Caucasian Club founder decides to leave school

[SunWuKong]

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/10/21/BAGA12FSKT1.DTL

Caucasian Club founder decides to leave school
Oakley freshman decides to transfer, cites harassment

Jose Antonio Vargas, Chronicle Staff Writer
Tuesday, October 21, 2003

It's 11:40 a.m., the middle of lunch break at the only high school in Oakley, and freshman Lisa McClelland is at home.

The 15-year-old says she's not going back to Freedom High School.

Her push to start a Caucasian Club at her predominately white school -- in predominately white Oakley, population 25,000 -- has made national headlines, causing harassment, she said, from fellow students. She hasn't been at school in nearly two weeks and doesn't plan to come back. With her parents' consent, she has decided to transfer to La Paloma, a continuation high school in nearby Brentwood.

"Some people would say words like 'racist' when they see me," said Lisa, noting that a group of boys, standing too far for her to recognize, called her that word. "Some people would give me a look. Some people would whisper something. "

The news got to Eric Volta, principal at Freedom High, but it first got to the local press. Volta said he took appropriate actions and dealt with two specific incidents that McClelland reported, one involving the group of boys, the other involving an acquaintance of McClelland's.

Her problems began in late August with a petition on a piece of binder paper, the words "Caucasian/White Club" printed on top. Lisa passed it around her classes, and, three weeks later, collected more than 300 signatures from classmates and town residents.

There's a Black Student Union for African Americans, a Latinos Unidos for Latin Americans, and an ALOHA Club for Asian Americans at Freedom High -- as is the case in most, if not all, Bay Area high schools. So, Lisa wondered, why not a Caucasian Club?

She had planned for the club to be open to everyone, "a kind of comfortable place," she said in an interview late last month, where students of all backgrounds could talk about race -- with an emphasis on European history -- and how her "whiteness" affects those who aren't white.

The club would go to museums, have fund-raisers, invite speakers.

To McClelland, who is of Scottish, German, American Indian, Latino and Irish descent, the racial tensions of the past, she has said, "belong in the past."

Her vision of the club, however, was not shared by all. The East County chapter of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People said it vehemently opposed the name of the club, calling it culturally insensitive. Fox News Channel, CNN and BBC followed up with coverage.

Her proposed Caucasian Club was -- and still is -- the talk of the town in quiet Oakley, on the edge of Contra Costa County, 55 miles east of San Francisco.

"I advised her to stick it out," said Candise Kremin, whose son, Clint, the president of Freedom High's Gay Straight Alliance, is a close friend of Lisa's. The alliance was the only club she joined.

"Most people around here don't have a problem with a Caucasian Club - it's about time, right? -- though maybe some of them won't publicly admit it, " said Kremin, 40, who said she is Italian, German, Native American and Irish, and has lived in Oakley since 1989. "We live in a politically correct world. We're stuck, stuck in the racial world of the 1960s and 70s. What Lisa is trying to do is get past that."

Fifteen-year-old Michelle Wong agrees.

"How are we ever going to get beyond racism if we don't allow everyone to have their say?" asked Wong, a junior at Raoul Wallenberg Traditional High School in San Francisco, who is familiar with McClelland's story.

Raoul Wallenberg, Wong said, is "over 50 percent Asian," with clubs for Japanese Americans, Chinese Americans and Asian Americans.'' There is racial tension even among the Asian students, Wong said.

It's only fair, she said, that whites have their own clubs, too. "She's not doing this to be racist," added Wong. "She's doing it because it makes sense."

Pedro Noguera, a sociologist at New York University's Steinhardt School of Education specializing on issues of diversity and race, sympathizes with Lisa -- "at least to an extent," he said.

"On one level, it is understandable that when white students see other students celebrating their cultures and participating in activities that recognize their backgrounds, like Cinco de Mayo or the Chinese New Year's Parade, those students might feel some degree of resentment. They wonder if they, too, have an ethnicity," Noguera said. "But almost everything else, though it's not named as a celebration of white people and white culture, is just that. Most of U.S. history glorifies the experience of individuals and groups of people who are white. That is the norm."

But McClelland doesn't see it that way, especially not in her native Bay Area where ethnic clubs and events are the norm, she has said. While she has not completely given up on the idea of the Caucasian Club, she has given up on Freedom High School.

"It's been overwhelming,'' she said, as she hung up the phone.

[SunWuKong]

i think it's dumb that the NAACP thinks the name of her club is "culturally insensitive".

[nonamerasian]

It's that local chapter of the NAACP, I'm not sure if it's the whole NAACP. They said it is because of some problems in the community, or something like that, on which they are basing their postion.

If I were in her school, I'd definately help her out. At first I wasn't too sure because I thought her main motive was to stick her tongue out at other clubs (lame), but reading more about her, I think her heart is in the right place.

In one article it says that she's gotten an invitation to join the KKK because some members were proud that she is doing something to presumingly aid in the advancement of White people, or something along those lines.

That's messed up.

I don't think she should leave the school. If she really believes she is doing the right thing, she shouldn't give in so soon.

[deez nuts]

jesus christ don't the folks at the NAACP have better things to do than nitpick on some 15 year old high school student. buncha sensitive whiny little pussies.

i think her idea was a great idea. her intentions were innocuous.

[Chris]

I'm sorry she should have that right to form that club. NAACP should not have step in. That club was open to everyone. It was a ruckus over nothing.

[kimpossible]

It's not like she was creating a white power club.

[John0101]

I totally agree, instead of forming a "White/Cuasaian" Club would she still gotten it if she called it the European Diversity and History Club?

[BeTheReds]

She could have easily gotten out of any problems had she done what they did in my school. They made the Celtic Club with activities such as having barbecues and going to movies and ice skating and the same bullshit all the other clubs did.

[coagulated fat]

This seems like one of those instances where white liberals get all riled up and cry racism because they don't know how else to react. I don't know what's up with the NAACP chapter, but I would expect that most minorities would be supportive of her.

[kitty]

they already have a forum for talking about european history. They call it high school history class.

[kimpossible]

But isn't equally important for caucasians to be able to gather to talk about their histories specifically in regard to their identities? If they're stuck with the American notion of they're white only and have no ancestral identity or 'color' I think that's unfair. High school history class isn't a good forum for students to examine their individual histories and associated ancestral identity.

I think that's why you get the 'whites' who like to glom onto other cultures in hopes of coming into an identity that is older and more concrete than just white American. I had a native prof that would flunk the kids in the cultural classes if they identified as white or American. They had to punch down into their ancestral ties and break the notion that they were plain and without culture.

Having said that, I did understand your reference. The minority students have to usually form clubs to get the representation they don't get in the general curriculum.

[hapakristina]

they already have a forum for talking about european history. They call it high school history class.

most clubs in high school aren't merely for the point of discussing history or anything. many get together for socializing and events together. if that was the case, then there shouldn't be ethnic clubs of any kind because many ethnic backgrounds and cultural history is gone over in history class. i don't see any problem with the formation of her club. i don't see how "caucasian" is racist or offensive. i would maybe understand if they had called it the "white club" or better yet.. "the kkk club" or "the skinhead club".. but c'mon. caucasian is now offensive?

secondly, they mentioned that they have an ALOHA club for asians. i hope that ALOHA is an acronym for something, because some people of hawaiian descent could find the name ALOHA offensive being used for asians. hawai'i's culture and language is totally separate to that of asians.. and while there are many asians living in hawai'i.. it could be deemed by some of hawaiian descent to be offensive for a club to call themselves that. just call it asian-american club or something.

anyhow, i was talking about the formation of clubs for people of caucasian/european descent and i don't see anything wrong with it. it's not racist for the formation of such a club. i don't see anything wrong with those individuals forming a club as just because caucasians may be the majority in this country doesn't mean that there should be a double standard held against them. if people of other ethnic backgrounds are given the opportunity to come together and socialize and hang out and hold meetings.. why shouldn't people of european background? not all people are going to join, but shit.. most clubs are advised by some faculty or staff and all clubs are held to certain rules and regulations. it's not like they're starting anything for the sake of spurring on racism towards minorities.

get over it people. :rolleyes:

[myself808]

a caucasian club is a bad idea to begin with, it wasn't even done to make a political statement, yet look at how politicized its become. I have every right to paint my body orange and strap a bunch of bananas to my head but that doesn't mean its a good idea to do that.

[hapakristina]

a caucasian club is a bad idea to begin with, it wasn't even done to make a political statement, yet look at how politicized its become. I have every right to paint my body orange and strap a bunch of bananas to my head but that doesn't mean its a good idea to do that.

then we should just do away with ethnic clubs of all kinds then. it only promotes the segregation of people by racial and cultural backgrounds. i don't think there should be a double standard about what's okay for one group of people over another, particularly based on race.

[BeTheReds]

then we should just do away with ethnic clubs of all kinds then. it only promotes the segregation of people by racial and cultural backgrounds. i don't think there should be a double standard about what's okay for one group of people over another, particularly based on race.


HERE HERE!!!!

What is it that divides and segregates college campuses nationwide? Racism? The fraternity system? Lack of cross cultural understanding? I say NO.

The answer is the Asian Student Union, Black Student Union, Jewish Student Union, etc etc..

At least at the University of MD I found this to be the case.

[achtungbaby]

it only promotes the segregation of people by racial and cultural backgrounds. i don't think there should be a double standard about what's okay for one group of people over another, particularly based on race.It also promotes racial and ethnic empowerment for peoples who have been systematically discriminated against in the United States. In the past, overt racism and separation were accepted as standards by whites; today, many whites have tried to the argument upside-down, essentially saying, "Well, if we can't group amongst one another and shut people out, no one should."

[achtungbaby]

HERE HERE!!!!

What is it that divides and segregates college campuses nationwide? Racism? The fraternity system? Lack of cross cultural understanding? I say NO.

The answer is the Asian Student Union, Black Student Union, Jewish Student Union, etc etc..

At least at the University of MD I found this to be the case.Yes BTR, it's the Asian Student Union that is today continuing to perpetrate decades of oppression by white people.

