"Functional knowledge" about racial identity?

[>:^|]

What would you consider required information for learning about Asian American racial identity? Are there readings that you think might be helpful for non-Asians in learning about the development of racial identity?

I had several books in mind:
- Yellow, by Frank Wu
- Yen Le Espiritu's book, the title of which escapes me at this moment (it's something like "Asian American Women and Men")
- Race, Rights and the Asian American Experience, by Angelo Ancheta
- (Anthology of personal essays by Asian American authors. The cover is green and has a picture of a woman posing like the statue of liberty)

but would appreciate suggestions, especially shorter readings or articles.

[nonamerasian]

Wouldn't talking to Asian-Americans and listening to them discuss racial identity be best?

[kitty]

I hated Yellow. I wouldn't recommend it just because it tries to do exactly what the title says that it's trying to combat -- placing Asian Americans as a 'comparative identity' to African Americans and White Americans.

I would throw in some literature books and history books, maybe even more so than the books you've listed.

Takaki's Strangers from a Different Shore
David Wong Louie's Barbarians are Coming
Native Speaker
Woman Warrior

Orientalism by Edward Said should be thrown in there too, probably.

There's a reader that I had for AAS 101 which was called "Asian American reader"... good collection of copies of original source documentation and personal essays.

[SunWuKong]

moving to... Rant? not sure if it belongs there. i didn't have in mind for the Diaspora forum to be specifically on Asian American issues, but more about "the motherland". i'll move it back there if people think this thread fits better there.

[kitty]

you can put it in AE if you think it fits there... y'know... books... ehhh... maybe not really?

[>:^|]

Ehhh ... maybe leave it in rant, I might rant later.

nonamerasian, ideally people would speak to actual Asian Americans. Unfortunately many don't. I thought about having a panel, but at times this can be very hard on the panelists.

kittygirl, which Asian American Reader were you thinking of? There's one edited by Amy Tachiki and one edited by Jean Yu-Wen Shen Wu listed on Amazon.

Sorry, this is an evolving thought process. I was also wondering what specific concepts or ideas might be covered. It's really hard to get people to read books, especially long books or academic books. I guess what I'm asking is how one would put together a primer on Asian Americans for Dummies or something.

[kitty]

Wu and I think there was a co-editor, named Song. I haven't read Tachiki's...but the Wu&Song (or Wong) was an excellent reader... that in and of itself would make a good Asian Americans for Dummies book...

[SunWuKong]

you can put it in AE if you think it fits there... y'know... books... ehhh... maybe not really?

yeah it's mostly talking about books, isn't it?
but i think acquiring "functional knowledge" about racial identity shouldn't be limited to what you're reading. and to be honest, i question how "functional" your knowledge is if you depend on literature.

[SunWuKong]

on a side-note. who is interested in co-authoring a "Being Asian American for Dummies" book? :laugh:

[kimpossible]

on a side-note. who is interested in co-authoring a "Being Asian American for Dummies" book? :laugh:

me, so i can smugly wallow in the irony of me instructing others on being asian.

[Craig]

on a side-note. who is interested in co-authoring a "Being Asian American for Dummies" book? :laugh:
I'd volunteer, but most Asian Americans think I'm a fob.

[kitty]

on a side-note. who is interested in co-authoring a "Being Asian American for Dummies" book? :laugh:

love to, but then no one would read it :laugh: :dry:...

[SunWuKong]

love to, but then no one would read it :laugh: :dry:...

no i think people would read it. the only problem is the copyright. i doubt the company that publishes the For Dummies series will let us do this. :p

[kitty]

no i think people would read it. the only problem is the copyright. i doubt the company that publishes the For Dummies series will let us do this. :p

you could if you went through them. you write the book and sell it to them... and you get a cut of the royalties :happy:

[SunWuKong]

you could if you went through them. you write the book and sell it to them... and you get a cut of the royalties :happy:

but what i mean is i don't think they'd want to have such a book under their series.

[>:^|]

yeah it's mostly talking about books, isn't it?
but i think acquiring "functional knowledge" about racial identity shouldn't be limited to what you're reading. and to be honest, i question how "functional" your knowledge is if you depend on literature.

So how do you get it?
Or how do you teach it? Where do you start?

I wouldn't rule out writing Asian America for Dummies. I think there are books on subjects like Islam, Afghanistan, etc. ;-)

[kitty]

They have like "The Vietnam War for Dummies" but no like African American or Asian American history for dummies book...

[TB4000]

They have like "The Vietnam War for Dummies" but no like African American or Asian American history for dummies book...


See, if I read the african american for dummies, I'd get the moniker of "sellout" for real then....you'd get the impression that I was trying to learn how to be "black" even though I already am.

