"homophobic"

[Fireblade]

Ok, before the flames start rising, lemme say this.

I am homophobic. I dunno why a lot of people assume that I hate gays when I say this, because I don't. I just have a fear about gay men in general. In this day and age, when people are so very pc (or un-pc), sometimes the terms we use are taken in the wrong way. The context of it rather. And I was raised in San Francisco, and have a few gay friends, but truth be told, if any of them started to hit on me, I'd freak out. It's like if I was a girl, and a fat ugly man started to hit on me. Same reaction. I'm not into it.

Well, I've stated this, and I just really want to know what you feel about this. Being homophobic isn't about hate. It's just a fear. :unsure:

[Chester]

Originally posted by Fireblade@May 28 2003, 02:53 PM
And I was raised in San Francisco, and have a few gay friends, but truth be told, if any of them started to hit on me, I'd freak out.
Why would you freak out? If someone started pawing me at random, I might freak out, but I wouldn't freak out just because someone started hitting on me -- guy or girl. And, frankly, if some strange girl walked up to me and started pawing me, I'd find that pretty fucking freaky too. Not necessarily unwelcome, but nonetheless freaky.

It's like if I was a girl, and a fat ugly man started to hit on me. Same reaction. I'm not into it.

That's your prerogative. But it's not like a girl being hit on by men she finds unattractive...not unless you think it's reasonable for her to "fear" all men the way you apparently fear all homosexuals.

Being homophobic isn't about hate. It's just a fear.

Nah -- it's about irrationality in the face of inexperience. I appreciate your trying to reason this out and can also appreciate the difference between someone who's uncomfortable around apparent homosexuals and someone who has some sick need to actively bash them.

But, in the end, there's not a huge amount of fundamental difference in logic. I mean, seriously...what do you "fear"? Are you afraid that you might like attention from a guy...or that, if you're seen with apparent homosexuals, your straight friends will think you're gay too? Are you afraid that you're going to be raped or that you'll suddenly feel a strong urge to decorate your room with Madonna posters?

[Fireblade]

But, in the end, there's not a huge amount of fundamental difference in logic. I mean, seriously...what do you "fear"? Are you afraid that you might like attention from a guy...or that, if you're seen with apparent homosexuals, your straight friends will think you're gay too? Are you afraid that you're going to be raped or that you'll suddenly feel a strong urge to decorate your room with Madonna posters?

I'm afraid of homosexuals... period. Nothing more, nothing less. It has nothing to do with what people will think of me, or if I'm suddenly going to turn gay or what not. Or even supposedly "acting" as one. What I am afraid of... is the unwanted attention of a gay man hitting on me. I'm repulsed by it. There is a difference.

As for my straight friends seeing me with my gay friends... umm... I don't think they really give a damn. Considering that a lot of them also have gay friends, it doesn't lead them to assumptions as such. All I'm stating, is that I don't want the attention.

And I can bring up another thing in my life, to warrant my fear of homosexuals, but until it's absolutely necessary, I won't bring it out.

[Chester]

Originally posted by Fireblade@May 28 2003, 03:33 PM
I'm afraid of homosexuals... period. Nothing more, nothing less. It has nothing to do with what people will think of me, or if I'm suddenly going to turn gay or what not. Or even supposedly "acting" as one. What I am afraid of... is the unwanted attention of a gay man hitting on me. I'm repulsed by it. There is a difference.
How is it that you can "fear" gays but be friends with them?

Are you "afraid" of women whose attention you don't want?

When you say "I'm repulsed by it," what's "it"? The gay men who hit on you or their act of hitting on you or both? How often do you get hit on by gay men?

[Fireblade]

Originally posted by Chester@May 28 2003, 04:53 PM
How is it that you can "fear" gays but be friends with them?

Are you "afraid" of women whose attention you don't want?

When you say "I'm repulsed by it," what's "it"? The gay men who hit on you or their act of hitting on you or both? How often do you get hit on by gay men?
Ok, maybe I'm not phrasing my words correctly...

I'm afraid of gays, in terms of any of them trying to touch me. There's a nasty childhood incident in there that commited to my memory of it. I'm ok with them if they're my friends, and they respect my space or what-not. However, (and this happened to...) if one of them touches me, I immediately freak out.

So in turn, I'm replused by a gay man's touch. That's what's "it". I'm a person who likes his space reserved to himself and no one else. Reminder: I am only trying to figure out everyone's opinion on this. Because constantly I say I'm afraid of gays, and automatically it's assumed that I hate them. I don't. I just don't really like to be touched by one.

And even though it sounds really bullshit and what-not, that's the truth.

[Faithless]

Are you looking for acceptance into your homophobia or a rational or a way out of it?

Depending on where you work, aside from the military, you are going to probably work with someone that is openly gay. What do you do then?

[Chris]

Originally posted by Fireblade@May 28 2003, 03:53 PM
Ok, before the flames start rising, lemme say this.

I am homophobic. I dunno why a lot of people assume that I hate gays when I say this, because I don't. I just have a fear about gay men in general. In this day and age, when people are so very pc (or un-pc), sometimes the terms we use are taken in the wrong way. The context of it rather. And I was raised in San Francisco, and have a few gay friends, but truth be told, if any of them started to hit on me, I'd freak out. It's like if I was a girl, and a fat ugly man started to hit on me. Same reaction. I'm not into it.

Well, I've stated this, and I just really want to know what you feel about this. Being homophobic isn't about hate. It's just a fear. :unsure:
Damn buddy:

this is really weird when I actually met you in person and hung out.

But then again I really respected you and everyone there.

[Adaon]

Originally posted by ChottoMatte@May 28 2003, 05:09 PM
Are you looking for acceptance into your homophobia or a rational or a way out of it?

Depending on where you work, aside from the military, you are going to probably work with someone that is openly gay. What do you do then?
I'm thinking Clint isn't trying so much to avoid any contact with people who are homosexual as so much to wish to be not approached after in a romantic/physical lusting manner by homosexual men. Honestly, I don't think that he can totally avoid it at times....I mean, there's nothing really stopping any guy who might find him attractive from going up to him and trying to ask him out and/or what not....part of the risk of meeting people/dealing with people you don't know, I suppose

[Napoleon Chynamite]

The reasons for homophobia could be enrooted in various places. I can only hope to scratch the surface and mention a few.... First and foremost, our society (laws and regulations founded by individuals who were very strongly influenced by Christianity) has always pointed a shameful finger at homosexuality. Despite the growing acceptance in recent years or the past decade, there is obviously still much progress to be made. Secondly, because most men are brought up and engrained with this idea of being gay as a taboo in their psyche, they not only naturally want to avoid the taboo'ness, they see homosexuality as a possibly threat to their need to exert or express their masculinity or macho'ness. Therefore, when gay men hit on them, they are not only afraid of the unfamiliarity or 'freakiness' of it all, but also are afraid, in a way, of their body or mind responding in a positive way, because that would strip them of their masculinity status as well as their status of being an 'acceptable' member of society.

I dun mean to single you out, Clint. I'm not saying I have you all figured out or that the reasons above hit you on the spot. Actually I share some of that fear too although I do think a lot of it depends on the extent of such feelings of discomfort. I'm sure a lotta people feel the same way, regardless of whether it is right or not, morality judgments aside.

and btw...

Chester: And, frankly, if some strange girl walked up to me and started pawing me, I'd find that pretty fucking freaky too. Not necessarily unwelcome, but nonetheless freaky.

ROFL :lol: :lol:

[Chester]

Originally posted by Fireblade@May 28 2003, 03:59 PM
So in turn, I'm replused by a gay man's touch. That's what's "it". I'm a person who likes his space reserved to himself and no one else. Reminder: I am only trying to figure out everyone's opinion on this. Because constantly I say I'm afraid of gays, and automatically it's assumed that I hate them. I don't. I just don't really like to be touched by one.

