Gay Adoptions - A Dialogue

[kimpossible]

i don't know, seeing your mommy as a male and your father as a male indicates something has gone wrong down the line.

this isn't meant as a flame, so i hope you don't take it that way but i disagree as to what is 'more damaging' for kids. hetero couples have a divorce rate of over half... and it's not uncommon for hetero couples to get remarried which have even higher divorce rates... and some don't get married at all and you get this my baby's daddy and my baby's mommy scenarios. in total, hetero people fuck up far more kids.

and if the kid is up for adoption that means some hetero couple didn't want him or her or was incapable for caring for a child.

[Chris]

you can argue around different scenarios and generally i do agree with you. hetero couples do screw up their marriages and yes they do sometimes put their children up for adoption, but lets not use this as a valid argument for justifying gay couples to adopt kids. i'm willing to retract my statement that gay couples should not marry, after all, it's their choice and they are willing to do it, but i'm still sticking with the idea that such couples should not be allowed to adopt children.


Now as a gay man. What give you the right to make MY decision to adopt a children who in other terms might be lost in the system. Giving him/her the attention and education to be independent and learn that our family is a different type of family. You assuming that these children won't be able to learn and adapt. I have a couple of freinds who were raise by two gay parents and they are HETERO. They fully understand the concept and have become normal p roductive member of society. I'm sorry LL i don't see your point. You need to come up with a stronger point of arguement. If I have to make my freinds joined YW to counter your points. I will.

[Napoleon Chynamite]

What is the big deal about marriage anyway, it's simply a socially glorified relationship is what it is. It's just a legal piece of paper making it illegal for your partner to have sex with anyone else (i.e. why most guys agree to get married), and plus if things go wrong the other guy/girl gets half your shit when you break up (i.e. why most girls agree to get married).

[Chris]

look, getting married to another man is your decision. however, when you're talking about adopting a kid you unduly putting his/her life under so much more strain. what happens when the kid goes to school and the other kids tease him/her that both their parents are going to be of the same gender? you know, as i do, that kids are cruel and making fun of your child will make their lives a misery. think about the child. that is all.


LL let me ask you this. Do you know anyone to make this assumption that their lives will be misbesable. I can produced 3 people that can prove your statement to be wrong. They are straight children of gay couples. Give me your basis of your arguement to that effect and then we will talk.

You are talking about kids being miserable with gay parents. I am not talking about marriage right now. You turn it something else.

[kimpossible]

you can argue around different scenarios and generally i do agree with you. hetero couples do screw up their marriages and yes they do sometimes put their children up for adoption, but lets not use this as a valid argument for justifying gay couples to adopt kids.


I justify nothing. You stated the adoption of children by same sex couples was more damaging in absolute terms than children that have parents of both genders. I didn't make a claim that was pro-gay adoption, I merely cited statistics of divorce, remarriage and divorce, and the increasing trend of unmarried parents who often drift apart and choose not to take advantage of marriage laws that work to protect their family to illustrate that having heterosexual parents, and even heterosexual biological parents, is not a determining factor or guarantee that something will not go wrong down the line.

If the concern is doing what's in the best interest of children on the largest possible scale you'd have to regulate breeding and hetero marriage.

[AngryABCGirl]

At least when a gay couple adopts a kid, they know they're ready to adopt a kid and take care of him or her, which is a lot more than I can say for most heterosexual couples.

[kimpossible]

so are you in agreement with me that regardless of statistics having parents of both sexes is better in the long term than parents of single sexes?

No. I think it depends on the parents in question. You can reinterpret that to fit you're description if you'd like, I have no problem with the idea of agreeing with you per se, but parenting is an everyday, lifetime commitment. It's like marriage, you'll never know if it was a fairy tale like romance until the very end.

Not all gay people are fit parents just as not all straight people are fit parents. Some kids don't want to be adopted by gay parents, some don't care. Some kids are abused by their hetero foster parents. Some biological 'hetero' parents molest their children. It's a fucked up world with a lot of fucked up people. Gay, straight whatever. I'm for competent, caring people having children that won't grow up to rape me, rob me or kill me. I don't give a rat's ass if they're gay or straight, so long as they're dedicated, capable parents.

