Have you ever been sexually assualted by your Asian Partner?

[John0101]

Have you ever been sexual assualted or felt like you been sexually by your Asian Partner? This is a really tough question and for those who has and I'm sure it isn't easy answering.

I guess this questions can apply to both females and males, but I really don't want to hear the statistics about some white guy or girl sexually assualting you, but other Asian people.

Sexual assualt could mean different things to different people and there are a lot of ways to define the word, so i'll let you decide.

[achtungbaby]

Thanks for posting this John. This is a great topic, although I wonder how many guys would admit to being sexually assaulted...

[kitty]

actually... i voted no 'cuz i've never had an asian partner. could someone add that option to the poll?

[teaz0r]

before, after and during

[coagulated fat]

then why don't you leave him? i don't know if you're being funny or not, but just leave the asian guy whose hitting on you if you're being serious. oh. btw, this reminds me of situations whereby i've seen SAD, LONELY ASIAN WOMEN (normally in their thirties or forties with CHILDREN) married to abusive, domineering and sexist asian men. the question is:- why do these women STAY with them? they've got to improve their self-esteem issues. that's what i say.
The abusive men need to improve their not-abusing-people issues. It's unsettlingly common to blame the victims of sexual assault, but does that really make sense? If the abuse occurs in a relationship, a lot of times they are scared to leave the relationship, or the lack of self-esteem is an effect of being abused. They feel like they would be nothign without their partner because the partner's abuse has made them feel this way.

[achtungbaby]

actually... i voted no 'cuz i've never had an asian partner. could someone add that option to the poll?Done.

[achtungbaby]

then why don't you leave him? i don't know if you're being funny or not, but just leave the asian guy whose hitting on you if you're being serious.Why would you automatically assume its an Asian guy?

[John0101]

I guess this question really ask are asian men more or less likely to commit a sexual assualt compared to whites, black, hispanics, etc? I'm thinking no, but I know i am personally baised.

[kitty]

wait... i'm curious if you're talking about sexual abuse or physical abuse?

[tapestrybabe]

i find that odd...
why would ppl be NOT sure if they were sexually assaulted??

[John0101]

wait... i'm curious if you're talking about sexual abuse or physical abuse?

This is why I put unsure as one of the answers, sexual abuse means different things to different people. The defination of sexual abuse does involve a degree of physical abuse in it and have a strong correlation. Sexual = physical. It all really depends on you and your "comfort zone".

[John0101]

i find that odd...
why would ppl be NOT sure if they were sexually assaulted??

Everyone agrees rape is sexual assault, but what if the guy or girl didn't rape but instead still cross that imaginary line and the person felt violated. It could be something simple as stealing a kiss IMO. They imposed themselves onto someone. Maybe somebody did steal a kiss, the person who recieved it felt violated, but maybe somebody watching the incident didn't feel like that person was violated.

[John0101]

I also think that physical abuse in Asia (in asian-asian couples) is very common, many cultures feel that men have a right to have dominance over woman. Females are culturally made to feel that they should be submissve. I see this in Chinese culture, Korean Culture (the age thing too), Japanese culture, Bangladeshian culture, hell even in AMERICAN CULTURE.

[mr. x]

well i was at a thing where a homosexual asian man did a speech at my comm. college and he talked about being tied to a bed and raped by a (white) bf

[Cipherous]

I am not sure if you can really catergorize whos the most abusive race.

I mean there are alot, and I mean alot, of different factors that are responsible for the behaviors of such men.

If an Asian man was raised by an abusive dad, hung around friends who treated women like crap and what not...its most likely that Asian man would treat his woman like crap.

In general, I think more conservative cultures seem to impose a role upon women. More liberal cultures seem to blur those roles between man and woman.

Thus which leads me to believe that I think Asian cultures when compared to Western cultures maybe more chauvinistic.

[Tao]

I am not sure if you can really catergorize whos the most abusive race.

I mean there are alot, and I mean alot, of different factors that are responsible for the behaviors of such men.

If an Asian man was raised by an abusive dad, hung around friends who treated women like crap and what not...its most likely that Asian man would treat his woman like crap.

In general, I think more conservative cultures seem to impose a role upon women. More liberal cultures seem to blue those roles between man and woman.

Thus which leads me to believe that I think Asian cultures when compared to Western cultures maybe more chauvinistic.
i dunno, old european cultures were very gender biased too.

[tapestrybabe]

Everyone agrees rape is sexual assault, but what if the guy or girl didn't rape but instead still cross that imaginary line and the person felt violated. It could be something simple as stealing a kiss IMO. They imposed themselves onto someone. Maybe somebody did steal a kiss, the person who recieved it felt violated, but maybe somebody watching the incident didn't feel like that person was violated.
well whatever...
i think i still feel confused... i mean if a person feels violated by a certain action... why should ppl be UNCERTAIN if they were violated or not... i mean whatever... were discussing sexual assualt and how it could mean DIFFERent things to different people... and the people who voted UNSURe... i guess the way i see things... their not trusting their own judgements... their not going by their standards of what it means to them... but their going by someone elses standards of whats sexual assualt is... i dunno... i still dont understand how ppl can be unsure if they were sexually assaulted/ violated by another person...

[amietron]

well whatever...
i think i still feel confused... i mean if a person feels violated by a certain action... why should ppl be UNCERTAIN if they were violated or not... i mean whatever... were discussing sexual assualt and how it could mean DIFFERent things to different people... and the people who voted UNSURe... i guess the way i see things... their not trusting their own judgements... their not going by their standards of what it means to them... but their going by someone elses standards of whats sexual assualt is... i dunno... i still dont understand how ppl can be unsure if they were sexually assaulted/ violated by another person...
i think it's because they're unsure whether it was uncalled for, like whether they were acting too welcoming in the first place.

[BeTheReds]

I don't consider myself a rapist or sexual assailant, but I have been told by an Asian-American ex-girlfriend that one time I came off very strong, and she didn't want to have sex that time, but she was too afraid to tell me so. I'm not trying to suggest that Asian women are submissive or not asseritve enough, but it certainly would be possible that since Asian men would would be more likely to date Asian women, they would be more likely to unknowingly assault them if and only if my ex girlfriend's feelings at that time match those of many Asian women.

When she told me about it much later after the event took place, it had a huge effect on me, and I was ashamed that my selfishness and sexual drive didn't allow me to pick up on her feelings.