And even though it sounds really bullshit and what-not, that's the truth.
I don't think it sounds like bullshit. Like you said, I think you just didn't pick your words all that well.

I don't think not wanting to be touched by gay men makes you "afraid" of them. It just means you have a hang-up about that. Something you hopefully will deal with at some point, but not all that big of a deal in the larger scheme of things.

What about guys in general? I always find hyper-macho guys hilarious -- the ones who can only shake hands and can maybe deal with a "homey"-style hug. But anything beyond that and they go buggy as if another male's arm on their shoulder is going to awaken some latent desire to suck cock.

Weirdos...

[Fireblade]

Originally posted by Adaon@May 28 2003, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by ChottoMatte@May 28 2003, 05:09 PM
Are you looking for acceptance into your homophobia or a rational or a way out of it?

Depending on where you work, aside from the military, you are going to probably work with someone that is openly gay. What do you do then?
I'm thinking Clint isn't trying so much to avoid any contact with people who are homosexual as so much to wish to be not approached after in a romantic/physical lusting manner by homosexual men. Honestly, I don't think that he can totally avoid it at times....I mean, there's nothing really stopping any guy who might find him attractive from going up to him and trying to ask him out and/or what not....part of the risk of meeting people/dealing with people you don't know, I suppose
Exactly.

[Faithless]

Originally posted by Fireblade@May 28 2003, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by Adaon@May 28 2003, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by ChottoMatte@May 28 2003, 05:09 PM
Are you looking for acceptance into your homophobia or a rational or a way out of it?

Depending on where you work, aside from the military, you are going to probably work with someone that is openly gay. What do you do then?
I'm thinking Clint isn't trying so much to avoid any contact with people who are homosexual as so much to wish to be not approached after in a romantic/physical lusting manner by homosexual men. Honestly, I don't think that he can totally avoid it at times....I mean, there's nothing really stopping any guy who might find him attractive from going up to him and trying to ask him out and/or what not....part of the risk of meeting people/dealing with people you don't know, I suppose
Exactly.
OK, I suppose too. :rolleyes:

I know gay dudes, some from work, some politically, and it has never been in the back of my mind that I would be "turning them on".

But being the self assured male that I am, :gross: , if I were approached, I would just say "I am not interested in men." Hopefully, they would understand.

[Emperor_Mike]

Homophobia is such a waste of time. People are people are people and homosexuals are no different. So why be afraid and fly off the handle when a gay guy or a lesbian hits on you? If it doesn't cater to your particular interests, smile nicely and say, "I'm sorry, but that's not my kind of thing" or something along similar lines. No need to become dramatic over nothing, that's my philosophy.

Of course, if they get aggressive and stalker-ish then you need to do the right thing and call the police or report them. Stalkers are stalkers regardless of sexual orientation. The point I'm trying to make it, no one should feel threatened because of another person's preferences.

[deez nuts]

it's all good, fireblade.

it is afterall you're own personal space and yours only.

so long you're not out there gay bashing and beating up on gay people. i don't see why you're so worried about it.

from my personal experience: gay guys are really clingy. you have to establish your boundary early. don't worry about hurting their feelings. you respect their boundary. they should do the same for you. my ex knew a lot of them since she worked in the fashion industry.

and another incident at a club when i was there with my ex-gf. this one gay guy kept approaching me. at first i politely said: "i'm flattered, but i'm not gay and i'm here with my gf. she's right over there." the fella kept approaching me like 3-4 times after that. the final time i just got fed up and said: "listen bud, i don't suck cock. so fuck off."

another thing i've noticed with the gay guys around me is that they mention quite often about bagging a heterosexual man. something like a trophy for them. i laughed my ass off the first time i heard it, when they were over my old apartment working on a project with my ex.

it's a different lifestyle. you don't gotta embrace it i.e. be best friends with gay people. just respect it and realize it's their own personal lifestyle. if a gay guy hits on you and it's making you uncomfortable. just tell him straight up that it's making you uncomfortable and you would appreciate it if he backs off. don't worry about hurting his feelings.

[Tao]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@May 29 2003, 09:00 AM
 another thing i've noticed with the gay guys around me is that they mention quite often about bagging a heterosexual man. something like a trophy for them. i laughed my ass off the first time i heard it, when they were over my old apartment working on a project with my ex. it's a different lifestyle.
you're not exactly comforting him dr.bun<IMG src="http://forums.yellowworld.org/html/emoticons/tongue.gif">

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by Tao@May 29 2003, 08:33 AM
you're not exactly comforting him dr.bun<IMG src="http://forums.yellowworld.org/html/emoticons/tongue.gif">
oh yeah my bad, young dr. tao.

[cmar]

To fear all homosexuals because of the actions of one, and to proudly proclaim to be homophobic is not a healthy or acceptable attitude.

I am a gay man who has had aggressive, unwanted sexual attention from a woman, but this hasn't turned me into a misogynist. There is something else going on here. There's more to the story.

Someone with an irrational fear needs therapy.

[Fireblade]

Originally posted by cmar@May 29 2003, 09:46 AM
To fear all homosexuals because of the actions of one, and to proudly proclaim to be homophobic is not a healthy or acceptable attitude.

I am a gay man who has had aggressive, unwanted sexual attention from a woman, but this hasn't turned me into a misogynist. There is something else going on here. There's more to the story.

Someone with an irrational fear needs therapy.
PMsed you. You now know my reason.

As for everyone else... I opened this topic up, because I wanted to know why it's not accepted (homophobia), and what views you have on the subject.

Oh well, I brought myself into this one.

Fire away.

[Faithless]

Originally posted by cmar@May 29 2003, 08:46 AM
I am a gay man who has had aggressive, unwanted sexual attention from a woman, but this hasn't turned me into a misogynist.
But did you at least say, "Ick!" :rolleyes:

Seriously, there is that side too.

And I'm sure you wouldn't approach someone like FireBlade unless you felt there was something there.

[sOKaLiBoY]

i have no problem with gay ppl as long as they keep it to themselves. a gay guy is cool until he tries to hit on you

[deez nuts]

it's a basic premise:

respect my personal space and i'll respect yours.

i don't care if i get hit on the first time by a gay guy. i don't even care about the second time. i'm not gonna diss another guy in his quest to get laid or taking a chance and trying. i don't care if the guy is looking for a male or female

but, if the guy persists and makes me feel uncomfortable then i'll tell him to fuck off. plain and simple.

[ChinaLama]

I think the basic argument goes like this?

A: homophobia is just that-- a phobia, a fear, not a hatred.
B: but some fears are socially harmful, so they should be overcome as best as possible. For instance, if someone had a fear of whites, he wouldn't be able to function too well in a white-majority society.

[Faithless]

Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@May 30 2003, 04:34 AM
it's a basic premise:

respect my personal space and i'll respect yours.

That should go for everyone, not just gays -- even cute chicks who might be up in yo bidness.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@May 30 2003, 06:23 AM
A: homophobia is just that-- a phobia, a fear, not a hatred.
B: but some fears are socially harmful, so they should be overcome as best as possible. For instance, if someone had a fear of whites, he wouldn't be able to function too well in a white-majority society.
Bingo.

In fact I think a discussion or even debate about the merits of the usage of homophobia is nothing more than semantics. It's a political term that's been adopted by the gay community to try and keep hysteria in check, nothing more than a tool, like right-wing conservative or feminist. I tend to think the stakes are a little higher in this case because there are so many idiots out there who let their fear turn to hatred.

Regarding Fireblade's honest post...I would agree with bunboy by saying tolerance is the bare minimum we can hope for in a civilized society...and I'm not saying you think and act in a fashion acceptable to gays around you, but why fear? I don't mean to criticize your personal views or beliefs, but since you were kind enough to put them on display for all of us (heh) -- as a young, strong, Asian heterosexual male, is there anything you should really be afraid of?

