Don't remind me...sigh...

[SunWuKong]

hahhah this thread is funny

[Made in China]

What user name were you Ogumo? Where you that Japanese guy, Sekaku or whatevE?R!?!?
and Jook, Were you Area51?

wa wa wa! WAHHHH!!!!

By the way, I know everyaspect of China's military, PLA, PLAAF, PLAN, everything.

China can draft up to

[Made in China]

And china only has six million men and inferior vehicles.
wrong.

[ChinaLama]

ok, MIC, calm down. I think you're too into Chinese nationalism or whatever. next thing you know, you're gonna start advocating taking back land from Russia. ;)

[Ogumo]

hahhah this thread is funny

It will become more funny shortly...I assure you.

[Ogumo]

What user name were you Ogumo? Where you that Japanese guy, Sekaku or whatevE?R!?!?
and Jook, Were you Area51?

wa wa wa! WAHHHH!!!!

By the way, I know everyaspect of China's military, PLA, PLAAF, PLAN, everything.

China can draft up to

Sengoku_jidai. How long will it be before you are banned from this forum? How much longer can you hold back on your racist comments? 10? 17 more posts?

[applehead]

By the way, I know everyaspect of China's military, PLA, PLAAF, PLAN, everything.


this will be interesting.

[ChinaLama]

Sengoku_jidai. How long will it be before you are banned from this forum? How much longer can you hold back on your racist comments? 10? 17 more posts?

you calm down, too, Hokage. it's NOT THAT SERIOUS.

[Ogumo]

Im just playing with the kid. Not to worry. If this thread goes out of control I will probably just stop responding.

[lethal]

By the way, I know everyaspect of China's military, PLA, PLAAF, PLAN, everything.



If you had any credibility before this particular post, it disappeared. If you had no credibility, well, there's no way to lose more then, eh?

[ChinaLama]

hey LW don't judge. MIC may be a junior spy. :)

[radiohum]

Trust me I am sure they were still in internation water. But I dont doubt that they werent just outside. And those weapons are not "secret" if you are able to find them and post them on a public forum like this. And why havent you been banned yet??

ok, to call it the most secret weapons may be an exaggeration, but they are still highly sophisticated submarines. at least by chinese standards.

just because it is a secret doesn't mean you cannot find the material and post them on a public forum like this.

you'll only be banned (or completely vanished) if the disclosed material is causing a threat to national security. this is same in every country.

[applehead]

you'll only be banned (or completely vanished) if the disclosed material is causing a threat to national security. this is same in every country.

i think she means banned on this forum.

[deez nuts]

hey LW don't judge. MIC may be a junior spy. :)


and he's only 14. he's like asian cody banks.

[MellowDrama]

Just saying, NO ONE, I repeat no one in the western world knows the size of the PLAAF's arsenal. Some say it's 150 modern fighters (Su-27s and J-11s), others say it's double that.

[Made in China]

Sengoku_jidai. How long will it be before you are banned from this forum? How much longer can you hold back on your racist comments? 10? 17 more posts?
Stop accusing me of racist comments. This is a fabrication, completed lie.:dry:

The only reason why Japan got so deep into China was because China was in a civil war. China did not have a navy nor a airforce untill 1950, and november of 1949.

So, your from Yolk forums? what happen to it? I think someone I know brought it down. Maybe a hacker.:retard:

[Made in China]

and he's only 14. he's like asian cody banks.
I give you and Jook props for grillin' my age.

[SunWuKong]

The only reason why Japan got so deep into China was because China was in a civil war. China did not have a navy nor a airforce untill 1950, and november of 1949.

no, that's not the only reason. Japan started a national effort to modernise and industrialise itself in the mid 1800s. it's called the Meiji Reforms. basically it had a huge headstart on China.

[deez nuts]

I give you and Jook props for grillin' my age.

props for me? you're too kind.

[Made in China]

holy shit, your post count is at 11,333! The higest I ever gone is like 2234. All together my life, I posted.....4,780. This is surprising news .:shocked face:.

So, what do you guys think is better? China and Russia's Su-Flanker 27 or American F-16 eagles?