[kimpossible]

i admire your liberal views

you can call it liberal i guess. i'm actually rather conservative. married, yuppie, middle class and i'm a total bear on personal responsibility. i'm for a death penalty, i wish political assasination was adopted by the US, i'm pro-military and pro-cop, but on personal issues i don't give a flying fuck. i'm a classist: i like educated, smart people. screw race, gender and sexual orientation, i want efficiency and it's inefficient to regulate someone else's right to have a family or love.

i mean shit, let's get tougher on those molestors that pose as priests... let's worry about the economy... who gives a damn what people are doing with their genitalia. i'll worry about my private parts, you worry about yours. it's attention spent on something that isn't inherently wrong or a problem. i guess if you want to spend your time worrying about gay people moreso than other things, that's your perogative, but for real - why? worrying over someone else's sex life would bore me to tears. i'm horny, my sexual orientation is the only one i care about. the beast must be fed.

[hapakristina]

i'm gonna get flamed for this,even worse i may be banned, but what the heck i'm just stating my opinion: same-sexed marriages should not be legalised for the sake of society. especially, when it comes to the idea that such same-sexed couples should be allowed to adopt a boy or girl. i think it is better for children to be brought up with both parents of different sexes. i don't know, seeing your mommy as a male and your father as a male indicates something has gone wrong down the line.

i don't think your comments are ban-worthy. you're stating your opinion on the matter and you did it in a respectful manner. however, despite this.. i disagree with you.

i don't think it's a fair statement to say that same-sex marriages are detrimental to society. there are a lot of things that are detrimental to society (hell, go check out all the racism towards whites being approved in the other thread).. but same-sex marriages aren't one of them. for one thing, they don't harm or hurt anyone else. also, because being homosexual or having homosexual tendencies hasn't been disproven to be biologically linked.. i don't think it's fair to say that people that are homosexual shouldn't be allowed to wed. why should they be denied such a right because they happen to like people of the same sex?

as far as your comments regarding the adoption of kids by gay couples.. while i understand the concern that could go with it.. i think it comes down to one thing. what's best for the child. i don't think going from foster home to foster home and possibly never having a chance to be raised in a loving household is really fair to children. i think gay couples are capable of showing a child the love that they so need, despite one gender not being present among the parental control. as some have mentioned, look at the divorce rate.. look at how many single parents out there with an absent parent.. look at how many married heterosexual couples out there that never belonged having children in the first place having the opportunity to "raise" children.. look at all the abuse and shit kids go through with both parents. i think the love that a gay couple could give a kid is far greater than those circumstances and furthermore, adopted kids usually receive some kind of counseling and supervision to make sure there's no abuse and kids are being taken care of.

being raised by a gay couple may be a different experience, but certainly not detrimental to society. it won't turn a child gay, as how many gay individuals do we see coming out of straight homes. and i'm sure there are many children being raised by a gay parent that walk away straight. my concern wouldn't be in what others think, but the environment that a gay couple could provide a child. all adopted kids really long for is someone to love them. gay couples can provide that.

i think allowing gay couples to adopt kids will show children that here are two people that love one another regardless of gender and wanted to share their love with a child. again, children that are adopted really just want someone to love them. as long as gay parents don't try to pressure their children to be something they're not.. i see absolutely nothing wrong with it. and i don't think it's anyone's place to say it's wrong. it would ultimately not affect you or your life.. but it may make one (or more) child a happier, healthier, loved child by his or her newfound parents. as i stated, there are a lot more things in this world that are detrimental to society that people should be concerned about.

[etcj]

i think allowing gay couples to adopt kids will show children that here are two people that love one another regardless of gender and wanted to share their love with a child. again, children that are adopted really just want someone to love them. as long as gay parents don't try to pressure their children to be something they're not.. i see absolutely nothing wrong with it. and i don't think it's anyone's place to say it's wrong. it would ultimately not affect you or your life.. but it may make one (or more) child a happier, healthier, loved child by his or her newfound parents. as i stated, there are a lot more things in this world that are detrimental to society that people should be concerned about.
Yay, I love you! Well I got to say that YW folks have done a good job in defending GLBT folks from the type of slandering that comes from homophobia and heterosexism. Why "slandering"? Opinions epoused by similarly-minded folks as LL_Cool_D usually fail to address some inherent/innate homophobia that exists in the fears and concerns regarding the healthy development of children. So ask yourself the obvious question: Are you convinced that gay people intentionally seek out to convert children into gays and lesbians? If you honestly think that is true, then perhaps that is the real issue - not that gay parents are inappropriate parents.

