What does "Asian Pride" Mean to you? [Archive]

tapestrybabe

11-19-2003, 09:06 PM

hehe...
i use to have the whole aZn PrYde fever big time...
it started a few years back with my time on click2asia... and actually associating with other asians for my first time from that site... back than... i really didnt differentiate between chinese, japanese, koreans... and so forth... i was more or less like... this is cool... they all look like me... cool to be hanging out with my own type of ppl...

altho my attitude has changed... i'm more aware of the difference when it comes to culture... and its not really an asian identity i just carry... like i just dont say i'm asian... but i like to make that distinction that i'm Korean...

and yes i agree... i think the whole asian pride is an american thing... but that doesnt make it necessarily bad...

Ogumo

11-19-2003, 09:12 PM

I "Asians pride" exist anywhere that asians are a minority. There is collective identities and experiences asians share when they don't feel like they belong in mainstream culture.

This is probably true. But I never hear about things like "Asian pride" come from europe not to say that it doesnt exist there...

John0101

11-19-2003, 09:16 PM

This is probably true. But I never hear about things like "Asian pride" come from europe not to say that it doesnt exist there...

I dont think there are many asians in europe. I knew one asian (chinese) kid that was from Spain studyin electrical engineering here at my school. I think he had "asian pride". He knew how to use chopstixs and was into asian girls. He was never afraid to share the fact that he was asian and from spain.

tapestrybabe

11-19-2003, 09:17 PM

This is probably true. But I never hear about things like "Asian pride" come from europe not to say that it doesnt exist there...
you know on second thought... there are quite a bunch of korean adoptees that have been adopted from europe... and they sorta have that mentality... an asian pride thing... and the whole desire when it comes to the search for their root... and what have you...

Ogumo

11-19-2003, 09:21 PM

I dont think there are many asians in europe. I knew one asian (chinese) kid that was from Spain studyin electrical engineering here at my school. I think he had "asian pride". He knew how to use chopstixs and was into asian girls. He was never afraid to share the fact that he was asian and from spain.

Did he use the words "asian" or the words "chinese person" from spain?

Ogumo

11-19-2003, 09:22 PM

you know on second thought... there are quite a bunch of korean adoptees that have been adopted from europe... and they sorta have that mentality... an asian pride thing... and the whole desire when it comes to the search for their root... and what have you...

Is that so? Are you sure it wasnt some type of korean pride thing?

tapestrybabe

11-19-2003, 09:51 PM

Is that so? Are you sure it wasnt some type of korean pride thing?i am not exactly sure on that... but yeah, i dont think they necessarily have the whole aZn attitude in europe... but i know that within the korean adoptee community... whether here in the us or europe... there is DEFINITLY an attitude of wanting to reconnect... to its culture, language... and so forth... but of course... like i always say... i dont want to speak for every adopted korean... but yeah, thats a common theme for a lot of us...

Ogumo

11-19-2003, 09:52 PM

I see.

AngryABCGirl

11-20-2003, 01:15 AM

I have Asian pride, but I think it might be more correct to say I have Chinese or Taiwanese pride.

Emperor_Mike

11-20-2003, 05:26 AM

Nothing, really. I'm proud of the achievements, but I can't be bothered to make a big fuss out of it. Better things to do with my time, you know.

yoMAMA

11-20-2003, 12:58 PM

Tao, you mean:

aZnPrYdE?

:p

mr. x

11-20-2003, 01:09 PM

it's about acting black

Fireblade

11-20-2003, 02:03 PM

I have asian pride, but I dunno if it fits everyone's definition. For me, having asian pride is:

-Not being ashamed for being Asian

-To not be intimidated by others

-To slam sterotypes and claim an identity that is altogether your own, while keeping in mind of your ethnic culture is still a part of you

-Being able to point out things that you can identify as racist, or ignorance when it comes to assumptions to your ethnic heritage or what-not.