[Tao]

don't white people already have a "caucasian club" ? I thought it was called italian heritage, greek national, french cooking clubs? I mean sure they don't call it white people clubs, but that's essentially what it is.

[achtungbaby]

To add: there's nothing wrong with white kids trying to get back to their roots. More power to 'em. They should just know, however, that they shouldn't be surprised that some will get their panties in a bunch of it. Brown v. Board of Education didn't just happen yesterday after all.

[achtungbaby]

don't white people already have a "caucasian club" ? I thought it was called italian heritage, greek national, french cooking clubs? I mean sure they don't call it white people clubs, but that's essentially what it is.That's probably true in a practical sense, but I think when you argue from a perspective that advocates racial and ethnic empowerment, you have to inclusive about that empowerment, I think.

[hapakristina]

It also promotes racial and ethnic empowerment for peoples who have been systematically discriminated against in the United States. In the past, overt racism and separation were accepted as standards by whites; today, many whites have tried to the argument upside-down, essentially saying, "Well, if we can't group amongst one another and shut people out, no one should."

whites may have some advantages over others in this country.. i won't deny that. but you don't think that whites are socially discriminated against and go through racism from minority groups? i don't ever approve of racism or disregard towards and/or against the majority simply because they're the majority. if people of other ethnic clubs are allowed to come together for the reasons that many of them do, european-americans/caucasians should be able to do the same.

also, i've joined japanese club and asian american association and hapas UCLA and i never once felt a "sense of empowerment." it was simply for the experience of being able to meet new people, providing myself a social outlet, and being able to share common experiences. those are all things that a caucasian club could offer to people not of a minority background. if ethnic clubs are formed together for a sense of "empowerment".. then really, i see the formation of them a lot worse than the reasons for caucasians wanting to form a club.

[deez nuts]

i think to put it into perspective, you have to understand this is coming from the mind of a 15 year old girl. i don't think she realizes the ramifications, reprecussions and backlash of her action.

[kimpossible]

To add: there's nothing wrong with white kids trying to get back to their roots. More power to 'em. They should just know, however, that they shouldn't be surprised that some will get their panties in a bunch of it. Brown v. Board of Education didn't just happen yesterday after all.

But I don't think the 15 year old student's intentions were insidious, I think she simply wanted a club modeled after the other ethnic clubs that she could belong to that addressed her heritage. It's seems ridiculously overkill that the student was basically run out of town over it. Certainly, she could have been redirected by a school official who could have anticipated the panty bunchers, making it a European club or some such. Something that wouldn't so quickly get the attention and approval of white supremacist groups.

Maybe it should have been more like an Italian club or French club to avoid political scrutiny. She made a mistake and learned that she can't have something called a Caucasian club. I think the reaction to her personally is a bit harsh and overall I think it's unfair that her efforts to organize a culture based club (from her perspective) were demonized based on historical context, not her personal or academic intent.

[hapakristina]

i think to put it into perspective, you have to understand this is coming from the mind of a 15 year old girl. i don't think she realizes the ramifications, reprecussions and backlash of her action.

you're probably right, but it's something that's been discussed among college students and many adults. there are a lot of ramifications and backlash that will result from her actions. maybe she expected it but not to the extent that she received.. either way, i commend her for her efforts and personally see absolutely nothing wrong with the existence of a caucasian club. if you're going to exclude one, exclude them all.

[achtungbaby]

whites may have some advantages over others in this country...i won't deny that. but you don't think that whites are socially discriminated against and go through racism from minority groups?

First of all, I wouldn't call it discrimination. That's a term I usually reserve to describe systematic practices of inequality or injustice, not the acts of some or even a few who lack the social power to enforce their prejudices. Secondly, can you describe this intolerance you feel white people have to suffer?

i don't ever approve of racism or disregard towards and/or against the majority simply because they're the majority. if people of other ethnic clubs are allowed to come together for the reasons that many of them do, european-americans/caucasians should be able to do the same.I don't think I agree with your reasoning. I don't approve of racism against whites simply because they're the majority, but I also don't think we're at a place yet where whites should belittle the struggles of minorities by taking on their tools of empowerment for their own. Most ethnic groups don't gather together just to combat white oppression, but even if they did -- even if different Asian ethnicities wanted to band together to form an Asian America to ensure their voice was heard -- that would still be more justified than a group in the majority doing the same.

also, i've joined japanese club and asian american association and hapas UCLA and i never once felt a "sense of empowerment." it was simply for the experience of being able to meet new people, providing myself a social outlet, and being able to share common experiences.I'm not going to justify many of the groups you're referring to. Most of the ones do get together to screw around under the banner of activism. I also think, though, that you should consider the possibility that your personal experience -- and BTR's -- might be different from other Asians who never felt accepted.

For most of my life until high school, I was as white as they come (some people here still say I sound like a white guy). It wasn't until I started attending a church that was predominately Asian, specifically Korean, that I started hanging around groups of Asians. And of course, we didn't talk about yellow power or Asian activism there -- if anything, most of the kids there were white-washed conservative Asians. But the experience began what for me was the process of self-identification. And this doesn't just happen over night. It's not measurable.

[achtungbaby]

Moving to Rant.

[BeTheReds]

Yes BTR, it's the Asian Student Union that is today continuing to perpetrate decades of oppression by white people.


Absolutly not. I wasn't adressing the perpetuation of decades of oppression. I was adressing the voluntarily socially segregated nature of the University of Maryland. Clubs like these are in a sense barriers which make it more difficult to interact with people of different ethnicities in your daily life. If you want to surround yourself with people of your race only, then that's perfectly okay, but I don't see why the school should sponsor that. Maybe in other schools the ethnic organizations are better, but in my experience the organization's main focus was to seperate and exclude everyone different, in the name of diversity.

[kimpossible]

the organization's main focus was to seperate and exclude everyone different, in the name of diversity.

i just like the way you put this. almost made me spit out my yogurt when i chuckled.

[hapakristina]

First of all, I wouldn't call it discrimination. That's a term I usually reserve to describe systematic practices of inequality or injustice, not the acts of some or even a few who lack the social power to enforce their prejudices. Secondly, can you describe this intolerance you feel white people have to suffer?

so a white man walking into a black neighborhood isn't discriminated against? there are many instances where whites are discriminated against, despite their being the majority. heck, seeing whites being refused to colleges who had the merit and the stats to back up their deserving to go to that college.. but that college having to accept a less qualified student based on race is enough to provide evidence of some "discrimination" against whites.

i've seen numerous times black people label whites racist simply because there was a run-in. playing the race card, is what i call it. some girl claimed that she was mistreated because she was black and my point to her was that how did she know unless there was an exchange of words. she didn't, but yet she assumes that anything that happens to her coming from a white person means they're being racist. i disagree and i have seen others do this too, not just blacks. it never comes down to people just being shitty people. it comes down to people automatically having a predisposition towards the majority because they feel that they're discriminated against or treated less than them. look at how many white men and women are treated by minority groups when it comes to interracial relationships? that's not a form of discrimination? they're treated as less human beings for being white.

i'm not saying that we should feel pity for white people because .. they're just oooooh so discriminated against. what i'm saying is that i don't feel that there should be a double standard simply because they're white. people scream for the desire for equality and talk all about wanting to not be excluded.. then how and why are things justified doing these things against whites? i don't think they are.


I don't approve of racism against whites simply because they're the majority, but I also don't think we're at a place yet where whites should belittle the struggles of minorities by taking on their tools of empowerment for their own. Most ethnic groups don't gather together just to combat white oppression, but even if they did -- even if different Asian ethnicities wanted to band together to form an [I]Asian America to ensure their voice was heard -- that would still be more justified than a group in the majority doing the same.

1) please tell me how this girl's formation of a caucasian club was her belittling the struggles of minorities by taking on white's tools of empowerment for their own? please.. give me a break, dOod. she wanted to form a caucasian club for the same reasons that asians, blacks, hispanics, hawaiians, etc. form clubs in high schools. a form of a social outlet, reason for people to come together and have meetings, share experiences, etc. why should asians or any other ethnic group be allowed those privileges and not whites? and in this case, whites were still the majority at this school but my high school was 40% asian.. whites were the minority at my school as i'm sure they are in other neighborhoods and schools. should they not allow it then either?

2) i agree that most ethnic groups don't get together to combat white oppression. but conversely, i don't think that battling minority "oppression" or whatnot was the reasons for this girl's forming a caucasian club either. i don't think her reasons were malicious or racist in any way at all. again, ethnic clubs provide people of certain backgrounds to congregate together. why should a white person not be allowed that same opportunity? if that's the case, then minorities are being discriminatory against whites then for the same thing they claim to be "victims" of in society. i don't see how this works out.

i don't think she was trying to provide whites a "voice to be heard." she was trying to create a club where people of european could come together and celebrate parts of their culture as well. maybe they'd have italian dinner night or french food night or something. who knows, but why claim to be above them and their cultures and ethnic background simply because society's standards has whites above. not something they contributed to or control.

also, keep in mind.. i don't think the article said that the club never excluded non-caucasian members from joining. again, a group brought together for the very same purpose that many minority ethnic clubs are.