[nonamerasian]

You're a big guy for taking what she told you into consideration.

I think you're the first guy I've ever noticed admitting that you may have came off strong.

I have however overheard a couple of females talk about times their boyfriends pushed them too much, but I'm not sure if any of them ever their boyfriends because they always came off as scared or perhaps worried about what "he'd think."

I believe all of those instances involved White couples, but that probably isn't because of racial/cultural factors. All of these instances are from high school and it was a predominately White school, so that's more likely the reason.

[angel nympho]

I guess this question really ask are asian men more or less likely to commit a sexual assualt compared to whites, black, hispanics, etc? I'm thinking no, but I know i am personally baised.


I really think that the answer to this question has less to do with the race of the offender, but the quality of character of the offender.

[blkazngirl]

Yes, and it was a friend of my uncle. I was young when my dad passed away. I would go help my uncle out at his business. He had a friend come China that would come over and do business. On one of his visits he had to go to Canada on business and asked my uncle if I could come along to help him with translations. We had separate rooms, but he made up an excuse that he was unable to understand a letter and wanted me to explain it to him. Needless to say that was not his plan.

[shy]

then why don't you leave him? i don't know if you're being funny or not, but just leave the asian guy whose hitting on you if you're being serious. oh. btw, this reminds me of situations whereby i've seen SAD, LONELY ASIAN WOMEN (normally in their thirties or forties with CHILDREN) married to abusive, domineering and sexist asian men. the question is:- why do these women STAY with them? they've got to improve their self-esteem issues. that's what i say.

it's so easy to judge and give free advice when one doesn't have a true understanding of what it's like to be in such a relationship.

emotional and physical abuse in a relationship can happen quite gradually. it takes time to malnipulate another person into thinking that he/she is worthless and would be even more worthless if they were to leave the relationship. threats are often used as well. it's not as easy as 'he abuses her one day. she leaves him.'

btw, just would like to point out that teaz0r might have been talking about a past relationship.

[Fireblade]

What constitutes as sexual assualt from your partner, if you're a guy, and your partner is a girl?

[shy]

well whatever...
i think i still feel confused... i mean if a person feels violated by a certain action... why should ppl be UNCERTAIN if they were violated or not... i mean whatever... were discussing sexual assualt and how it could mean DIFFERent things to different people... and the people who voted UNSURe... i guess the way i see things... their not trusting their own judgements... their not going by their standards of what it means to them... but their going by someone elses standards of whats sexual assualt is... i dunno... i still dont understand how ppl can be unsure if they were sexually assaulted/ violated by another person...

take it from me... i've had at least a couple situations where i wasn't sure.

the first, i was just 14. it was my scuba diving instructor. and i really had a crush on him but at 14, i wasn't thinking of anything sexual. anyway, one day, he had me to himself and he tried to feel me up. i pushed him away. i was extremely confused. perhaps deep down inside, i knew it was wrong, but through peer pressure, my gf's made me feel that i should be flattered because it meant he was attracted to me. never underestimate the power of peer pressure when you're a teen.

the other time happened earlier this year. i was getting a massage at this spa i frequently use to go to. the massage therapist got me to a very relaxed state where i was in that sleepy, hypnotic state... and that's when things got weird. afterwards, i was quite confused... but after talking it out w/ my friend who's a registered physio therapist, she helped me to see that what he did was wrong and unprofessional.

i understand why people might think it's weird that others get confused of whether or not they were sexually assaulted... but lets not forget that we're all raised differently. and sometimes, unfortuantely, some women were raised to think that THEY are the ones that have to control their 'signals' as to not attract the wrong kind of attention. so when that wrong kind of attention comes their way, they immediately feel guilt and shame which causes this confusion of 'did that really happen? or am i making a big deal of things?'

i think the underlying reasons for this guilt is if they can convince themselves of it not being sexual assault, they don't have to feel guilty that perhaps they caused it (which of course, they didn't... but that's how they are brought up to believe).

[BigLew]

That kind of shit is in cultures in evry corner of the globe, saying it like it's MOSTLY exclusive to Asian cultures is pure bullshit.

[etcj]

I also think that physical abuse in Asia (in asian-asian couples) is very common, many cultures feel that men have a right to have dominance over woman. Females are culturally made to feel that they should be submissve. I see this in Chinese culture, Korean Culture (the age thing too), Japanese culture, Bangladeshian culture, hell even in AMERICAN CULTURE.
You are right - Rape, sexual assault, and incest are major issues that women in Asia face. In particular, South Asian countries face many of these issues as women are often victims of assualt and harassment. For example, acid attacks are often the consequences for South Asian women who reject the sexual advances of men or alert family/authorities of rape/incest.

Does it happen in the United States? Yes, rape and incest among Asian and Pacific Islander women is also high, especially for foreign born/immigrant women. In many cases, these women remain in abusive relationship for immigration purposes for fear of deportation initiated by husbands and potential loss of custody over children after deportation. The Violence Against Women Act established in the 90's helped to protect women against these abusive relationship and presented ways to leave these types of environments without the fear of deportation.

Statistics among men who experience sexual violence is unclear, especially for Asian and Pacific Islander men. As someone previously noted, abuse and violence towards Asian men exists, but is not well documented (at least not as well as compared to women). It is also unclear to the level of abuse among Asian-Asian male relationships.

Major considerations for staying in abusive relationships generally involve:
Money/finances: lack of financial capabilities without partner.
Shelter: threat of homelessness if victim alerts authorities.
Loss of children: abusive partner will deny victim ability to see children.
Threat of violence on others: threat of violence upon children, elderly parents, or even pets.
Community stigma: Loss of personal reputation in the community if victim tells anyone about it. Double-edge sword for staying or leaving abusive relationships.
Hope this helps...