[Chester]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@May 30 2003, 02:26 PM
Regarding Fireblade's honest post...I would agree with bunboy by saying tolerance is the bare minimum we can hope for in a civilized society...
And to delve even further into the issue of semantics, I don't even like the words "tolerance" or "acceptance," as it still casts a negative light on things...one tolerates or accepts things that are at least mildly negative or at least odd.

Instead of "tolerating" gay people, I'd prefer that people just say "not be an asshole toward" gay people. To me, "tolerance/acceptance" in this context isn't tolerance/acceptance...it's "non-assholishness." That is, you're not doing anyone a favor by being tolerant/accepting of homosexuals -- you're doing the bare minimum that should be required of a human being.

Of course this is all semantics, but sometimes I think semantics are important, such as with regard to that other thread about the use of the word "gay" as a universal pejorative.

as a young, strong, Asian heterosexual male, is there anything you should really be afraid of?

Yeah -- homicidal clowns and Shanghainese women!

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by Chester@May 30 2003, 03:56 PM
And to delve even further into the issue of semantics, I don't even like the words "tolerance" or "acceptance," as it still casts a negative light on things...one tolerates or accepts things that are at least mildly negative or at least odd.

There's been some discussion about the name of this forum ("Acceptance") and the condescending veneer the name seems to imply. Personally, I still think it's important to have to spell out basic principles sometimes ("don't hate on gays"), particularly in certain pro-Asian circles, in which a lot of the men, out of exasperation from the anti-Asian male pummeling they get from our mainstream media, sometimes turn on gay Asians because of the association they perceive that Hollywood promotes (at least that's my theory).

I know in some parts of the proverbial "deep south" of Ktown, the basic idea of gay acceptance in unquestionably opposed.

Originally posted by Chester@May 30 2003, 03:56 PM
Yeah -- homicidal clowns and Shanghainese women!

I meant human things.

[Fireblade]

Originally posted by ChinaLama@May 30 2003, 06:23 AM
I think the basic argument goes like this?

A: homophobia is just that-- a phobia, a fear, not a hatred.
B: but some fears are socially harmful, so they should be overcome as best as possible. For instance, if someone had a fear of whites, he wouldn't be able to function too well in a white-majority society.
Thank you. I wanted to point this out, but I figured that instead of putting out myself, I wanted people in this thread to discuss it. I am in both the A&B categories, but I try my best not to let it control me. However, since this is in acceptance, how do approach the issue? Some people are always going to question you, and maybe try to exploit that fact that you have a fear. This is probably a primary reason why I put myself out there.

I don't mean to criticize your personal views or beliefs, but since you were kind enough to put them on display for all of us (heh) -- as a young, strong, Asian heterosexual male, is there anything you should really be afraid of?

That in real life, discussion like this would not happen. Opinions flare up, and you aren't given the time, or respect to analyze and confront the issue. Forums, don't take place of immediate interaction with others. You are given time to formulate your answers, and therefore have a clearer mind to express what you feel inside. If I were to do this with others, this is not the case.

[achtungbaby]

Originally posted by Fireblade@May 30 2003, 06:48 PM
That in real life, discussion like this would not happen. Opinions flare up, and you aren't given the time, or respect to analyze and confront the issue. Forums, don't take place of immediate interaction with others. You are given time to formulate your answers, and therefore have a clearer mind to express what you feel inside. If I were to do this with others, this is not the case.
Which is what makes YW the greatest place on earth:)

But my question was directed more specifically towards your "fear" of gays. You made the analogy of the fear a girl feels when being hit on by a fat, older guy -- do you think this is a fair analogy though? Not to demean the helplessness that some of the girls on this board have felt when approached by some persistent nasty guy, but would you really feel helpless?

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by ChottoMatte@May 30 2003, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Chasiubao_Boy@May 30 2003, 04:34 AM
it's a basic premise:

respect my personal space and i'll respect yours.

That should go for everyone, not just gays -- even cute chicks who might be up in yo bidness.
yeah it does, but come on a cute chick! that's hard.

i have told broke ass busted chicks to fuck off if i wasn't in the mood for them, also.

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Fireblade@May 28 2003, 06:53 PM
Ok, before the flames start rising, lemme say this.

I am homophobic. I dunno why a lot of people assume that I hate gays when I say this, because I don't. I just have a fear about gay men in general. In this day and age, when people are so very pc (or un-pc), sometimes the terms we use are taken in the wrong way. The context of it rather. And I was raised in San Francisco, and have a few gay friends, but truth be told, if any of them started to hit on me, I'd freak out. It's like if I was a girl, and a fat ugly man started to hit on me. Same reaction. I'm not into it.

Well, I've stated this, and I just really want to know what you feel about this. Being homophobic isn't about hate. It's just a fear. :unsure:
but dude, no offense, you must think highly of yourself if you think that gay guys would hit on you. :lol:

hell, i'd be flattered as hell if that happened.

but i understand what you mean about personal space. this bi guy i knew in college that was known to sleep around quite a lot kept clinging on to my arm during this movie we were watching once. it was unwanted attention. sort of the same thing as if it was from a girl that i'm not attracted to at all.

[Fireblade]

Originally posted by achtungbaby@May 31 2003, 04:20 PM
Which is what makes YW the greatest place on earth:)

But my question was directed more specifically towards your "fear" of gays. You made the analogy of the fear a girl feels when being hit on by a fat, older guy -- do you think this is a fair analogy though? Not to demean the helplessness that some of the girls on this board have felt when approached by some persistent nasty guy, but would you really feel helpless?
I was in a situation where I was helpless. So umm... it's not a very correct analogy, but the closet one that people can imagine. I guess nowadays I wouldn't feel helpless, but yet you still can't help but feel the way you do.

but dude, no offense, you must think highly of yourself if you think that gay guys would hit on you.&nbsp;

hell, i'd be flattered as hell if that happened.

Believe me, it sounds cool, but it isn't. It doesn't happen all the time, but when I used to work till like midnight, and go back home on the streetcar back in frisco, there was an occasional NON-respectful gay guy who'd ask me what time it was and sit next to me and make me feel WAAAY uncomfortable. One tried to follow me back home, that scared me shitless. The way I avoided it, was get off the bus and grab another train that went back around. And you could tell he was gay, mannerisms or what-not...

And I don't really think that highly of myself to tell you the truth. Shit.. I still think I'm ugly as sin, but I guess people are attracted to evil. :HH:

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Fireblade@Jun 1 2003, 03:45 PM
Believe me, it sounds cool, but it isn't. It doesn't happen all the time, but when I used to work till like midnight, and go back home on the streetcar back in frisco, there was an occasional NON-respectful gay guy who'd ask me what time it was and sit next to me and make me feel WAAAY uncomfortable. One tried to follow me back home, that scared me shitless. The way I avoided it, was get off the bus and grab another train that went back around. And you could tell he was gay, mannerisms or what-not...

And I don't really think that highly of myself to tell you the truth. Shit.. I still think I'm ugly as sin, but I guess people are attracted to evil. :HH:
ok, well, following you back home is fucked up. but other than that, what else did those other gay guys do to make you feel uncomfortable other than sitting next to you?

[Fireblade]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jun 1 2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Fireblade@Jun 1 2003, 03:45 PM
Believe me, it sounds cool, but it isn't. It doesn't happen all the time, but when I used to work till like midnight, and go back home on the streetcar back in frisco, there was an occasional NON-respectful gay guy who'd ask me what time it was and sit next to me and make me feel WAAAY uncomfortable. One tried to follow me back home, that scared me shitless. The way I avoided it, was get off the bus and grab another train that went back around. And you could tell he was gay, mannerisms or what-not...