Frankly, I'm quite scared of people who mask their homophobia by diverting attention away from that very fact, particularly by shifting into this concern over the welfare of children. In everyday normal circumstances, people who could give a crap about children and raising children (in addition to not having children themselves) will be so quick to offer their moral perspectives regarding adoption. From a previous thread that I started about gay adoption, a YW member made the great comment that there are thousands of orphans in the world who are waiting to be loved and taken care of by potential adoptive parents. To exclude an entire segment of the population based on your homophobia hurts not only expecting parents, but the children who have to live alone in that unhealthy environment gay-adoption opponents are criticizing.

[tapestrybabe]

i admire your liberal views, and i do agree with you on that both parents - hetero and homo are capable of not giving love, but i'm still disagreeing on whether homosexuals should adopt children. biologically, if they are not meant for children then why should they adopt children? what kind of a message would it give to children and to a greater extent society if the government allowed gays to adopt children? what kind of a message would it give to the children if gay parents were making love and the child sees it? would the child be influenced by this? would the child i feel will be confused. it's a safe bet that they would. after all, a child's thought can be especially influenced when they are that age.
i'm an adoptee...
my mother is out of the closet as a lesbian...
i see no problems seeing homosexuals adopting...
i'd rather see them adopt than see them go thru the whole
surrogate mother ordeal and what not...

[>:^|]

i'm just worried about the effects it may have on the child in question. like i said in a previous post, if homosexuals want to get married then let them. it's their choice and no one else's but adopting a child is definitely not the way to go. think about it in the long run. a child, for it to have a normal life must receive and experience life and love from both parents that are different genders. otherwise, there would be a really warped view of life and family life.

Seems like somebody is worried about a little more than this. Like maybe his own masculinity is threatened. Like maybe why else would somebody want to post fifty gazillion times about it.

Children grow up in all kinds of circumstances that don't include the traditional mother-father pairing. They live with grandparents, with siblings, with close friends, with aunts and uncles, with single parents ... Research hasn't shown that children are adversely affected by having gay/lesbian parents. And the "biology" argument doesn't bear any weight with me. Infertile couples, singles, old people all adopt.

If anything, gays and lesbians suffer additional scrutiny when they adopt because of societal prejudices. People talk a lot about "protecting the children," but the reality has been that gays and lesbians have long been able to adopt special needs kids (older kids, children of color, kids with disabilities) when they weren't considered appropriate parents for "regular" kids. This displays the gross hypocrisy of the argument about "protecting kids."

And getting back to the subject at hand ... I see gay marriage as an equal rights issue, plain and simple.

[etcj]

i don't know about being homophobic but there were a few incidents where white grown males have tried to touch me. damn, i was upset and i should have kicked the crap out of them. i don't care if you're a homosexual but please don't go snooping around looking for some anal hole to stick your schlong into.
I think you've perhaps illustrated the point that I was trying to make. Your past "experiences" with non-heterosexual people were not positive ones, therefore you're transferring that negativity to your perceptions/assumptions about gay parenting. Not to be overly bitchy, but what gives you the idea that any guy would want to stick their schlong up just any guy's ass, especially yours? The idea that all gay people are sexual predators is the reason why homophobes want to deny them privileges such as marriage and child custody. Sadly enough, should it be called a privilege? Most YW folks refer to these things as rights, which kind of comforting to see...

Perhaps the moment I start questioning your ability to have children and start parenting is when you might then tell me that it's none of my business. There is no god-given right to be a parent, otherwise there'd be divine intervention for all the bad parents abusing their children, or that there would be no lonely orphan who has to wait out their childhood to find someone is willing to love them. I never underestimate the power of prejudice in this world, because people will never admit to their own biases. Hey, I'm no saint either, and perhaps like Hello_Hapa, I have views that some might find outside of the liberal-norm. I think the admission/acceptance of our biases is the first step to recognizing that we're all human - and that we all deserve to have the same rights and privileges as human beings.

(Gotta turn down that drama-meter...)

[Chris]

i don't know about being homophobic but there were a few incidents where white grown males have tried to touch me. damn, i was upset and i should have kicked the crap out of them. i don't care if you're a homosexual but please don't go snooping around looking for some anal hole to stick your schlong into.

Obviously someone needs to check his masculinity. There you go again. Now you are being homophobic and racist and playing it off as something else. People respect you when you say: "Hey I am not gay." Most gay men will get that message. No mean No. So quit frontin who you are. Because we all see right through you.