I'm not going to justify many of the groups you're referring to. Most of the ones do get together to screw around under the banner of activism. I also think, though, that you should consider the possibility that your personal experience -- and BTR's -- might be different from other Asians who never felt accepted.

okay, i don't mean to pull out a "victim card" myself here.. but hold up. you want to start talking about acceptance? do you think hapas are accepted in society? you think that hapas have a sense of identity all the time? many don't, simply because to asians they're white and to whites they're asian. i'm just saying that the formation of a caucasian club shouldn't have anything to do with asians feeling accepted or not. the formation wasn't to discriminate against asians or other minority groups.

yes, maybe those social experiences with ethnically based clubs have been my personal experiences and maye it is different from the perspective of an asian that never felt accepted.. but i think maybe you should try considering putting yourself in the shoes of a white individual. how would you feel if you could never feel a sense of pride for your heritage in this country because you're white.. and automatically, you'd be labeled racist. try putting yourself in the shoes of a white individual where you have to live with many people's predispositions against you because you're white. you get upset at someone and yell at them, but you're "racist" because they're ________. put yourselves in the shoes of a white individual always wondering if you really got that job or got into that school because you earned it and deserved it or if it was because of the color of your skin. or what's more.. put yourself in the shoes of a "white" person whose only label in society can be as such.. never really being able to call themselves french-american or german-american.. as most are so mixed and so far removed from the culture of their "native" countries that the only place they can call "home" is indeed america... a place where many do not always have a feeling of being "at home" because of minorities screaming at the inequalities and differences in status quo. something many, if not all, had no control of within their lifetime. think how you'd feel being a young white american in today's society blamed for the reprecussions of slavery, something you had nothing to do with. blamed for the reprecussions of japanese internment, something you had nothing to do with. blamed for the takeover of native american land and even hawai'i's aboriginal people.. again, something you had nothing to do with. if you don't think this happens, you're kidding yourself. i see it happen all the time.

i know some are sitting there thinking, "big fuckin' whoopdeedoo. boo hoo.. poor white person." but i'm just saying. everyone seems to think that whites have it "easy" in today's world and i have stepped back and seen many of the things they go through as well. i don't like the double standard and i think it's a bit ethnocentric of many people to sit there and make it out like they're the only ones that have to go through shit.

For most of my life until high school, I was as white as they come (some people here still say I sound like a white guy). It wasn't until I started attending a church that was predominately Asian, specifically Korean, that I started hanging around groups of Asians. And of course, we didn't talk about yellow power or Asian activism there -- if anything, most of the kids there were white-washed conservative Asians. But the experience began what for me was the process of self-identification. And this doesn't just happen over night. It's not measurable.

okay, my response is getting hella long (shuddap eugene! :p LOL!).. but i will say this, to each is their own in how they find their sense of self-identification and a sense of identity. it's like i've wanted to be a part of the asian community but my experiences around them proved to me that i couldn't be myself around them in order to be accepted. why would i want to be accepted by a group of people if it required me not to be myself? that makes no sense.

and no offense, but i honestly can't stand churches that are ethnically based, because to me that seems like a bit of a paradox in the teaching of certain religions. for example, my ex is korean and i went out to his korean church. i wasn't accepted whatsoever. i felt very uncomfortable and no one greeted me or made me feel welcome into their church. what would make me want to join their church and follow their faith? isn't that what church is supposed to be about? it is, but instead.. all of these ethnically based churches turn away so many potential followers and soon, it appears that their pride in their culture comes before their faith. what bullshit!

anyhow, that's a whole new can of worms.. but my point is that to each is their own in how they choose to identify themselves. you can be asian. korean. whatever you want to be. personally, i don't want to simply be identified as hapa or asian and white. i want to be identified as kristina. and i happened to be mixed. big deal.

if other ethnic groups are given the opportunities to do such things, everyone should. period.

[achtungbaby]

Absolutly not. I wasn't adressing the perpetuation of decades of oppression. I was adressing the voluntarily socially segregated nature of the University of Maryland. Clubs like these are in a sense barriers which make it more difficult to interact with people of different ethnicities in your daily life. If you want to surround yourself with people of your race only, then that's perfectly okay, but I don't see why the school should sponsor that. Maybe in other schools the ethnic organizations are better, but in my experience the organization's main focus was to seperate and exclude everyone different, in the name of diversity.Doesn't the chess club "exclude" and therefore "discriminate" against students who don't play chess? Doesn't the mere fact of their association based on common interests create a balkanized "us" versus "them" atmosphere?

[hapakristina]

Doesn't the chess club "exclude" and therefore "discriminate" against students who don't play chess? Doesn't the mere fact of their association based on common interests create a balkanized "us" versus "them" atmosphere?

exactly his point though. also, i don't think you can compare clubs formed together based on INTEREST. people have some relative control of what they choose to do and are interested in. people do not choose what racial/ethnic background they were born of.



on the one hand, people are approving the coming together of minorities because their reasons for congregating together are somehow "better" or jusfified over caucasian individuals wanting to do the same. again, double standards galore.


asian club = inherently excludes all non-asians

black/african-american club = inherently excludes all non-black individuals

hispanic/latino(a) club = inherently excludes all non-hispanic/latino clubs

etc..

etc..


not allowing people of caucasian descent the same opportunity = excludes every single person of white/european background


see the problem? if you're going to allow it one way, then allow for it ALL ways as to not discriminate against any particular group. otherwise, they need to kick the whole idea of ethnic clubs to the curb altogether.

[BeTheReds]

Doesn't the chess club "exclude" and therefore "discriminate" against students who don't play chess? Doesn't the mere fact of their association based on common interests create a balkanized "us" versus "them" atmosphere?


No. Chess club is for people who are interested in playing or learning about chess. It excludes no one, and as a former member of the chess club, playing the other 3 nerds in Chess club got really boring after a while. We needed more members. It wasn't about fighting against the video game oppression or crying about how backgammon players were forced out of pool halls following WW2. It was just a group of people that want to sit around in their free time and play chess.

An Asian club (at the university of Maryland for example) on the other hand attracts Asians and excludes non Asians. Sure there will be non-Asians in the club, but then they will be accused of being philes and never really accepted.

The difference being that anyone can become interested in chess, but not everyone can suddenly become Asian, or Asian enough.

[achtungbaby]

so a white man walking into a black neighborhood isn't discriminated against?How? Please explain to me what you mean by "discriminated against."

...but that college having to accept a less qualified student based on race is enough to provide evidence of some "discrimination" against whites.What you just described was the result of mechanism designed to prevent whites from continuing to enact racism and discrimination. Is (or was?) it a perfect system? Of course not. But it wasn't borne out of thin air or something; whites did this to themselves, did they not?

i've seen numerous times black people label whites racist simply because there was a run-in. playing the race card, is what i call it. some girl claimed that she was mistreated because she was black and my point to her was that how did she know unless there was an exchange of words. she didn't, but yet she assumes that anything that happens to her coming from a white person means they're being racist.Do you honestly believe that your personal experiences should amount to enough for you to say that: You can perceive one person's suffering, and though never having experienced it yourself, the fact that you can imagine it gives you the wisdom to see past beyond them?

it never comes down to people just being shitty people.But less shitty than the people who contribute to giving whites the slight advantage you mentioned earlier?

look at how many white men and women are treated by minority groups when it comes to interracial relationships? that's not a form of discrimination? they're treated as less human beings for being white.I agree. A lot of the anger that some Asians direct towards others in interracial relationships is misplaced.

...1) please tell me how this girl's formation of a caucasian club was her belittling the struggles of minorities by taking on white's tools of empowerment for their own?I never said that this girl's endeavor was that. Like I said before, if white people want to reclaim their heritage (the one that hasn't been about stomping on minorities throughout history), more power to 'em.

2) i agree that most ethnic groups don't get together to combat white oppression. but conversely, i don't think that battling minority "oppression" or whatnot was the reasons for this girl's forming a caucasian club either.Never said it was. You're misinterpreting my comments.

okay, i don't mean to pull out a "victim card" myself here.. but hold up. you want to start talking about acceptance? do you think hapas are accepted in society? you think that hapas have a sense of identity all the time? many don't, simply because to asians they're white and to whites they're asian.You're absolutely right. Perhaps in the grander scheme of things, hapas might still have a leg up in a white society, but in regards to identification and acceptance and community -- the sense of abandonment that many hapas feel from other Asians isn't some repudiation of ethnic empowerment or cultural identification. If anything, it just underscores the need for people to connect, that there is value in culture and identification.


i'm just saying that the formation of a caucasian club shouldn't have anything to do with asians feeling accepted or not. the formation wasn't to discriminate against asians or other minority groups.

try putting yourself in the shoes of a white individual where you have to live with many people's predispositions against you because you're white. you get upset at someone and yell at them, but you're "racist" because they're ________. put yourselves in the shoes of a white individual always wondering if you really got that job or got into that school because you earned it and deserved it or if it was because of the color of your skin. or what's more.. put yourself in the shoes of a "white" person whose only label in society can be as such.. never really being able to call themselves french-american or german-american.. as most are so mixed and so far removed from the culture of their "native" countries that the only place they can call "home" is indeed america... a place where many do not always have a feeling of being "at home" because of minorities screaming at the inequalities and differences in status quo. something many, if not all, had no control of within their lifetime. think how you'd feel being a young white american in today's society blamed for the reprecussions of slavery, something you had nothing to do with. blamed for the reprecussions of japanese internment, something you had nothing to do with. blamed for the takeover of native american land and even hawai'i's aboriginal people.. again, something you had nothing to do with. if you don't think this happens, you're kidding yourself. i see it happen all the time.I thought you covered this already:

i'm not saying that we should feel pity for white people because [insert sarcasm].. they're just oooooh so discriminated against.Cuz I dunno even know where to begin with a statement like that.

[achtungbaby]

exactly his point though. also, i don't think you can compare clubs formed together based on INTEREST. people have some relative control of what they choose to do and are interested in. people do not choose what racial/ethnic background they were born of.And for that very reason, clubs do not exclude on the basis of race.

[achtungbaby]

No. Chess club is for people who are interested in playing or learning about chess. It excludes no one, and as a former member of the chess club, playing the other 3 nerds in Chess club got really boring after a while. We needed more members. It wasn't about fighting against the video game oppression or crying about how backgammon players were forced out of pool halls following WW2. It was just a group of people that want to sit around in their free time and play chess.

An Asian club (at the university of Maryland for example) on the other hand attracts Asians and excludes non Asians. Sure there will be non-Asians in the club, but then they will be accused of being philes and never really accepted.

The difference being that anyone can become interested in chess, but not everyone can suddenly become Asian, or Asian enough.You guys are hilarious:)

[SunWuKong]

It also promotes racial and ethnic empowerment for peoples who have been systematically discriminated against in the United States. In the past, overt racism and separation were accepted as standards by whites; today, many whites have tried to the argument upside-down, essentially saying, "Well, if we can't group amongst one another and shut people out, no one should."

but this specific club was to be open membership for all.