Its said that Su-Flankers is unmatched in the entire Asian Continent. Maybe the Eurofighter 2000 or some european fighter can matchup it.

they say Su-Flankers can kill american Eagles in a dog fight easily. Is Russian Hardware able to do such thing?!

China has some 145 of flankers. pretty Nasty equipment, under the Commie China.

[Ogumo]

Stop accusing me of racist comments. This is a fabrication, completed lie.:dry:

The only reason why Japan got so deep into China was because China was in a civil war. China did not have a navy nor a airforce untill 1950, and november of 1949.

So, your from Yolk forums? what happen to it? I think someone I know brought it down. Maybe a hacker.:retard:

Hahahaha damn. Alright what ever you say MIC. Anyway there were a number of things as to why the army was able to get so far into china. China was at its weakest point in history. But really what was the main factor was japan had so many jumps on china. Something happened to that forum? Good.

[Ogumo]

holy shit, your post count is at 11,333! The higest I ever gone is like 2234. All together my life, I posted.....4,780. This is surprising news .:shocked face:.

So, what do you guys think is better? China and Russia's Su-Flanker 27 or American F-16 eagles?

Its said that Su-Flankers is unmatched in the entire Asian Continent. Maybe the Eurofighter 2000 or some european fighter can matchup it.

they say Su-Flankers can kill american Eagles in a dog fight easily. Is Russian Hardware able to do such thing?!

China has some 145 of flankers. pretty Nasty equipment, under the Commie China.

The su flanker is a beatiful machine. But the f-16 is either the same capability or slightly less. The su is inferior to the f-18 and f-22 (not currently serveced). It is a big statement to say that the su-flanker is unmatched in the entire asian continent. When the south koreans use better. Chinese su flankers are the same as the russian version. Chinese have not significantly improved on the plane I don't think. But I may be wrong. Either way there are still more leathal aircraft.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

I kinda don't see the point in arguing or debating this issue if it's true that 'nobody' knows 'exactly' what each nation has in its arsenal.

[Proud_Jook_Sing]

I give you and Jook props for grillin' my age.
No, I am giving you slack for being 14 (alot of people are if you have not noticed). If you were about 25 and talking smack like that then you'll really get grilled.

[Made in China]

whats all this "smack" your talking about?

[Made in China]

I miss Yolk forums. :(

If you got questions about China's army, ask me.

You guys want pretty pictures on China's military parade? very pretty pics, :-)

[SunWuKong]

I miss Yolk forums. :(

If you got questions about China's army, ask me.

You guys want pretty pictures on China's military parade? very pretty pics, :-)


how about pictures of Hangzhou women?

[Craig]

how about pictures of Hangzhou women?
Is there anything special about women from Hangzhou ? One of my former roommates was from Hangzhou and he never mentioned anything about Hangzhou women in particular.

[Emperor_Mike]

We're getting off topic. Back to military equipment please. I need my daily dose of machines of war, military strategy and history.

Oh, if anyone likes this sort of thing go to:

http://www.strategypage.com/

[SunWuKong]

Is there anything special about women from Hangzhou ? One of my former roommates was from Hangzhou and he never mentioned anything about Hangzhou women in particular.

i've never been there, but that's where the most beautiful Chinese women are supposed to be.

[Made in China]

Japan would have never conquer China. Japan had there army spread out too thin.

Japan had 7.4 million troops spread out to China, and South East Nations. And alot in the Japan motherland to protect from US invasion.

China had 3.8 million nationalist and 1.2 Communist.
total of 5 million troops.
Todate, China has 2.5 million. and a population of India's and United State's population COMBINED.

China was 10.4 times the size of Japan (population wise, and territory wise)

Japan had almost 5.5 million troops in China.

How can 5.5 million control 1,300,000,000 Billion?

it cant, so it has to control them thru fear, like Saddam's Iraq regime. They had to murder and use Brute Force to control them, or else they would riot.
Japan had to hurt many people, to make it so the Chinese would not fight back, or else, they would be killed.

[AngryABCGirl]

i've never been there, but that's where the most beautiful Chinese women are supposed to be.

I've been there, they have good food, but I wasn't exactly checking out the women.