[Fireblade]

Ok, I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion, so respect LL Cool D's views. I don't totally agree with all his points, but I can understand why he mentions that the child may have to go though a life of taunting and teasing.

Basically, if your child (if raised by openly gay parents) has to confront society's opinion of gay marriages. I know that most of us are in California, and these same sex marriages do work for us, since much of it is accepted. However if you go out to say, North Dakota, the child will recieve a lifetime of insults and a general community opinion of the child and their parents going to hell.

We all can openly accept the fact that gay marriages and adoption can work. What doesn't work, as with the marriages, is the acceptance of it's nature in society. People will openly bash the child and the parents. We can't ignore that fact.

However, I think in the proper enviornments this a good thing, but until this is more widely accepted we can't automatically assume that this is the best thing. The last thing we need is a Matthew Shepard incident happening again, except in this case, it involves a family.

[tapestrybabe]

your opinion is just as valid as mine.
yeah,
but i have the EXPERIENCE of being an adoptee with a homosexual mother...
and your opinions of your worries about the effects on us...
i can personally vouch... i've never grown up with such confusion as you stated...

[tapestrybabe]

i'm just worried about the effects it may have on the child in question. like i said in a previous post, if homosexuals want to get married then let them. it's their choice and no one else's but adopting a child is definitely not the way to go. think about it in the long run. a child, for it to have a normal life must receive and experience life and love from both parents that are different genders. otherwise, there would be a really warped view of life and family life.
and from EXPERIENCE...
as an adoptee with a homosexual mother...
i dont see what your so worried about
when it comes to the effect it may have on me...
i'm fine with it...

[>:^|]

We all can openly accept the fact that gay marriages and adoption can work. What doesn't work, as with the marriages, is the acceptance of it's nature in society. People will openly bash the child and the parents. We can't ignore that fact.

Well, I see that the same is true for transracial adoption. And interracial marriages. And single adoption. And for same-race biological families. Heck, my family was subjected to quite a bit of harrassment. Maybe we should have just not existed.

This is kind of like saying that people of color should be submissive and should try to stay out White people's way.

And while I would like to agree in theory about "respecting others' opinions," I don't believe everybody's opinion is worthy of respect. Especially when it's uninformed, ignorant, lacking in any substantive basis, and disrespectful to others here.

[Fireblade]

Well, I see that the same is true for transracial adoption. And interracial marriages. And single adoption. And for same-race biological families. Heck, my family was subjected to quite a bit of harrassment. Maybe we should have just not existed.

This is kind of like saying that people of color should be submissive and should try to stay out White people's way.



Do not twist my words. I simply implied the point that LL Cool D was trying to make. If you want to ignore the fact that some of the problems I implied don't happen, then you're not looking at the problem holistically. There are problems in society that I'm addressing, but I am in no way saying that you should not exist.

Everyone has a right to be where they want to be. However there is a REAL problem of having to deal with those who don't want them there. Don't go off-topic.

[tapestrybabe]

Do not twist my words. I simply implied the point that LL Cool D was trying to make. If you want to ignore the fact that some of the problems I implied don't happen, then you're not looking at the problem holistically. There are problems in society that I'm addressing, but I am in no way saying that you should not exist.
your quite right...
such problems regarding the perceptions of homosexuals do exists...
ALTHo, i have to say... i am not against gay parents adopting a child
for the reasons that LL Cool D stated... he can talk all he wants about how he's concerned about the child... but i'll be damned if he starts accusing me of growing up with a distorted warp view of life and family...

as a transracial adoptee...
i prolly have more issues regarding the race of my parents...
as opposed to having a lesbian mother...

[Chris]

how am i being racist? maybe a little homophobic but not racist. dude, i did'nt even get to that stage. these men who tried to touch me up were complete strangers. one happened in a pool and another in university.


You generalize the whole group of gay in the flick of a few type words. You need to reevualate where you are placing the blame. I'm sorry that has happen to you. I honestly do. But to put all the gay men in that same catergory does not do us justice. Without given some other people the chance to view things in a different light, what justice does that to you to and understanding. You're doing yourself an injustice for letting a few bad eggs ruin your views. If I was to meet you in person I would never do such a thing. There will always going to be prevert in this world. How you going to deal with it. That's up to you. You cannot judge me or any of the GBLT members of this forum until you know us in person. But what you type on this forum I will judge. Real life is another issue.