[shy]

hmm. i think you're underestimating me. i know quite a few sad lonely asian women who behave and think in a very sad kind of way. i'll agree with you in that emotional abuse as well as physical may be gradual, but that is still no excuse for women to think that the guy who's been abusing will or consequently change. i'd think that women who stick with their husbands have alot of self-esteem issues to face up to. oh, and what's so difficult for a woman, if she respects herself, to have the independence to leave her absuing husband?

teaz0r - may have been involved in past relationship. but who knows?

i'm not going to argue and say that you don't know these 'sad, lonely, asian women' and i'm certainly not going to argue with you that they should leave their sorry ass, abusive men. i'm just saying that the simple phrase 'sad, lonely asian women' kind of creates this destructive label. trust me... i've dealt w/ many abusive relationships from a peer counselor end. every situation is different but using such language just makes them feel like they have less hope. you know what i mean?

as for teaz0r... all i was trying to say was lets not assume she's talking about a present OR a past relationship... at least not until she clarifies. ;)

[shy]

The *moral* of the story is I guess women should be more selective before opening their legs to any man out there who just plays the right mind games with them.

and there you have it folks... today's lesson by mr. z.

[kimpossible]

I don't see how "sad lonely Asian women" can be that bad? I guess it's just a question of semantics

Actually, it might be more of a case of repetition. He's been getting so much mileage out of that phrase the past couple of days it's practically his mantra by now.

[teaz0r]

i'm not going to argue and say that you don't know these 'sad, lonely, asian women' and i'm certainly not going to argue with you that they should leave their sorry ass, abusive men. i'm just saying that the simple phrase 'sad, lonely asian women' kind of creates this destructive label. trust me... i've dealt w/ many abusive relationships from a peer counselor end. every situation is different but using such language just makes them feel like they have less hope. you know what i mean?

as for teaz0r... all i was trying to say was lets not assume she's talking about a present OR a past relationship... at least not until she clarifies. ;)


oh. forgot all about this thread.

it happened long ago. 8 years? yeah, i was 15 or 16.

as for the guy that keeps on saying sad lonely asian women
have you taken in consideration, that even though these
sad asian women got out of the relationship, the men still
violated them, we're talking about
sexual assaults aren't we? not emotional abuse.

i also can't think straight. it's 5am.
i'm sad lonely and asian.

[ChinaLama]

ok...can we get back to the topic in the title? this is a pretty serious thread and the tone shouldn't be jokes about "azngangsta pistol-whipping".

[>:^|]

Here are some interesting statistics:

http://www.apiahf.org/apidvinstitute/Research%20&%20Policy/factsheet.htm

If you've heard a lot of women speak, often you will hear them describe incidents that seem to clearly be assaults. However, they sometimes seem incapable of directly labelling what happened as "rape" or "assault." In this way I think it is possible for people to be unsure.

A woman is most likely to be killed while or immediately after she leaves her abusive partner. This very real fear of violence may prevent a woman from leaving the relationship. In addition, women who cannot speak English may have a much harder time seeking assistance.

[shy]

i know that the expression sad lonely asian women is not constructive for you or others, but if they're literally sad lonely asian women what can you otherwise call them? these women are truly sad specimens who normally complain about this and that, but they rarely don't do anything about it. which of course is completely untrue. if they had any ounce of self-respect then they would pack their bags and get out of the place where they are being abused.

hmm... maybe i'm not wording my thoughts right.

i'm not disagreeing with you... and perhaps i'm even misunderstanding you. i guess it's not so much the words/semantics you chose but this general attitude i see people who AREN'T in an abusive relationship.

you know... it's like people sort of just walk around complaining about these women instead of trying to help them. or... maybe it's best if they just mind their own business if all they can do is sit there and judge them.

what i mean is... i can't stress enough that unless one has been through it on the victim's side, it's extremely hard to truely understand what the victim goes through. i'm not saying that these women can't do anything about it... i'm just saying that more likely then not, those that sit there and judge from my experience, seem to give the least amount of compassion and sympathy.

and in the end... they really just don't help. they are totally ineffective towards helping to solve the problem. so basically... such people aren't needed in the scene.

btw, i'm not saying that YOU are one of these people.. just explaining why i might have misunderstood you due to the negative attitudes i've seen over and over again - it makes things more pessimistic then not).

[kimpossible]

i hope it does'nt hit any soft chords with any of you asian women on YW. you know who you are and what you are and you can CHANGE that. the balls in your court ladies.

not chord. broken record. it's like nagging.

edit: not your feelings or opinion on the matter, just the phrase.

[teaz0r]

hey, don't look it as a negative. from your avatar you look quite decent. i'm sure your past experiences will fade and you will find someone who'll respect you for who you are and treat you right.

HAHAHAHHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAA.

it's ok that you think that i am not doing anyone one any good.


so drop it. simple as that.

[TyroneK(prettypretty)]

This thread hasn't lived up to its potential. Someone should judiciously edit it.

Edit: Heh. As opposed to the other kind of editing?

[shy]

however, i still think that having someone giving these women some constructive advice is way better than not giving at all. this advice should be critical as well. i think it's better or at least just as good as giving advice such as "oh, you'll be alright. your husband will grow out of it" trust me such advice wont work

and once again, i totally agree with you! not once have i said that one should 'humour' these women in such abusive relationships. no, no, no... not at all!

my intent is to ask what makes one's advice an effective and constructive advice. and THAT, believe it or not, is usually a really difficult task to get right. we often run on autopilot without thinking about our true intent before we speak.

what language is one using when giving such constructive advice? what tone of voice? what body language?

basically, a person with clear intentions will be more focused in HOW the message is delivered so that it actually sinks in to such victims of abusive relationships. what good is the message if it's not delivered in an effective way? see what i mean?

when some one approaches some one in a negative way, when delivering such a message (even if the surface intent is to be constructive), why do you think they speak in such a manner?

from my studies in communication (workshops i've taken myself) and my studies in psychology, i've learned that in the end, it's all about the person's true intent. it boils down to, "are you giving your advice to this person for her sake... or YOUR sake???"

most people who approach the victim in a negative manner do it in such a way that will make the other person feel more ashamed of themselves (even if this isn't done consciously). in doing this, they subconsciously meet their own needs in expressing how they are disgusted in this person and at the same time, they remind themselves that they are smart enough not to be in such a situation. so while they give the IMAGE of helping a person, they also get a chance to stroke their own ego (many times, people aren't aware of this).

this is something that we are ALL guilty of from time to time... some more then others. so i'm not pointing any fingers here... just trying to explain my point and a little bit of my own history. and no, i'm not directing this to you, but since i'm now immersed into this discussion with you, you have given me a chance to explain my thoughts.

[on a side note, i was not around with your comments in the gay community section so i can not be very objective.]