[achtungbaby]

but this specific club was to be open membership for all.I don't think I ever said the club was racially exclusive.

[SunWuKong]

Absolutly not. I wasn't adressing the perpetuation of decades of oppression. I was adressing the voluntarily socially segregated nature of the University of Maryland. Clubs like these are in a sense barriers which make it more difficult to interact with people of different ethnicities in your daily life. If you want to surround yourself with people of your race only, then that's perfectly okay, but I don't see why the school should sponsor that. Maybe in other schools the ethnic organizations are better, but in my experience the organization's main focus was to seperate and exclude everyone different, in the name of diversity.

i agree to a certain degree. schools should not sponsor any clubs that exclude membership based on race or ethnicity. if a white dude wants to join a Chinese Heritage Club, he should be allowed to join.

[SunWuKong]

I don't think I ever said the club was racially exclusive.

you said:

today, many whites have tried to the argument upside-down, essentially saying, "Well, if we can't group amongst one another and shut people out, no one should."

i assumed you included this specific club in the article when you said that. and if you didn't mean to include it, then that statement you made doesn't apply to it at all.

[tommyhtown]

An Asian club (at the university of Maryland for example) on the other hand attracts Asians and excludes non Asians. Sure there will be non-Asians in the club, but then they will be accused of being philes and never really accepted.

The difference being that anyone can become interested in chess, but not everyone can suddenly become Asian, or Asian enough.

However, the reason that there is a need for ethnic-based or gender-based clubs is because of the very same reason when you were talking about whites in Asian clubs. There are clubs and organizations that would accept a token member but never really embrace that person. Or there are others that just plainly discriminates against minorities or women For example, Augusta National to this day never accepts women even though there is no written rule that would exclude them as members. Now, let's say that Augusta National is the only golf club in the area where would avid female golfers in Ausgusta, Georgia finds a place to socialize and talk about the game that they love. There are still golf clubs and organizations that appear to have open-door policy but inherently discriminate against women and minorities. That is one of the reasons why I think there is still a need for ethnic-based clubs. Although I would have to chuckle if I see an Asian Country&Western dance club even though there is nothing wrong w/ that. :)

[ChinaLama]

i agree to a certain degree. schools should not sponsor any clubs that exclude membership based on race or ethnicity. if a white dude wants to join a Chinese Heritage Club, he should be allowed to join.

what club do you know actually excludes anyone by race? we had some white people in an Asian American lit mag, I think; in fact, one of our contest winners may have been white. Then again Mosaic's not the most typical AA club, because the year after I left, I heard they were considering dropping the "Asian American" out of "the Asian American Literary Magazine."

[BeTheReds]

However, the reason that there is a need for ethnic-based or gender-based clubs is because of the very same reason when you were talking about whites in Asian clubs. There are clubs and organizations that would accept a token member but never really embrace that person.

Yea like what?

The Ski club? No.

The Chess club? No.

The animation club? Hells no.

What exactly are you talking about?

[SunWuKong]

how would you feel if you could never feel a sense of pride for your heritage in this country because you're white

well there's a difference here. i'm sure a lot of white Americans have no qualms about feeling proud of their American heritage. it's pride in white racial heritage that is taboo for them to have.

put yourselves in the shoes of a white individual always wondering if you really got that job or got into that school because you earned it and deserved it or if it was because of the color of your skin.

i think you got this one in reverse. this is how minorities and women feel, because of affirmative action.

never really being able to call themselves french-american or german-american

well, some white people do do this. especially Irish Americans and Italian Americans. hell, one of my best friends in high school was French American. he calls his grandparents me-mére and pe-pére. his grandparents and parents all speak French.

but i understand what you're saying and i agree that most white Americans don't have a sense of personal ethnicity.

and no offense, but i honestly can't stand churches that are ethnically based, because to me that seems like a bit of a paradox in the teaching of certain religions. for example, my ex is korean and i went out to his korean church. i wasn't accepted whatsoever. i felt very uncomfortable and no one greeted me or made me feel welcome into their church. what would make me want to join their church and follow their faith? isn't that what church is supposed to be about? it is, but instead.. all of these ethnically based churches turn away so many potential followers and soon, it appears that their pride in their culture comes before their faith. what bullshit!

maybe it was just that particular church. i used to think the same way as you, but understand that churches function as a center point of a community as much as it functions as a place of worship. seeing that many communities are ethnic-based, i think it's only natural for ethnic-based churches to exist. and remember, many ethnic churches consist of FOB members (... and their American born/raised kids), so cultural similarity is a very valid reason for their communities to exist.

[tommyhtown]

Yea like what?

The Ski club? No.

The Chess club? No.

The animation club? Hells no.

What exactly are you talking about?

you were talking about whites not being embraced in Asian clubs even though these clubs would take them as a members as one of the arguments for getting rid of all ethinc-based clubs. My counterpoint is that to this day there is a country club or a golf club that accepts a token minority. Because minorities and women don't feel as a part of that club that is why minorities and women create their own club. I see that as a reason for ethinc-based or gender-based clubs.

[BeTheReds]

You guys are hilarious:)

Who are "you guys".

I'm advocating the destruction of ethnic clubs at the University of Maryland altogether. I think that is entirely a different point from what hapakristina is talking about. I don't know her point, because what she wrote is a little too long for me to actually read.

I think I've pretty much totally explained my view on these ethnic clubs, and I'm not having this view because I feel sorry for white people who are not accepted. I have the view because to gather with members of your own race to celebrate diversity is hypocritical. There is no diversity on campus. Sure there are numerical statistics to show that people of different ethnicities are students, but the people of these different ethnicities don't interact at all. These ethnic clubs further set up the barrier, making it even harder for people to interact with each other unless they are the same race. It's self ghettofication.

On the other hand, if the club is based on interest, then i seriously doubt a white person in the chess club for instance would refuse to play against a black or asian opponent. Activism too. White feminists kick out a black woman from giving her vagina monologue.

So you may say, what if the "interest" is based on Asian-American political issues? Again, that only looks good on paper. We mods all know exactly what kind of people that particular interest attracts.

I totally understand your points that you are arguing about, but you have to admit, not everything that Asian Student Union did had something to do with advancing Asian American issues. I personally don't see how an Asian fashion show/dance party has anything to do with making people aware of Manzanaar or the problems with affirmative action or the model minority myth.

And in the end I don't even think it is a bad thing that these clubs form on their own. I don't see why my student activity money had to go to it though, especially if I was going to feel unwelcome after joining it. They don't need to be sponsored by the school.

[SunWuKong]

what club do you know actually excludes anyone by race? we had some white people in an Asian American lit mag, I think; in fact, one of our contest winners may have been white. Then again Mosaic's not the most typical AA club, because the year after I left, I heard they were considering dropping the "Asian American" out of "the Asian American Literary Magazine."

i don't personally know any, but BTR said he does.
hell, the Asian Student Association at my school even had a black officer. definitely not a mere token there.

[BeTheReds]

you were talking about whites not being embraced in Asian clubs even though these clubs would take them as a members as one of the arguments for getting rid of all ethinc-based clubs. My counterpoint is that to this day there is a country club or a golf club that accepts a token minority. Because minorities and women don't feel as a part of that club that is why minorities and women create their own club. I see that as a reason for ethinc-based or gender-based clubs.


I'm talking about a state funded school using students' tuition dollars (student activity fee) and government funds to support a club that promotes seperation and exclusion.

You're talking about a private country club that is totally not funded by the government excluding people based on the will of the members of that club. It's completly different. I'm not defending the country club when I say this, because I think it is despicable that people would do such a thing.

In addition there are several asian organizations out there that don't strike me as welcoming towards whites, (Korean Churches for instance) and there isnt anything wrong with that.. just as long as they are not funded by the government.

[nonamerasian]

but i understand what you're saying and i agree that most white Americans don't have a sense of personal ethnicity.

I cannot agree in the least. Actually most Whites I know will not hesitate to say their ethnic background. Some don't even know where to find their ancestors' homeland on a map, but they'd gladly say that they are that whatever ethnicity.

A handful will not, but would rather say, "I'm American," however I find that an overwhelming majority do have a sense of their ethncity or ethnicities other than American.

This is even something joked about by some people in other countries.

[BeTheReds]

i don't personally know any, but BTR said he does.
hell, the Asian Student Association at my school even had a black officer. definitely not a mere token there.

Again, I am only talking about my own experiences at the University of Maryland.

[SunWuKong]

I think I've pretty much totally explained my view on these ethnic clubs, and I'm not having this view because I feel sorry for white people who are not accepted. I have the view because to gather with members of your own race to celebrate diversity is hypocritical. There is no diversity on campus. Sure there are numerical statistics to show that people of different ethnicities are students, but the people of these different ethnicities don't interact at all. These ethnic clubs further set up the barrier, making it even harder for people to interact with each other unless they are the same race. It's self ghettofication.

well hold on there, how can there be diversity if the society we live in is homogeneous? it's precisely because we're different that diversity exists. i think these clubs are supposed to reinforce minorities' sense of self-identification when they live in a society that is mostly white.

however, i do understand that many members of these clubs don't exactly need any further reinforcement on their sense of identity, and that they just get together to party - much like they'd do anyway even if the club didn't exist.

[AngryABCGirl]

I'm talking about a state funded school using students' tuition dollars (student activity fee) and government funds to support a club that promotes seperation and exclusion.



State universities exist to serve the needs and wants of the students, and students do want ethnic and/or religious clubs to serve their interests. I could argue that the university should not fund certain sports because I inherently don't have the ability to be in that sport, and therefore I'm excluded from it. Actually you could argue all organizations on campus inherently do exclude people. But they each do serve the students who want to be a part of that, and you know what I don't mind paying a part of my tuition that goes to their activities when I know a part of it is going to mine.

[SunWuKong]

Again, I am only talking about my own experiences at the University of Maryland.

oh i was not doubting the validity of your experience. you didn't think i was, did you? if those clubs at U of M are really as exclusive and as pointless as you say, i definitely agree with you that the school shouldn't be sponsoring them.