John0101

11-20-2003, 02:27 PM

I have Asian pride, but I think it might be more correct to say I have Chinese or Taiwanese pride.

I never thought of myself as just "chinese", I mean when someone ask me what I am... I always say I'm Asian American. I think we see this here, everybody on this forum isn't just one particular ethnicity, there korean, japanese, thai, etc... and yet there is still a connection that runs between everybody here.

I'm just wondering, but I wonder if anybody from maybe inland China whose never meet a non-chinese person before would still come to this site and still feel a connection...

Ogumo

11-20-2003, 02:31 PM

nonamerasian

11-20-2003, 02:31 PM

I'm just wondering, but I wonder if anybody from maybe inland China whose never meet a non-chinese person before would still come to this site and still feel a connection...

I think that is a good question.

John0101

11-20-2003, 02:45 PM

I think that is a good question.

I personally don't think they will because yw is geared toward the Asian American experience.

Irezumi Kiss

11-20-2003, 06:20 PM

it's about acting black

heh heh

Maybe you're the one who did this, then: A.Z.N. Pryde (http://www.hamncheez.com/download.php?flash=pride.swf)

Irezumi Kiss

11-20-2003, 06:31 PM

I never thought of myself as just "chinese", I mean when someone ask me what I am... I always say I'm Asian American. I think we see this here, everybody on this forum isn't just one particular ethnicity, there korean, japanese, thai, etc... and yet there is still a connection that runs between everybody here.

I'm just wondering, but I wonder if anybody from maybe inland China whose never meet a non-chinese person before would still come to this site and still feel a connection...

The operative word here is "connection."

Which has less basis in biology and more basis in spirit/mentality/direction.

..this people generally group as "soul."

I'm not even Asian (unless you indirectly count the Native Am in me) and I can connect with Asian interests...because I share similar interests.

I look at this as I look at most things in the world — through the individual's eyes. That being said, I can also understand the feeling/passion of also seeing through and being a part of a group connectedness...due to biology. It's just as good.

Chris

11-22-2003, 10:28 AM

Praise be.

word.

Made in China

11-22-2003, 06:21 PM

I am proud to be a Product of the People's Republic of China. As you can see, my user name is "Made In China"

I am just another McDonalds toys that was manufactured in China and was send in a cardboard box drifting towards America.

I proud myself actually being from HK!and Asian second, and China third.

China and those Commies. yuck1

ChinaLama

11-22-2003, 06:43 PM

hey MIC, when you were born, you were actually a product of the British Empire, cuz you're a HK'er right?. :laugh:

Ogumo

11-22-2003, 08:24 PM

Faithless

11-24-2003, 06:24 PM

What does "Asian pride" mean to you?
When did you first realize when you had "Asian pride"?
How does "Asian pride" affect you?
How has your perception of "Asian pride" changed through time?

One of the things I know is that I got a black baseball hat that says it -- and now it seems silly to me to dawn it.

Made in China

11-24-2003, 06:50 PM

I think writing Azn Pryde is......lame. IT makes us seem we speak improper english like most blacks do.

IT makes us seem like we cant write or speak english.

AZN? wTF?

asian pride

kimpossible

11-24-2003, 06:54 PM

I think writing Azn Pryde is......lame. IT makes us seem we speak improper english like most blacks do.

Whoa there... it's not most blacks and it's not necessarily improper. I don't think it's even a good analogy. The weird typing is more akin to internet speak or the 'thumb' generation than ebonics.

deez nuts

11-25-2003, 09:54 AM

it means hating on whitey.

**bows head and raises a fist in the air**

Faithless

11-25-2003, 10:21 AM

it means hating on whitey.

**bows head and raises a fist in the air**

Whitey? Ford or Herzog?

ellsworth81

11-25-2003, 10:25 AM

I think writing Azn Pryde is......lame. IT makes us seem we speak improper english like most blacks do.