[hapakristina]

in all fairness, if we're asking someone that feels differently about this matter to not judge the GBLT community then it would make sense that we not begin to place judgment and label him a homophobe. i don't think he's ever indicated that he's scared or has a phobia of the gay community. he's only indicated that he does not agree with same-sex marriages and the adoption of children from gay couples in relation to how he feels it affects society and what he deems to be "natural" (men and women producing off-spring, thus being "meant" for one another). it's his opinion and while we don't have to agree with it, we should all still respect him as an individual with the right to have a different view on this subject.

[tapestrybabe]

he's only indicated that he does not agree with same-sex marriages and the adoption of children from gay couples in relation to how he feels it affects society and what he deems to be "natural" (men and women producing off-spring, thus being "meant" for one another). it's his opinion and while we don't have to agree with it, we should all still respect him as an individual with the right to have a different view on this subject.
of course he's entitled to his point of view...
but all i'm saying i'm talking about from EXPERIENCE...
growing up as an adoptee with a gay mother...

and like i said, he can discuss all he wants about how he thinks the child will grow up feeling confused and have a warp sense of family life and all that... and i'm saying thats a misperception... thats not really true for myself and others adoptees i know with gay parents...

[hapakristina]

of course he's entitled to his point of view...
but all i'm saying i'm talking about from EXPERIENCE...
growing up as an adoptee with a gay mother...

and like i said, he can discuss all he wants about how he thinks the child will grow up feeling confused and have a warp sense of family life and all that... and i'm saying thats a misperception... thats not really true for myself and others adoptees i know with gay parents...

i'm not agreeing with him, as my previous post in this forum indicated. i'm just saying that a lot of people have labeled him homophobic when i don't think any of his points about this matter has indicated that at all. some had asked him to not judge the GBLT community and my point was that if we're going to ask that of him, we shouldn't do the same. he has a different opinion than ours. that's fine, he's entitled to it. all we can do is simply argue why we feel differently.

i wasn't commenting on people defending their arguments, it was directed at people who had labeled him a homophobe when i don't think he's done or said anything to indicate such.

[>:^|]

This thread is starting to feel like flame-bait to me.
Arguments:
1. Personal experience
2. Experience of close friends
3. Research (see e.g., Patterson, Golombok, et al.)

v. don't stick your dick in me. :flame:

And two unrelated thoughts:

Sexual predators are nearly always men, and their victims are generally female.

I'm not denying that it's possible for children to be teased because of their parents. But that isn't a valid reason for denying gays or lesbians the right to parent.

[tapestrybabe]

i'm not agreeing with him, as my previous post in this forum indicated. i'm just saying that a lot of people have labeled him homophobic when i don't think any of his points about this matter has indicated that at all. some had asked him to not judge the GBLT community and my point was that if we're going to ask that of him, we shouldn't do the same. he has a different opinion than ours. that's fine, he's entitled to it. all we can do is simply argue why we feel differently.

i wasn't commenting on people defending their arguments, it was directed at people who had labeled him a homophobe when i don't think he's done or said anything to indicate such.
well...
i never labeled him as a homophobe...
but i'm just commenting on his statement of how he thinks gay parents adopting children will just confuse the kids and will end up having them have a warped view of life and family life... and yes, i am kinda judging and questioning his opinions... because i find his statements to be invalid... cuz of my own experiences and other ppl i know with gay parents...

if he's against gay couples adopting...
because he's concerned about the child...
why not speak to adoptees with gay parents
and ask them how they feel about it...

[hapakristina]

well...
i never labeled him as a homophobe...

my statements weren't directed at you. they were directed at those that did.



and yes, i am kinda judging and questioning his opinions... because i find his statements to be invalid... cuz of my own experiences and other ppl i know with gay parents...

that's the difference. you're arguing your points versus some have been attacking him as a person judging him and labeling him as a homophobe simply because he disagrees with this issue. if his reasons for disagreement were religious, would we start calling him homophobic as well? no, it'd be wrong. it'd be because homosexuality doesn't coincide with his religious beliefs. my point is simply that while i disagree with his view, people shouldn't start judging him because he feels differently. the whole idea of attacking the thinking and the idea, not the person concept.

[etcj]

my statements weren't directed at you. they were directed at those that did.