[SunWuKong]

I cannot agree in the least. Actually most Whites I know will not hesitate to say their ethnic background. Some don't even know where to find their ancestors' homeland on a map, but they'd gladly say that they are that whatever ethnicity.

A handful will not, but would rather say, "I'm American," however I find that an overwhelming majority do have a sense of their ethncity or ethnicities other than American.

This is even something joked about by some people in other countries.

knowing that they have a dab of German here and a touch of Irish there doesn't exactly mean that they have a sense of their ethnicity. or maybe i should clarify - most white Americans don't self identify with anything ethnically based. again, saying that they have some remote German or Irish great great parent that they've never met doesn't count, when there's absolutely nothing German or Irish about them or their upbringing.

[BeTheReds]

however, i do understand that many members of these clubs don't exactly need any further reinforcement on their sense of identity, and that they just get together to party - much like they'd do anyway even if the club didn't exist.

Right, so why does my money need to go to that club?

[nonamerasian]

how would you feel if you could never feel a sense of pride for your heritage in this country because you're white.. and automatically, you'd be labeled racist.

Many Whites have pride in their heritage and aren't labelled as racist. Otherwise almost everyone at the St. Patrick's Day parades would be called racist.

Oktoberfest=Racist?

Greek festivals? Racist as well?

Give me a break! Many Whites openly display their pride and aren't called racists.

try putting yourself in the shoes of a white individual where you have to live with many people's predispositions against you because you're white. you get upset at someone and yell at them, but you're "racist" because they're ________.

The same happens to minorities.

put yourselves in the shoes of a white individual always wondering if you really got that job or got into that school because you earned it and deserved it or if it was because of the color of your skin.

Or, a minority wondering if they did or didn't receive the job due to stereotypes. Wondering if they didn't get the job because their looks are considered "unprofessional." Wondering if everyone is assuming they received the position due to A.A.

or what's more.. put yourself in the shoes of a "white" person whose only label in society can be as such.. never really being able to call themselves french-american or german-american

Or a Black person whose only label is "African-American," regardless of whether they are or not.

I've never witnessed a White person given heat for calling themselves whatever hyphen American, or even omitting the hyphen and saying, "I'm Irish." When it comes to some minorities on the otherhand, that isn't always the case.

think how you'd feel being a young white american in today's society blamed for the reprecussions of slavery, something you had nothing to do with. blamed for the reprecussions of japanese internment, something you had nothing to do with. blamed for the takeover of native american land and even hawai'i's aboriginal people.. again, something you had nothing to do with. if you don't think this happens, you're kidding yourself. i see it happen all the time.

I have to agree that I've seen that happen.

But what I've been receiving a lot also is people thinking any criticism on the country leads to slavery or wanting reprecussions without really paying attention to what is being said.

i know some are sitting there thinking, "big fuckin' whoopdeedoo. boo hoo.. poor white person." but i'm just saying. everyone seems to think that whites have it "easy" in today's world and i have stepped back and seen many of the things they go through as well. i don't like the double standard and i think it's a bit ethnocentric of many people to sit there and make it out like they're the only ones that have to go through shit.

I fully agree with the last sentence, but I also believe that for many discriminations an average White person will go through in life, an average minority may go through the same, an equivalent, and more.

I would like to add though, I do believe Whites should have a forum to discuss what they face, particularly with other members of the U.S. Many who may not be aware or have been too ethnocentric to listen to the issues beforehand.

[BeTheReds]

State universities exist to serve the needs and wants of the students, and students do want ethnic and/or religious clubs to serve their interests. I could argue that the university should not fund certain sports because I inherently don't have the ability to be in that sport, and therefore I'm excluded from it. Actually you could argue all organizations on campus inherently do exclude people. But they each do serve the students who want to be a part of that, and you know what I don't mind paying a part of my tuition that goes to their activities when I know a part of it is going to mine.


Well then if that's the case, stop bitching when a white person wants to make an ethnic club too. (I know you were not bitching about it, but other people were...)

[AngryABCGirl]

Well then if that's the case, stop bitching when a white person wants to make an ethnic club too. (I know you were not bitching about it, but other people were...)

Actually, I would support it if people wanted to have a white people club if it was what that girl wanted and wasn't a group of angry hateful people or anything.

[achtungbaby]

Who are "you guys".You and hapakristina. I only say, "You guys" because I assumed you both knew each other and because you're both completely missing the point of my comments. Part of that is my fault, I think, because I can be a very lazy communicator.

Point #1: There are no publicly-funded schools that permit discrimination based on race. Title VI prohibits against this.

Point #2: Since students cannot be excluded from participation in the "programs or activities" of a school on the basis of race, it is safe to conclude that such groups associate on the basis of interest -- such as chess.

[nonamerasian]

knowing that they have a dab of German here and a touch of Irish there doesn't exactly mean that they have a sense of their ethnicity. or maybe i should clarify - most white Americans don't self identify with anything ethnically based. again, saying that they have some remote German or Irish great great parent that they've never met doesn't count, when there's absolutely nothing German or Irish about them or their upbringing.

That is actually a part of the "joke" when some foreigners laugh at Americans on this issue.

Many people who know nothing about their ethnic backgrounds many times do have that ethnic identity.

No, they may not know anything about their ethnicity's history or culture, but it remains a part of their identity nevertheless.

[SunWuKong]

Right, so why does my money need to go to that club?

yeah, to be honest, you're preaching to the choir. i thought the ASA at my school was just a bunch of cliquey Asian kids who don't know shit about their cultures wanting to get drunk together. however, i don't want these clubs abolished. i'd rather see them reform and do something more substantial and meaningful. the only Asian club i joined was ARCC (Awareness of Roots in Chinese Culture). it was actually formed by people who felt the same way i did about the ASA, and it actually did more than organise parties.

and about your money going where you don't want it. come on now, most schools spend their student activities money on the most bullshit of things. sort of like that 3-D porn movie they actually showed once as their weekly friday night movie on campus at my school.



... ok fine, it was a good movie and i'm glad they showed it.

[achtungbaby]

Right, so why does my money need to go to that club?Your money goes to that club because my money has to go to the chess club.

[SunWuKong]

No, they may not know anything about their ethnicity's history or culture, but it remains a part of their identity nevertheless.

i think we'll just have to agree to disagree. i think most of them don't identify with anything European.

[BeTheReds]

You and hapakristina. I only say, "You guys" because I assumed you both knew each other and because you're both completely missing the point of my comments. Part of that is my fault, I think, because I can be a very lazy communicator.

Point #1: There are no publicly-funded schools that permit discrimination based on race. Title VI prohibits against this.

Point #2: Since students cannot be excluded from participation in the "programs or activities" of a school on the basis of race, it is safe to conclude that such groups associate on the basis of interest -- such as chess.


Point #2: Precisely why on paper every club has to allow anyone from any race to join it. You can write as many rules and regulations as you want. It still doesn't take away from the general exclusiveness and anti-white hatred which I witnessed in UMCP's Asian American Student Union.

[BeTheReds]

Your money goes to that club because my money has to go to the chess club.


The chess club doesn't get money. They just play chess.

[hapakristina]

Point #2: Precisely why on paper every club has to allow anyone from any race to join it. You can write as many rules and regulations as you want. It still doesn't take away from the general exclusiveness and anti-white hatred which I witnessed in UMCP's Asian American Student Union.

i agree. i don't think we were talking about the actual/physical excluding of someone based on race. hence the word i added before "excluding" which was "INHERENTLY." it's the exclusiveness that automatically happens to non-asians for an asian club, non-blacks for a black student union, etc.

[hapakristina]

btw.. can't respond long on this.. but many people have been commenting about my remarks about caucasians not being able to say ______-american. i didn't mean it in the sense that they can't say it because they'll be hated on or discriminated against. i meant it in the sense that most caucasians aren't able to because they're so mixed culturally with the european backgrounds or may be afflicted when it comes to such a term because much how many black people take on calling themselves "african"-american.. when their culture and heritage really has nothing to do with african culture from africa.. i dunno. does that make more sense in what i was trying to say? :huh:

[achtungbaby]

Point #2: Precisely why on paper every club has to allow anyone from any race to join it. You can write as many rules and regulations as you want.Paper can be powerful. Ever read the paper used to create the opinion for Brown v. Board of Education?

It still doesn't take away from the general exclusiveness and anti-white hatred which I witnessed in UMCP's Asian American Student Union.Just out of curiousity -- how did you "witness" this anti-white hate?

[achtungbaby]

it's the exclusiveness that automatically happens to non-asians for an asian club, non-blacks for a black student union, etc.Why is this a bad thing? Do you want to have membership in every club?

[achtungbaby]

The chess club doesn't get money. They just play chess.Who pays for their pieces?!?

[>:^|]

I don't find it particularly surprising that a 15-year-old didn't understand the ramifications of a decision to form a Caucasian club. My first thought was that her parents and other influential adults had a responsibility to try to explain to her some of the history of race relations in this country--until I realized that they too may be completely ignorant.

Sometimes I feel like this sort of thinking--"they have theirs so why can't I have mine?"--is a backlash against the affirmation of other groups' attempts at empowerment.

The group founder stated that all groups would be welcome and that one of the objectives would be to talk about race. If that is the case, why not name the group accordingly? What is the meaning behind naming the group the "Caucasian Club"?

I think that a group that is in the majority often has a sudden feeling of displacement when it becomes clear that they are sometimes excluded. While people of color are used to being excluded, Whites typically react with outrage, surprise, etc.

This may be true of all majority groups. I am on a large listserve where the majority is White heterosexual, and I am very aware of these demographics by the way people communicate. When the formation of a subgroup for gays and lesbians was announced, people reacted with a great deal of anger and hostility. One common response was for people to yell "Discrimination!" And I am on a subgroup listserve for people of color. Whites routinely want to join. They say that they want to learn about us, or that we are discriminating against them, or that fairness dictates that we allow them to join ... or sometimes, even, that they have a great deal to offer us and that they would enrich our membership (!). And they argue that since the main list is open to everybody, so should our list.