[shy]

however, i can seperate between people who actively seek to stroke their ego by putting down people less fortunate than them like you said, and those who constructively give advice because they give an alternative and many times a BETTER alternative which the recipient sometimes fail to accept.

just to clarify, this above statement sounds like you think i was pointing fingers at you in which case, as i have said earlier, i am not. so please know that i was merely trying to create a discussion i thought would be usefull in the areas of abusive relationships.

ironically, i read HH's reply after i replied back to you last. and i think it's a prime example of how a message is delivered. she expressed that your message sounded like 'nagging', as i guess, you have expressed this thought process of yours in the same light before this topic came about.

do you think you're nagging? or... if you don't, can you see how it comes off as nagging? just curious...

[SunWuKong]

LL_Cool_D, i think you are oversimplifying the entire issue. maybe you should respect the female perspective here, since what's being discussed has been largely about women who have been/are being abused. basically, the female posters here have, and always will have, a much better perspective than you. if they say it's not as simple as packing up their bags and leaving, then take their word for it.

[kimpossible]

ironically, i read HH's reply after i replied back to you last. and i think it's a prime example of how a message is delivered. she expressed that your message sounded like 'nagging', as i guess, you have expressed this thought process of yours in the same light before this topic came about.

do you think you're nagging? or... if you don't, can you see how it comes off as nagging? just curious...

well for me it was just the repitition of the phrase, not his opinions/input per se. to be fair to him he did directly ask me about it afterwards politely and apologized if he offended me or anyone else.

edit: I was originally goofing on him a bit, I wasn't offended. Didn't know people would take that seriously.

[applehead]

true. abusive men need to improve their non-abusing peoples issues. however, i'm not denying that men are not to blame. they are. but the woman needs to take a definite stand. the only way out is for such women to leave their relationship. i mean 've seen middle=aged women complain oh my husband is this. my husband is that. instead of whining about it why not do something constructive about it.


if you're talking about a husband and wife
relationship, if there is sexual abuse
there is usually emotional and mental abuse.
the husbands make their wife feel helpless
by constant threats and negative comments.
this in turn makes the wife feel like she has nowhere
to turn.
ever hear about underground women's shelters?
why do you think those exist?

[shy]

well for me it was just the repitition of the phrase, not his opinions/input per se. to be fair to him he did directly ask me about it afterwards politely and apologized if he offended me or anyone else.

edit: I was originally goofing on him a bit, I wasn't offended. Didn't know people would take that seriously.

ah... i see. thanks for the clarification.

[shy]

if you're talking about a husband and wife
relationship, if there is sexual abuse
there is usually emotional and mental abuse.
the husbands make their wife feel helpless
by constant threats and negative comments.
this in turn makes the wife feel like she has nowhere
to turn.
ever hear about underground women's shelters?
why do you think those exist?

yeah, it's pretty bad that those shelters have to be 'underground'. the threat that comes with keeping the women from running away is damn scary. it was hard enough for me just to deal with an abusive boyfriend... i can't imagine what it would be like if i had married him.

[shy]

oh - there's no problem there. after all we're here to learn right?

if i came off as nagging then maybe i'm suffering from trying to help too many asian women friends in a vunerable position.

cool and understood. i do wish you all the best in helping your women friends. i know it's a really tough battle and you can't do it for them, but you never know... you're probably making a difference a little at a time. :)

[SunWuKong]

swk - with respect i do acknowledge the female perpective here. if i'm not respecting the females enough then i'll back off. by the way, i know a few asian women who have been emotionally abused, although not physically, so i do kind of sense where they are coming from. of course, not everything is black and white and there are always variables so one should not overgeneralize here. but not one asian woman here has offered sound advice (no offence to all or any) on what to do when the husband has physically or emotionally abused them. if i should take their word for it then please let them offer some solutions, or at least partial solutions please. no offence inteneded y'all

well unless i have read it incorrectly, some of the women here have already basically said that it's not as simple as "packing up and leaving", as you've posted more than once. and some of these women have been abused before. you said something to the effect of "if they have any self-respect, they'd pack up and leave". firstly, you have no real experience and never will have any real experience for what it's like being an abused woman. secondly, that's practically an insult to women who have been abused. if you truly want your advice to be viewed as constructive, then rhetoric like that is absolutely unnecessary. and if you are off-handedly expressing resentment, spite, or whatever else, then i can go ahead and delete all your posts in this thread.

[shy]

but not one asian woman here has offered sound advice (no offence to all or any) on what to do when the husband has physically or emotionally abused them. if i should take their word for it then please let them offer some solutions, or at least partial solutions please. no offence inteneded y'all

ahh.. fair enough. but if that's what you wanted to hear from us, why didn't you just ask? ;) also, to be fair, due to the nature of how this thread was started, i didn't know this was aimed at helping those who are in abusive relationships (as far as giving advice - plus, i've learned that it's not always good to give advice unless advice is asked).

okay... my philosophy is to get it straight how a message should be delivered before delivering it. so my advice to those giving advice has already been stated in my previous responses.. and because i think that this is not always easy, one of the best ways to learn about helping is to contact professionals who deal with abusive relationships daily. i'm sure this won't hurt if you get a good referral in one's city/town.

for the women who are in such abusive relationships (and men as well - lets face it, it's not always a 'women's problem'), i don't know if there's a clear-cut 'method' of getting out of it because there's different degrees and ways of abuse.

but in my experience, i can't stress enough how much support is needed. support, support and then some more support.

through not just one person (though it usually takes one person to confide to to make that first step), but also through family and a counselor (this usually doesn't come right at the beginning but that's okay - baby steps works better then big leaps and bounds where one might fall down harder).

for me, i don't think i could have gotten out of it w/out the support of my friends. and this was challenging for me because in those first 3 years i was with him, he 'chased' many of my friends away through his crafted malnipulation.

it took me, actually, a year with my own 'underground shelter' (in other words, i reached out behind his back for help) to get my strength at the level i needed to dump his sorry ass.

the important thing to remember is that we're all human. and i honestly don't believe that we can make such big steps w/out the help of others. and even with the help of others, it's still up to us.. it's still up to us to make that first move... and to stick with it. so for those who might feel 'weak' when seeking help from others... please don't. because we're still the ones doing the hard work. we're just asking for a little guidance and push once in awhile. or at the least, a safe shoulder to cry on when we think we're about to break or not going to make it.

sounds sappy? yeah... sometimes it is. but who the fuck cares? as long as it works, 'sappy images' don't really matter in my book. :)

finally, the road to recovery is not easy. it's a long one.. and the experience that most of us who have been in an abusive relationship is one that create an ever-lasting impact. it took me a long time after i left him to conjure up my self-respect and self-love fully. i think i won half the battle when i left him, but it took awhile for me to truly see that i was worth so much more then he made me feel. and for most people in abusive relationships, there is no easy way to get to that stage. it's suppose to take a long time because i believe the value of the learning process will be greater if it's not rushed through.