[SunWuKong]

They have like "The Vietnam War for Dummies" but no like African American or Asian American history for dummies book...

oh really? i thought those For Dummies books are all "how to" books. hmm maybe this will work. but you know what, i was really thinking about writing a humour book. it's a play on the irony that the Asian American identity is so fractured that a lot of people don't know what it is.

[kimpossible]

a parody?

[SunWuKong]

a parody?

yeah. it'll be full of stereotypes, and you know some of them aren't just stereotypes. :p

[hooligan]

I hated Yellow. I wouldn't recommend it just because it tries to do exactly what the title says that it's trying to combat -- placing Asian Americans as a 'comparative identity' to African Americans and White Americans.

I would throw in some literature books and history books, maybe even more so than the books you've listed.

Takaki's Strangers from a Different Shore
David Wong Louie's Barbarians are Coming
Native Speaker
Woman Warrior

Orientalism by Edward Said should be thrown in there too, probably.

There's a reader that I had for AAS 101 which was called "Asian American reader"... good collection of copies of original source documentation and personal essays.
i really enjoyed yellow, i thought frank wu was trying to place asian pacific american racial identity in context of african and white racial identities. i thought it did a great job in promoting apa liberalism. i don't think it was trying to defeat 'comparative identities' because i'm not entirely sure what you mean by that?

[AngryABCGirl]

I read a little of Yellow and I hated it.
I'm begining to think EVERYONE needs some knowledge on racial idenities as a whole. I'm disgusted with how stupid anyone can be lately.

[kitty]

Well, I had Frank Wu over at my campus for a talk for Asian American Heritage Week back when the book opened... and he gave this whole talk that I thought was quite good, about how the asian American existence is different and important and cannot be placed as "relative" to the African American or White American experience. It's not "halfway between white and black" as it is often placed in mainstream society. Thus, the book is about "Asian Americans beyond black and white".

Unfortunately, his use of "just like when blacks did X", makes it exactly what it's trying to fight against, yet another "racial identity" book that supports the idea that the asian American experience needs to be in the context of the black-white racial paradigm in our country. Ugh. (Plus Frank Wu's a pompous dick)

[SunWuKong]

ok good. thanks for confirming that Yellow isn't a book that i need to read. i'm suspect of a lot of Asian American sociological books because of all the whining about oppressive Asian parents and self-congradulations of breaking traditions by marrying a white dude.

[hooligan]

Well, I had Frank Wu over at my campus for a talk for Asian American Heritage Week back when the book opened... and he gave this whole talk that I thought was quite good, about how the asian American existence is different and important and cannot be placed as "relative" to the African American or White American experience. It's not "halfway between white and black" as it is often placed in mainstream society. Thus, the book is about "Asian Americans beyond black and white".

Unfortunately, his use of "just like when blacks did X", makes it exactly what it's trying to fight against, yet another "racial identity" book that supports the idea that the asian American experience needs to be in the context of the black-white racial paradigm in our country. Ugh. (Plus Frank Wu's a pompous dick)
haha thanks, i read his book 2 years ago, i'm going to have to re-read it for some highlights.

[kitty]

rad, you could check out the "idiot's guide" series... they have more history and stuff... the for dummies stuff is more of a how-to thing.

[kboy75]

I liked Maxine Hong Kingston's China Men more than Woman Warrior because it tackled the effeminate portrayal of Asian men more.

Ronald Takaki's Strangers from a Different Shore is a great book and probably one of the most provacative books on AA history. Take it with a grain of salt howver. Takaki can get angry and I'd even dare say that he is one of the most reverse-racist (for lack of a better word) guys out there in asian american academia.


If you're a guy you will love Lee's Native Speaker cause all they do is go drinking and go to room salons and he marries a white girl. An interesting perspective. I actually liked A Gesture Of Life a lot as well.

Also I'd recommend Shawn Wong's American Knees. Great short read.

[kitty]

Well, I would recommend Woman Warrior over China Men *because* it deals more with Asian women than Asian men -- the other two books that I recommend go very much into depth.

Has anyone else read Barbarians are Coming? It's one of the best AA literature books out there, IMO, but I haven't yet heard of anyone else who's read it.

Oh, and Takaki was okay, but you're right, he got too much into it, and it was also very difficult to read. There's another, more objective book out there on AA history... I'll get the title and author when I go home.

[hooligan]

rad, you could check out the "idiot's guide" series... they have more history and stuff... the for dummies stuff is more of a how-to thing.

link me to a webpage?

[hooligan]

Well, I would recommend Woman Warrior over China Men *because* it deals more with Asian women than Asian men -- the other two books that I recommend go very much into depth.

Has anyone else read Barbarians are Coming? It's one of the best AA literature books out there, IMO, but I haven't yet heard of anyone else who's read it.