Anyway, what's so relevant about the military power of Asian countries besides that possible fucking up of politics and such in the years to come?

[Made in China]

China is stronger than US. Sino-Russian Alliance!

America can BARELY handle Afganistan and Iraq.
What is the chances of them controlling China?

[Tao]

i've never been there, but that's where the most beautiful Chinese women are supposed to be.
na man, go to da lian...they be hot

[Chester]

na man, go to da lian...they be hot
Seconded. Emphatically.

[Made in China]

China is strongest.

[BaiginLong]

MIC you're one biased kid
look ok I'm chinese and I'm beginning to be irritated
the world is simply in deadlock
numberswise China is on top yes but
tech Europe + US has the game set and match
hackers??? china????
some of our amatures here would make a hayday of them
the professionals are that much better
and I know a few personally so dun get me started

US is better at precise crippling strikes now so watch how you do your estimates
war is a much different game than when Sun-Tzu knew all

Now I see why Amie tried to bite your head off in the christmas presents thread

jeeze man

you think japan couldn't have taken china

we were lucky only because the Nationalists and Commies finally got their act together
conquering your enemy is all about opportunity and Japan took it but then they made a bad move in hitting Pearl Harbor and got squashed but US

Japan was superior in strategy to China at the time because they cut down the coast as quickly as possible China was pretty much fucked because of Civil war
come on get your facts straight don't just spit out numbers and stats out of your ass think introspectively
sheesh

and your air-power comments are soo crap
yeah right sure those Chinese jets are un matched it you forget.....ohh the F-22, F-18, EF 2000...
and what about bombers hmmmm
we have the F-117A , B-1, B-2
in addition to all of that US now has the unmanned toys

We haven't even gotten to the Navy and the army yet

sit down and finish puberty kid then drop some intelligent posts

[BaiginLong]

China is stronger than US. Sino-Russian Alliance!

America can BARELY handle Afganistan and Iraq.
What is the chances of them controlling China?
when we're talking about war capability we only consider the part of beating the hell of of the other nation not the part where you control it afterwards

so we cleaned house in both Afganistan and Iraq
I doubt China could have done better
and controlling Iraq????
can you do it show me hmmm?

personally though the grounds to go to war were unfounded but that's another topic

[Made in China]

I see stubborness in your post.

IF America cleaned house in Afganistan and Iraq, Why are 2 Americans are dying everyday?

Why did President Bush went to Iraq for 2 hours then left for thanksgiving?

Get your facts straigtht, Learn History and Facts, not some America Proproganda.

I am not even going to argue with a ignorance mofo like you that takes everything to the head.

Such a impatient fool.

I am not going to waste my time with childish amatuers such as yourself.

[kimpossible]

oh THIS ought to get good *gets popcorn*

[AngryABCGirl]

oh THIS ought to get good *gets popcorn*

*bringing on the beer to watch with HH*

[Napoleon Chynamite]

This whole thread is pointless yet pretty entertaining. We should create a new forum reserved for bullshit debates that involve egos and ignorant nationalistic attitudes so that certain individuals can duke it out and others can just sit back and watch.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

na man, go to da lian...they be hot

My dad's stayed in both Hangzhou and Da Lian while on business trips to China and he says they're nuthin' special. 'Course...I never been there myself..so...*shrug* I'm sure that my dad's tastes are slightly different from mine ^^

[kimpossible]

This whole thread is pointless yet pretty entertaining. We should create a new forum reserved for bullshit debates that involve egos and ignorant nationalistic attitudes so that certain individuals can duke it out and others can just sit back and watch.

shhh. stop that! don't ruin my entertainment.

[Tao]

My dad's stayed in both Hangzhou and Da Lian while on business trips to China and he says they're nuthin' special. 'Course...I never been there myself..so...*shrug* I'm sure that my dad's tastes are slightly different from mine ^^
hanzhou chicks are average looking. da lian chicks got it going on...trust me on this.

[Blue dice]

MIC you're one biased kid
look ok I'm chinese and I'm beginning to be irritated
the world is simply in deadlock
numberswise China is on top yes but
tech Europe + US has the game set and match
hackers??? china????