[>:^|]

Gee, this thread seems to be following the theme of another thread: One person who doesn't belong to the affected group comes in and posts a bunch of uninformed, insulting remarks. Then when other people post some responses trying to address this ignorance, that same person posts the same things over and over and over and over again.

Saying so don't make it so.

[shy]

support from family should always come first in my opinion. ultimately it's got to be the decision of the woman in question.

i hope that's feasable for many people in such a situation... it's definitely more ideal. but then again... i couldn't go to my mother because she would have freaked way too much. i needed some one calmer to go to. and my mother has a way (w/out meaning to) of making me feel like i brought it on myself. i just didn't need that at the time. but i agree with you, if one feels comfortable in going to their family then i certainly encourage them to do so.

at least one of your friends should have done it - sensed him out. your friends should have known what he was up to. sometimes not everything people tell you should be taken as face value. look between the lines.

i don't blame them because this all started in highschool. we were all a lot more naive back then. you gotta remember... i'm 31 now. it's been awhile and so i've had a lot of time to reflect back. then again, everything is 20/20 in hindsight. ;) for me, what matter most was that when i did tell my friends, they dropped everything to be there for me. and help me make it through. they were never judgemental (though they were extremely angry with him) and very patient.

also, he was really crafty in how he remained low under the radar. my aunt is one of the must intuitive people i know when it comes to seeing how people pair up with one another. she was damn upset when she found out that she didn't see him for the person he was.

i think you should be commended for that. it's not easy when all your self-esteem is sucked out by a manipulative man. sometimes, you need strength and single-minded determination to completely focus on the task in hand.

thanks. :) and yes, i'm really glad to be away from him. now, i'm happily married with some one i NEVER feel threatened by. he is awesome in so many ways.

i doubt that. some people are just mentally tough you know? they don't really need to pander to other people to help solve their problems, although having that kind of support is great and makes you feel grateful that you've got good friends to back you up.

support most definitely makes everything easier even for those that are really strong. from what i have seen, really strong people have one weakness. and that is... fear of trusting others to help them.

after i left that man, i went through 'i can do it on my own'. it went the other extreme and backfired on me. i have spent the last few years of my life learning that i am not superwoman... that there's nothing wrong with asking for help. sometimes, thinking one is that strong can also make one untouchable by others.

and it can get self-destructive.

[shy]

Shy - Was the reason why you did'nt go to your mother because she disaproved of him? Either on his age, personality or race? So, by going to her were you afraid that you were validating her earlier opinions?

that's a hard question to answer because most of what i do my mother thinks is wrong! :p seriously.. i love my mom. i really do. but she's got her only control issues. she really has to be right about everything and needs to make people feel that she is right over them. and i've learned that she's totally not aware of it or in a huge self-denial. so... going to her w/ anything, even if it's something that some one else did to me, she will try and find a way to see if i brought it onto myself.

well... i think i am partially accountable for attracting an abuser in my life. i'm totally not going to make myself feel like crap because of that mistake because we all make mistakes... growing pains. unfortunately, some people's growing pains are tougher then others.

anyway, the reason why i could not go to her is because her reaction probably would have made me feel more ashamed of myself. and deep down, i knew that would break me instead of help me. i hope i made sense there... if not, ask away.

I only wished my Asian female friends would see how sometimes, not always, the "charmers" are not always the real deal. It seems like alot of women can be 'duped' into sleeping with some man who says the right things and seems to do the right things which, of course, plays well into the mind games so popular with dating.

it takes some time for some people to learn about the true, underlying intents of such 'charmers'. my ex-bf whom i've been using as an example, actually was very shy... a brainer... and not really a charmer. he portrayed himself as quite 'normal'. or i should say... 'the harmless guy'. but you're right... since then, i had met lots of charmers. especially when i was re-learning how to date after leaving that relationship.

i would say that i've been fortunate enough not to have entered any other abusive relationships since then. my second serious boyfriend, however, did try to get controling when it came to sex. as soon as i saw a pattern in him, i ended it. who knows if it would have gotten worse with him, but it was a chance i didn't want to risk - plus, he obviously had serious problems that i didn't want to be involved in.

i WILL admit that i've been played by some charmers... but also learned some great, valuable lessons in life. in fact, one might even say that due to those lessons, i got smarter in finding the right kind of guy, which i have now ended up with. i do feel blessed.

However, I truly wonder whether other women who have been abused by their past boyfriends/husbands truly grow out of that unfortunate phase of their lives. Sometimes, what they get in a new man they find something that resembles the old man.

not all, but some women do end up in patterns of being attracted to the same guy. it's not easy to pinpoint what causes this as everyone and every situation is different, but if i had to guess, perhaps these women haven't had the proper chance to heal and regain some of their self-respect that they've lost.

as i have stressed before and will always stress... the road to recovery is a really long one and should never be rushed. it's those that either ignore the recovery phase as one that is fragile and hard work, are also the ones that end up falling back more then just a step or two. and they fall hard.

not to sound like a broken record, but this is why i sort of wince at people who say, "well... if he's that crummy to her... why doesn't she just leave? where's her self-respect?" the problem isn't so much that the women don't have self-respect. i think it's more... they can't find it. it's there deep inside of them but they've somehow, forgotten (or never really knew) how to use it. so telling them something like that won't help. because these women... they feel so lost w/out knowing how to conjure up that self-respect.

i remember thinking that it was impossible. that's how bad it was for me.

I disagree that asking for self-help can make you self-destructive; being weak and always seeking for help is a more likely cause of self-destruction.

let me clarify what i meant... self-help isn't self-destructive. what i meant was that self-help is destructive when it gets to the point where one fears asking help from others because one thinks that is some sort of sign of weakness... or because one fears in trusting others.

actually... part of the strenght of self-help IS to be able to seek help from others when that outside support is needed. it's like when an alcoholic finally reaches out to some one and admits he/she has a drinking problem. they can admit it to themselves, but it's more of a reality when they admit it to others.

i suppose, most importantly, it's all about balance and moderation.