Sometimes, however, you just want to be in a place where you don't have to explain yourself every moment. Where you feel like an actor instead of an object.

And I'm really curious about why people who feel ethnic-specific groups are harmful would hang around a place called yellowworld.

[hapakristina]

And I'm really curious about why people who feel ethnic-specific groups are harmful would hang around a place called yellowworld.

never said they were harmful. i just don't see why there needs to be a double standard against whites. why should only minorities be able to start something?

[>:^|]

So why don't you go to the Whiteworld site?

[TTChino]

Choosing which places you want to frequent is different then having the belief as to whether certain places should be allowed to exist. If whiteworld was built on the same premise that yellowworld is built on, then I would think noone would have any objections to the site(except perhaps it's tacky name). Would I choose to frequent white world tho? Not particularly. Since I have no interest in that particular topic.

[kitty]

I agree with a bunch of people but >:^| said it last... this is basically a knee jerk reaction by people who feel excluded by other cultural groups and want to have one of their own (i.e. the 15 year old girl).

I think she had little basis for a club. Her basic rationale was "It's a club that will focus on European culture, history and heritage". Well, it's not as if European history or culture has been ignored in modern American education systems -- Black history is covered in the shortest month of the year and if Asian American history is covered, chances are its during finals week in the month of may. I doubt during Latino heritage month, Latino history is actually taught, and do Native Americans even have a month?

Basically, for 90% of the time students are in class, they are learning about white people's history, either American or European.

But if the girl wants to start a club, she has the right to, and I think the minority groups that got on her case were somewhat unjustified. Her group didn't exclude anybody and it wasn't about white supremacy. I think the only 'crime' she committed was in the name of the group -- she could have given it a better, more explicit name (since White Club does sound like a junior branch of the KKK).

As far as what HapaKristina was waxing philosophical about -- reality is no Neverland. Whites cry bitter tears about reverse racism, but frankly, there are far too many privileges that whites get in this society for the anger of minority communities to really make a dent. Many think we live in a PC world, but we're not all that forward thinking. 9/11 was only two years ago and still many people completely supported racial profiling, and even canvassed for the same kind of race-based internment camps as in WWII.

And the reason why whites aren't really being victimized here is because they really *could* have interned Arab Americans. They, among all the racial groups in America, have that power. It's called white privilege.

Sure whites alive nowadays didn't commit slavery or massacre the Native American population. But for most, their ancestors did, and now they are reaping the benefits of those atrocities. So while you may not be guilty, do you feel like those crimes should go unrecognized?

You can argue a sob story for the Caucasians, and some of them may be hardships, but when you consider the sheer number of whites who enjoy the benefits of being an 'old boy' or who are otherwise economically/societally benefitted from being the dominant race, I really don't think they can consider themselve victims.

[TTChino]

First of all, we learn about "white people history" because of the country we live in. I'm not saying I agree or sympathize with white people tears. Honestly, I'm too aloof to really care about the struggles of a majority race. I do find it strange tho, that on a site that promotes diversity and cultural understanding, we can have people in favor of a cultural club of one culture. But not a cultural club of another. Regardless if it's white, black, brown, purple, yellow, or green. The fact that the club is not racially exclusive, and doesn't exist for the purpose of white supremacy, should mean we, as a tolerant, open minded, politically conscious group, should allow for its existence.

[hapakristina]

So why don't you go to the Whiteworld site?

i have no interest in a "whiteworld" site. just because i am sticking up for something i see "right", and that is not necessarily popular.. doesn't mean that i'm hating on this site. you don't have to agree with me, but i am entitled to my opinion.

btw, thanks for the fuckin welcome. geez. :dry:

[SunWuKong]

Point #2: Precisely why on paper every club has to allow anyone from any race to join it. You can write as many rules and regulations as you want. It still doesn't take away from the general exclusiveness and anti-white hatred which I witnessed in UMCP's Asian American Student Union.

i agree. i don't think we were talking about the actual/physical excluding of someone based on race. hence the word i added before "excluding" which was "INHERENTLY." it's the exclusiveness that automatically happens to non-asians for an asian club, non-blacks for a black student union, etc.

i think this really depends on the particular clubs themselves, and how their members run them. because by your definition, a Caucasian club would naturally "inherently" serve to exclude all non-white people, even if it doesn't do so on paper, and is just as malacious as you think that race/ethnic clubs are. not all race/ethnic clubs are like this. many manage to include without excluding.

[hapakristina]

As far as what HapaKristina was waxing philosophical about -- reality is no Neverland. Whites cry bitter tears about reverse racism, but frankly, there are far too many privileges that whites get in this society for the anger of minority communities to really make a dent. Many think we live in a PC world, but we're not all that forward thinking. 9/11 was only two years ago and still many people completely supported racial profiling, and even canvassed for the same kind of race-based internment camps as in WWII.

And the reason why whites aren't really being victimized here is because they really *could* have interned Arab Americans. They, among all the racial groups in America, have that power. It's called white privilege.

Sure whites alive nowadays didn't commit slavery or massacre the Native American population. But for most, their ancestors did, and now they are reaping the benefits of those atrocities. So while you may not be guilty, do you feel like those crimes should go unrecognized?

You can argue a sob story for the Caucasians, and some of them may be hardships, but when you consider the sheer number of whites who enjoy the benefits of being an 'old boy' or who are otherwise economically/societally benefitted from being the dominant race, I really don't think they can consider themselve victims.

again, i am sick and tired of the "victim role" everywhere. my point about the things that whites go through is simply to show how so many people are ethnocentric and wouldn't have a clue about what it's like to be white for one major reason. they're not. yes, maybe they reap benefits for being white in this country. is it their fault they were born white? did they have any say so in the matter? no. so i treat them as equal human beings deserving of the same rights and opportunities as everyone else.

also, i think it's a bit presumptuous of you to assume that whites should suffer the reprecussions of "their" ancestors. first of all, not all whites ancestors were even directly related to some of those events. and if they were.. who gives a shit?! c'mon now.. japan did some pretty fucked up shit to koreans and chinese. should i suffer the anger, resentment, racism, and blame for something my ancestors did? i sure as hell hope not. i didn't do anything and i certainly don't agree with the things they've done. you can't possibly blame people of an entire race TODAY for something their ignorant ancestors of that day and age did back then.

again, i knew my opinion that whites are deserving of such opportunities as minorities wasn't going to get taken well. however, that's what i think and how i feel. i'm all about "equality" for all.. based on the fact that we're human beings. people shrug off this idea of "reverse racism" but immediately jump when the racism is against themselves. i see asians wearing and laughing at shirts that say, "once you go asian, you'll never go caucasian." but then if a white dude was wearing a shirt that said, "the only difference between an asian and a caucasian, is the cauc." fuckin WWIII would break out with every asian civil rights activist beating on someone's door. racism is racism. there is no such thing as reverse racism, as that would suggest that whites are the only ones that are racist to begin with. it happens to people of all backgrounds and to discredit the racism that whites go through simply because they're the majority, to me just shows how closed-minded some people can be.

[>:^|]

Choosing which places you want to frequent is different then having the belief as to whether certain places should be allowed to exist. If whiteworld was built on the same premise that yellowworld is built on, then I would think noone would have any objections to the site(except perhaps it's tacky name). Would I choose to frequent white world tho? Not particularly. Since I have no interest in that particular topic.

Yeah, what would Whiteworld be about anyway? Wonder bread and mayo? :laugh: It's been my general experience (based on my intimate knowledge of White people) that they simply don't think about their race.

So what would the premise of Whiteworld be? Empowerment? Inclusion? Seems to me White folks already have that most of the time. Why are there Women's, African American, Asian American, First Nations, Gay and Lesbian, etc., etc. sections in the bookstores? Is it largely because we don't particularly need to pay any special attention to White Male literature?

I also think the concept of "fairness" is more difficult than "you got one, I get one too." That would be equitable if everybody already had one to begin with.

And just to explicitly state this ... I don't particularly care if some 15-year-old girl chooses to start a Caucasian Club. But I think that it is naive, perhaps even disingenuous, to suddenly shriek that you are now the victim of all those big meanies.

To McClelland, who is of Scottish, German, American Indian, Latino and Irish descent, the racial tensions of the past, she has said, "belong in the past."

This to me demonstrates an ignorance of racial issues in this country which I often attribute to lack of exposure and youth. It also represents a belief that saying so can make it so. I see this kind of youthful naievete sometimes on this board too (with some great exceptions). Various studies show that high school students of all colors typically believe that racial issues are not large problems. But people of color usually lose this viewpoint by the time they have been in the workforce for a while.

[SunWuKong]

firstly, great post, kitty. i agree with most of it. and to elaborate...

I agree with a bunch of people but >:^| said it last... this is basically a knee jerk reaction by people who feel excluded by other cultural groups and want to have one of their own (i.e. the 15 year old girl).

I think she had little basis for a club. Her basic rationale was "It's a club that will focus on European culture, history and heritage". Well, it's not as if European history or culture has been ignored in modern American education systems -- Black history is covered in the shortest month of the year and if Asian American history is covered, chances are its during finals week in the month of may. I doubt during Latino heritage month, Latino history is actually taught, and do Native Americans even have a month?

Basically, for 90% of the time students are in class, they are learning about white people's history, either American or European.

But if the girl wants to start a club, she has the right to, and I think the minority groups that got on her case were somewhat unjustified. Her group didn't exclude anybody and it wasn't about white supremacy. I think the only 'crime' she committed was in the name of the group -- she could have given it a better, more explicit name (since White Club does sound like a junior branch of the KKK).

right, i think she has every right to start this group and the people who were giving her shit about it had little basis to protest without double standardising. however, i am curious as to what exactly this club would do. white American culture is already covered by, well, everyday life and mainstream media. and if they cover European culture, and them having pretty much no tie to European heritage or identity, it would pretty much end up being a European Interest Club or something.

but i don't see anything wrong with the name of the club and it seems really stupid to me that NAACP complained about it. i suppose it would be more diplomatic of her if she named it European American Club or something.