And I don't really think that highly of myself to tell you the truth. Shit.. I still think I'm ugly as sin, but I guess people are attracted to evil.&nbsp; :HH:
ok, well, following you back home is fucked up. but other than that, what else did those other gay guys do to make you feel uncomfortable other than sitting next to you?
Basically it was just an invasion of privacy and space. Aside from that, I'm usually very chill about it.

[shy]

Originally posted by sOKaLiBoY@May 29 2003, 11:51 AM
i have no problem with gay ppl as long as they keep it to themselves. a gay guy is cool until he tries to hit on you
haha! omg...
dude... i think that seriously all depends on the other guys we're talking about!
if a gay guy did hit on you, making a mistake or taking the chance on your true sexual orientation (mistakes can happen), i would not rationalize that as soon as he hits on you, he's just SO NOT cool anymore...

sorry, but that's a very immature view and thing to say.

[shy]

fireblade, it's refreshing to hear some honesty really... i'm one that tries to help others change their homophobic views because really, i would love to see a world w/out it. but i'm also understanding that people fear what they truely do not understand.

and i think also in your case, you had a childhood trauma that's definitely made an impact on you. i sort of see that as a bit different. because everyone that i've known who's had some sort of traumatic experience, sexually, as a child, has had some impact and challenge to overcome in their life.

not to justify your homophobia, but i actually believe that you have a more logical reason to your fear then others who are just... homophobic. just try not to let you past make you always be a victim to your own fears... you know?

i do hope you can overcome it. so that if by any chance a guy tries to pick you up, you can react just by calmly telling them that you're not gay and aren't interested. really... that's the best way to handle it because most gay guys i know, would respect that honesty.

for me, i've been on the other side where when i open myself up to women, telling them i am bisexual (not hitting on them, but actually trusting that i can tell them as a friend), i've had a couple get really weirded out.

and at that moment, they say right back to me... "well, as long as you don't try anything one me!" sort of made me... well, completely fucking pissed off! at least at that moment... usually, when the anger resides, i laugh it off.

the last time a woman said that to me, i said right back to her, "don't worry.... you're not my type."

and she looked really hurt and offended! like... what the fuck?

[Chris]

Originally posted by sOKaLiBoY@May 29 2003, 12:51 PM
i have no problem with gay ppl as long as they keep it to themselves. a gay guy is cool until he tries to hit on you
just be glad they think you are cute enough that they hit on. Just take it as a compliment and tell them you're straight. It not that hard right?

[SunWuKong]

Originally posted by Fireblade@Jun 2 2003, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jun 1 2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Fireblade@Jun 1 2003, 03:45 PM
Believe me, it sounds cool, but it isn't. It doesn't happen all the time, but when I used to work till like midnight, and go back home on the streetcar back in frisco, there was an occasional NON-respectful gay guy who'd ask me what time it was and sit next to me and make me feel WAAAY uncomfortable. One tried to follow me back home, that scared me shitless. The way I avoided it, was get off the bus and grab another train that went back around. And you could tell he was gay, mannerisms or what-not...

And I don't really think that highly of myself to tell you the truth. Shit.. I still think I'm ugly as sin, but I guess people are attracted to evil. :HH:
ok, well, following you back home is fucked up. but other than that, what else did those other gay guys do to make you feel uncomfortable other than sitting next to you?
Basically it was just an invasion of privacy and space. Aside from that, I'm usually very chill about it.
do they sit next to you and then start touching you?

[shy]

Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jun 2 2003, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Fireblade@Jun 2 2003, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by SunWuKung@Jun 1 2003, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by Fireblade@Jun 1 2003, 03:45 PM
Believe me, it sounds cool, but it isn't. It doesn't happen all the time, but when I used to work till like midnight, and go back home on the streetcar back in frisco, there was an occasional NON-respectful gay guy who'd ask me what time it was and sit next to me and make me feel WAAAY uncomfortable. One tried to follow me back home, that scared me shitless. The way I avoided it, was get off the bus and grab another train that went back around. And you could tell he was gay, mannerisms or what-not...

And I don't really think that highly of myself to tell you the truth. Shit.. I still think I'm ugly as sin, but I guess people are attracted to evil. :HH:
ok, well, following you back home is fucked up. but other than that, what else did those other gay guys do to make you feel uncomfortable other than sitting next to you?
Basically it was just an invasion of privacy and space. Aside from that, I'm usually very chill about it.
do they sit next to you and then start touching you?
i don't think one needs to be touching me on a subway/bus ride home for me to freak out...

i think it's weird anytime the bus is nearly empty, and there are a dozen empty seats around me, and some guy OR girl sits RIGHT NEXT to me...

like... wtf??? :huh:

since fireblade mentioned this occasions to be really late at night, i would assume the bus he was one was also more then half empty.

it's like when dudes take a pee at the urinals... it's just not right to pick one right next to some one else when there's all these other empty urinals there.

buffer zone, man! it's all about buffer zones!!! :P

[Fireblade]

Originally posted by shy@Jun 2 2003, 10:51 AM
i think it's weird anytime the bus is nearly empty, and there are a dozen empty seats around me, and some guy OR girl sits RIGHT NEXT to me...

like... wtf??? :huh:

since fireblade mentioned this occasions to be really late at night, i would assume the bus he was one was also more then half empty.

it's like when dudes take a pee at the urinals... it's just not right to pick one right next to some one else when there's all these other empty urinals there.

buffer zone, man! it's all about buffer zones!!! :P
Sometimes I was the ONLY one left on the bus. And it's just plain frickin' weird when ppl sit RIGHT next to you after a tired day's of work. And they seem to know to, because they think if they smile, you'll appreciate it.

Umm.. no.

I just wanna sleep. Usually I sleep on the bus, but never after 12 at night.

Had some dood sit right next to and like totally lean over me, and shit, and I woke up, cuz his weight was on my shoulder. Basically I went "WTF?!!!" and he looked suprised, and I got up and sat up in the seat next to the driver. Had that happen to me twice. <_<

[shy]

Originally posted by Fireblade@Jun 2 2003, 10:59 AM
Had some dood sit right next to and like totally lean over me, and shit, and I woke up, cuz his weight was on my shoulder. Basically I went "WTF?!!!" and he looked suprised, and I got up and sat up in the seat next to the driver. Had that happen to me twice. <_<
i don't think you ran into normal people. whether they were gay or not. you've run into some bad luck of getting on the bus w/ freaks! or people who are on something. :blink:

[deez nuts]

Originally posted by Fireblade@Jun 2 2003, 01:59 PM


Had some dood sit right next to and like totally lean over me, and shit, and I woke up, cuz his weight was on my shoulder. Basically I went "WTF?!!!" and he looked suprised, and I got up and sat up in the seat next to the driver. Had that happen to me twice. <_<
you handled it well. i would've pounded and kicked his face in.

[blue hoodie]

Originally posted by sOKaLiBoY@May 29 2003, 11:51 AM
i have no problem with gay ppl as long as they keep it to themselves. a gay guy is cool until he tries to hit on you
As long as he's not ramming you up the ass, I don't see wats so terribly wrong and horrible with a gay guy hitting on you. In fact, you should take it as a huge compliment if it ever happens to you cuz it just shows that you have the ability to attract both sexes.

The few times that a gay guy has actually hit on me were actually really funny. I was at this club with a couple of friends, when this guy came up to me. He starts talking to me n stuff asking me things like wat kind of clothes I like to shop for (I said hoodies), while my two friends behind him were laughing their asses off at me. Then after a while he says to me....."you're not gay, huh?" and I said..."no I'm not gay, sorry man". And he just says..."thats ok, you take care now" and went away.