[shy]

So, are you saying that you did the things either because you wanted to displease you mum? For instance, dating a guy who she disproves of? Like a white guy or a guy whose personality your mum actually disliked? Perhaps it's a problem with Asian women? I think Artsyfartsyjanet mentioned before she had problems with her controlling parents and she just had to leave; so is it possible that we do things to knowingly annoy our parents?

no... i didn't go out with him to displease my parents. in fact, i did many things to TRY and please my parents. but never did anything on purpose to displease them (i.e. - i didn't go out of my way to do such things because it was never part of my life philosophy). i know a lot of asian women who date outside of their race get that sort of reputation. i would like to try and voice my oppinion that that is a very overly rated, generalization.

i was simply head over heals for this guy. there's really not much to be read more into it. and i can say this w/ confidence because i am saying this is 20/20 hindsight after over 10 years of reflecting on it (plus therapy ;))

How were you partially accountable? Did you actively seek out the men whom you would consider would abuse them? Were you not selective in choosing your partner? Of course, with hindsight, everything is clearer, so it's not as easy as many people assume when choosing partners.

when i use the word 'accountability', it's part of my own self-philosophy that i use so that i never play victim to something that happened so long ago. though i totally did not actively seek out some one who would be abusive (as it was quite a shock to me that he became that way about a year into our relationship - plus we had been good friends for a year first so i thought i knew him), i will say that there is a slight chance i might have subconciously attracted such a guy. or at the least, allowed what happened to go so far.

**let me strongly stress that when people talk about such self-accountability, it is extremely dangerous upon using it towards some one else. so just because i admitted it, it's not right to use it on another abused victim. it's a subjective, self-choice philosophy that only works on the person him/herself.. not one that is directed towards some one else. this was also part of my therapy so i know what i am talking about. if people decide to take my experience of 'accountability' v.s. 'victim-role' on some one else (ex. telling some one, "you should take more accountability for your abusive relationship") i can only guarantee you'll be doing more harm then good!

as for being selective in choosing my partner... heh heh... i was a teenager. and didn't have any experience prior to him. sort of hard as i had nothing to go by. :)

Do you mean she was right when she disproved of your relationship? I can understand the reactions of mothers, not just Asians, since their children are the most important people in their lives.

actually, i never said that she disproved of him. she was quite welcoming to him. but of course, IF she found out what was happening at the time to me, she would have turned it around to make her advantage and say that she never approved of him. i don't mean to make it sound like my mother is a bad person. but there's a bit of confusion in her when it comes to her own ways of malnipulation. she will trade off words here and there to control the situation to make it so that she is right.

once again, i love my mom and am starting to learn how to live with her ways. sometimes, i just have to take her w/ a grain of salt. it's not always easy, but my father's support has definitely helped balanced things out.

also note, that as i dive in more about my parents, i am bringing into the light that my parents (mostly my mom) has a way of making me feel 'small' and never living up to their expectations. it's not that they emotionally abused me, but i wasn't brought up in an environment where i should pride my own self-respect and self-confidence. and my parents, similarily, were brought up the same way.

so here's another example in which one that has been abused, went into the relationship already a little... lost.

i do not blame my parents anymore. sure, sometimes i may rant about them, but all in all, i've come to realize that if i keep on blaming some one else, i'll never get better myself. it's best to take the issues into my own hands and try to face the music... which means letting go of that victim role.

This is perhaps what alot of Asian women suffer from; a perception that they are submissive, need to be dominated and are not outspoken, which attracts unsavoury men just looking for some "piece of meat"; they hide it under the pretext of being 'interested' in Asian culture

:D i don't know about that, Mr. Z. i'm far from the submissive type. even back then... it was even more of surprise as to why i found myself in an abusive relationship. once again, i'd like to voice my oppinion not to over-generalize asian women who get abused because they are suppose to be submissive. times are changing... as are women (not just asian women). abuse happens... regardless of race of either partner.

and yes, that's not to downplay the problem of the submissive asian female stereotype. such stereotypes are obviously self-destructive. but from where i stand, it can also be destructive to be overly focused on such a 'variable'. it creates assumptions and what i see as another 'sub-stereotype' of women who are abused and who happen to be asian. and sometimes, what you get is this effect where they feel ashamed that they 'might' have been too submissive. and if they start to blame themselves, especially at that point, then it's even harder for them to find the strength to leave these men.

Perhaps they never really had much self-respect to begin with? Some women are head-strong and they do not go back to the same people after thet have been abused. Interestingly, did you know that abused women sometimes saty with their husbands for up to 10 years before even leaving?

possibly... many factors can come into play. mine was the upbringing i had. others... peer pressure? environment? and so much more...

Some women just can't live without relationships; I think age has to do with it as well.

most people can't live w/ relationships. either it be friendships or romantic partners... lets get to the bottom of this reality here... if we didn't need interpersonal relationships in our lives, we as humans would not have cultivated such thing as a society. there are only a handfull of people out there who can live isolated up in the mountains or woods w/ very little human contact.

I know LL_Cool_D said it but I think what he has to say lacks empathy. In saying this, I think he does have a good point in saying that it's not so hard for women to go to a womans shelter or call the police; they can take out resraining orders and whatnot; I'm sure the law favours women in many respects (and so it should) when domestic abuse is in question. Of course, like etcj stated in a previous thread there are many variables at work here. All I'm saying is that if such women looked for outside help they would have gotten it.
The woman could have said "look, enough is enough I'm getting out of this place right now; screw you I don't need you; I've got more self-respect for myself now that I'm leaving you". See what I mean? It's all in the mind

first of all, i don't want to drag LL_Cool_D into this. he apologized for what he said and i am giving him the benefit of the doubt that he didn't mean for what he said to come out that way. plus, he hasn't come back to try re-instate what he said but had moved beyond that and continued what i felt was a pretty good discussion.

what i said was more of a general explanation of why i wince at such a reaction. regardless of the intent of such a reaction... because some people don't realize why it can hurt. or to the point... don't have the experience needed to realize it.

you are right that help is definitely out there... but i know a lot of women who had a hard time getting a restraining order... or for getting the law to be on their side. it's the system.. it's not always easy to work with. trust me. you need a lot of proof and preserverance to get the law to work on your side.

not to draw too much parallel because alcoholism is a completely different situatuion and is even categorized as a desease which this isn't... but look at all those that have a drinking problem? it's so easy for us to say... why the hell won't they just get help? there's like... AA's everywhere!