US is better at precise crippling strikes now so watch how you do your estimates
war is a much different game than when Sun-Tzu knew all

we were lucky only because the Nationalists and Commies finally got their act together
conquering your enemy is all about opportunity and Japan took it but then they made a bad move in hitting Pearl Harbor and got squashed but US

We haven't even gotten to the Navy and the army yet


I have to agree that in a knockdown dragout conventional war the U.S. would come out on top. However, China isn't stupid it knows it can't go pound for pound with an economic powerhouse like the U.S. China will wait and slowly pour funds into pet projects in order to build its influence piece by piece. The start of this process is economically catching up and then gaining military autonomy. When it comes down to it wars are won with efficiency in production and allocation of units. The U.S. is far more efficient because of capitalism/democracy. BUT..the U.S. can't fight a protracted war and sustain casualities to the point where the war is seen as politically unfavorable. This means the U.S. military DOES have great limitations. Its greatest achilles heel are the people living in the U.S. Look at how strong American backlash was towards the Vietnam conflict. There will never be a case of "total war" or attitude of expendable soldiers unless the U.S. is attacked first. It's highly unlikely China will provide an opening while it's so vulnerable.

These two outlooks result in a permanent stalemate in my opinion. People like to compare militaries but it's really moot. A war involving the two nations isn't going to happen simply because both parties really aren't interested. The cost of going to war would be far too much for both countries. There would be little to gain out of it all. Instead they will snipe each other with silly sanctions and economic wargames.

China isn't Iraq though, the U.S. military conflicts in the middle east aren't even close to being an accurate representation of what a full scale war against a nation like China would be like. Iraq and Afghanistan are tiny countries in comparison and even then the mostly volunteer U.S. military is straining at the seams. Reserves are being depleted pretty fast and the occupation hasn't even lasted a year yet.

By the virtues of being a authoritarian society China can also play much dirtier than the U.S. It's not really constrained by the will of the population that's something else to consider in a scenario involving total war.

[Made in China]

China would win any Convention War because of sheer numbers.

This chinese tactic worked extremely well during Chinese history.

Overwhelming the enemy is the best way to make them surrender and defeat them.

US would win China if Nuclear Bombs were used.

China can draft up to 375,000,000,000 men, more than the popoulation of US alone.

That enough should scare the shit out of you. China has a extremely small 2.5 million man army. any Nation can get 1 million man army.

China's population is mind boggling, sheer numbers, US cannot controll them.

This will be atleast 1000 times of Iraq, and the Chinese are well adapted to Guerilla Warfare conditions.

Iraqs may kill 2 US per day, imagine China!

within a year, US's army will crumble.

US cant conquer China. Nor the other way around.

Its Quantity over Quality in War.

[Blue dice]

China would win any Convention War because of sheer numbers.

This chinese tactic worked extremely well during Chinese history.

Overwhelming the enemy is the best way to make them surrender and defeat them.

Sheer numbers don't factor in air or naval superiority. Any military person can tell you this. I'm not going to toot the U.S. military's horn god knows I despise the U.S. foreign policy and its attitude as it is but the military is still far superior to any other country's standing forces. China's conventional military is still outdated and based around Russian surplus. It's not a good sign if you have to rely on a neighboring country to build up your military. That means your technology will automatically be countered because the russians will sell or give logistics information to the U.S.

US would win China if Nuclear Bombs were used.

Actually I believe noone wins in a nuclear exchange.

China can draft up to 375,000,000,000 men, more than the popoulation of US alone.

375 would require an outrageous amount of planning and logistical support. Those men aren't going to hop on trains or planes to fight on the frontlines if those rails and airports are being bombed too. Think realistically.

That enough should scare the shit out of you. China has a extremely small 2.5 million man army. any Nation can get 1 million man army.

Actually a smaller more well trained army is better in the long run. I'd rather China have a WELL trained 2.5 million man army than 375 million peasant conscripts who don't know how to operate a firearm.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

hanzhou chicks are average looking. da lian chicks got it going on...trust me on this.

hmm...well from the pics i've seen they look like Koreans. Can't really tell the difference unless it's like in terms of dress or style. So basically you guys just like Chinese women who look Korean ^^ haha j/k

[BaiginLong]

I see stubborness in your post.