As far as what HapaKristina was waxing philosophical about -- reality is no Neverland. Whites cry bitter tears about reverse racism, but frankly, there are far too many privileges that whites get in this society for the anger of minority communities to really make a dent. Many think we live in a PC world, but we're not all that forward thinking. 9/11 was only two years ago and still many people completely supported racial profiling, and even canvassed for the same kind of race-based internment camps as in WWII.

And the reason why whites aren't really being victimized here is because they really *could* have interned Arab Americans. They, among all the racial groups in America, have that power. It's called white privilege.

agreed. it's all perspective. everyone suffers some sort of discrimination, but considering how much more discrimination minorities face than whites do, i really want to say "cry me a river".

Sure whites alive nowadays didn't commit slavery or massacre the Native American population. But for most, their ancestors did, and now they are reaping the benefits of those atrocities. So while you may not be guilty, do you feel like those crimes should go unrecognized?

this point is arguable though. remember, plenty of white American families immigrated to the US after slavery was abolished. and i'd argue that most white American families did not have slave-owning ancestors. inheriting the crimes of your forefathers - sure. but guilty by race - i don't agree with that, even despite the existence of white privilege.

[>:^|]

i have no interest in a "whiteworld" site. just because i am sticking up for something i see "right", and that is not necessarily popular.. doesn't mean that i'm hating on this site. you don't have to agree with me, but i am entitled to my opinion.

btw, thanks for the fuckin welcome. geez. :dry:

Sorry, I didn't mean why don't you leave here and go there?
I meant what would be the motivating factor for going to a Whiteworld site? Why isn't it interesting? What would Whiteworld be about?

Didja feel unincluded? Didja feel unwelcome? :glare:
(Besides, I don't give the fuckin' welcome. That's SWK's job.)

Edited to add a funny at the end.

[TTChino]

My point really is, I wouldn't necessarily support a white club. But, I wouldn't be hypocritical and protest one either. As long as they're for anything but racism, exclusion, etc... I think it's hypocritical to deny anyone else that opportunity. I wouldn't support one, but nor would I deny it.

They can talk about whatever they want(mayo, wonder bread, whole wheat) long as it's not at the detriment of another group or at the exclusion of anyone else. Looking at what the premise of that 15 year old girl's "caucasian club" was, I don't think I would be against it. Would there ever be a white club formed that would be conform to those ideal standards? I doubt it, but I'm not going to turn into a whiny activist and protest anything that celebrates "white or european" culture.

[SunWuKong]

ok, so let me play the little diplomat here for a minute.

it seems to me that there are those who support the existence and validity of having ethnic-based clubs, and those who think that they only serve to exclude.

i feel that you've been basically talking about two different groups of people. we can't possibly expect every college club across the country to be ran the same way. some are bound to be ran by ethnocentric asswipes and some are bound to have good intentions and fully exploit the positive potential of ethnic-based clubs. within one school itself we may see the polarity of interests displayed by different ethnic-based clubs. my own school is one example. when i was there, there were ethnic-based clubs that didn't do much but party, get drunk, and stick up a prominent middle finger to people not of the same race/ethnicity. and there were ethnic-based clubs that were inclusive, explored culture, and stood for empowerment.

so let's give each other the benefit of the doubt of their own personal experiences with these clubs.

[nonamerasian]

btw.. can't respond long on this.. but many people have been commenting about my remarks about caucasians not being able to say ______-american. i didn't mean it in the sense that they can't say it because they'll be hated on or discriminated against. i meant it in the sense that most caucasians aren't able to because they're so mixed culturally with the european backgrounds or may be afflicted when it comes to such a term because much how many black people take on calling themselves "african"-american.. when their culture and heritage really has nothing to do with african culture from africa.. i dunno. does that make more sense in what i was trying to say? :huh:

That hasn't been my experience on this issue at all. Actually, I can more often point out Whites who will list the ethnic mix of themselves to the nearest 10th than who can't name any due to being "mixed culturally."

A group where that doesn't hold true is for most Blacks in this hemisphere. In this country, that is what lead to the "African-American" label.

While others get to say I'm 50% German, 10% Celtic Irish, and 40% Italian, most African-Americans can't say I'm 50% Hausa, 10% Yoruba, and 40% Mandinga, hense the embrace of the term "African-American." A term adopted to refer to the African-American culture and the African-American people.

I'm still not getting what you are saying.

[Blue dice]

again, i knew my opinion that whites are deserving of such opportunities as minorities wasn't going to get taken well. however, that's what i think and how i feel. i'm all about "equality" for all.. based on the fact that we're human beings. people shrug off this idea of "reverse racism" but immediately jump when the racism is against themselves. i see asians wearing and laughing at shirts that say, "once you go asian, you'll never go caucasian." but then if a white dude was wearing a shirt that said, "the only difference between an asian and a caucasian, is the cauc." fuckin WWIII would break out with every asian civil rights activist beating on someone's door. racism is racism. there is no such thing as reverse racism, as that would suggest that whites are the only ones that are racist to begin with. it happens to people of all backgrounds and to discredit the racism that whites go through simply because they're the majority, to me just shows how closed-minded some people can be.
While we all enjoy your white apologist antics you're missing the bigger picture. Those ethnic groups are formed because oftentimes _X_ minority doesn't have any representation or political power in American society. If you're a lone asian, black, or hispanic it's much easier to get discriminated against and discarded because you have no voice in society. I don't see the same issues with being white because um face it there is no lack of white representation in media, political power, or anything else in American culture. Thus, the whole purpose of a "caucasian" club is completely moot. I don't see any purpose because white people have plenty of representation in society. It's like forming a "chinese" club in China, it makes no fucking sense. In a way it's almost a harmful asinine parody of those ethnic minorities that _need_ those groups to survive sometimes.

I'm all for equality too but America isn't equal nor has it ever been. It wasn't really founded on the principles of equality. The whole concept of equality is something that is rather recent in American society.

[achtungbaby]

ok, so let me play the little diplomat here for a minute.

it seems to me that there are those who support the existence and validity of having ethnic-based clubs, and those who think that they only serve to exclude.

i feel that you've been basically talking about two different groups of people. we can't possibly expect every college club across the country to be ran the same way. some are bound to be ran by ethnocentric asswipes and some are bound to have good intentions and fully exploit the positive potential of ethnic-based clubs. within one school itself we may see the polarity of interests displayed by different ethnic-based clubs. my own school is one example. when i was there, there were ethnic-based clubs that didn't do much but party, get drunk, and stick up a prominent middle finger to people not of the same race/ethnicity. and there were ethnic-based clubs that were inclusive, explored culture, and stood for empowerment.

so let's give each other the benefit of the doubt of their own personal experiences with these clubs.That's great. Agreed. But superceding even that principle, I think, is the one called respect. It means respecting their perspective.

[kitty]

this point is arguable though. remember, plenty of white American families immigrated to the US after slavery was abolished. and i'd argue that most white American families did not have slave-owning ancestors. inheriting the crimes of your forefathers - sure. but guilty by race - i don't agree with that, even despite the existence of white privilege.

Thanks SWK :) Here's my little response to this thing, more just as a general clarification than an argument.

Ok, regardless of the statistic of people who are ancestors of slaveowners and pilgrims, *all* whites are benefitting from those events. That doesn't mean we should go out and punch 5 white people a day until we knock 'em all out (put 'em out!!!!!! obscure Chris Rock reference, a big kiss to whomever can identify it), but we can't just forget that whites are privileged. That's all I'm saying -- recognize that they are benefitting.

If you entered into this country yesterday, you still have a leg up on most people of colour if you're a white man by today's American standard.

[hapakristina]

My point really is, I wouldn't necessarily support a white club. But, I wouldn't be hypocritical and protest one either. As long as they're for anything but racism, exclusion, etc... I think it's hypocritical to deny anyone else that opportunity. I wouldn't support one, but nor would I deny it.

They can talk about whatever they want(mayo, wonder bread, whole wheat) long as it's not at the detriment of another group or at the exclusion of anyone else. Looking at what the premise of that 15 year old girl's "caucasian club" was, I don't think I would be against it. Would there ever be a white club formed that would be conform to those ideal standards? I doubt it, but I'm not going to turn into a whiny activist and protest anything that celebrates "white or european" culture.

i think you've hit exactly my point. while i agree with people that there may not be much of a "point" to the formation of a caucasian club in today's society, i don't think the formation of one should be prohibited. that's why i said earlier that if you're going to exclude one group then exclude them all. ethnic clubs are great for some reasons and on the other hand, they also help continue to perpetuate society's insistence on the separation of the masses by race. it perpetuates society's refusal to look at people as fellow man, but white man, black man, asian man, hispanic man, etc.

also, i don't think a caucasian club is like forming a chinese club in china. despite whites making up the majority in america, it's not like the ethnic and racial background of americans is officially stated to be caucasian either. in china, chinese people very much so make up not only a majority but basically a totality in that country. america is one of the few countries that has as much diversity as it does, despite still carrying a white majority so i don't see the formation of a caucasian club in america being equivalent to a german club in germany or a chinese club in china, etc. another thing, whites may be the majority in society but in some areas they're the minority. can whites from areas where whites are very scarce form a caucasian club for the "minority whites" in the area? i'd see a greater purpose at that point, wouldn't you?

anyhow, i think we're beating a dead horse here. it's something i feel strongly about and i can be labeled a "self-hater" or someone incapable of understanding because i'm mixed and not quite a minority or someone dishing out "white apologist antics".. but this is how i honestly feel about the situation. i attend pepperdine university which is probably about 60% upper to middle class caucasian. i am definitely the minority here and if someone on this campus wanted to start a european club or a caucasian club.. i could really care less. as long as the formation of a club isn't to promote hate against any other group of people, i really don't care what anyone else does. for some people of caucasian background, they may want to join for the sake of joining and for some they may have no interest (as what happens with other ethnic clubs). whatever floats your boat, ya know.. if it doesn't affect me or anyone else, then i don't see anything wrong with it.