IT makes us seem like we cant write or speak english.

don't worry about that part. other americans already think that of Asians and Asian Americans.

and just about nobody speaks/writes properly anymore.

i'm surprised there are no offended parties here.

sdcheung

11-25-2003, 10:34 AM

I have Asian pride, but I think it might be more correct to say I have Chinese or Taiwanese pride.

I can relate..
Only for myself, it's Taiwanese (Mommy's side) Pride and Hakka (Kejia) [Dad's Side] Pride

sdcheung

11-25-2003, 10:39 AM

The connection is that asians are the same race. So the features are similar and because we have similar looking features we are treat the same in the usual case. Most non asians do not care if you are chinese,thai or korean.

I disagree..
Yes, southern Chinese look similar
Northern Chinese look similar, but you put Southern and Northern Chinese together, they don't look similar.

Northern Chinese got that admixture of Turkic, Mongol, and Tungusic blood.
While the Southern Chinese did not, I think they got some "stuff" from the Southern Aboriginies.

personally Southern Chinese are Purer, because they fled the North during the Great Mongol invasion. While those left behind got some "new" blood in them.

AngryABCGirl

11-25-2003, 10:45 AM

I can relate..
Only for myself, it's Taiwanese (Mommy's side) Pride and Hakka (Kejia) [Dad's Side] Pride

My grandparents were from the Shanghai region, but mommy and daddy grew up in Taiwan so I can only relate to that.

sdcheung

11-25-2003, 10:59 AM

Ohhh..
OK.
One of those Hot-Blooded Wu dialect speaking Shanghai-ren.

Must be cute too. :)

rice cracker

11-25-2003, 11:05 AM

Ogumo

11-25-2003, 12:18 PM

I disagree..
Yes, southern Chinese look similar
Northern Chinese look similar, but you put Southern and Northern Chinese together, they don't look similar.

Northern Chinese got that admixture of Turkic, Mongol, and Tungusic blood.
While the Southern Chinese did not, I think they got some "stuff" from the Southern Aboriginies.

personally Southern Chinese are Purer, because they fled the North during the Great Mongol invasion. While those left behind got some "new" blood in them.

True but I notice non asians are much more ignorant when trying to find distinct things that make us look different. The common phrase is "you all look the same". Too many have that mentality.

John0101

11-25-2003, 02:32 PM

I think writing Azn Pryde is......lame. IT makes us seem we speak improper english like most blacks do.

IT makes us seem like we cant write or speak english.

AZN? wTF?

asian pride

I think you missed the point. Your arguement sounded like most blacks don't speak proper english, this is NOT true.

The question is not what does AzN Pryde mean to you, it is what does Asian pride mean to you. A way to think about this is how do you see portray your Asian characteristics in your everyday life? What does being Asian and living in America mean to you? How does being Asian in America affect you?

When somebody ask you to list some adjectives to describe yourself?

Do you find that "Asian" or "Chinese" one of the first adjectives that you would use to describe yourself?

John0101

11-25-2003, 02:42 PM

Not so much Asian pride as Hapa arrogance. I'm kidding.

For me being proud of something I had not control over, such as the color of my skin or the shape of my eyes is strange, but I do feel a sense of pride or ownership when I think about the culture of my mother's people.

I guess I display this "pride" by letting people know right away that I'm half, arguing their stereotypes about Asians, clearing up their flawed perceptions of history, and introducing them to information or whatnot about Asian culture, specifically Korean.

So what is the difference between Hapa pride and Asian pride to you? How do you aknowledge your "white" part? Do you visit "white" message boards (if any that are nonKKK)? How does these identities relate to each other?

I bet many people asked these questions over and over again, maybe i'm asking the wrong questions, but I nevered lived a day in a life of a hapa.

rice cracker

11-25-2003, 03:07 PM

So what is the difference between Hapa pride and Asian pride to you? How do you aknowledge your "white" part? Do you visit "white" message boards (if any that are nonKKK)? How does these identities relate to each other?

I bet many people asked these questions over and over again, maybe i'm asking the wrong questions, but I nevered lived a day in a life of a hapa.