Afterwards, my friends and I got up to dance and I noticed that the same guy was staring at me. Then he comes up to me again and says...."Honey, now I know you're not gay cuz you've got the rhythm of a straight man." :lol:

Another time at a club, a guy actually came up to me without saying anything, grabbed me, and then proceeded to twirl me!!! He actually twirled me! I've never been twirled in my life! I was so in shock from being twirled that I didn't know wat to say or do so I just danced away. :ph34r:

[shy]

Originally posted by blue hoodie@Jun 2 2003, 05:04 PM
Then after a while he says to me....."you're not gay, huh?" and I said..."no I'm not gay, sorry man". And he just says..."thats ok, you take care now" and went away.

Afterwards, my friends and I got up to dance and I noticed that the same guy was staring at me. Then he comes up to me again and says...."Honey, now I know you're not gay cuz you've got the rhythm of a straight man." :lol:

that is too funny! :lol:

oh... not that you can't dance... i mean, that he was able to joke about it. um... yeah...

[Chris]

Originally posted by blue hoodie@Jun 2 2003, 06:04 PM
As long as he's not ramming you up the ass, I don't see wats so terribly wrong and horrible with a gay guy hitting on you. In fact, you should take it as a huge compliment if it ever happens to you cuz it just shows that you have the ability to attract both sexes.

The few times that a gay guy has actually hit on me were actually really funny. I was at this club with a couple of friends, when this guy came up to me. He starts talking to me n stuff asking me things like wat kind of clothes I like to shop for (I said hoodies), while my two friends behind him were laughing their asses off at me. Then after a while he says to me....."you're not gay, huh?" and I said..."no I'm not gay, sorry man". And he just says..."thats ok, you take care now" and went away.

Afterwards, my friends and I got up to dance and I noticed that the same guy was staring at me. Then he comes up to me again and says...."Honey, now I know you're not gay cuz you've got the rhythm of a straight man." :lol:

Another time at a club, a guy actually came up to me without saying anything, grabbed me, and then proceeded to twirl me!!! He actually twirled me! I've never been twirled in my life! I was so in shock from being twirled that I didn't know wat to say or do so I just danced away. :ph34r:
hhah that was funny.

hehe I think I am your only gay guy that hits on you consistently :P

[blue hoodie]

Originally posted by Chris@Jun 2 2003, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by blue hoodie@Jun 2 2003, 06:04 PM
As long as he's not ramming you up the ass, I don't see wats so terribly wrong and horrible with a gay guy hitting on you. In fact, you should take it as a huge compliment if it ever happens to you cuz it just shows that you have the ability to attract both sexes.

The few times that a gay guy has actually hit on me were actually really funny. I was at this club with a couple of friends, when this guy came up to me. He starts talking to me n stuff asking me things like wat kind of clothes I like to shop for (I said hoodies), while my two friends behind him were laughing their asses off at me. Then after a while he says to me....."you're not gay, huh?" and I said..."no I'm not gay, sorry man". And he just says..."thats ok, you take care now" and went away.

Afterwards, my friends and I got up to dance and I noticed that the same&nbsp; guy was staring at me. Then he comes up to me again and says...."Honey, now I know you're not gay cuz you've got the rhythm of a straight man."&nbsp; :lol:

Another time at a club, a guy actually came up to me without saying anything, grabbed me, and then proceeded to twirl me!!! He actually twirled me! I've never been twirled in my life! I was so in shock from being twirled that I didn't know wat to say or do so I just danced away.&nbsp; :ph34r:
hhah that was funny.

hehe I think I am your only gay guy that hits on you consistently :P
If I was gay, I would so hit on Chris. :)

[moschikat]

Originally posted by blue hoodie@Jun 2 2003, 11:40 PM

If I was gay, I would so hit on Chris. :)
BACK OFF!
He's MINE!
Chris + Jackie = :luv:

:lol:

[blue hoodie]

Originally posted by moschikat@Jun 2 2003, 11:43 PM
Originally posted by blue hoodie@Jun 2 2003, 11:40 PM

If I was gay, I would so hit on Chris.&nbsp; :)
BACK OFF!
He's MINE!
Chris + Jackie = :luv:

:lol:
HE'S MINE BITCH!!!

(thats if I was gay).

[moschikat]

Originally posted by blue hoodie@Jun 2 2003, 11:44 PM

HE'S MINE BITCH!!!

(thats if I was gay).
*bitch-slaps Ted*

For what its worth, (and since i go both ways) - I don't think I've ever felt fear of a homosexual woman.

Well, except this one homosexual woman who was hitting on a friend of mine. She got pretty drunk, and got upset my friend was flirting with another guy.
Pulled out a gun and threatened to kill us all.

But gay men?

Oh honey! Lord knows gay men are a straight girl's best friend! :P

[Chris]

Originally posted by moschikat@Jun 3 2003, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by blue hoodie@Jun 2 2003, 11:44 PM

HE'S MINE BITCH!!!

(thats if I was gay).
*bitch-slaps Ted*

For what its worth, (and since i go both ways) - I don't think I've ever felt fear of a homosexual woman.

Well, except this one homosexual woman who was hitting on a friend of mine. She got pretty drunk, and got upset my friend was flirting with another guy.
Pulled out a gun and threatened to kill us all.

But gay men?

Oh honey! Lord knows gay men are a straight girl's best friend! :P
now now there is plenty of Chris Lovin to go around with both of you. Menage it jsut for kicks? :lol: :luv:

[purezero]

Originally posted by Fireblade@Jun 1 2003, 12:45 PM
And you could tell he was gay, mannerisms or what-not...
I don't know about that. I know guys who I thought were gay, but it turned out that they were straight. I think the only way you can know is if they tell you.

Another time at a club, a guy actually came up to me without saying anything, grabbed me, and then proceeded to twirl me!!! He actually twirled me! I've never been twirled in my life! I was so in shock from being twirled that I didn't know wat to say or do so I just danced away.

Haha. Being twirled out of no where in general is surprising.

[kitty]

I dunno if this thread exists already but --

out of the gay marriage thread came sort of a discussion on the word 'homophobic'... i was wondering what y'all thought about what that means, and who is and who isn't homophobic. I think that it means someone who is afraid of or who hates the gay community because of preexisting views of homosexuals that threaten their own sense of sexuality. for example, if you hate the LGBTQ community because you think that a gay man will sexually assault you or you are disgusted by anal sex between men.

but, i think that different people define this word differently. i was curious what you guys think.

[kimpossible]

What I wonder is why is it if you're NOT anti-gay and have a very firm policy of acceptance (I hate saying even that - really I don't even see a difference so therefore how could I 'accept') that somehow you get this label of superliberal? Why can't a conservative support gay rights?

[kitty]

I'm not sure... I think you can be a conservative and support gay rights -- i think that most christian conservatives do not and since christian conservatives dominate (at least vocally) the conservative outlook, people think conservatives don't support the gay community. I think if you're dealing with invididual conservatives, you can't just automatically assume they toe the party line when it comes to gay rights.

[hapakristina]

well, homophobic would imply that it's a phobia. thus being a fear of homosexual people. this "fear" usually resulting from ignorance about such a sexual preference or fear of handling members of the same sex hitting on them.

hate crimes towards gays may be caused by homophobic individuals, but some hate crimes may be caused by individuals that are just blatantly against the idea of homosexuality because of a lack of respect for people's personal choices. i don't think that anyone that's anti-homosexual is necessarily homophobic.

[Danny]

I'm not sure... I think you can be a conservative and support gay rights -- i think that most christian conservatives do not and since christian conservatives dominate (at least vocally) the conservative outlook, people think conservatives don't support the gay community. I think if you're dealing with invididual conservatives, you can't just automatically assume they toe the party line when it comes to gay rights.