Well I guess you're obviously referring to me. I understand that "poisoning the well" to invalidate a person's argument is perhaps not too nice, but sometimes people have to admit to their own biases. Unfortunately, many people do not owe up to their own prejudices, particularly when it comes to big things like homophobia and racism. Of course, I don't think we have the next Hitler spawning on YW, but it's somewhat inexcusable for YW members to not admit to such shortcomings. Personally, I am not expecting people to drop their biases and discomforts, but the least that we can do is to admit what limits us. In particular, this forum is specifically designed to SUPPORT GBLT YW folks. When people intentionally use homophobic or heterosexist speech in this forum, I think it bears a certain level of responsibility among YW members to keep this forum safe. Does it mean we are suspending free-speech? Hell no...I perhaps exerted my 1st Amendment in calling folks homophobes. However, we have to remember the true purpose of this forum... it's not designed for folks to bash people. LL_Cool_D warned us that he was perhaps going to get flamed and so it happened...so maybe folks should use better judgment before posting comments, but hey, get ready for some flaming if you intentionally break of the community guidelines (http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=8613)which are posted for this forum.

Sorry to have to speak for Chris, but I really hate it when this forum stops being supportive and begins to be divisive.

Just to validate Tapestrybabe's previous posts, go chat with adoptees of gay and lesbian parents...there's nothing better to dispel stereotypes and assumptions than by checking with the source.

So here's a tip: If you don't wanna get flamed, then keep your mouth shut. The best thing to do is to pick your battles, as one YW member says. In this forum, please check out the guidelines (http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=8613) if you are in some way confused about why we have this forum. Sighh..

[kimpossible]

Well to be fair, all LL Cool D is doing is providing a counterpoint... he's not going nutty and personally attacking anyone, he's simply stating his opinion and unfortunately it is not supportive to the gay community. If he went on all out warfare and put downs without any opinion or argument I'd be all over his ass.

No one member has to accept any forum or any of our views. They can dissent, play devil's advocate, argue counterpoint or generally voice their opinion so long as it's debate and not pointless whining or flaming.

About homophobic, yeah LL, you fit the definition. It doesn't mean evil demonic monster, it means you fear homosexuality. You fear that it will warp, contaminate and destroy that which you hold dear or your way of life. At least that's what I'm reading going by your posts. Again, that's not to demonize you, merely pointing out that's what homophobia is. I for one am glad you're willing to talk about it openly and debate it with everyone without flaming.

I think this is a good discussion to have.

My $.02

[Chris]

yes, if fearing means being wary of homosexuals coming on to you ., ie, trying to touch you up and feel you or worse, trying to put their penises into you whilst bending over then yes call me a homophobe. and how many of other posters would admit to what i have just said? i bet you ALOT would state in the direction that i have just stated.


Again you are posting something without any basis of facts persented.

[kimpossible]

well thank you for the kind remarks but was this --


If he went on all out warfare and put downs without any opinion or argument I'd be all over his ass.
-- necessary?



I don't get it. Was what necessary? Would I love to put a Judge Judy style smackdown on you as a moderator for talking unnecessary shit and posting in a pointlessly belligerent manner? Of course. That shouldn't surprise you. I'm surprised that you'd be surprised by it. You're a big boy, I'm sure I can't be too scary.

Take it as a warning to not be too insulting and not reduce this whole issue to anal sex. Don't flatter yourself into thinking every gay guy in existence would line up for a chance to plug your butt. I think you're right in the idea that you're expressing homophobic feelings SOME may have, so it's good to debate the points, but make damn sure you want to debate and it doesn't fall under gay bashing. Let's assume you're smart and would love to apply some common sense to follow the posting guidelines. Right now I'm for your participation because you provide[d] a counterpoint. You can change that but I'd really like that to [I]not change.

This is getting off topic, if there was something else you didn't understand or you'd like some advice about staying on topic and actively in debate without deteriorating into just plain trolling, PM me. Otherwise, peace out.

edit: btw, there's a thread fireblade started about homophobia. covers a lot of territory - dunno if you want to check it out.

[kimpossible]

how do you know i'm a big boy instead of a big man? i'm surprised you've stated that without even knowing me, unless of course we HAVE met before? :laugh:


Again, not following you and not sure what this has to do with the topic. I'll try restating: posting within guidelines = good, please keep posting, I'll support your opinion even if it is not popular. Not posting within guidelines = bad, as a mod I will throw in my support for disciplinary actions. What's not understood?