IF America cleaned house in Afganistan and Iraq, Why are 2 Americans are dying everyday?

Why did President Bush went to Iraq for 2 hours then left for thanksgiving?

Get your facts straigtht, Learn History and Facts, not some America Proproganda.

I am not even going to argue with a ignorance mofo like you that takes everything to the head.

Such a impatient fool.

I am not going to waste my time with childish amatuers such as yourself. my goodness your level of BS is astounding
lets see you said two ppl a day even if that were accurate that makes for a small number in war

more ppl die every day in the US from accidents and smoking

and the whole Thanksgiving thing
umm I dunno about the rest of you but would I rather be making a political appearance in Iraq or would I rather be chowing down at home on turkey????

it seems to me that you're the one feeding off propaganda
in fact if I remember correctly: isn't the press controlled by the government in China?????

hmmmm

Now why don't we learn some more spelling and English grammer before spouting off to us.

[SunWuKong]

my goodness your level of BS is astounding


chill. you know we don't tolerate attacks like that around here.

[xdlin22]

technology wise us is more advance since it spends a whole shit load of money on military, more than any other country, or us can just bomb the shit out of china but GO CHINA

[mtso]

I don't think China's military history in the past century is that impressive.

WW2 - Japan was being thrashed by the two strongest powers in the world (russia and the U.S.) near the end of the war. With the U.S. island hopping campaign and naval power choking Japan's lifelines and Russians pouring over the Manchurian border, the Chinese Armies just had to sit back and let the others beat Japan down to the point where it had to surrender.

Korea - Probably China's most imressive military achievement this century. Yes, the massive numbers of Chinese troops pouring across the N.Korean border threw back the U.N. armies to the 38th parallel, but at what cost? Even back then, the Chinese armies couldn't supply every soldier with a rifle! They had to throw unarmed men into battle and tell them to pick up a rifle on the battlefield from one of their dead buddies! Also, the U.S. considered it a "police action" so the u.s. wasn't even close to being mobilized. China and North Vietnam were fighting a superpower with one (or both?) hands tied behind its back.

Vietnam - Everything I read says that the Chinese conscript armies got their butts kicked by the battle-hardened Vietnamese troops (hey, when you beat the U.S. in a war you've got to be good, right). However, China withdrew after a little while and announced that they taught Vietnam a lesson.

India - I don't know anything about that conflict. But knowing how MIC has been exaggerating about everything else, I wouldn't be surprised if India got the better of this war, too.

[Blue dice]

I don't think China's military history in the past century is that impressive.

It was mostly due to a divided population and the civil war going on.

Russians pouring over the Manchurian border, the Chinese Armies just had to sit back and let the others beat Japan down to the point where it had to surrender.

That's not really true at all, the communists engaged in an extensive campaign to drive out the Japanese. Go read about the fighting within mainland China sometime it's rarely covered in western textbooks.
http://www-chaos.umd.edu/history/republican3.html#anti-japanese
The problem with WW2 was that China was mostly fighting a 3-way war, one inbetween themselves and the other with the Japanese.

Also, the U.S. considered it a "police action" so the u.s. wasn't even close to being mobilized. China and North Vietnam were fighting a superpower with one (or both?) hands tied behind its back.

McArthur wanted to nuclear strafe bomb China and claimed that this was the only way the U.S. could make real headway into that region. The term "Police action" for the U.S. was just codeword for "war" so that's not really a valid argument. The U.S.'s achilles heel was always the feasibility of fighting a protracted war under the democratic will of its people. I don't view North Vietnam realizing this as the U.S. having its hands tied behind its back. I call it exploiting a known weakness.

Vietnam - Everything I read says that the Chinese conscript armies got their butts kicked by the battle-hardened Vietnamese troops (hey, when you beat the U.S. in a war you've got to be good, right). However, China withdrew after a little while and announced that they taught Vietnam a lesson.

It really wasn't that cut and dried, the Chinese army did take a city or two before leaving. Naturally it was a political coup for Vietnam but hardly a one sided victory in any event. Let's just say propaganda was high on both sides.