HALF THE BATTLE is seeking that help. what we're trying to focus on here is how to support these women in getting help. and i believe i've done a pretty good bang-up job explaining, some from a personal view, of why it's so hard for women to get out of that vicious cycle/pattern.

i felt that i have had a good discussion with you and i ask you not to continue any sort of debate about 'how easy it really is' for these women to get help. it's been covered... please read SWK's post on that regard. thanks.

i leave you with only one question to ponder on your own... by saying, "All I'm saying is that if such women looked for outside help they would have gotten it" are you then admitting that you feel that these women are to be blamed? that they are in the wrong then? surely you can see how one might decipher that you accusing them for their situation.. in which case, for some one who's lost, broken and feeling no self-respect... surely you must see how a statement like that will never give them the strength they need to seek such outside help which is so available, as you have stated... please think about that. thanks again.

[shy]

So are you saying that your inaction led to your boyfirned at the
time thinking that he could do more? What did you mean by subconsciously? I
don't think you're a wild girl or someone who would actively go for these type
of guys. You strike me as an intelligent youn woman.

honestly... looking back, i think i made the best decisions i could considering
the information that i had. i suppose the only subconcious thing was that due
to my upbringing, i was in greater denial at the beginning (during some of the
first weird quirks that he had - not abusive yet though) i didn't see the
signs. nor were they reconizable for me at the time.

sometimes, even intelligent women get confused when it comes to the affairs of
the heart.

I think you have hit the nail right on the head; I think
Artsyfartsyjanet suffered from the same thing; maybe subconsciously alot of
Asian women feel like going against their parents by doing things their parent
don't wont them to do. Thus, there is the "shock-value" in such decisions ie.,
of dating someone outside of your race (quite a few white women do this when
they date black guys; their daddies would get the shock of their lives).


maybe... maybe not. it really depends on the situation and the person in the
situation. i think for me and artsyfartsyjanet, neither of us had any
subconcious, alterior motives that were meant as rebellion against our parents.
sure, me trying a cigerette or a little drinking experience was rebellion, but
when it came to going out with that guy, i really didn't pick him because i
thought my parents would be 'against' my choice. plus i didn't break any rules.
it was around the time that i got accepted to university that i started
something with him... that was the rule in my household.. get into university
first, then win a bit of freedom. :)

Well, at least agree with me that the stereotype is there of Asian women
being submissive and need dominating then? If you disagree just look at the
media images of Asian women - dragon ladies, submissive and not outspoken like
their Western counterparts; need saving by the white man - etc. Thus, is it so
hard to accept that Asian women have the unfortune of attracting unsavoury
White/non-Asian men? The media is after all a very tool for social conditioning.


i do agree with you about the stereotypes. i'm merely suggesting that people be
more carefull of how they decipher such stereotypes with such situations. in
other words, lets not jump the gun and think that the reason this asian woman
is being abused by her boyfriends is due to her pressure of having to portray
the submissive role.

it IS something i do hear a lot of and as some one who went through an abusive
relationship and have helped/listened to others (in this situation, other asian
women), i can guarantee you that most of the times... it had nothing to do w/
the stereotype we speak of.

it's okay to say that the stereotype does exist... but it's not okay to assume
that the abusive situation is related to the stereotype. not without a lot of
investigation and questions (and lots of listening) from these women first, at
least.

Sometimes the systems sucks, but I hope you don't use the excuse of the system failing to justify why women don't go out there to get help. Besides, I thought that if you're talking about physical abuse then there should be no
problem - you can show your bruises and whatnot; however, I'm agreeing with you on proving emotional abuse.

usually along w/ physical abuse, there is a greater amount of emotional abuse.
this emotional abuse is what makes the women somewhat 'handicapped' in seeking help. and there is also a great about of shame... a lot of women feel ashamed to get help... even after a bad beating. deep down inside, they know what happened to them is wrong. but they can't bring themselves in getting help.

so my point is that even though such help is readily available, making the
first steps to get it is extremely hard. i'm not justifying anything. i'm merely trying to illustrate the reality of it. from what i get from you, i think you are still stuck on this idea that it's easier then it is... that women who don't seek help is somewhat at fault w/ what is going on with them. well, i'm sorry... but that attitude is quite useless when it comes to resolving such problems. trust me... you can complain about why these women don't reach out until you're blue in the face. in the end, your complaint/attitude won't help. so what good is it? sorry for sounding harsh, but i'm trying to crack down at the problem of such attitudes... and how all they are in the end is 'i just want to prove that i'm right about something.' so what if people w/ such attitudes are right? good for them... it's not a solution to the problem at all. it's still, in the end, just another bonus point to their ego. yes, i'm getting into some deep philosophical thinking into this. but it's over ten years of reflecting not just my experience but that of others.

look, i know it sounds simple to some people.... i know that yes, logically what you say is correct... but the reality is that it is extremely hard. i don't know
how much more or what other ways i can stress that to you and others. i can
only ask that you just trust me on this.

until you experience what it is like to be in such a situation where you feel
like a prisoner in your relationship, it is very hard to fully explain to some
one what it is like.

I'm in no way denying that women would simply find it easy to walk out
of the door and never come back. However, with help from their family and
friends why would it be so difficult? If their children, or even their life is
at stake, what is there to be hesitant or reluctant about?

once again, you are forgetting the psychological damage that these women
have... imagine the cycle of abuse as some sort of drug that sort of paralysis
their strength and reason... imagine a lab rat that's been electricuted so many
times, that she finds herself no where to run but just to shake and coward in
the corner of the cage. not to compare a woman to a rat, but i'm just trying to
illustrate the picture here.

Perhaps I should have clarified: I said that phrase when I was speaking
to you. If I was a counselor and speaking to an abused woman I would not use
that; I think I would have been better phrased; I would have stated, "your
husband has given you enough grief; why not leave him for your own emotional
welfare as well as for your children (if they had it)? You never know, where
his dominance will take him; he may end up beating you and even killing you; do
you want that?; leave while you still have the time"

the councelor usually has the right to state right off the bat that what the
husband is doing is wrong... but it usually takes more then one session to
convince her that she has to leave. usually, the woman feels like she is
trapped (that is what he makes her believe). and the woman feels she doesn't
have the skill/tools to leave. counceling/therapy will help her find those
skills.

councelors/therapists really need to be patient. if it were that easy, people would never need more then one counceling session... counceling is part of the long process of healing.

no one gets the successfull help that they need after just one visit.