There are some more posts by other Yellowworld members on the subject of homophobia in the thread started by Fireblade. It may be of interest to you because you thought (and until I read it, so did I) that you were the only one talking about homophobia.

Good day to you, I've said what I needed to say. No new info, don't feel like repeating myself endlessly.

[Fireblade]

I'm just stating an observation... this is not really what I think.

It might be because of those rape stories that go on in Prision shower rooms and all that. The funny thing is... the people who commit these rapes, claim they're not gay, because they aren't the ones receiving it. Only the ones who are raped are considered gay.

[shy]

I'm just stating an observation... this is not really what I think.

It might be because of those rape stories that go on in Prision shower rooms and all that. The funny thing is... the people who commit these rapes, claim they're not gay, because they aren't the ones receiving it. Only the ones who are raped are considered gay.

well, if that is a variable to why homophobic straight men think that way, then they should also realize that the numerous stories of women being raped by men should tell them to back-off with some of their aggressive approaches.

but yeah... from my understanding, the rapes that happen in male prison don't necessarily mean that the rapist is gay. doesn't it also have to do w/ control and power?

[Chris]

btw this thread will be split between gay adoptees and marriages.

[SunWuKong]

woah totally missed the majority of this thread. i'm glad Chris has it under control though.

so everybody, play nice to each other. i understand that some issues are very personal to certain people, but good dialogue is better achieved without emotionally charged words.

[shy]

wow... i missed this too!

LL_Cool_D,

i know you are totally in your rights to express your oppinion. but i do disagree with you here when it comes to your oppinion that same sexed couples should not adopt because it will probably screw up the kid who has been adopted.

i say this because i generally agree with my studies in family sociology that now a days, there isn't this necessary requirement of man and woman = father and mother to create a healthy environment for a child. in such studies, they have found out that a loving and supportive environment is the key way of raising a child successfully, stressing that it needn't be from a opposite-sexed coupling.

it's not so much what sex makes up the family but how the child is raised. will the child face some level of teasing? yes.. quite possibly. but why should that be the excuse for not allowing two people of the same sex adopt a child?

many children, regardless what their family is made of as face challenges all the time. to shelter children from the realities of the world is far greater a risk.

in all honesty, we do live in a pretty harsh world. but parents who raise the child properly will create a strong individual... and that doesn't mean that parents need to be of the opposite sex of one another.

what doesn't kill the child will only make them stronger. i honestly believe that.

anyway... i dont' know how much more i can express to you my stance of gay people adopting... i'm all for it.

and though i know we don't have many parents here to share their views, i'd be glad to share mine after january 29th, when my baby is due. :)

[Chris]

For the record. I have banned LL from posting in this forum. He had been given a warning before by me and now has been snipped for 72 hours for posting again in this forum. He won't be able to post in the GBLT forum unless he has my permission.

[hapakristina]

here's a discussion on another board that ensued about the same topic. it was really interesting, if anyone would like to read.. and it also gives my perspective of the matter.

click here (http://www.hapas.com/forum/default.asp?fid=1&action=view&topic=3138&curpage=1)

[tapestrybabe]

the basis of my argument has already been explained. being a kid and having to grow up with both parents of the same sex is difficult for a child. a child with both parents of the different sex has a difficult time as it is. think about the peer pressure surrounding adopted children. do you really want your son/daughter to be teased and bullied because of their parents?
Ppl can get bullied, teased due to their race and sexual orientation...

i mean,
do you really want your son/daughter being teased or bullied because their asian?? just like with white parents who adopt asian kids... they are encouraged to actually move into a more diverse environment/neighborhood... and i feel the same thing can apply to gay couples who decide to adopt... they should already be living in an environment where they are already out... and feel accepted by the community at large...

[tapestrybabe]

it's not so much what sex makes up the family but how the child is raised.
i think the sex of the parents is kinda important...
i mean, in my mind... i think i would prefer a gay male couple to actually be matched with adopting a boy than a girl... same thing with a gay female couple-- i think they would be better matched if they adopted a girl... i mean, i just think males and females play different roles... for instance... i think that a female couple would be better at raising an adopted daughter... when it comes to dealing with certain female issues and what not... especially during adolescence...