[pfc beansprout]

errr...sorry i missed out on this thread-now it's bout to hit page 7...

anyhow, i know i'm bout to add some fuel in the fire by some, but just my two cents; i honestly believe any "reverse discrimination" or discriminating against white folks is...hate to say it, fine. hey, they been bending over minorities for centuries now, i'm sorry, get in while u fit in. sorry, i ain't got no sympathy when shit gets turned on them....just my two pennies, thank u for your time.... :scatter:

[nonamerasian]

errr...sorry i missed out on this thread-now it's bout to hit page 7...

anyhow, i know i'm bout to add some fuel in the fire by some, but just my two cents; i honestly believe any "reverse discrimination" or discriminating against white folks is...hate to say it, fine. hey, they been bending over minorities for centuries now, i'm sorry, get in while u fit in. sorry, i ain't got no sympathy when shit gets turned on them....just my two pennies, thank u for your time.... :scatter:

Are you serious? I couldn't agree in the least.

Not every White person has blood on their hands or hate in their heads.

Saying it is okay to be racist against them is just wrong.

[ChinaLama]

i don't agree w/ reverse discrimination, either.

[hapakristina]

errr...sorry i missed out on this thread-now it's bout to hit page 7...

anyhow, i know i'm bout to add some fuel in the fire by some, but just my two cents; i honestly believe any "reverse discrimination" or discriminating against white folks is...hate to say it, fine. hey, they been bending over minorities for centuries now, i'm sorry, get in while u fit in. sorry, i ain't got no sympathy when shit gets turned on them....just my two pennies, thank u for your time.... :scatter:

haha.. you sure did! :p

anyhow, i don't see how you can approve of racism. if you're going to approve of racism towards whites than any racism that you experience is justified as well, right? no. of course not. and if that was the case, then hell.. everyone should just start dishing out the racism towards everyone cause it doesn't matter anymore. :rolleyes: to say that all whites deserve racism simply because they're white is bothersome. it's kind of disheartening and it makes me less sympathetic to minorities that start playing the victim card. not all whites are racist. it's this predisposition towards whites that i talked about earlier. it's wrong! and as i've said numerous times, it's not a white individual's choice or fault that society has this positive biased towards them. how many times do i hear asians tell me about how they're not accepted and are racially discriminated against (happened in this very thread)..? then, it's "okay" to turn around and do the same to others? you'd think coming from a minority group there'd be a greater acceptance and understanding of all merely because that's why so many minorities are asking from others. acceptance.

i don't think whites have been bending over minorities and nor do i think it's been intentional on many people's parts. sure, i'm certain there are people that have used that to their advantage. if you go to asia, do you think that whites just throw their weight around? they may try, but does it get them anywhere? i don't think so. chinese have the advantage in china. does that mean that chinese people are bending over whites for their own benefit? of course not! unfortunately everyone can be a bit ethnocentric and show a bit of favoritism towards people of similar background. hence, japanese would be favored in japan. koreans favored in korea. germans favored in germany. irish favored in ireland. etc.. caucasians are the majority in this country and unfortunately because of that, despite this country belonging to a multitidue of people with varying ethnic backgrounds.. they still have the upper hand. however, we can't expect change to occur so suddenly either. the paradigm is switching.. both racially and gender-based. we're starting to see more and more members of minority groups and women holding positions of power and status in society. just because it's not making a full 180 degree turnaround doesn't mean that it's not happening at all.

racism is wrong on all levels to me. it's what perpetuates hate in this society and if you're going to be ignorant enough to say that a certain group "deserves" to be dished it.. then i don't want to hear any complaining when you experience it either. if you can't take it yourself, then don't dish it either.

[yangbahn50]

NAACP whines and cries about almost anything that they sense as offensive.

I don't think establishing a Caucasian club is racist. Although whites are the majority in the US, starting up a Caucasian club is not like esablishing a KKK.

I wonder if the club would have not received national media attention if the girls named the club something else.

It's too bad that the media has portrayed this in a bad fashion...hence tainting the girl's reputation...and having her go through all the pain and suffering of transferring to another high school.

I guess many people find the "Caucasian Club" to be offensive, because like I said, they constitute the majority of the US.

[kimpossible]

errr...sorry i missed out on this thread-now it's bout to hit page 7...

anyhow, i know i'm bout to add some fuel in the fire by some, but just my two cents; i honestly believe any "reverse discrimination" or discriminating against white folks is...hate to say it, fine. hey, they been bending over minorities for centuries now, i'm sorry, get in while u fit in. sorry, i ain't got no sympathy when shit gets turned on them....just my two pennies, thank u for your time.... :scatter:

Thanks. Here's some fuel back:

What if the white man in question was discriminated against because of his nationality (an immigrant), sexual orientation, religious beliefs? Or what if the white male is the main bread winner of a household where the rest are minority women? What if it's a white woman the discrimination has more to do with sexism than racism?

[nonamerasian]

NAACP whines and cries about almost anything that they sense as offensive.

I don't think establishing a Caucasian club is racist. Although whites are the majority in the US, starting up a Caucasian club is not like esablishing a KKK.

I wonder if the club would have not received national media attention if the girls named the club something else.

It's too bad that the media has portrayed this in a bad fashion...hence tainting the girl's reputation...and having her go through all the pain and suffering of transferring to another high school.

I guess many people find the "Caucasian Club" to be offensive, because like I said, they constitute the majority of the US.

I don't think it is the media to blame, but rather some members of her community and the faculty at her school.

The media has actually done a pretty good job of laying out the student's position.

Not only would a different name perhaps have had a different effect when it comes to some peoples' views, but I bet that in some areas, it probably wouldn't have hit the headlines, positively or not.

I could picture this type of club in my old high school. I'd be shocked if someone in my school would have caught as much heat as this student.

[>:^|]

I don't think it is the media to blame, but rather some members of her community and the faculty at her school.


Face it, it's a sensational story and it taps into a lot of resentment felt by Whites. I think the media is as guilty as is the kid, her parents, her community and the school. By the way, Darnell Turner has stated that he was speaking as an individual and not as a representative of the NAACP. He's the vice president of a local NAACP group. I haven't found any direct quotes in which he suggested the student was a racist, despite the sensational headlines. And the whole organization has not embraced his stance.

Freedom High's student population is composed of about 63 percent whites, 26 percent Latinos and 4 percent African Americans, along with small percentages of Filipinos, American Indians and Pacific Islanders. The school has had a couple of incidents involving a noose on an African American teacher's door, a noose hanging in a tree, swastikas and hate literature. Turner was, in part, addressing some of these incidents in his remarks.

Frankly, the more I read about this incident, the more I think this kid and her mother are as dumb as sticks. Either that, or they wanted this kind of attention. Because I really find it hard to believe that nobody would have mentioned the implications of the club name before this story broke.

Edited to add factual stuff that I forgot the first time. I'm wondering how that remaining 7 percent breaks down.

[nonamerasian]

I thought he was saying the media was painting a girl as a racist or something, which is why I said I don't think the media is to blame.

I wasn’t saying the media didn’t sensationalize the story. I just haven't seen them paint the student as a racist.

[SunWuKong]

also, i don't think a caucasian club is like forming a chinese club in china. despite whites making up the majority in america, it's not like the ethnic and racial background of americans is officially stated to be caucasian either.

this is pretty much like how ethnic clubs in college campuses operate though. the ethnic and racial background of Americans is not officially stated to be Caucasian, but the reality is that the official race is white. most Americans will point to a white guy as the poster representation of an American, and most foreigners recognise a white guy as what an American is supposed to be.

[SunWuKong]

i don't think whites have been bending over minorities and nor do i think it's been intentional on many people's parts. sure, i'm certain there are people that have used that to their advantage.

i think you may be giving whites too much credit. i agree that most of them have no malacious intent, but make no mistake that whites will generally be more accepting of other whites in their social, political, and economic circles. and since whites hold most of the power in the US, this naturally is "bending over minorities".

you may try to refute this but remember that minorities are, if not at least a slight bit, then generally, culturally different from whites. even an Asian person who grew up all around whites may be discriminated against from time to time due to the colour of his/her skin only. imagine what it would be like for someone who is fobby - someone who's lifestyle is totally foreign to that of the average white American.

i'm not against white people starting "white clubs" as long as they don't stand for racism and hatred. but make no mistake about it, there is a very big difference between starting a club for the ethnic majority and starting a club for an ethnic minority.

if you go to asia, do you think that whites just throw their weight around? they may try, but does it get them anywhere? i don't think so. chinese have the advantage in china. does that mean that chinese people are bending over whites for their own benefit? of course not! unfortunately everyone can be a bit ethnocentric and show a bit of favoritism towards people of similar background. hence, japanese would be favored in japan. koreans favored in korea. germans favored in germany. irish favored in ireland. etc.. caucasians are the majority in this country and unfortunately because of that, despite this country belonging to a multitidue of people with varying ethnic backgrounds.. they still have the upper hand.

wrong. dead wrong. at least about China. white people are very much so favoured in Chinese societies in Asia. but this is a different topic altogether.

[Blue dice]

i think you've hit exactly my point. while i agree with people that there may not be much of a "point" to the formation of a caucasian club in today's society, i don't think the formation of one should be prohibited.

In spirit there would be no reason to prohibit a caucasian club at all. Matter of fact that's not what most people are arguing so the whole point is a big strawman. The real argument is that such a club is pointless to begin with and you have to question the motives of someone who creates something that places all whites into a "caucasian" club. It's not like white people all share common cultures either so the only commonality would be their "whiteness" or european heritage. Well guess what, racist groups often group caucasians all into a monolithic "single" entity as well. You know why? Because it empowers them so they can discriminate against minorities easier.

also, i don't think a caucasian club is like forming a chinese club in china. despite whites making up the majority in america, it's not like the ethnic and racial background of americans is officially stated to be caucasian either.

It makes no difference whether or not it's officially stated as such. They _are_ the majority population and hold all the cards in this society. Look at which people are in the top media, political, and business positions in this society. Except for a few rare cases 9 times out of 10 they are of WASP descent.

in china, chinese people very much so make up not only a majo