Hm, I guess I don't know what Hapa pride would consist of, other than being "unique." I'm not seeing a lot of Hapa culture anywhere, so I think whatever ethnic pride I have would have to be Asian. I don't visit white message boards, and truth be told my white side is not 100% this or that, but a mix of three different white cultures, so I don't think I can qualify for a German message board or a Norwegian one. Besides, I'm not white and I can't relate or sympathize with white issues. I don't really have to acknowledge my white "part" because I already look white.

I guess I don't understand quite what you're asking for with, " How does these identities relate to each other?" so I'll wait for you to clarify that.

SunWuKong

11-25-2003, 03:16 PM

Hm, I guess I don't know what Hapa pride would consist of, other than being "unique."

best of both worlds!

:beerchug:

ok just playing around.

John0101

11-25-2003, 03:37 PM

Hm, I guess I don't know what Hapa pride would consist of, other than being "unique." I'm not seeing a lot of Hapa culture anywhere, so I think whatever ethnic pride I have would have to be Asian. I don't visit white message boards, and truth be told my white side is not 100% this or that, but a mix of three different white cultures, so I don't think I can qualify for a German message board or a Norwegian one. Besides, I'm not white and I can't relate or sympathize with white issues. I don't really have to acknowledge my white "part" because I already look white.

I guess I don't understand quite what you're asking for with, " How does these identities relate to each other?" so I'll wait for you to clarify that.

First I think people take "pride" in what they relate closest too, these relationships are the differences that people have compared with the dominate majority. (I.E. lesbians take pride in being lesbians because that is how they are different from most people).

White in America has became a genertic term. If your white in America your just "white". I'm not sure but I don't think people in Europe call themselves "white", instead, French, Spanish, etc. Now what if your a Hapa from an European country, France, while you also have a Vietnamese side how does this different from being an Hapa in America. Your now french/viet instead of white/viet. But how does being french and viet relate to each other. I guess this question doen't really relate to you :huh:

But anyways, since there is no hapa pride and instead just ethnic pride how does a Viet/White person relate to a Japanese/White person? Do they, if they do then there is no ethnic pride, so both just have asian pride?

Am I making any sense?

rice cracker

11-25-2003, 03:47 PM

But anyways, since there is no hapa pride and instead just ethnic pride how does a Viet/White person relate to a Japanese/White person? Do they, if they do then there is no ethnic pride, so both just have asian pride?

Am I making any sense?

Like I said, I do have a feeling of pride and ownership when it comes to my Asian side. Also, I identify more as Asian than I do as Eurasian or White, so I would imagine other mixed people who identify the same would have similar feelings. I find the culture and history of my mother's country fascinating, and again, I would imagine other mixed people feeling the same way. But for me to relate to another Eurasian with different ancestry, for example someone who is half Cambodian, well, our Asian sides would be pretty different, so other than general Pan-Asian tendencies/customs, we wouldn't have much in common culturally, but we would still share other issues related to being half Asian.

Hope my ramblings made some sort of sense :)

SunWuKong

11-25-2003, 03:49 PM

in my mind, the word "pride" sort of have a negative connotation. like, stubbornly thinking you're good at or with something, when you may not be.

John0101

11-25-2003, 03:57 PM

in my mind, the word "pride" sort of have a negative connotation. like, stubbornly thinking you're good at or with something, when you may not be.

I think Asian pride isn't the pride of being good at being Asian. Instead it's the awareness and acceptance of being Asian and that you are different from dominate white America. I guess Asian Awareness could also be used by this defination, but pride is a much stronger word used to promote unity. But I think to many other people saying Asian pride alienates them, and isolates us.

Hanuman

11-30-2003, 02:13 PM

I grew up in a mostly white neighborhood, so for me I'd just kinda pretend I wasn't asian, just as some kids are tall, others fat, I was Asian.