[shy]

i think the sex of the parents is kinda important...
i mean, in my mind... i think i would prefer a gay male couple to actually be matched with adopting a boy than a girl... same thing with a gay female couple-- i think they would be better matched if they adopted a girl... i mean, i just think males and females play different roles... for instance... i think that a female couple would be better at raising an adopted daughter... when it comes to dealing with certain female issues and what not... especially during adolescence...

honestly, i don't know about that... i understand what you mean, but i've been shown that in the end, it still doesn't matter. sure, it might be easier for a daughter to have a female role model, but i do think that when we're discussing this issue of whether same-sexed couples should be allowed to adopt, the general argument on my part is that sexual orientation should not matter. and that same sexed couples should have the right to adopt.

plus, when i said that the sex of the parents shouldn't matter, i was totally just talking about gay rights. ;)

[tapestrybabe]

honestly, i don't know about that... i understand what you mean, but i've been shown that in the end, it still doesn't matter. sure, it might be easier for a daughter to have a female role model, but i do think that when we're discussing this issue of whether same-sexed couples should be allowed to adopt, the general argument on my part is that sexual orientation should not matter.
i think it matters tho..
just like how i feel race/ethnicity plays an important issue to a transracial adoptee...
i think sex/gender can play an important role too... and should be taken into consideration...

[shy]

i think it matters tho..
just like how i feel race/ethnicity plays an important issue to a transracial adoptee...
i think sex/gender can play an important role too... and should be taken into consideration...

it does play a role... but to clarify, all i intended when i said that 'sex doesn't matter' was focused more really on the sexual orientation of the parents... not so much their sex/gender.

in other words, i wasn't thinking at the level you're at... just at the level this thread is about.

but to address what you are saying, i'll clarify myself here as well...

you're right. i should not down play the importance of the parents' sex/gender to that of the adopted child. but on a priority list of who should adopt who, i don't know if there should be a 'you can only adopt a girl because both of you are women' nor 'you can only adopt a son because both of you are male'.

i can see, though, where the agency might want to encourage same-sexed couples to be selective of the sex of their child, but i don't know if it's that important enough to make it a mandatory thing, where as my focus when replying to LL_Cool_D was to focus more on the fact that the two people should be screened more carefully as being able to be good parents, period.

please note that i'm not trying to start a debate with you as i know you are sensitive with this subject matter, but the above are my honest oppinions.

[tapestrybabe]

it does play a role... but to clarify, all i intended when i said that 'sex doesn't matter' was focused more really on the sexual orientation of the parents... not so much their sex/gender.

in other words, i wasn't thinking at the level you're at... just at the level this thread is about.
Okay,
since i'm the one that initally brought the issue at hand...
i'll still stand my ground and say...
race/ethnicity/sex/gender... all play an important role...

and i dont think one can ignore the issues of sex and gender
when your talking about gay couples adopting or even single parents adopting...

[shy]

Okay,
since i'm the one that initally brought the issue at hand...
i'll still stand my ground and say...
race/ethnicity/sex/gender... all play an important role...

and i dont think one can ignore the issues of sex and gender
when your talking about gay couples adopting or even single parents adopting...

out of curiosity... what do you think of single mom's who raise boys? or single dad's that raise girls? and to make it easier, lets just say that the other parent never stuck around to help raise the child (even w/ visitations and such).

there's a lot of children who grew up in that scenerio. it was more challenging, but those that i know of, grew up quite well adjusted.

like i said, i'm not downplaying gender roles because yes, both gender roles are important. but if you go by what you are saying, wouldn't that also mean that both gender roles are equally important?

maybe i grew up like my father more... i don't know. so i don't see why for me, it would have been that important if i did lack a female role model. not to say that my mom wasn't important, but who's to know what gender role the child will be more comfortable with when everyone is so uniquely different? while my mother tried her hardest to make me a dainty little girl... all i wanted to do was be tough like my dad. i was more into playing w/ cars then w/ dolls. :p

so are we in the right to assume that a child will follow his/her suppossed stereotypical, gender role that he/she's born into?

what about other key family members... would they be a good enough substitute for these children when it comes to gender roles? i guess what i mean is... to say that just because a child is a girl, and she's is being adopted by a same sexed couple, she should have mothers instead of fathers is more important, would be ignoring the fact that male rodel models are also very important in a girl's life. what i meanby this is... does it really matter, as long as other family members and good friends can step in and fill that spot as best as they can?

just some thoughts of mine... i know i think too much but i'm very interested in the subject of gender roles.