Yeah, it was nice to see that you did differentiate between conservatives and the christian conservatives. There are two groups. Much like there are two groups within the homosexual community. There is the majority group, which are just like normal human beings, the only thing different about them is that they love the same sex. The minority group of homosexuals, the most vocal and the most visible. The dykes hanging from street poles with their junk hanging out. The bukers with the assless chaps and dog collars. The Cross dressing lounge singers. This is what makes people get turned off by this community. Why would you want to be supportive of a lifestyle that is just so obviously different and 'alien' to yours. Yet, it is this small group that becomes the voice for the gay and lesbian community. Just like the religious conservatives are the voice of the conservatives, but are in no way the majority of the conservatives.

Your question in regards to homophobia is more akin to what is your definition of racism, becuase they should be very alike.

[kimpossible]

Yeah, it was nice to see that you did differentiate between conservatives and the christian conservatives. There are two groups. Much like there are two groups within the homosexual community. There is the majority group, which are just like normal human beings, the only thing different about them is that they love the same sex. The minority group of homosexuals, the most vocal and the most visible. The dykes hanging from street poles with their junk hanging out. The bukers with the assless chaps and dog collars. The Cross dressing lounge singers. This is what makes people get turned off by this community. Why would you want to be supportive of a lifestyle that is just so obviously different and 'alien' to yours. Yet, it is this small group that becomes the voice for the gay and lesbian community.


Oh. Well I'm personally not bothered or shocked at Pride parades, dyke marches, trannies, etc. but there's a funny Onion article about what you mention. You'd have to hate a lot of classical theater (Japanese, Greek, Shakespearian) if you disapprove of men performing as women.

I've never taken Pride to represent the whole community but more of a Let's Get Crazy celebration like a Brazilian Carnivale or a German Love Parade.

[Fireblade]

There was a thread about this. Ironically I started it too.

http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=7452&page=1&pp=15&highlight=homophobia

[hapakristina]

there was an assembly at my school about how homophobia is a very unchristian practice so ironically, while many christians refute and throw judgment towards the "unchristian" lifestyle of a homosexual person.. they are in fact being unchristian in their actions as well.

[kimpossible]

There was a thread about this. Ironically I started it too.

http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=7452&page=1&pp=15&highlight=homophobia

can someone merge?

[Chris]

I merge the topic.

[kitty]

thanks... sorry i didn't do a search first.

[kitty]

LL... I just watched the Laramie Project about the Matthew Shepperd (sp?) case. You might want to take a look at it. It brings up some interesting points about whether or not a straight man is justified in beating up a gay man because he makes a pass at him -- especially as a legal defense. Since, how can you prove that?

[Danny]

Oh. Well I'm personally not bothered or shocked at Pride parades, dyke marches, trannies, etc. but there's a funny Onion article about what you mention. You'd have to hate a lot of classical theater (Japanese, Greek, Shakespearian) if you disapprove of men performing as women.

I've never taken Pride to represent the whole community but more of a Let's Get Crazy celebration like a Brazilian Carnivale or a German Love Parade.

You may not think that... but when billy joe in Nebraska who does not have any kind of interaction with homosexuals sees this on his television, this is his impression of the lot of the homosexual population.

If homosexuals want equal treatment under the law and want to be treated as citizens as opposed to second class citizens, the people that they need to sway are the people that have no interaction with homosexuals... Right now, the only thing they see are gay pride parades and the flamboyant homosexuals strewn across their screen.

[kitty]

You may not think that... but when billy joe in Nebraska who does not have any kind of interaction with homosexuals sees this on his television, this is his impression of the lot of the homosexual population.

If homosexuals want equal treatment under the law and want to be treated as citizens as opposed to second class citizens, the people that they need to sway are the people that have no interaction with homosexuals... Right now, the only thing they see are gay pride parades and the flamboyant homosexuals strewn across their screen.

are you saying that they should end pride parades (or at least flamboyant ones) in order to to sway the Nebraska-esque population? I mean, the whole point of pride, is to take pride in being who you are, without hiding or lying about yourself for the sake of other people...

[AngryABCGirl]

are you saying that they should end pride parades (or at least flamboyant ones) in order to to sway the Nebraska-esque population? I mean, the whole point of pride, is to take pride in being who you are, without hiding or lying about yourself for the sake of other people...

I think what he means is that people need to be exposed to gay people just as other normal people and not so objectified as a freak show- which is what I think its happening now in the popular media.

[kimpossible]

You may not think that... but when billy joe in Nebraska who does not have any kind of interaction with homosexuals sees this on his television, this is his impression of the lot of the homosexual population.



*nods* Point taken.

[Danny]

I think what he means is that people need to be exposed to gay people just as other normal people and not so objectified as a freak show- which is what I think its happening now in the popular media.

Exactly.

You can have a gay pride parade, just like you can have an Irish pride parade and the like. But the homosexual community must understand that if their gay pride parade is basically hijacked by the minority of gays, that are incredibly flamboyant, they should know that these pictures are going to be strewn across the airwaves.

To beat homophobia, you must show that the people within the gay community are no different than anyone else. When you show that they are not, by these acts of perversion to most people, why would they give a flying jack off about the homosexual community? Yes, they are people, but do you think they see real people wandering around with their dog collars on, wearing assless chaps and 6 foot tall flaming red afro wigs?

I know many homosexuals that are just like me, normal every day people, but they enjoy being with the same sex. They are accountants, they are writers, math teachers, that dress like every day human beings. That is who they are.

If the leather clad dog collar, assless chaps man is who he thinks he is. He should take pride in that. But he should also understand that in the vast spectrum of things, he is harming his own community.

[kitty]

oh. i see what you're saying. but i wonder if that will help people recognize that gay people aren't gonna molest every straight person they see -- will is help to establish a belief of a "secret agent gay man" ... in a negative light?

i.e. booga booga booga they could be ANYWHERE...! BOO!!

(I'm just sorta wondering... I think you're right that they need to portray the gay community as normal... just wondering if that could be misconstrued by nebraska man?)

[Danny]

oh. i see what you're saying. but i wonder if that will help people recognize that gay people aren't gonna molest every straight person they see -- will is help to establish a belief of a "secret agent gay man" ... in a negative light?

i.e. booga booga booga they could be ANYWHERE...! BOO!!

(I'm just sorta wondering... I think you're right that they need to portray the gay community as normal... just wondering if that could be misconstrued by nebraska man?)

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. Obviously there are people that immediately hear the term gay and are against it. But I am sure that if people can see that the gay community as not that much different than their friends and neighbors, they would be more apt to have empathy for their cause.

[etcj]

Exactly.

You can have a gay pride parade, just like you can have an Irish pride parade and the like. But the homosexual community must understand that if their gay pride parade is basically hijacked by the minority of gays, that are incredibly flamboyant, they should know that these pictures are going to be strewn across the airwaves.


Well I'm kinda perplexed by the fact that you think gay pride parades ought to be celebration of the norm. DIVERSITY is the primary message. It's the understanding that we may all be different, but we should not hate or condemn that fact. If anything, pride parades are teaching people to value difference. I don't know how much you know about pride parades, but I will tell you that some crappy Log Cabin Republican was not the one who help to create them. In my opinion, pride parades are perhaps the first and only time that many people (especially Asians and Pacific Islanders) encounter GBLT folk. If not for the screaming queens and men in chaps that you so eagerly seek out to ridicule, you would never have had such momentum to even create such events.

Although GLBT folks are striving for equality, it doesn't mean we want to be like that old couple in American Gothic. Straight people have their own pride parade during every single day of their lives. Our American culture is one giant praise towards heterosexuality and let me tell you...the horny men scrambling for boobs and the "Wild n' Crazy" college girls are the same corresponding symbols for the straight world. I perhaps would not advocate nor have the power to ask you to remove those symbols of heterosexuality from your community, so it's obliging to see the same be for mine.