Oh, and Takaki was okay, but you're right, he got too much into it, and it was also very difficult to read. There's another, more objective book out there on AA history... I'll get the title and author when I go home.

i've read woman warrior, but i haven't read china men. from what i understand china men is more about life in china than life in the us. woman warrior was the first aa book that i read and i loved it :). then again i was in 10th grade.

i've heard of Barbarians are Coming and I have yet to read it. Do you know who wrote it?

[>:^|]

AzNBuffGrL, why did you hate Yellow? There were some parts I didn't like, and some parts I thought were just plain weird (like his section on dog eating), but overall I felt he had pretty good coverage of many Asian American issues.

I think that when he said "race beyond black and white" he was setting himself up for failure; I'm not sure how you might set up the Asian American issue without using at least some comparisons? The black-white paradigm is so deeply embedded that I think it would be difficult to diverge from that. Kittygirl, what are you thinking about how identity could be presented that would break free of this paradigm?

Also, I felt Wu didn't recognize that gender plays a huge role in Asian American identity and glossed over specific issues peculiar to women. And too bad he's a pompous dick. I always hate when I meet somebody that I admire for some reason and find that to be the case.

I read one of Hong Kingston's fiction books, but I don't think I read either of the ones mentioned. Has anybody read Frank Chin's criticism of her?

Thanks for all the book recommendations ... I'll have to check them out. I read Native Speaker but it didn't make much of an impression on me. Guess I'll have to re-read it.

But getting back to the original topic ...

What basic knowledge is missing for most non-Asian Americans? What fundamental thoughts would you want to convey? I have been encountering a lot of evidence of how stupid people can be but I'm wondering how that can be changed.

[kitty]

i've read woman warrior, but i haven't read china men. from what i understand china men is more about life in china than life in the us. woman warrior was the first aa book that i read and i loved it :). then again i was in 10th grade.

i've heard of Barbarians are Coming and I have yet to read it. Do you know who wrote it?

David Wong Louie :) I highly suggest it, specially if you're looking for a book that addresses AM/WF relationships (or lack thereof) and Asian male emasculation stereotypes and realities.

[kitty]

AzNBuffGrL, why did you hate Yellow? There were some parts I didn't like, and some parts I thought were just plain weird (like his section on dog eating), but overall I felt he had pretty good coverage of many Asian American issues.

I think that when he said "race beyond black and white" he was setting himself up for failure; I'm not sure how you might set up the Asian American issue without using at least some comparisons? The black-white paradigm is so deeply embedded that I think it would be difficult to diverge from that. Kittygirl, what are you thinking about how identity could be presented that would break free of this paradigm?

Also, I felt Wu didn't recognize that gender plays a huge role in Asian American identity and glossed over specific issues peculiar to women. And too bad he's a pompous dick. I always hate when I meet somebody that I admire for some reason and find that to be the case.

I read one of Hong Kingston's fiction books, but I don't think I read either of the ones mentioned. Has anybody read Frank Chin's criticism of her?

Thanks for all the book recommendations ... I'll have to check them out. I read Native Speaker but it didn't make much of an impression on me. Guess I'll have to re-read it.

But getting back to the original topic ...

What basic knowledge is missing for most non-Asian Americans? What fundamental thoughts would you want to convey? I have been encountering a lot of evidence of how stupid people can be but I'm wondering how that can be changed.


Well, I agree, the black-white paradigm is very much entrenched in our society, and that's what needs to change. People think of race, and more importantly of racism as a two-point hierarchy or ladder, where blacks are "most oppressed" and whites do the most oppressing. While, this is functional, it doesn't allow for the possibility that Asian American, Latino American, or Native American experiences can't be rated on a scale of oppression as being better or worse than someone else's experiences.

What needs to happen is we need to challenge that paradigm and those who believe in it by addressing the problems with it. We need to point out how it's difficult or impossible to do a comparative experience discussion.

And I think most Asian Americans nowadays lack a knowledge of Asian American history. Many don't know who Vincent Chin, Wen Ho Lee, or anyone else is, let alone about the LA riots, etc... That's why I recommend history books and then let the people make up their own minds after they have that knowledge.

[hooligan]

David Wong Louie :) I highly suggest it, specially if you're looking for a book that addresses AM/WF relationships (or lack thereof) and Asian male emasculation stereotypes and realities.
what's your opinion of American Knees?

[>:^|]

I had not heard of American Knees until I saw Shawn Wong in the PBS special on Chinese Americans. I'm going to have to check it out.

By the way, thanks to everybody for all the reading suggestions. I'm going to have to check them out. I bought just about every Takaki book available through abebooks for about $4 each. Also bought two Mari Matsudas. :D

One of the things that bugs me the most about non-Asians (mostly Whites) is the presumption that their experience is all-encompassing. When I told somebody that the term "china doll" is considered offensive, she disputed it. Part of her argument? "I'm 30 years old, have travelled widely through Europe, and have never heard of this."