I developed Asian pride when I was older and not only did I realize I was different, but that there were other people that were different like me too. Then I started to appreciate our differences and sometimes even find comfort in it.

dragonlord

12-03-2003, 10:19 AM

I "Asians pride" exist anywhere that asians are a minority. There is collective identities and experiences asians share when they don't feel like they belong in mainstream culture.

Not necessarily, John. Asians are the majority in Hawai'i, although it's a state, it's quite isolated (from outside affects). And, there's mucho...I'm talkin' a shitload of Asian Pride over there. They beat up Haoles and everything!

AliBabaIncorporated

12-03-2003, 12:13 PM

Not necessarily, John. Asians are the majority in Hawai'i, although it's a state, it's quite isolated (from outside affects). And, there's mucho...I'm talkin' a shitload of Asian Pride over there. They beat up Haoles and everything!
so? they do that in California too, when they have numbers on their side.

dragonlord

12-03-2003, 12:22 PM

so? they do that in California too, when they have numbers on their side.

Naw, brah! It's one-on-one on the islands. Unless it's a gang-fight...then you're gonna get fucked if you're expecting a nice, clean boxing match type of fight.

What? You got jumped or something?

AliBabaIncorporated

12-03-2003, 12:23 PM

What? You got jumped or something?
shit, how'd ya guess? and I'm not even haole!

Fireblade

12-03-2003, 12:24 PM

asian pride - being not ashamed of asian decent.

Err... my opinon.

ChinaLama

12-03-2003, 12:26 PM

asian pride - being not ashamed of asian decent.

Err... my opinon.

i think pride should be at least a bit more than "not being ashamed." otherwise it'd just be "i'm neutral about being asian." ;)

Fireblade

12-03-2003, 12:28 PM

i think pride should be at least a bit more than "not being ashamed." otherwise it'd just be "i'm neutral about being asian." ;)

Good point. Ok.. redefinition.
Being not ashamed of asian decent, and promoting ideals for the asian community.

ah... much... more.... confusion. :ph34r: :p

dragonlord

12-03-2003, 12:55 PM

shit, how'd ya guess? and I'm not even haole!

If it makes you feel any better, I was jumped too. 10-to-1 AND they had guns. Gooood fun!

Anyways, back on topic...

AliBabaIncorporated

12-03-2003, 12:57 PM

Asian pride should mean large groups of Asians not jumping people.

dragonlord

12-03-2003, 01:02 PM

Asian pride should mean large groups of Asians not jumping people.

Oy! You got jumped, brada! It sucks, I know! But, I bet that they weren't screaming "Asian Pride" when they beat you up, right? So, you shouldn't associate a whupping and empowerment/awareness, as one and the same.

John0101

12-03-2003, 01:05 PM

Not necessarily, John. Asians are the majority in Hawai'i, although it's a state, it's quite isolated (from outside affects). And, there's mucho...I'm talkin' a shitload of Asian Pride over there. They beat up Haoles and everything!

ok, asian pride is the sense of being asian in a white dominated world?

dragonlord

12-03-2003, 01:15 PM

ok, asian pride is the sense of being asian in a white dominated world?

Better, but I wouldn't politicize it as much. I really don't like the fact that it seems we have to seek validation from anyone. I guess, for me, it's awareness of my culture and background, and not being ashamed of showing it. Activism in your community and empowering others to see without "rose-tinted glasses", is pretty important to me too.

Faithless

02-10-2004, 12:06 AM

One guy's take on "Asian pride" or any other ... pride:

Take pride in decency (http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/01/23/opinion/commentary/1_22_0422_01_28.txt)
...
Ultimately, I have to take issue with any form of racial "pride." To my mind, the concept of race is an artificial one, a simplistic mode of classification. What we call "race" is about physical attributes, primarily skin color, stature, and facial features that result from migration patterns and the environment. For example, let's look at the term "Caucasian."