Getting back on topic, I must say that homophobia exists on many different levels as does racism. Contrary to LL_Cool_D's rantings, being homophobic isn't simply just about the fear that someone will sodomoize in a dark alley. Always look at things at different levels of oppression, which include individual, institutional, and systematic forms of oppression/homophobia. Just as much as we (well more like I) are willing to slap a straight person with the label of homophobe, homophobia can also exists within GLBT folks themselves. In remembering the various levels of homophobia, I say that people are often only willing to see individual levels of homophobia (i.e. hate crimes or hate speech) and some superficial issues related to institutional oppression (i.e. gay marriage rights). There are many other levels to homophobia that perhaps cannot be discussed in this type of forum/space - albeit that many college course spends entire semesters on discussing these issues.

Therefore, a good question is : Does homophobia create oppression? To whom and how?

[SunWuKong]

too lazy to read the entire thread but wanted to throw in my 2 cents. :p

anyway, i think gay guys are cool to hang around with (ok, that's probably a generalisation, but hey, i don't care.) for the simple fact that they have perspectives that straight guys don't. but i'm always a little wary of saying something that would be completely insulting to them.

however, i am a little hesitant about gay women because i think they would probably not like me very much if they got to know me, since i like to objectify women.

[kitty]

The one thing that I find interesting is that pride is filled with 'normal' (looking, acting) members of the gay community both watching and marching in the parade but that people focus in on the showmanship aspect and condemn the whole affair because they are offended by one or two 'displays'.

I think that the sheerly huge number of turnout that pride has around the country is a testament to the 'normal-ness' of the LGBTQ community.

[shy]

somebody who hates homo's by actively beating them up is definitely a homophobic in my opinion. i don't know about me being a homophobis but if some guy tried to touch any hetero guy up i think they should get what's coming to them.

i may be late in replying so please excuse me if i am...

the attitude i get from you is that you centre some sort of anxiety around gay people touching up straight people.

you are right... that is wrong. but then again, anyone, touching anyone else w/out consent, in such a sexual manner, is wrong as it is, right?

so why go all out and categorize such 'homo's touching hetero's'? what's fallible about this attitutde is that it creates this false attitude in which gay men are some sort of sex addict that doesn't have any respect for their fellow human beings. for example, it would be equally wrong for a gay man to feel up another gay man w/ out consent as he would if he felt up a straight man w/out any consent.

see the logic i'm trying to get at?

so though you're totally free to express your oppinion, i'm just asking you to think about the implications of certain things that you have said... in if you truely aren't homophobic, you do not paint yourself in a very good light by some of the ways you've been expressing yourself.

[Danny]

In the Irish pride parades do you see a group of drunken Irishmen running around eating potatoes and boiled cabbage. Do you see them acting against the normal ideal that is set out by society? No you don't.

A Gay pride parade can be to express you sexuality. But it can also be something like, yes, I am gay and I am no different than you or your best friend. The media perpetuates the stereotype that homosexuals are total freaks by splashing video and pictures of the most flamboyant of the characters they can find.

Diversity is nice, but equality is better. Can you honestly say that most of the gay community is flamboyant? Can you say that the shots that the media splashes across the news of biker lesbians with crew cuts flashing their breasts and carrying signs with sexually perverse statements like "I like eating snatch and I am proud of it" is the norm for the gay and lesbian community?

The gay pride parade may, to you and the people directly around you, to value
difference. But to people that you are going to need to basically be in your corner when issues are brought up in the court, is that pride parade in its form today, going to do that? I highly doubt that.

There are plenty of gay clubs where you can meet these wonderful people that you have described. I am not judging them on the type of people they are, but I am judging that they are not doing the cause of eliminating homophobia from the rest of the country. If anything they are perpetuating it.

In regards to the hetereosexual pride parade that occurs everyday. You are wrong in the sense that you do not see a mass gathering of hetereo sexuals marching down the street with blatantly hetereosexual signs, the images of boobies are not splashed across the news, they are seen on television becuase they are to cater to the mass audience, which is hetereosexual.

Majority rules, that is the way it is. But from time to time, a minority within the majority makes a statement that makes the majority look bad becuase it is not true. The majority of homosexuals are not the flamboyant type, but this is the type that is seen, this is the type that people associate with homosexuals. Mostly this is the media's fault, but the media is really the only kind of contact that a lot of people have with homosexuals.

In response to your question, yes, homophobia does caused oppression. Homophobia causes oppression to the homosexual. Why would someone want to hire a homosexual in an environment that they assume they will not be able to handle, or the coworkers would not be able to handle? Homophobia is in a sense racism, without race.

Well I'm kinda perplexed by the fact that you think gay pride parades ought to be celebration of the norm. DIVERSITY is the primary message. It's the understanding that we may all be different, but we should not hate or condemn that fact. If anything, pride parades are teaching people to value difference. I don't know how much you know about pride parades, but I will tell you that some crappy Log Cabin Republican was not the one who help to create them. In my opinion, pride parades are perhaps the first and only time that many people (especially Asians and Pacific Islanders) encounter GBLT folk. If not for the screaming queens and men in chaps that you so eagerly seek out to ridicule, you would never have had such momentum to even create such events.

Although GLBT folks are striving for equality, it doesn't mean we want to be like that old couple in American Gothic. Straight people have their own pride parade during every single day of their lives. Our American culture is one giant praise towards heterosexuality and let me tell you...the horny men scrambling for boobs and the "Wild n' Crazy" college girls are the same corresponding symbols for the straight world. I perhaps would not advocate nor have the power to ask you to remove those symbols of heterosexuality from your community, so it's obliging to see the same be for mine.

Therefore, a good question is : Does homophobia create oppression? To whom and how?

[mr. x]

I don't really have anything against gays as such; besides, I think it would help the heterosexual population if there were more gays since there would be less sexual competition.

course u could say the same of the opposite sex

"if there were more women guys would have less competition"

n'est pas?

[shy]

What is your point? This is a homophobic forum so I guess that talking about homosexuals is only natural. But what you said is true - the more the girls the more your chances of hooking up with a female. Plus, there won't be too many haters out there like there is now when you're walking with a hot female.

umm... hate to burst your bubble. but as we are talking about 'homophobics', that also takes into account lesbians.

so... for you guys, the more lesbians there are, that would sort of counterstrike what you THOUGHT was less competition regarding more gay guys not taking away your women.

but in the end... this is sort of small talk when talking about the seriousness of homophobia.

[kimpossible]

It's not like lesbians are beaten up and killed just for being lesbian now are they?

There have been hate crime murders of lesbians.

[shy]

That's true, although I've hardly thought lesbians would be the object of ridicule unlike male homosexuals. It's not like lesbians are beaten up and killed just for being lesbian now are they?

oh man... but they have! it's horrible... and i've known lesbians who have been terrified at the prospect of being victims to such hate crimes due to the fact that they've heard it in their community, or worse, have known some one to be victim of it.

fortunately, none of my friends, however, have been a victim to such violence, though they have faced much discrimination. there have been, however, some close calls for them.

keep in mind... the media is quite powerfull at giving information AND keeping information. the media plays god as far as having the power OVER information. if it's more popular to talk about violence on gay men, then they'll do just that.

[shy]

I know there is alot of discrimination but I've never heard of anyone (lesbian) dying from an attack. This does'nt mean there's never been any physical attack on lesbians, but I'm under the impression that gay males were more likely to be attacked than female homosexuals.

i'm really not sure what point you're getting at.

are you trying to say that you don't believe that the hate-violence towards lesbian exists or is that great? or the fact that due to your belief that gay men get it more, it's not as important to focus on violence against lesbians?

and i get the feeling you're looking for an argument/debate of some sort due to the nature of your last two posts. let me just say this... does it really matter? does it really matter how much more gay men get attacked/killed then lesbians?

really...

lets look at the big picture here. violence is violence. end of story.