India - I don't know anything about that conflict. But knowing how MIC has been exaggerating about everything else, I wouldn't be surprised if India got the better of this war, too.
This was indeed a victory over India and a long lasting diplomatic sore spot for that country.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_284247,001300370003.htm

The hindustantimes a pretty pro-indian paper even considers it a defeat.


India's defeat in 1962 led to an overhaul of Indian Army in terms of doctrine, training, organisation and equipment.

[Martino]

A conventional war between China and the US? If it happened, it wouldn't stay conventional for very long. Right now you have a US administration interested in developing a new generation of battlefield mini-nukes - that is to say, nuclear weapons they can actually use.

The theatre for such a war would initially be Asian (Korea? Japan? Taiwan?), possibly as a result of something like this triggering a new arms race in the region:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3333117.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/3197131.stm

[Made in China]

After Decades of Corruption
After Large Western Colonization
After Boxer Rebellion
After Collaspe of Qing Dynasty (Equal to Soviet Union Collaspe)
After 6 years of Civil War
After 16 years of Sino-Japanese War of World War Two
After Suffering 35 million civilan/military massacre in World War Two
After another 4 years of Civil war

China is formed under PRC.

1 year later, China enters Korean War. and DOES NOT LOSE to Superpower US and 15 other nations

After invading Tibet
After suffering another 40 million civilan deaths under Mao Tse Dong
After going through Cultural Revoultion,
After going through Great Leap Forward
After going through Long March
After Soviet Border Clashes
After Taiwan-China Tensions
After losing a war with Vietnam
After Tiamennem Square Massacre
After going through 56 years under Communism

After knowing all that sh*t China went through in this Century alone

China is WEAK??????

[Napoleon Chynamite]

After Decades of Corruption
After Large Western Colonization
After Boxer Rebellion
After Collaspe of Qing Dynasty (Equal to Soviet Union Collaspe)
After 6 years of Civil War
After 16 years of Sino-Japanese War of World War Two
After Suffering 35 million civilan/military massacre in World War Two
After another 4 years of Civil war

China is formed under PRC.

1 year later, China enters Korean War. and DOES NOT LOSE to Superpower US and 15 other nations

After invading Tibet
After suffering another 40 million civilan deaths under Mao Tse Dong
After going through Cultural Revoultion,
After going through Great Leap Forward
After going through Long March
After Soviet Border Clashes
After Taiwan-China Tensions
After losing a war with Vietnam
After Tiamennem Square Massacre
After going through 56 years under Communism

After knowing all that sh*t China went through in this Century alone

China is WEAK??????

May I suggest extracurricular activities. What makes the promotion of China such a big part of your life at the young and tender age of 14?

[Blue dice]

May I suggest extracurricular activities. What makes the promotion of China such a big part of your life at the young and tender age of 14?
He's starting to sound like a PRC shill. I wish he'd debate with facts and at least some proof to back up his rhetoric. Although there is a kernel of truth to some of the things he states he blows everything so out of proportion with reality.

[Martino]

After Decades of Corruption
After Large Western Colonization
After Boxer Rebellion
After Collaspe of Qing Dynasty (Equal to Soviet Union Collaspe)
After 6 years of Civil War
After 16 years of Sino-Japanese War of World War Two
After Suffering 35 million civilan/military massacre in World War Two
After another 4 years of Civil war

China is formed under PRC.

1 year later, China enters Korean War. and DOES NOT LOSE to Superpower US and 15 other nations

After invading Tibet
After suffering another 40 million civilan deaths under Mao Tse Dong
After going through Cultural Revoultion,
After going through Great Leap Forward
After going through Long March
After Soviet Border Clashes
After Taiwan-China Tensions
After losing a war with Vietnam
After Tiamennem Square Massacre
After going through 56 years under Communism

After knowing all that sh*t China went through in this Century alone

China is WEAK??????

China has gone through a century of upheaval, but is a country of vast resource and a huge population ... of course it would heal itself rapidly. When the West or Western-influenced powers had a technological edge, they imposed themselves on China. When the technological edge was eroded, China reasserted itself much as it did of old against long forgotten enemies.