It is used to define all white-skinned people, except for the Ainu, a white-skinned group of Japanese. The word comes from the Caucasus mountains in Russia. Russians indeed are very white-skinned. Many are tall, blond and blue-eyed; most have high cheekbones and almond-shaped eyes. Originally the inhabitants of Russia were Slavs, but when the Vikings came, the resulting children bore Nordic features. Then came the Tartars ---- Mongolian invaders ---- hence the Asian cheekbones and almond eyes.

Caucasian is a blanket term for people who come from hundreds of separate cultures.

It is the "white pride" idea that bothers me. I've seen "White Pride" or "White Power" tattooed on a number of guys fresh out of prison, particularly with those who had been in the Aryan Brotherhood, a racist prison gang.

As with any race, there are good white people, and there are rotten white people. Mother Theresa was white ---- so was Ted Bundy. And I claim no more pride in sharing the same skin color of Mother Theresa than I do shame for Bundy.

I attended Cal State University Dominguez Hills at the time the mini-series "Roots" came out, and many of the black students were upset by the show. One girl in particular lobbed some epithets at me in class, calling me a descendent of a slave owner. Ironically, I come from about 60 miles from the terminus of the Underground Railroad, and I take no shame for the slave owner, nor do I take any credit being a countryman of those who helped free them. I take no pride nor shame in anything I have nothing to do with.

The Judeo-Christian tradition says that all "races" have but two ancestors, Adam and Eve. From a secular viewpoint, anthropologist Louis Leakey also believed that we all have common ancestors ---- in Africa.

Holocaust survivor Viktor Frankl believed that there were only two races ---- the race of decent people and the race of indecent people.

Decency ---- now that's a "race" to be proud of.

That's nice, but I think he misses the point.

There is this ethnic pride that seems to manifest from blacks, Asians, etc., and "white pride" which is a counteractive response.

Asian pride is reactive, too, probably, to societal views that tend to put down Asians.

It is part ethnic pride as well as racial. But not in a racist way, like "white pride" seems to be.

Napoleon Chynamite

02-10-2004, 01:38 AM

One guy's take on "Asian pride" or any other ... pride:

Take pride in decency (http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/01/23/opinion/commentary/1_22_0422_01_28.txt)

That's nice, but I think he misses the point.

There is this ethnic pride that seems to manifest from blacks, Asians, etc., and "white pride" which is a counteractive response.

Asian pride is reactive, too, probably, to societal views that tend to put down Asians.

It is part ethnic pride as well as racial. But not in a racist way, like "white pride" seems to be.

But I definitely have come across some Asian kids who love to use the Asian Pride bandwagon to compose their own reasons (or perpetuate existing ideology) for feeling superior or 'better' than whites and other groups. I guess it's a natural and common phenomenon that so many teenagers go through I guess. Some of us are in our 20's and still stuck ^^

SunWuKong

02-10-2004, 03:26 AM

One guy's take on "Asian pride" or any other ... pride:

Take pride in decency (http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/01/23/opinion/commentary/1_22_0422_01_28.txt)

That's nice, but I think he misses the point.

There is this ethnic pride that seems to manifest from blacks, Asians, etc., and "white pride" which is a counteractive response.

Asian pride is reactive, too, probably, to societal views that tend to put down Asians.

It is part ethnic pride as well as racial. But not in a racist way, like "white pride" seems to be.

another white person with a highly naive liberal view on race. what else is new? we are the world... we are the children....

AngryABCGirl

02-10-2004, 10:51 AM

another white person with a highly naive liberal view on race. what else is new? we are the world... we are the children....

You know what, I'm am starting to get so irritated by that that the irriration is actually making me sicker than the views because I know they're not trying to be ignorant, but they just are. White people have no business writing about race- except for White people.

SunWuKong

02-10-2004, 11:29 AM

You know what, I'm am starting to get so irritated by that that the irriration is actually making me sicker than the views because I know they're not trying to be ignorant, but they just are. White people have no business writing about race- except for White people.

well, i think they can write about race if they want, but it never fails to annoy me because people like the guy who wrote that article seriously lack depth of understanding. and whenever they rant about shit like this, you never hear about whether or not they've tried to understand the point of view of the people they're criticising in the first place. did they even talk to or interview minorities or people who are in these race-based clubs?