[shy]

The point is: I am not disputing whether female lesbians suffer violence; I'm just stating that the evidence is there for more male homosexuals to suffer from violence than their female counterparts.

I thought maturity was simply the ability to expand on ideas and statistics that "immature" people could'nt? Please tell me if I'm wrong.

sure stats are great, but they can also be misleading. extremely misleading when controlled by the media and/or government.

my point over your point seeing the big picture... i don't really want to nit-pick about 'who gets more violence'. THAT's what i deem as immature.

this forum isn't really meant for picking at stats as it is regarding true issues w/in the community.

plus... here's my 'expansion on ideas'...

one of the reasons why lesbian violence is not always reported is because it happens in the home, contrary to gay men who recieve more violence outside of the home.

due to shame, guilt and confusion, these women do not always report the crime. it is similar to that of date-rape and the difficulties around it... mostly due to psychological reasons.

[shy]

The point is: I am not disputing whether female lesbians suffer violence; I'm just stating that the evidence is there for more male homosexuals to suffer from violence than their female counterparts.

actually, that's not what i got from you.

your point was to challenge HH of whether or not lesbians get killed due to hate crime. and your point was to not say that there was less evidence of such lesbian hate crime (until now) but to say that there is less crime against lesbians then gay men, as i got from the following previous quote:

...although I've hardly thought lesbians would be the object of ridicule unlike male homosexuals. It's not like lesbians are beaten up and killed just for being lesbian now are they?

it's not like lesbians are beaten up and killed just for being lesbians???

surely you can see where i felt as if you were trying to challenge us on what we brought into the conversation here?

there's a huge difference between "lesbians don't get beaten up and killed for being lesbians' and 'i'm not saying that lesbians don't face any violence but there's not as enough stats out there to show for it." BIG DIFFERENCE!!!

not enough statistics for lesbian violence against gay violence... yes, that i'll agree. but don't try to back out of what you were saying previously.

[shy]

Why can't you agree that both lesbians and gays suffer violence but, statistically speaking, males suffer far more violence than women? I don't think it's that hard to accept now, is it?

see, here's where you're jumping to conclusions again... and 'trying to read between MY lines'.

please point out where i said that i could not accept that both suffer from violence? and please point out where i stated that its' not true about gay hate crimes being more then lesbian hate crimes?

really... i'd like to know where i said either of these because i never did. my point is not to doddle on such issues because in such a forum, i think focusing on the violence alone is important enough. like i said... i'm not discounting the fact that lesbians don't seem to have as high of a percentage...

but the flaw in focusing on such a matter can create this idea, which the media is guilty of all the time, in paying more attention in stopping hate crimes against one gender over the other. i'm trying to about equaltiy here... over everyone.

plus... i'd like to point out again that you either lied to me or mislead me into this debate when you said:

...although I've hardly thought lesbians would be the object of ridicule unlike male homosexuals. It's not like lesbians are beaten up and killed just for being lesbian now are they?

so while you have all of the sudden, figured we were debating about whether or not lesbians gets less violence then gay men (which i wasn't)... i thought we were still debating about what you said above... i.e. that you don't believe lesbians get any crime just for being a lesbian.

is that not what you clearly and precisely wrote in this quote above???

Re unreported female lesbian violence: but if a woman suffers violence then she should have the anger, outcry and, yes, self-respect to report it otherwise she would live in psychological hell.

there's been a debate about this w/ me before between Mr. Z and me (which he lost). speaking as a woman who's experienced relationship voilence, the key is to not make the women feel like they are at fault for being the victim.

and what you just said doesn't help those that are in any sort of domestic violence because you are basically saying, "it's her fault. she's got no one to blame but herself."

[shy]

Look, I'm not going into some debate over what you typed and what I typed; it's just not worth it. I think you're playing with my words and using it to suit your needs.

umm... but you see... i felt you were playing w/ my words. and that was what i was trying to point out. don't insult me by saying one thing and then malnipulating your thoughts later on to suit your needs and try to prove me wrong. i was far from trying to play w/ your words.

my sincerity is this... while i was debating w/ you about one thing, you changed it around to without me realizing it. surely you must see how that is frustrating and quite unfair to me.

Anyway, we are getting off-topic. I would, however, say this: A woman being abused domestically does not need to SUFFER IN SILENCE.

i find that insulting. regardless of how you put it... it is still using language in such a way that puts blame on the female victim.

[Fireblade]

i find that insulting. regardless of how you put it... it is still using language in such a way that puts blame on the female victim.

Kinda off-topic, but shy has a point. A lot of people who are in the majority say "oh they don't have to suffer, if they just only pulled themselves up by their bootstraps". However the case may be, suffering DOES occur, and as much as we like to believe this society is not one of violence, there are many examples that it is. When you come across anyone who has suffered any sort of social truma, or experience it yourself, it opens up your eyes. You can't treat individuals as just numbers in a satistic. If that were the case, you wouldn't see anything but more of these occurances happen.

My two cents.

[Tao]

I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here:

Fireblade -- In no way am I exonerating the males who abuse here. If I had my way these people should be locked up if they seriously abuse (sexually, physically and even emotionally). I do empathize with alot of women when, through many times no fault of their own, they feel helpless and don't have the courage to set off a sequence of chain reactions that would help themselves. Sometimes, just sometimes, I ask myself why do women put up with emotional and physical sexual abuse?

I mean we are not talking about trivial things here, now are we? Trivial things like what clothes shall I buy, what shall I eat, or what shall I wear tonight? Furthermore, it's not like alot of these people don't have the capacity to help themselves. It's not like someone is asking them to bench press 500lb's or to run a marathon, right? Sometimes, all it takes is a simple train of thought, with alot of help from counselors and psychologists, to believe that they can make life better for themselves.
hey people can talk all they want, but when you've been in that kind of situation, i'd bet it'd feel a whole lot different than being a third party observer.

[shy]

Furthermore, it's not like alot of these people don't have the capacity to help themselves. It's not like someone is asking them to bench press 500lb's or to run a marathon, right? Sometimes, all it takes is a simple train of thought, with alot of help from counselors and psychologists, to believe that they can make life better for themselves.

speaking as some one who has tried to guide those abused women into professional counceling, as a peer councelor myself... you make it sound a lot easier then it really is. i only wish it were easier...

also, as a woman that was in a abusive relationship... yeah... what tao said.

finally, this topic has already been done (and yes, i know you didn't realize that). just to give you heads up... the other person also took your stance and i took my stance. eventually, the topic was locked. because no good will come out of it if we continue on like this.

basically... if those that have been abused and even those women who have an inkling of what it must be like to be in an abusive relationship... say that it is not easy to leave the relationship as you make it out to be...

just try to accept that, believe them, give them the benefit of the doubt... and drop it. believe what you want to be... but it is a sensitive issue. and though you may not realize it nor intend it... what you just said does have insulting results for those that have been through such a horrible situation.

thank-you.

[Faithless]

Outside of gay vs. straight -- have you ever noticed the variations in masculinity and femininity?

http://psych.fullerton.edu/rlippa/gender/Gend_outline3.htm

With women, you have the girly-girls and the butch at their extremes. With men, you have the effeminate and the macho at their extremes.

The above link talks about the biological context. I tend to think there's a biological link like this that explains gay and straight.

We all probably know some people whose interest toward sex and the opposite gender vary. You've got the highly interested and the barely interested ( :( ). I have a personal scientific theory that this interest is only on one side of opposite gender attraction spectrum.

That at some point, the lessening interest in opposite gender moves toward interest in the same sex.

Even with interest in the same sex, their is a variation there, too.