It's the natural ebb and flow of history. China did much the same when establishing its modern borders. Japan did it when it modelled its then newly modernised navy on the British Royal Navy (beating Russia in a naval war for good measure). As history stands in the here and now, China is firmly on the world stage. Influence in the UN and the WTO is growing, and China has shown an unprecedented willingness to co-operate with external bodies like the WHO.

China also has projects of national prestige to consider, like its manned space programme (which may yet find funding and technological co-operation from Japan, bring the two closer). Conflict between China and any other party would just mean bad news for the whole region and undo all of China's hard won diplomatic victories and social reforms of the last 15 years.

As for someone's reference to tit-for-tat trade wars between China and the US, trade wise America has no friends in Europe - we've just won the Steel War, the Banana War is on hold, and tensions between Washington and the EU can only increase as we Europeans increase the size of our trading bloc still further over the next five years. China may even find itself allied with Europe against a perceived rogue superpower. Bit ironic, considering how civil liberties in the States are being wittled away just as China starts showing signs that it may initiate greater reform.

BTW Why is the invasion of Tibet on the list? Or the Tian Nan Men massacre? I wouldn't consider them merit points.

[Made in China]

He's starting to sound like a PRC shill. I wish he'd debate with facts and at least some proof to back up his rhetoric. Although there is a kernel of truth to some of the things he states he blows everything so out of proportion with reality.Which information are you talking about? I can supply you with links and proof.

May I suggest extracurricular activities. What makes the promotion of China such a big part of your life at the young and tender age of 14?dude, I only have 130 post. You got nearly 4,000 post! How about YOU go get a life and a job and friends?

I have never posted beyound 4,000, that is insane. 2,230 in One forum, but I have been at that One forum for years.

[Made in China]

China had really 30 years of Real Growth, since 1979 with economy reforms under Deng Xiaoping.

Jeez, All you guy rashing my age for? Age doesnt make up for intelligence. This is the internet, Does Age, Race, or Sex Matter????

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Jeez, All you guy rashing my age for? Age doesnt make up for intelligence. This is the internet, Does Age, Race, or Sex Matter????

yea they all matter

[Napoleon Chynamite]

Which information are you talking about? I can supply you with links and proof.

dude, I only have 130 post. You got nearly 4,000 post! How about YOU go get a life and a job and friends?

I have never posted beyound 4,000, that is insane. 2,230 in One forum, but I have been at that One forum for years.

Haha before you make assumptions about other people and their lives, try not to take my post out of context. All you've done here is talk about how China is all this and all that. I was suggesting that perhaps you find another cause or hobby since obviously you are obsessed with telling everyone how much you'd like to suck China's dick. I'd hate to use the you-came-from-a-crappy-ass-forum-so-your-words-dont-mean-shit card on you, but this isn't YOLK, sorry. ^^ People somewhat value tact and good grammar. You can perhaps try the Chinese Nationalist Alliance forum, which is full of people who believe it or not, are your age and just as biased and uneducated =D

[Made in China]

Haha before you make assumptions about other people and their lives, try not to take my post out of context. All you've done here is talk about how China is all this and all that. I was suggesting that perhaps you find another cause or hobby since obviously you are obsessed with telling everyone how much you'd like to suck China's dick. I'd hate to use the you-came-from-a-crappy-ass-forum-so-your-words-dont-mean-shit card on you, but this isn't YOLK, sorry. ^^ People somewhat value tact and good grammar. You can perhaps try the Chinese Nationalist Alliance forum, which is full of people who believe it or not, are your age and just as biased and uneducated =D
Ahh, Your Area51. :Takes out Gun:

I am so smarter than you, yet I don't want to brag. Your intelligence is inferior to mines.

If you hate Yolk, then why did you stick around and get Bashed everyday?

I am getting the vibe that you don't not have friends and like to act tough in forums over the internet.

NERD! Aren't you that Ultranationalist Japanese that approves of the Rape of Nanking?

What a loser, Go jack off to Anime porn.

[SunWuKong]

MIC, i believe you've been warned before. no personal attacks. your posting privileges have now been limited until further notice.

and to others that have been engaging in this "discussion" - there's no need to flame him. (no, not everybody was doing the flaming, but to those who were, you know who you are.)

closing.