Chester

02-10-2004, 01:16 PM

well, i think they can write about race if they want, but it never fails to annoy me because people like the guy who wrote that article seriously lack depth of understanding.
In general, I won't disagree with you, but I'd like to not that ignorant white people are ignorant because they're ignorant, not because they're white.

It would be depressing to think that white people have no business writing about race simply because they're white. If you don't believe that people can learn about each other and develop an enlightened consciousness, then you're essentially giving up on people of different races ever being able to get along.

rice cracker

02-10-2004, 02:08 PM

In general, I won't disagree with you, but I'd like to not that ignorant white people are ignorant because they're ignorant, not because they're white.

It would be depressing to think that white people have no business writing about race simply because they're white. If you don't believe that people can learn about each other and develop an enlightened consciousness, then you're essentially giving up on people of different races ever being able to get along.

In general, though, I would say that white people due to being the majority in this country and enjoying the priveleges that come with that, are not equipped to write about race relations as they can not empathize with a person of color who has been discriminated against. Yes, once in a while there will be a white (or any color) writer with a good grasp of the situation surrounding someone of another race, but more often than not a white writer commenting on race just does not have the experience needed to produce a credible piece of work. So yes, part of the ignorance is due to them being white, and seeing the world through eyes that are blind what minorities see.

Faithless

02-10-2004, 03:03 PM

Yes, once in a while there will be a white (or any color) writer with a good grasp of the situation surrounding someone of another race...
Like Andrew Hacker:

Two Nations: Black and White... (http://lilt.ilstu.edu/gmklass/pos334/archive/hacker.htm#Message1)

rice cracker

02-10-2004, 03:15 PM

Like Andrew Hacker:

Two Nations: Black and White... (http://www.freeessays.cc/db/44/smu266.shtml)

The reviewer seems to think Hacker is off on a few things.

Chester

02-10-2004, 03:24 PM

With regard to Frink and Rice Cracker's posts...

Yeah, obviously, growing up white in the U.S. creates a barrier to empathizing with the minority experience. But there are so many different shades to understanding and knowledge. Race is one factor and perhaps the biggest, but it's not the only one.

Or, let me put it this way: if a Chinese person is ignorant and a white person is enlightened, I don't think the Chinese person trumps the white person in "authority" just by virtue of their race. And even if you make the extremes less...extreme, I think this can hold true. If you're talking about an "all things being equal" situation, fine, but I'm not evaluating which race is better than the other in understanding discrimination...I'm talking about whether or not race is an absolute hindrance to understanding discrimination...

...and I don't think it is.

Faithless

02-10-2004, 03:28 PM

The reviewer seems to think Hacker is off on a few things.
Fixed it.

Chester

02-10-2004, 03:29 PM

In general, though, I would say that white people due to being the majority in this country...
Or another way of phrasing myself is that, while I would agree to that general statement, in principal, I think that exceptions abound to the extent that the stereotypes don't serve a great deal of utility.

I just don't like blanket statements in the sense that they lead to treating people as one of a type rather than the individuals they are. So, while I understand that ignorance can certainly stem from a sheltered, "white upbringing," I would prefer to look at it as a sheltered upbringing rather than a white upbringing.

And so..."ignorant white person" is distasteful as the label people should use (IMO), is "ignorant person."

SunWuKong

02-10-2004, 03:34 PM

I'm talking about whether or not race is an absolute hindrance to understanding discrimination...

...and I don't think it is.

just using the word "discrimination", that's a broad statement. i'm sure all the handicapped people who are white understand discrimination. etc etc.

to narrow it down, personally, i think a white person will never understand how it feels to be racially discriminated or marginalised by American society for being a minority. this has larger ramifications and often, combined with arrogance or plain stupidity (thinking that race is completely superficial and therefore thinking that they're in a position to know how it is to be a minority) will lead some white people to express opinions like the article above.

and yes, race is an absolute hindrance in this case.