[>:^|]

If I was a counselor and speaking to an abused woman I would not use that; I think I would have been better phrased; I would have stated, "your husband has given you enough grief; why not leave him for your own emotional welfare as well as for your children (if they had it)? You never know, where his dominance will take him; he may end up beating you and even killing you; do you want that?; leave while you still have the time"


And if you take responsibility for telling your client what to do, then what?
And if you increase your client's guilt and shame and she commits suicide, then what?
And if your client does leave and then her abusive partner kills her, then what?
And if your client has no where to go, then what?
And if your client's partner threatens to kill the children, then what?
And if your client doesn't speak English and you are unable to set her up with social service assistance in her language, then what?

Been there, seen that.

[shy]

And if you take responsibility for telling your client what to do, then what?
And if you increase your client's guilt and shame and she commits suicide, then what?
And if your client does leave and then her abusive partner kills her, then what?
And if your client has no where to go, then what?
And if your client's partner threatens to kill the children, then what?
And if your client doesn't speak English and you are unable to set her up with social service assistance in her language, then what?

Been there, seen that.

those are good points... i think people think that councelors/therapists are like lifeguards. they just dive right in and bring the drowning victim back to the safe shore...

unforunately, it's not that easy when it comes to psychological healing. counseling should be seen as support and guidance. all those who have had successfull healing are those that got good counceling over a lengthy period of time.

there are no quick fixes with counceling. nor should there be. pop-psychology has a high percentage of regressing back to the old state.

[shy]

That's what all women who have been abused say. They think that they can change their boyfriends attitude w/o actually thinking about the consequences of staying with their boyfriend.

umm.. i never said that i was trying to change my boyfriend's attitude. i've come to realize that you have this habit of putting words into other people's mouth. and it's a little insulting since i've been patient and kind enough to open up while really, trying to be incredibly honest to you.

It's easy stating that there were no ulterior motives, especially coming from the subject itself. Sometimes, a little bit of objectivity is needed.

as i stated, i gave you my most honest answer to my situation. if you still doubt me then you are calling me a liar. i have been through enough therapy to learn how to tell the truth about my situation. i think it's pretty immature to not give me the benefit of the doubt here.

Why not jump the gun? If the information and facts surrounding the circumstances are there, I think people with a good jusge of character can decipher what is going on.

well... until you have actually been around counceling, like i have, it's difficult for me to try and explain to you why assumptions and judgement can do more damage then good.

How do you know? Unsavoury men can turn out real nasty when it comes down to it.

in the end, what does it matter? all that matters is helping these women get of their relationship. whether it's due to stereotypes or not, the end result is that they get out of their situation and begin the road to healing.

besides... i've known asian women to be abused by asian men AND non-asian men.

I think you underestimate the power of asiaphilia.

first of all... i have been a victim to asiaphilia... so please do not assume that i don't know what that's like.

secondly, and most importantly, my objective here isn't to discuss asianphilia. my objective here was at first, to answer LL_Cool_D's questions. and if any of my past experiences can help those who are being abused and those know people getting abused, even if can reach out to one person, then i've reached another one of my milestones.

as for your last reply, i'm a little insulted. it sounds like you just want to be proven right about your judgement about me and others that have been abused... so you can categorize us of being victims to certain stereotypes and what-not... or that we wanted to displease our parents... etc.

i think i have been pretty kind and patient. and very honest. i think this should be the end of this dicussion. and possibly this thread.

good day.

[shy]

I know it's very diffcult to envisage your circumstances. Look, all it can take is just a matter of positive mental thought that is all. I refuse to belive that an abusive husband can take the last ounce of dignity from a woman. I refuse...

you still aren't thinking at the level that i am... i never said that these men take away a woman's dignity. i believe that we all have that dignity and strength in us even at the worst of times... but sometimes, due to circumstances, our judgement is clouded and we forget what we're made of.

I'm not denying these women suffer from psychological damage, although I'm simply disagreeing on HOW MUCH damage could be done to them.

that's a pretty confident answer coming from some one who isn't a woman nor been in such a situation. once more, it would be nice that you respect SWK's wishes and just give us the benefit of the doubt. please... we're not trying to say 'pity' us... we're just trying to be completely honest here.

if you don't believe there's that much damage, perhaps it's because you are comparing yourself to them subconsciously and you assume everyone to be as strong as you, if you really are that strong. well... no one's the same in comparison to each other. we all have our strengths and weaknesses.

I agree with you on this, but if women are fooled into believing that they are trapped then counselor alike will be in trouble.

all i can say is... that is so not true. and once again, you are using your own logic w/ out counseling experience to formulate your own theories... which is a dangerous thing.

Yes, but they should see the sense that what simple logic and reasoning for their benefit will entail.

and once again, you are trying to make such a thing sound way easier then it really is... and you expect quick fixes.

i think we can conclude that you continue to believe in what you believe. all i know is that my way of thinking around this situation has helped enough people including myself, for the last 10 years (yes, i was a peer counselor in sexual education which also focused on relationship abuse).

at least i've been in the field... and i know that my way of thinking and my attitude has been successfull.

good day.

[>:^|]

that's a pretty confident answer coming from some one who isn't a woman nor been in such a situation.

Yeah, it's basically a simplistic answer to something that I suspect somebody knows nothing about. It also blames the victim. Go work in DV for a while and find out that the answers are never simple. By the way, men are often the victim of abusive relationships as well.

shy, thanks for speaking so candidly. I'm sure there are some who are listening.

[shy]

Yeah, it's basically a simplistic answer to something that I suspect somebody knows nothing about. It also blames the victim. Go work in DV for a while and find out that the answers are never simple. By the way, men are often the victim of abusive relationships as well.

shy, thanks for speaking so candidly. I'm sure there are some who are listening.

thanks for your support! and yes, it's good to point out that men have also been victims of abusive relationships, whether it by physical, emotional or both.

my pleasure to have been able to share some of my experience. i hope it helps others, or at least opens some ideas for others when dealing with such a situation.