SunWuKong

02-10-2004, 03:41 PM

Or another way of phrasing myself is that, while I would agree to that general statement, in principal, I think that exceptions abound to the extent that the stereotypes don't serve a great deal of utility.

I just don't like blanket statements in the sense that they lead to treating people as one of a type rather than the individuals they are. So, while I understand that ignorance can certainly stem from a sheltered, "white upbringing," I would prefer to look at it as a sheltered upbringing rather than a white upbringing.

And so..."ignorant white person" is distasteful as the label people should use (IMO), is "ignorant person."

there's a difference between generalisations and stereotypes.
Asian people have black hair. that is a generalisation. not all Asian people have black hair, but i'm willing to bet that statistically speaking, most Asian people do have black hair.
black people are good at basketball. that is a stereotype. just because the majority of NBA players are black, does not mean that the majority of black people are good at basketball. it is a statistical error and saying black people are good at basketball as a blanket statement is, therefore, incorrect.

that being said, i personally don't think there is anything wrong with generalisations. and i don't think it's a stereotype to say that white people don't understand race relations.

Chester

02-10-2004, 03:49 PM

just using the word "discrimination", that's a broad statement. i'm sure all the handicapped people who are white understand discrimination. etc etc.
Good point. I still feel the same way, however, if "racism" is substituted in.
to narrow it down, personally, i think a white person will never understand how it feels to be racially discriminated or marginalised by American society for being a minority.
While a white person may never get as much of a visceral understanding of what it's like to be a minority, I think that a white person is capable of understanding enough.

That is, to me, it's not a pissing match about who can achieve the highest level of understanding (not to imply that it is, to you). It's about whether or not individuals can achieve a level of understanding that allows them to live life as an overridingly fair-minded and non-discriminating member of a multi-cultural society. I think this is possible for people of all races.

So, with the above example, I would still focus on ignorance rather than race, as I think race might be a contributing factor, but it's not an outright cause.

Chester

02-10-2004, 04:02 PM

there's a difference between generalisations and stereotypes. [Examples snipped.]
Certainly.
that being said, i personally don't think there is anything wrong with generalisations. and i don't think it's a stereotype to say that white people don't understand race relations.
Well, the generalizations you used are pretty benign ones. When generalizations are extended out to behavior and individual personality traits, I think there is something wrong with relying on generalizations to inform your personal opinions. I think it leads to lazy thinking where you're waiting for generalizations to be disproven rather than evaluating each situation and each person as a unique one.

To me, "generalization" and "stereotype" are basically the same thing...but a stereotype is basically a politicized generalization. So, basically, any "harmful" generalization is a stereotype. Is that more or less what you're thinking, or do you have a different interpretation?

Anyway, whether or not it's a generalization or a stereotype to say that whites are not capable of understanding race relations, I think it would be an unfair and unproductive statement to make.

SunWuKong

02-10-2004, 04:24 PM

Certainly.

Well, the generalizations you used are pretty benign ones. When generalizations are extended out to behavior and individual personality traits, I think there is something wrong with relying on generalizations to inform your personal opinions. I think it leads to lazy thinking where you're waiting for generalizations to be disproven rather than evaluating each situation and each person as a unique one.

To me, "generalization" and "stereotype" are basically the same thing...but a stereotype is basically a politicized generalization. So, basically, any "harmful" generalization is a stereotype. Is that more or less what you're thinking, or do you have a different interpretation?

Anyway, whether or not it's a generalization or a stereotype to say that whites are not capable of understanding race relations, I think it would be an unfair and unproductive statement to make.

well maybe we can agree to disagree then. just to be fair, even though this is implicit unless qualifiers such as "never" and "always" are used - i think most white people do not understand race relations enough.